The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Faith Forged in Fire
The spiritual significance of trials in the Christian life isn't often understood correctly. Many believers mistakenly interpret difficult seasons as divine punishment rather than divine preparation. This transformative conversation unveils the profound purpose behind your struggles.
When challenges arise, do you question why God allows them or can you count them as joy? James instructs us to embrace trials, knowing they produce patience, while Peter reminds us that our faith—tested by fire—becomes more precious than gold. Through powerful analogies and scriptural insights, we explore how God uses hardship not to break us but to refine us.
One participant beautifully compared the process to metalworking: "God puts us in the furnace, gets us pliable, gets us moldable. Then throws the Holy Spirit onto us so all our impurities rise up, we confess them, He removes them, and then we're ready to be molded into whatever He wants." This isn't punishment—it's preparation for glory.
The conversation highlights a crucial theological truth: Christ has already taken all punishment for believers' sins. Your trials aren't retribution but refinement. As we discuss the nature of God's "chastisement," we discover it flows from love, not anger. Looking at biblical examples like Job and Noah, we see how extraordinary patience emerges through extended testing.
Perhaps most comforting is the reminder of our secure inheritance—"incorruptible, undefiled, reserved in heaven"—with your name already on the register. This security allows you to face trials with confidence, knowing your ultimate destination is guaranteed even when the journey feels uncertain. The strongest faith emerges from the greatest tests, which explains why spiritual giants often face the most significant challenges.
Ready to transform your perspective on suffering? Listen now and discover how to find extraordinary joy in your most difficult seasons.
Man, we all have. Do we have children? Do we have? Do we try to teach them out of love? And they're like oh, I hate this, this is mean Dad, I don't like you. How many of us have went through that? But what it does. Hallelujah, man, I'm just going to leave it there that the Lord chastises whom he loves.
Speaker 2:Amen, brother, candy, I mean I'm going to go to Meg and then, candy, go ahead. Meg, you were going to say something. I saw your hand there.
Speaker 3:And so, like when you were talking about like people, like people being checked on and, you know, doing those small things that, in my opinion, are really really big things, small things that, in my opinion, are really really big things. And so you know, I think sometimes, as believers or people, when we walk into people's lives, we're walking into a chapter of somebody's life that we know nothing about. And so when we're walking into this chapter, sometimes it's just like you know what do you need? Or we don't know what people are going through. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:I think that people are so quick to inadvertently judge or look or see, but here's the thing that I've learned not to have expectations of people. I learned not to have expectations of people. I learned not to have expectations of my spouse, not to have expectations of people, and the reason is because if I don't, then I can never be let down, ever. And so, in in not having expectations of people, you're automatically at this space where you don't even. You don't even. There's nothing in return that anybody could give you. You are the person that's giving of yourself, right, right and, like in times in life, you know people need to see our lives redeemed. So they want to know who our redeemer is.
Speaker 2:I like that. I like that.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yep, I like that.
Speaker 3:Glory to God.
Speaker 2:Candy, you there, sister Candy.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts so far, sister?
Speaker 6:patience. Yes, that's. The most patient person is Jesus Christ. Amen. How long does he give us and is so patient and long suffering and waiting on us to learn the lesson from the trials? And the blessings that we experience Chastising, just like as a parent. If we don't discipline our children, what are they going to do Exactly? So, if he's not chastising, you're not a child of God. So, yeah, you should be hurt.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 6:Should be, should be, should be scared. Honestly, that's where your fear better come from.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's true, lisa.
Speaker 9:Hey everybody. So I look at it, these trials that we go through, to consider it all joy. It's. Everything that we're facing is shaping us into the image of Jesus and every time we make it through a difficult time, we have a testimony and that brings glory to God, because I know that during the times that I'm suffering, it's him I have to lean on. And I know that when and because I am where I am, having gone through the bazillion trials I've been through, I know there's light at the end of the tunnel and it grows my faith.
