The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Why Modern "Apostles" Cannot Exist in Christ's Established Kingdom
Ever wondered why so many people today claim apostolic titles and prophetic authority? This eye-opening conversation cuts through confusion to establish biblical truth about Christ's kingship and authentic apostolic authority.
The discussion begins with a powerful reminder: before Israel demanded human kings, God Himself was their direct ruler, communicating through figures like Moses and Abraham. Christ's arrival marks a restoration of God's intended relationship with His people – direct divine rule through the King of Kings.
We tackle a fundamental question: If Jesus was born King (as the wise men clearly recognized), then He must have a kingdom. But is this kingdom present now or coming in some future millennial reign? The answer reshapes how we understand both Christ's authority and the role of apostles.
The biblical requirements for apostleship emerge with striking clarity. True apostles were personally called by Christ during His earthly ministry AND witnessed His resurrection. This dual qualification – direct appointment by Christ plus witnessing His resurrection – means the apostolic office was necessarily limited to the first century.
What about today's self-proclaimed "apostles"? The conversation pulls no punches: they're claiming titles that don't belong to them. When the last apostle died, the signs, wonders and miraculous confirmations of their authority died with them – not because God's power diminished, but because their purpose was fulfilled through the completion of Scripture.
Most provocatively, we confront the question: What could any modern "prophet" tell us that isn't already revealed in God's Word? The answer is simple: Nothing. Christ has spoken definitively through His apostles, and their testimony is perfectly preserved in Scripture.
Ready to understand why God's kingdom structure matters so much today? Listen as we explore how recognizing Christ's uninterrupted kingship transforms our understanding of church authority and protects us from those who would claim power never meant for them.
Exactly what I'm getting at.
Speaker 2:Thank goodness Amen.
Speaker 1:Under the old covenant, god himself, jehovah, dealt directly with his people. He had Moses that he spoke to, he had Abraham that he spoke to, he had these great men of the Bible that he spoke to directly and he dealt with them without the need for an intermediate king. He was their king directly.
Speaker 3:Mariah, go ahead um, like hebrews, one says so, for in times past he's spoken to us by the prophets, but now he has spoken to us by his son.
Speaker 1:Amen, absolutely, absolutely. So now we have again the the, with Christ coming, we have this sort of restoration Of what should never have ended, which was God dealing with his people directly. And Christ himself even said, in order to enhance that experience when I depart, I'm going to send a comforter who is going to show you and lead you into all righteousness, into all conviction of sin, convincing of sin, etc. The Holy Spirit will live in each one of us, and Christ did this. We don't need to have another king. We have Christ now, who sends his Holy Spirit to operate within us, to guide us into those things that make us understand his word and, as a result, to understand and have a better understanding of him and his glory and what is to come, to enhance our expectation of his return and our own glorification finally being met, with, which we will all realize when we have our last breath, our last breath, taken from us by God. So, like somebody said, candy Girl says King of Kings, christ is now our king. He's the King of Kings. Now let me and this is important because I'm sticking with this theme on prophets and apostles, but I need to establish some other things that tie into this so that we understand what we're dealing with.
Speaker 1:Christ is himself king. God dealt with the people, his people, before Saul was installed as king. God dealt with them directly, as their king, directly. They asked for a king. They should not have done that, but God gave it to them to them anyway, because they were whiners and complainers. So he gave them what they wanted, and we see the results of what that meant. So, but that rule, the nature of God's rule, would be restored when he sent his son to come to earth to be what to us, anybody, our savior.
Speaker 4:But he's our king.
Speaker 1:Yes, and high priest yeah, our king yeah, but we're talking about this authority, this king part oh, his kingship. Yes, he high priest, yeah, our king yeah, but we're talking about this authority is king part oh, it's kingship. Yes, he's our, he's our king. Now let me ask everybody a question Can he be a king without a kingdom?
Speaker 1:No no no, he cannot be a king unless he has a kingdom. Can he be a lord without people to be a lord over? Nope, it's impossible. Now, as a king, christ is king. We know that. He's king of kings, lord of lords. So here's my next question how many kingdoms does he have? Anybody? One, one kingdom. So now let me ask another question. In Revelation 20, when it talks about the millennial reign, or the kingdom of God that our dispensational friends say Is a future coming kingdom, is that the same kingdom or is that a different kingdom than what we are in right now, that Christ is head of right now?
