The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
God's Word is sufficient—we don't need new prophets today.
Has prophecy ceased or continues today? This question strikes at the core of how we understand Scripture's authority and sufficiency in modern Christianity.
When Jesus declared "the law and the prophets were until John," He wasn't making a casual observation—He was marking a profound theological transition. Throughout this enlightening discussion, we explore the crucial distinctions between biblical prophets like Isaiah or Daniel, who received direct divine revelation, and the broader class of prophets who taught God's established word.
The conversation tackles why many believers misunderstand the prophetic office, examining how the apostles—personally commissioned by Christ—supplanted prophets as God's authoritative messengers. With compelling biblical reasoning, we address why the completion of Scripture fundamentally changes our need for prophetic voices today.
One panelist powerfully observes: "If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true." This principle cuts through the confusion surrounding modern prophetic claims. We examine Deuteronomy 18's sobering test for prophets and why those claiming prophetic authority today should approach such claims with profound reverence and fear.
The discussion culminates with a passionate defense of Scripture's sufficiency. When we have God's complete Word and the indwelling Holy Spirit, seeking additional revelations subtly suggests the Bible isn't enough—a dangerous theological position. Instead, we're called to biblical precision, connecting the dots of our faith through careful study and understanding not just what we believe, but why we believe it.
Ready for deeper biblical understanding? Listen now and discover why God's Word alone provides everything needed for faith and godliness.
What Jesus said. He says that the law, he said that the law and the prophets were until John. And then he says in Matthew 11, 13, all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And so my question to him was which he didn't answer, which was what did Jesus mean? What was he talking about when he says that the law and the prophets, the law and the prophets prophesied until john? Because you had a lot of profit. Remember, elisha ran a school of prophets. Does everybody remember that? Yes, elisha ran a school of prophets, but these were not prophets, in a sense, like John the Baptist or Isaiah, or because there were many prophets who spoke about many different things, but the principal role of the prophets of the prophets was to preach about things concerning Christ. And so it is. It would not have been. It is not an unforeseeable uh. It is not something that would be hard to understand that all the prophets before john were dead and there were no other ones.
Speaker 2:There were definitely prophets yeah, I agree, I agree, I see what you're saying, but what I'm saying is yeah they would be dying off, just like the apostles when they died off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so the idea that this was, this, was something that was going to be continuing as a regular situation? It actually it absolutely makes no sense. And even when Agabus Right, for example, we still did not have the whole, the whole canon of scripture, you know, put together. We still didn't have that. But the thing that is clear, the thing that is very clear, is that there is no need for a prophet or an apostle today, because we have our risen Lord and Savior, who is king and ruling right now, and we have his sovereign word and we have his Holy Spirit that dwells within us to help us understand his word and, as a result, understand more about him and his glory. And, and so I don't know how else to put that, but it may be, doing something on agonists would be a big deal, but I mean, you know you could. But the issue is, we know what we need to know. We don't need a prophet to tell us anything?
Speaker 2:there's not much really spoken about him. No.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Only like two things spoken, so like you don't even know, like I agree in saying that he, he very well could have been before John, meaning in age.
Speaker 1:That's what I mean. He was definitely. It wasn't like he was. It wasn't like it wasn't like. There were, there were, all the prophets had died. There were, there were. There were probably many contemporary prophets.
Speaker 1:At the time john the baptist was here, but john the baptist was. That was that primary forerunner. And so when christ said and that's the thing we always got to come back to what did he mean when he said the law and the prophets prophesied until john? That was the overall goal. It's just like when you look at daniel prophecy right Some parts of his prophecy, the primary aspects of Daniel's nine 70 week prophecy.
Speaker 1:The primary purpose of that prophecy was to talk about what leads up to and the culmination of the presence of Christ on the world stage Christ being born and Christ being crucified. That was the purpose of that whole prophecy, even though there were aspects of that prophecy that wouldn't find fulfillment until Jerusalem was ultimately destroyed 40 years after, or one generation after, christ came. But the crux of the matter when it comes to the prophecy of Daniel, 70 weeks was about the, the, the coming of Christ, the beginning of his ministry and his death, burial and resurrection. And the 70 weeks the fulfillment of his prophecy was done in Christ, and so the thing is, so many people have a hard time with that and they need to, they need to have something else that they need to have something else that gives them this sort of Lordship, understanding over every, over everyone else. And you know, and if you're a charismatic or a Pentecostal or an assembly is the guy's kind of person. You have to toe the line.