Speaker 9:So I think, I think I just, every time I'm in something, I try to remember that this verse, that these verses that you're you've just read, and I praise God through it and, and honestly, before you know it, he either sends a brother or sister to bring me comfort or to bring a prayer, just like you said, and it means so much even just for somebody to stand and say I don't know what to say to you, but I stand here beside you and I'm going to go through it with you. So I think you're absolutely right and, yeah, there needs to be more of that, and I'm grateful that I found the group of brothers and sisters that I because I don't think we lack in that I know, I know you've you've helped me through some. You know some things, jonathan, and just I hope, I hope all of you know, if you need prayer, if you just need to sit with somebody in quiet, I'm there.
Speaker 2:So that's a great thing, brother, jeff, jeffrey and then um candy jeff.
Speaker 4:go ahead, brother thank you, uh, good evening, jonathan, and good evening to everybody in the panel. Uh, jonathan, real quick. Before I get started with my comment, I have a quick question. Uh, that this lady joni down here at the bottom. I really liked her answer. I just wanted to ask her would you marry me? I think she did that already.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I probably did. All right, anyway, you want that? No, getting to my comment here, you talked to ask a question earlier, jonathan, about who in the Bible reminded us of patience, and it was mentioned by Meg that it was Joe. But I also got to thinking a little bit too, about Noah. Took him a hundred and twenty years to, and his family to, build the ark. You think he didn't take ridicule during that time. You think he didn't want to give up and quit when things got hard, when things got difficult, when it didn't look like they were going to get it done, but he stayed with it.
Speaker 4:But I want to go back to your point too, about your reading in James 1 too, about the trials and counting it joy. One of the things, jonathan, I've learned about the trials and the difficulties that we have in life is that we are either going into a trial or tribulation in it, or we're coming out of it and the thing just keeps going all the time. At least that's what it's been in my life. Right, it's an ongoing process. I like to call it a purification process. Right, and when I be. But before I, when I retired here several years ago from the job I had.
Speaker 4:I worked in a foundry environment working with aluminum my job was to put the aluminum in the furnace at 2 000 degrees, melt it down to about 1500 degrees and then pour it into a mold and make a cast. When we put it in there, it we go into the furnace. God puts us into the furnace, gets us ready, gets us pliable, gets us moldable. And then what we would do is we would take this snow, white powder, pure snow, throw it on top of the molten aluminum and all of the impurities would rise up, skim those off and then you would have absolutely pure aluminum ready to go into the mold to make the casting.
Speaker 1:How many?
Speaker 4:times is God like that. He puts us in a furnace, gets us ready to melt down, then throws the Holy Spirit onto onto us.
Speaker 4:All of our impurities rise up, we confess them, he removes them and then we're ready to be molded and shaped into whatever it is he wants to mold us and shape us into right, absolutely brother, christian, whatever you're going through out there tonight, just be aware of this you are being molded, you are being tested, you are being purified and God's going to pour you into a mold that's going to make something beautiful and something wonderful. Just bear with this process.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that Candy. You were going to say something else.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know. The scripture says train the child up in the way they should go and they shut up part. So of course that's what he's doing. That's what we go through. That's why we got the test.
Speaker 6:We don't have a testimony right without the testing we, we can't relate to other people, like meg said, for them to even wonder how did y'all get through it? You know, that's that's. That's what it's to me. That's what it's all about. He's training us for what's to come right, and unless we learn what we're going through the right way, the way he needs us to learn from it, we can't can't live together, right? That's the problem. That's the only way we're going to be able to do it after it anyway. And then I'll look at the scripture. That says all the characteristics and then it throws in the charity. And, above all, charity is the most important right.
Speaker 6:So what we have to give others. That's what it's about. He uses us to bless others in the process. Like you said in Scripture, he blesses us ten times more. So to say.
Speaker 10:You know.
Speaker 6:So I'm thankful for what he has allowed me to overcome from him and endure and learn to be more patient, Because you know, here's how I see some of these things.