Speaker 4:It's the same.
Speaker 1:Does anybody here think differently?
Speaker 4:But I think it's not about if anybody thinks differently. I think there's a lot of people who believe in kingdom of heaven. Kingdom of God, like when Jesus was preaching, kingdom of heaven. So if you could explain this a little bit. Well, this is my thing.
Speaker 1:This is what I'm getting at. What would it be? Christ was born king, was he not? Yes, son, he was born king. Yes, not yes, ma'am, he was born king. Yes, sir. The Bible tells us in Daniel, prophet Daniel. He says that this stone that would be carved out of a mountain without hands would set up his kingdom on earth. And this stone would fall down, would crush the feet of Daniel's image of the four superpowers Babylon, medo-persian, greece, greeks and Rome. And it says in the days of those kings shall God set up his kingdom on earth with a stone that was cut out without hands. Does anybody want to venture a guess what the stone was that was cut out without hands?
Speaker 3:The cornerstone Christ.
Speaker 1:Christ Amen. Why was he the stone cut out? Why does it say he was cut out without hands?
Speaker 3:Because he's uncreated.
Speaker 1:He's uncreated. He wasn't created. He was made, but without hands he wasn't created. He was made, but without hands he wasn't created. He always was, he always is and he always will be. So when was this stone that was cut out without hands established In his rule? Position of rule and authority. When did this take place? In his position of rule and authority.
Speaker 3:When did this take?
Speaker 4:place At the cross, at his resurrection.
Speaker 1:Nope, what was the?
Speaker 4:question again. I'm sorry. In other words when did the Lord Jesus Christ become king? When he was born, he was born.
Speaker 3:How do we?
Speaker 4:know that.
Speaker 3:Because wasn't Herod trying to unalive him? For that very reason.
Speaker 1:What did the people, what did the wise men say? What was the question the wise men were asking when they were looking for the newborn baby?
Speaker 3:Where is the king that has been born?
Speaker 1:Where is he? Who was born king of the Jews? He was born king.
Speaker 2:He was king before he ever came in the flesh.
Speaker 1:He was always king, but in terms of him being king in the, in human flesh, this was a new thing. This was a new thing. He was always king, he was always God, but he was never he was not always flesh Right. So when he put on, when he put on human flesh, he was king. God put on human flesh, he was king, god in flesh, and he was king. And this is what I'm saying. When they, when the jews, dealt with god directly, that's what things? That's what was supposed to be, they asked for a new king, for a human king, and they got flawed men. But Christ came and restored his kingship to himself in the person of a man, and now he's king and he was born king. So here's my point If he was born king, if he was born king, that means, as we already established earlier, that he has to have a kingdom.
Speaker 1:You can't be a king without a kingdom. If anybody disagrees with that, I don't know how to help you on that one, but a king has to have a kingdom, right? He's king over he. He is king over a dominion kingdom. Now let's go back to my question earlier about the millennial kingdom in Revelation, because people take that to be a different kingdom that is yet to be future, meaning that we are not in it right now. So either we are in it now and that interpretation is wrong, or we're not in it now and there are more than one kingdom. So my question is this If there is more than one kingdom, what does that suggest about all of the subsequent kingdoms? Brother Greg, what do you think?
Speaker 2:There's one kingdom and through grace by faith and my salvation On this earth, right now we are all, through grace by faith, a part of that kingdom.
Speaker 1:Right, but here's what I'm getting at. I want to get your minds right because if you lay hold of this thing thing for those who might not know, I need to make this clear, let me. Let me just say, instead of asking me, asking it, christ was born king. Nobody will argue he's born king. If the millennial kingdom that is to come in the future, if that is, if we are not in what Revelation is talking about right now, then that would suggest there's more than one kingdom. Why would that be a problem?
Speaker 6:That would mean there's another king.
Speaker 1:That would mean that there's another king number one. But there's something else I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:There's something else. To me that means who knows what kingdom's going with Jesus when he comes back.