Speaker 2:Here's how I see some of these things. It's like when you, when you, when you have, when you're going through a trial, you go through many trials. One thing that's important for us to understand, one of the things that we should understand, is this he never tells us, he never tells us how long it's going to be. He never tells us how long it's going to be. Here's what many of us always fall into the trap of when we go through a trial. We always think that there has to be an in stone expiration date. We always cry out why is this happening? Why is it happening? Why is it happening? He it happening? Why is it happening? He tells us why it's happening right here, to work patience, trying your faith, to work patience. He told us why. This is one of the reasons, and it's a big one. So when people start going oh what is me? Why is this happening to me? Why me, why is everybody this way? Because he's working patience in us.
Speaker 2:His trials are targeting the faith of his people. He's not giving ungodly people trials. They're doing what they do. But we know it's a trial because we have been given faith. And when you think about it, when it's testing your faith, it's like because most of us will say I love the Lord, I have faith, I was given faith, I believe, but nobody's asking for trials. And then, when it happens, we act like we're surprised. And then we want to have some say in the quality of the trial and in its duration. And God has not promised us anything with regarding the duration of a trial, how long it's going to be and whether or not we're getting one. But there's one thing that he does tell us that we can be assured of when we're going through trials. What would that be, brother Justin? What would that be?
Speaker 10:That last part that last sentence. What would that be?
Speaker 2:That last part, that last sentence. So God doesn't tell us what the quality of the trial is going to be, in other words, how intense it's going to be or what it's going to be about. He doesn't tell us how long it's going to be, and he doesn't tell us. He certainly tells us that we're going to have it. But there's one thing for sure that he does promise us when we go through the trials what does he promise that will be?
Speaker 10:the result of it, our faith and character and perseverance.
Speaker 2:And perseverance.
Speaker 10:Absolutely. What is it Perseverance? Faith produces. What is it Produces? Perseverance produces. What is it produces? Perseverance produces joni.
Speaker 2:What else were you gonna add to that, joni? What else is? What else does god promises about going through trials?
Speaker 7:that he will take care of us and what does that mean? Well for me. I was left stranded in the United States of America with no social security number, no way to care for myself and through his people, I was left alone Right.
Speaker 2:Lisa, what else I don't know I'm losing you, joni, I'm losing you. I think you, I think you got a bad connection or something showing that yet yeah, I'm driving okay, we'll come back to you when it clears up. Lisa, what do you say? What is something else that God guarantees us when we go through these trials, besides giving faith and like what Justin talked about?
Speaker 9:What else is he promises? He's making us close to being perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
Speaker 2:He says in the next I'm just reading past you, maybe I shouldn't. No, that's fine, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 9:Any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously, without reproach. If we lack faith, ask. And I think, honestly, these trials grows our faith? They do. I think, the ones that I think you will know them by that Some, some of the strongest men of faith, even today that I see on this app my goodness, this stuff they're going through. I mean, you know they go through it and their joy is in the Lord. And there'll be the first to tell you it is only by the grace of God that I'm making it through what I'm going through, and there is testimony, testimony, testimony. So I think that's what this is for.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Meg Mariah, and then Candy.
Speaker 3:Jesus said in this world you will have trials and tribulations, but fear not, for I have overcome the world. See, I think sometimes when we go through things, we look at things from a defeated standpoint. Already we're not defeated. The Bible says that we're victors, that we're overcomers, and I think if we have this heart posture, going into it and counting it all joy, and looking for the blessing and the brokenness, looking for those things that you know, the Bible says to declare those things that aren't as though they were. So when you're going through these things and these trials and tribulations, you start standing on the promises of God and declaring those things that aren't right now as though they were. And when you continue to walk and you continue to see those things, then guess what? You are counting it as joy. Why? Because Christ said it.
Speaker 3:And if Christ said it, we believe it. That's why we're called the children of God. Right, Because children are meant to be dependent on the father. That's what we're here for. That's why we count it joy. That's why it's called going through something. It's because you're just going through it. That's it. There's going to be something beautiful at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, greg, put a verse on the screen, I'll read it. I'll read it, greg, if you don't mind. He says out of Isaiah 43, when you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you, and when you walk through fire, you shall not be burned, nor shall the flame scorch you, For I am the Lord, your God. I mean, that is just beautiful Mariah, and then Candy.