Speaker 1:Let me put it this way Because I want somebody else to say it without me saying it. Here's what I want to get at If Jesus was born king over a kingdom, whereby there's another kingdom to follow later, what does that say about the existing kingdom that we're in right now?
Speaker 1:Oh, that it's not an everlasting kingdom, that it's not an everlasting kingdom, and it also implies that the one that we're in right now needs to be superseded because there's something flawed about it. In other words, if Christ was born king and there's another kingdom that we're not in yet, that's coming in the future, then it implies fault or something flawed About the one that we're in right now, which there was something flawed About the one that we're in right now, which there was something flawed about the one that we were in.
Speaker 2:That's why Jesus came and became king, because God came asking in Jesus to make it one big kingdom for us all to go to the same kingdom. Because this one was flawed, so you have to do away with it.
Speaker 1:No, the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is one where the Christian church militant is at war. Well, my point is this Jesus set up his throne on Earth. When he came, he was given by his father dominion and rule and all authority all of it. He was given that in his ministry when he was here.
Speaker 1:I know we're talking about apostles and prophets, but this needs to be dealt with. So what I'm saying is this jesus christ was set up on earth to be king. The stone that was cut out without hand, without what, the stone that was cut out without hands, and he would. He would crush the image of Daniel's image and crush it, and all the kingdoms of the world would eventually become his. So what I'm saying is that if we believe, if there are those who believe, that the kingdom of God that the Bible talks about is yet future, then that means that we're not. He doesn't have a kingdom now, or he does have a kingdom now, which will give way to another kingdom later, because there was something faulty about the one that we have that warrants the need for another kingdom to follow. Does that make sense?
Speaker 7:Brother Todd, go ahead, it makes perfect sense. I think where some of us have a hang-up is, like you know, the enemy has a rule over certain parts of the world, right, and it's ultimately the final battle, that it's warfare, right, and the kingdom is his kingdom will have dominion over all things, taking, killing off, unaliving all kingdoms, and there'll be just one new heaven and new earth. So I get what you're saying. I think the hang-up is the thought process of like hey, there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth from this Armageddon. Right, is that established in a new kingdom?
Speaker 3:No, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's within the world.
Speaker 7:What's up?
Speaker 2:Okay. So, for example, our Bible is by King James, right, that's after the death of Christ.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 2:So you said, if a king's a king, he has to have a kingdom right.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 2:So then, is that considered to be another kingdom here?
Speaker 1:What is Is what considered.
Speaker 2:For example, like King James.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. This has nothing to do with King James.
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying like a king on earth. In order to be king, they would have to have a kingdom, right, right, so is that kind of. But at the same, can I read that scripture just say what you need to say, jonathan. Quick anticipation. Yeah, just spit it out read John 18.
Speaker 1:That's cool go ahead, greg, and then Mariah.
Speaker 6:So, right before Jesus ascended, he said all authority has been given me in heaven and on earth. So if Jesus has all the authority, how much authority does any earthly king have? If Jesus has all authority? Absolutely zero, Right, zero. And so we're supposed to go and disciple the nations, we're supposed to bring the nations into submission under Christ's rule, amen.
Speaker 1:This right here and see the fact. Here's the the thing, the fact. Well, let me, let me go to mariah first and I'll comment.
Speaker 3:Mariah, go ahead, you had something you wanted to say yes, because you're talking about the kingdom that has yet to come. But christ already covered that in 18 john 18, 36, and he answered pilate saying my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom will of this world, my servants will fight so that. I should not be delivered to the Jews.
Speaker 1:But my kingdom is not from here so let me ask you a question, mariah. So if that is true, which you just read, and it's clearly true what does that suggest to you about the expectation of a kingdom that is to come? That hasn't been, that hasn't come here yet. That's going to be sometime in the future, when there's been this rapture of the church and, you know, tribulation and all this other nonsense that people talk about. What is? What is what you just read and said? How does it make well, how does it make you understand better what Revelation 20 is talking about?
Speaker 3:It's this very same kingdom.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's the very same kingdom. There aren't multiple kingdoms, because that would imply multiple defeats that Christ will never have. If he's a king now, his kingdom will never be defeated. So the issue is is he king now or is he going to be king later? And this is important because, in order for him to be king, if he's a son of God and we know that he is then we also know that only he can appoint apostles.
Speaker 2:He is king, now and forever, and eternity.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's exactly. There is no. Now let me ask you this question Are there any interruptions in his rule and dominion that anybody can speak of and prove from the scriptures? Are there any interruptions? Is there a parenthetic window where he is no longer king until the millennial reign begins? No, he was born king. They came asking where is he? Who was born king of the jews, born king, so being born king, and and here, and we spent some time on this.
Speaker 1:But there's a reason why. Because we're talking about prophets and apostles, but now I'm leaning in on the apostolic office, because, remember, we already established that the thing that was singular in terms of, or the singular thing that tied a prophets and apostles together in terms of how they were called, we said and established they were called directly from god himself. Is everybody with me so far? They were called the prophets and the apostles were called directly from god. The apostles were called by who? Jesus. How could, how could, how could they be called and how could they be called apostles by Christ? How could that be? How could that be considered a legitimate call, a legitimate appointment? Jeffrey?
Speaker 5:are you there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how is the call of the apostles by Christ considered an authentic call, a genuine call?
Speaker 5:Because he is the king and the king is who, god, yes, amen, god, king.
Speaker 1:And the king is who, yes, amen. Oh, here's it. So so again, here's another thing that I'm trying to establish, because people are always talking about how the bible doesn't say that jesus christ is god almighty. The only way anybody can be called an apostle is if Christ was God, because only he is. He is the one that called all 12 of the apostles Right? Do you see that, meg? See it, brother, the only way an apostle could really be an apostle being that all 12 of them were called directly by Christ. What does that mean about Christ, lisa? It means he's God.
Speaker 1:It means he's God.
Speaker 4:Almighty, almighty, the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning and the end. I'm about to bust some bars on it, amen.
Speaker 3:Amen sister.
Speaker 5:Take it easy, meg, don't go crazy tonight.
Speaker 1:But I'm asking, I'm hoping, as I'm going through this thing, that God is giving me the benefit and the blessing of making this understandable, because I know that there's a lot of frailty that might exist in my trying to convey this. But if you understand that Christ is working in a three theocratic capacity, god is now dealing with man At this point, when he's on earth. He, he came to earth to rule, before he ruled from the heavens, very heaven itself. But he came here to earth, draped in human flesh, to establish clearly who he is and what he is here to do and what he's capable of doing while he was here and what he is here to do and what he's capable of doing while he was here. And then, even upon his ascension, he made provisions for that to continue in a more glorious and a more effective way, in a more widespread way, by sending his Holy Spirit to dwell within us. And this is the beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:So now we're dealing with the requirement of an apostle. What makes so an apostle? As I'm trying to lay it out, by establishing his lordship and his kingship, his current lordship and current kingship. That means that he has the ability to designate and to appoint those who are apostles Now. But there's something else peculiar that needs to take place for someone to be fitted with that role of apostleship. There's something, in other words, they were called directly by Christ, for sure. But there's something else that is very specific that singles out the particular calling of an apostle Meg. What do you think it is?
Speaker 4:Seeing Christ themselves. Take it a little further the the resurrection, the resurrected christ yes okay, I just want to say this too, real quick. So when you laid all this out about how big our God is, right, doesn't it make us feel like a little bit smaller and humble? Doesn't it make us feel like there's a lot of people out here that are freestyling on God?
Speaker 4:You see, and it, and it, and it just goes to show. You know, I think sometimes when we speak about God, we need to remember this is the same thing, how big he is and how small we are. And although sometimes we want to try, and you know, make him fit us, no, no, no, it is us that fit him. Amen, you know for you laying that out, brother. It again humbles me and puts me in a space of awe.
Speaker 1:You know, even just going into just this part, you know, you know the, the, the things, that I've said this before and I think some of you have heard me say it, so forgive me for my repetition, but repetition makes things solid in people's minds.