Speaker 5:That is just beautiful.
Speaker 2:Mariah and then Candy Mariah, you got a bad condition too, I think. Can you hear us? Yeah, her connection is bad too.
Speaker 5:I can hear you. Can you hear me?
Speaker 2:No, you were going. Go ahead and try it now See what happens. No, we can't hear you.
Speaker 5:I was just trying to read James 1.12. Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love him.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 5:And he also tells us that he will provide a way for escape for us during those times. Amen, that's exactly right, candy, you were gonna say something would provide a way for escape for us during those times.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's exactly right.
Speaker 6:Candy, you were going to say something. I had three things, but maybe one of them that's that victory in Jesus baby. And then the other one is the laughing to my feet and a lot on my path. So he goes ahead before us and prepares the way. And then the other one is that there may be weeping in the night, but there's joy in the morning and there are a little bit longer for my child.
Speaker 2:So Peter says this In first Peter, chapter one, verse 3,. He says Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, jesus Christ, which, according to his abundant mercy, has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time and put a life in me. I don't know how anyone reads these verses and concludes that you can lose your salvation. But he goes on in verse six and he says wherein you greatly rejoice, though now, for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations. Why that? The trial of your faith, being much more precious than that than of gold that perishes though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory and appearing of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Now notice, peter lays out this case. He makes a case because he wants to lead you in to accept something that might seem foreign to you. So he tells you blessed is god, the father of our lord jesus christ, who, by his abundant mercy, has begotten us, given us life, but unto this lively hope, evidenced by the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead. And then, as a result of that, we get this inheritance, which is incorruptible, an incorruptible inheritance. It is an undefiled inheritance, it's an inheritance that does not fade away. And it's an inheritance that does not fade away and it's an inheritance that is get this reserved for you, reserved. It's already reserved for you. It's not just this open door. This hotel is not one you just go, anybody just walks into the mansion that we have in the house of God has been reserved for us already by name. Your name is on the register, and this is what Peter is saying your name is on this reservation, it's yours, it is there, it is undefiled, it does not fade away and it is incorruptible.
Speaker 2:And then he says and this reservation is for those who are kept by the power of God through faith, faith being the very thing that the trials Work in us Patience. So then he says, wherein you greatly rejoice, now, for a season, if need be, you're in heaviness, through manifold temptations, and he tells you that the trial of your faith May be more precious than gold being more precious than gold. But my point is this he lays out this whole case about this greatness of the salvation that we have and that God, who is blessed overall, has sent his son to do all these great things for us and to give us this inheritance. So he lays his case out because he's going to tell you something that's not going to be too comfortable at the end, but he's giving you these other words to establish the grounds for comfort before you get to hearing about the bad part, which is that the trial of your faith be much more precious than that of gold that, perishes though it be tried with fire, may be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ. And he says you are in, you know, even if you know if you're going through heaviness, through the manifold temptations which James says were the various temptations.
Speaker 2:Peter's saying the same thing, but Peter is giving you the grounds for your comfort, initially, laying this out as the, as the predicate for giving you the certainty that when you go through the trials, it is not to degrade you or to punish you or to bring retribution from God. It is to grow your faith into the place where you can be tried with fire in order to be found unto the praise, honor and glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your comfort is to be found and I see you, lisa. The comfort is to be found in the fact that your salvation is in place. It is reserved for you, it does not fade away, it is incorruptible, it is undefiled, it cannot be overthrown, it be taken. No one can come in and steal your place.
Speaker 2:And that place that is held is not just for open people, open visitors. It has your name on it because you were written in the lamb's book of life, that is the register to the hotels in heaven. Pardon my crudeness for that, but but this is what I know, we understand and Christians have a tendency to think that we are often being punished by God when we go through these trials. You're not being punished, you are being prepared. There's a difference. You're not being punished, you're being prepared. Why are you not being punished?