Speaker 1:And I said a few weeks, few weeks back and I say this all the time to people who know me that there's a difference between looking up into the sky and seeing all the stars and looking up into the stars and recognizing the constellations. So what we're doing, what a lot of people do, they just read the Bible. They see the majesty of it, they see the glory of it, but they don't see the constellations. They don't see how the stars are connected to develop Orion and Pleiades and the Big Dipper and whatnot. So when we do this, when we go through these exercises, we're learning how to find the constellations in the word of God, if you know what I mean, and I'm using that by way of analogy. So when you, when you determine when, because you have people say that Jesus Christ is not God, he's not king or he's not going to be king until later, well then, if that is true, then how can the apostles be apostles?
Speaker 1:Because they were called and appointed to that role by him, by him by him it could only be by him and it could only be by him if he's god, and that's the connection that I want everyone to understand. The only way that apostles can be an apostle is number one they were trained. They were trained disciples that were called by Christ himself. Number two those same folks, those same men who were called by Christ as disciples, they became apostles when Christ was resurrected and saw. They saw him who was resurrected and, like my brother Big Gravy says in the notes, so was Paul, and he was All 12 apostles, including Paul as basically the 13th one. They were all disciples of Christ, they were all called by Christ personally and they all witnessed and were called by the resurrected Christ, the resurrected and glorified Christ. Now, that being true, that being true and it is what do we say then about these folks today who call themselves apostles?
Speaker 2:Because I have to tell you, Liars, they're liar liars pants on fire.
Speaker 1:They are liars.
Speaker 5:Yeah, they're taking a name Jonathan that's not supposed to be. That is not theirs. They're taking a name Jonathan that's not supposed to be. That is not theirs. They're stealing, not only lying, they're stealing something a recognition that doesn't belong to them or wasn't intended for them.
Speaker 1:Brother Greg just said something that I was going to bring up next. He just said it just occurred to me that Judas never saw the risen Christ. He's right.
Speaker 2:Judas never saw Christ.
Speaker 1:Post-resurrection and piggybacking off of that he never did. That was my next point.
Speaker 2:Judas. It says that these men had been with Jesus from the beginning of his ministry and they're witnesses to the resurrection. But Paul was an apostle in the sense because he seen the risen cross.
Speaker 1:Yes, he did, he did and so, and that's another thing. So, brother Greg, thank you for bringing that up, because that was literally my next point, that Judas, he wasn't numbered among the twelve, never wasthias. Matthias was the one that was put in there when they cast lots, but he, but matthias, you know, you know there was, you know he must have had some relationship to the but. But the point is, christ is the one, the lord, lord, jesus Christ, the resurrected Jesus Christ, he is the one who appointed his 12. And I would make the argument, I would make an argument like Brother Greg just said, that Matthias wasn't chosen by Christ, paul was, so Paul was. Now, would I argue to the grave on that? No, I would not. I will say, in the worst case scenario there was more or less 13, but I would say that Paul was the 12th apostle.
Speaker 4:Someone said in the comments we still have the five-fold ministry.
Speaker 1:Five-fold ministry is a crock. Whoever said that five-fold ministry is a crock.
Speaker 2:Can you tell me what that is? What is that?
Speaker 1:Meg, you want to talk about it, you want to bring it up go read about it, but go ahead, brother no, I don't you know what I'll do. I'll do another, I'll do another segment on that yeah, that's a whole conversation.
Speaker 2:That's a whole another conversation but, uh, I have to deal with a second and third yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's something I probably should deal with, but I don't want to deal with it tonight because I don't want to get up, get us off the subject of the apostolic authority. But what I was saying is so I'll make a point to do something on this five-fold ministry. But, getting back to the apostleship, so these men were chosen by christ and they were chosen by christ and they were disciples that were with him for his entire ministry, before he, before he went to the cross, and, and they were still with him after his resurrection. And it was after his resurrection that they were made apostles. They became apostles, they were commissioned to be apostles and they were given. They were given the.
Speaker 1:When christ sent the holy spirit, um, after he ascended, he gave gifts to these apostles, fulfilling the prophecy of joel, of joel the prophet, and, and, and that we see materializing in the book of Acts and the signs where we see in 2 Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 12, it says truly, the signs of an apostle will rot among you all in patience and signs, wonders and mighty deeds, signs and the wonders and the gifts that we saw people do like in the book of Acts.