Speaker 9:That's going to be my next question, after Lisa says what she has to say. I was just going to say I was just getting super excited while you're reading this, because it's just like what I've said Our faith grows through these things. These things come because he loves us. And I have to say and I'm just wondering if anybody else on the panel when I go through my stuff, and even before I was born again, I never looked at these trials as a punishment, for some reason, I may not have understood why, but I always there's a reason, there's a reason, there's a reason and I truly, truly, I think this is just so amazing.
Speaker 9:It I feel joy. Now. It's like what else can I go? You know what I mean? I feel it and I'm super excited, um, by this, and I think that's where we need to stand as brothers and sisters when we see somebody going through it is remind each other of these truths, because I think you forget it in the moment because you're in the middle of it, right, and you tend to forget it, but anyway, that that's all I was. I just got excited rather than, you know, blurted out.
Speaker 2:We like excitement. So, listen, let me ask you a question. I'm going to go around and I'm going to ask everybody. So, if you're listening, listen to this, because I want you to be able to answer when I come to you, or at least have what you think your answer might be, or what your answer is. Is there a scenario where a Christian is ever punished by God? That's the question. Does God punish his people? Does God exact retribution on his people? Jeffrey, what do you say?
Speaker 4:I say no, because Christ took all the punishment for our sin on the cross. But that doesn't mean, brother Jonathan, that he doesn't correct us. He will correct us, he will discipline us. But that correction and that discipline is for our refinement and for our betterment, for our growth, for the trial that we may be going through at that particular moment. It may be a turning point, it may be a learning lesson, whatever God wants it to be. That's what it will be and he'll make sure that we understand it.
Speaker 4:But as far as punishing to impugn hurt or pain. No, he doesn't do that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Brother, brother Justin. And, by the way, brother, I'm glad to see you here.
Speaker 10:It's been a while, I know it has been a little bit too long. Too long, yeah, no, no, he never does. You know 1 Corinthians 13,. It says love, it talks about love, and it says love hopes all things and believes all things. And we can't both believe and hope in all things and believe that God is punishing us. I think that is. The test is that we endure in our understanding of God's love for us during hard times, despite what the evidence may seem like. And that's what actually strengthens us is the remaining of the the, the steadfastness of our hope. So if we actually accepted that it would be, punishment would actually go against everything that he's trying to communicate. Amen, yeah.
Speaker 10:I agree with you.
Speaker 2:I agree with you a hundred percent on that. I think that the trials that we go through or sort of like you know another sports analogy, but like when you, if you're on a football team or something like that the, the, what you're going through in practice, the discipline in practice, is what makes you ready for the game in some respect. And I know that that that analogy might fall short a little bit, but the point is that this works in us patients and it builds. It builds discipline, spiritual discipline, enabling us and making us and rendering us capable of enduring under the most strenuous of trials. And the thing is, what I think that Christians will find out is that some of the greatest I mean think about it.
Speaker 2:Even when we read the scriptures, we know, because we look back at, what people like Abraham, david and these giants of the faith went through. But they went through these big things that I'm afraid many of us today would not be able to endure, wouldn't be able to endure. And yet we find out that, throughout scripture, it was always the people that had the greatest faith that had the greatest trials, which is completely consistent with what brother Nathan was saying earlier when he says that if God is not testing you. If you're not being tested and tried, then you need to really rethink your relationship and where it's going and where it is, and if you have one or not, because this is not a trials and temptations and afflictions and persecution, mockery and scorn. This is not an option for the Christian. It is going to happen. God is sending it.
Speaker 10:I think about Paul's thorn in his side that he resolved to say it was actually a blessing Right. All of his complaining, it turned out to him getting a no from God, and that no he saw as a blessing Right Because it was the thing that was going to keep him humble and, at the end of the day, that's what is going to be the best thing. Being humble is always the right choice. There's never a situation that humility is the wrong choice. Right, amen, brother.
Speaker 2:Greg, what do you have to say, brother?
Speaker 8:We already answered the question about punishment right For the believer.