Speaker 1:All of those gifts, regardless of who they were performed by. They were referred to by Paul as signs of an apostle. Signs of an apostle, that means that and this signifies and we could go into another, deeper dive into this whole thing another day. But my point is this the signs and the wonders and the miraculous things that we see in the book of Acts had much to do with the gift of any authority that Christ gave to his apostles, and those gifts went on as long as the apostles were alive. So the signs of the apostles, they went away when the apostles went away, in other words when the last apostle deceased. When the last apostle deceased, all signs and wonders and these miraculous events that people are pretending today and feigning, they all died with that last apostle. They were no longer needed.
Speaker 4:Why did they die? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Speaker 1:Why did they die? Because they were mortals.
Speaker 4:No, I'm saying why did the gifts and those signs?
Speaker 1:on a life Because the role, because the role of the apostles, had been complete. In other words, john was the last one. John gave us the, the, the, the book of Revelation, and he gave us the gospel of John and his epistles. He was the last one to live and he was also the gospel of John and his epistles. He was the last one to live and he was also the youngest of them all. So so when he died, all that was needed to be said about Christ has been had been said, and everything that was needed to be said was put in what we refer to now as the word of God. So I had somebody write earlier.
Speaker 1:That is wrong. That is wrong, pastor Fred Durant. Look, people tell me I'm wrong all the time. Being wrong, saying I'm wrong, doesn't prove you're right. It just means all you know to do is say you're wrong. Here's the thing Nothing that a person can do that they consider to be miraculous, a sign or a wonder. If it is being done, it has to do two things Authenticate the apostolic authority or the prophetic authority of a person, and in addition to that, it would have to authenticate a message that God is giving them today that is not currently in the word of God. If a prophet or an apostle pretending to be a prophet or an apostle were today, what are they going to tell us? As I say all the time, what are they going to tell us? That is not in the word of God? Nothing, nothing.
Speaker 2:And we don't need signs and wonders nowadays, because we have the Holy Spirit within us.
Speaker 1:We have the Holy Spirit within us.
Speaker 5:We don't need tongues either, because we can translate the word of God to any language we want to.
Speaker 1:Amen, and this is what we need to understand. This is what we need to understand. God is a God of order. Somebody says who was the last prophet? Well, jesus told us who the last prophet was. He told us. He said the last prophet was John the Baptist. Jesus said it twice the law and the prophets were until John. John the Baptist was the last prophet. Don the baptist was the last prophet. He's the last prophet that received a direct ordination from god to be in that role. Pastor fred, you think differently. What's your thoughts?
Speaker 6:yes, sir. Yeah, brother, give me a quick second.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's move on. So in Hebrews 1, I'm going to read something that I believe it was Mariah who read this earlier. In Hebrews 1, verse 1, it says God, who, at sundry times or various times and in diverse manners, spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, and he has, in his last days, spoken to us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom he also made the worlds or the ages. He also made the worlds or the ages. So it says that in his last time, these last days, god spoke to us by his son. He spoke to us by his son, and that means that his son gave his apostles the role of doing what they did, which was putting his words and his deeds into print. And that is why we have all that we need in this Bible. Right, that's all we.
Speaker 1:There's nothing anybody can tell me. That's not in this Bible, and I have to say it. You know, when people, all people, like to say today things like this, they like to say God told me. No, god didn't tell you anything. It's in the word of God. If he told you, he told you here, he told you here. I understand the, I understand the feelings that we get. I understand the biblical recall that we get, with the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, making us understand things that we have spent time to study. I understand that. But I know what people mean when they say that God is telling them. I know what they mean and I don't mean to put that down down and it says I know what people mean generally, but there are many people who believe that they are actually receiving. They want people to believe they are actually receiving direct communications from god telling them something that is infallible, that is outside the word of god I'll give you an example.
Speaker 4:I was on a live earlier today and a woman said the holy spirit told me that I need to go back to the law, told me that I need to go back.