Speaker 2:You can add to it. I'm always looking to hear more about that.
Speaker 8:No, no, I mean, that's no. I mean, I think it was simple and sufficient. It was. There's a there's an old hymn called how Firm a Foundation, and in the fourth stanza it says though through fiery trials your pathway shall lie, my grace, all sufficient shall be thy supply. The flames will not hurt you. I only design thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine. It fits right in there with that first Peter verse.
Speaker 2:What hymn was that in?
Speaker 8:there with that first peter verse. What him, though? Is that what him know? Is that in? Well, the, the name of the hymn is how firm a foundation. Okay, it's great. I love the old hymns. I do. Only thing I like better than the old hymns is shy lynn. I don't know what that is. Yeah, you do, I shared.
Speaker 2:I remember that shy lynn, oh yes, the rap guy, yeah, yeah yeah, I, I downloaded a couple of those of those songs, but um, but no, that's that's, that's good. So I'll say this I, I like uh on the answers we got on that because, like greg said, those answers were simple. Normally sometimes you go around and you get by the time you get eight. You got everything you need to hear. But the big one was, when? Was one of the ones that that?
Speaker 2:I liked that when, when jeff talks about how, um, uh, something he said about christ, um, the punishment that we got, the punishment that we deserve, he got the lord jesus christ. It was on him. And this is a significant reason, uh, which is consistent with what justin was saying, as to why we don't have to undergo it. So all that we go through is to build us up in this most holy faith, as it were, and it is the thing that is important for us to understand the Christian we are expected to know. That's what James says in James 1, verse 3. He says knowing this, knowing this, in James 1, verse 3. He says knowing this, knowing this, you counted all joy when you fall into these temptations, knowing this that this trying of your faith works, patience. And then Peter picks up the same thing when he lays out the fact that we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We have this abundant mercy, and I love when we see in the word of God when one of the writers says abundant or exceeding, because it's saying that God doesn't just give you the minimum, he doesn't even give you the maximum capacity, he goes over to where your portion is overflowing. And so he goes through 1 Peter 1, verses 3 through 5, telling you how comfortable you should be, relaxing in the fact that you know that the salvation that God has given you is solid. It cannot be taken away from you Unreserved. I mean reserved, undefiled does not fade away, we know this. And then he sets you up for what we might think is a letdown. But he's saying, no, you're going to go through heaviness, heaviness, through many temptations, and the reason is that your trial of your faith, being much more precious than that of gold that perishes though it be tried with fire, might be found unto the praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. So he tells us what the purpose is, so that we may be found unto the praise, honor and glory. So this is why we count it all joy because we know what the end of the trial is all about.
Speaker 2:Now here's the thing I was going through and still going through this little bit of a thing that I have going on, and somebody said earlier about the light at the end of a tunnel. I forget who said it, but somebody mentioned that and one of the things that I thought about going through a trial a significant trial that I've been going through for a while, it was that you can get into the tunnel and you finally see that light. So you're driving down. You know you've been on this road for a while. It's been difficult. It's been a storm, storm after storm, wind after wind, rain, pounding and pummeling on the car and then you finally get to the tunnel. You're near the end, you see the light and then you get a flat tire.
Speaker 2:You get a flat tire halfway through the tunnel. You see the opening. You see the opening. You see the opening. Mile two miles away, three miles away, whatever it is, but you see it, you got too excited.
Speaker 6:See you jumped the gun and you're just a little bit longer brother.
Speaker 3:Jonathan, you better get out that car and push that car to the light brother. That's what you better.
Speaker 2:do you get a flat tire on an uphill?
Speaker 4:oh yeah or sometimes, jonathan, that light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. Yeah, that's where the saying from it's not about our timing.
Speaker 6:It's about god's timing. We're timing. It's about God's timing.
Speaker 2:But the point is the thing is, we see it and Peter see. The thing is, when it comes to the word of God, like when you read 1 Peter, chapter 1, verses 3 through 5 the ones I already read it's funny thing is, god gives us the light that he shows us. He gives us.