Speaker 2:Well, here's a. Here's a good fact that I'm cause. You know I'm sitting here digging. I'm trying to find out about this guy. So Agabus comes from the Greek Agabos, but it is of Hebrew origin. Probably Hagab it's the name of a distinguished priest who is the hero of the book of Ezra and co-worker with Nehemiah and Ezra, ezra 246. So if that's the case case, then he definitely was alive before john yeah, well, the thing is he had to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was no. There were no.
Speaker 2:There were no because jesus said it, that's it. You know what I mean. So there has to be something else. But just for information for the panel and for the people in the comments, he was probably that guy Hagar in Nehemiah Right as of chapter 246.
Speaker 1:That would have made him really old. If he went back that far, he'd been real old, like hundreds of years old. He could have been offspring or something like that. But the idea that somebody would build a whole theological doctrine or treatment on the perpetuation of prophets because of this guy here would not make any. It would make any sense. And here's another reason why because it was the apostles. And here's another reason why because it was the apostles.
Speaker 1:The apostles are what supplanted the prophets, so so what I mean is why would you have the apostles and then have new prophets after the apostles? Does that make sense? Yes, you wouldn't. You, in other words, you wouldn't. You wouldn't incorporate a lesser rank to go beyond the apostolic authority. Agabus certainly did not have the authority, the apostolic authority, and it would have been. So what he was sort of trying to insinuate, which is what they always do with Agabus, they all, they all do this. Just so you know, whenever you talk about the prophets, they're going to always go to Agabus and rationalize how they still have prophets today.
Speaker 1:There are no prophets today, you know, and Jesus himself said it, and that's why I asked the guy what did Jesus mean when he said it? Then you know. So there's something different between the prophets that Jesus was talking about, which he, which he, which he wrapped up in the law and the prophets, and in the fact that it ended with John the Baptist. What did he mean? And this is the bigger question, because what Jesus said was clear. He mean and this is the bigger question because what Jesus said was clear it's just like when you read John 3.16. Everybody talks about John 3.16, and that's the only verse in the Bible where he ever says something like that. Go ahead, lisa.
Speaker 5:So can you make this clear? The gift of prophecy is that the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is mean? Is that what it means when cause you do hear about, like there's? There's some comments in the chat down here.
Speaker 6:Can I read something from second Peter? I just want to be clear.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, candy, then I'll answer Lisa's question. Go ahead, what were you going to read?
Speaker 6:It was about the prophetic word. I mean you can go ahead and do it.
Speaker 1:No, go ahead, no go ahead, and do it. No go ahead, no go ahead and read it.
Speaker 6:It says and we heard the voice which came from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place until the day, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is any, is of any private interpretation, For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:Right, you know. So, lisa. So the reality is, here's one thing that is often misunderstood and that is just like what I mentioned, elisha being like the head of a school of prophets, and, if you remember, king Saul also had an altercation with you know, prophets of a school, remember he was he. He went in to act, you know, to prophesy, along among the prophets. You know among the prophets, you know, but there's. So you have, you have prophecy, you have prophets who give prophecy and you have prophets who teach, and there and there, and there was a there was.
Speaker 1:So, when you look at it, there was, there was a class of prophets who were not like prophets in terms of god. God, god called them to that peculiar office like an apostle, but they were students, they were students of the of the law and they were called. And they were called prophets Because just like, just like to some degree, just like some degree, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be out of it, would not be out of sorts for Christians who study the word of God, when they teach people the word of God, it would not be. It wouldn't be a lie to say they're prophesying, because they're talking about what's in the word of God, but there's a distinction between being a prophet as a teacher of God's established word, versus having a a a personal call by God himself to convey infallible words that are not contained in the word of God. Does that make sense, gotcha?
Speaker 5:Yes, so we could. We could say that there are like real good let's say real good teachers of the word, that I don't think they'd call them prophets, so they would say they have the gift of prophecy right, so they're teaching, okay.
Speaker 1:Right. It's just like if we start having a conversation about the return of Jesus Christ, I mean we're saying he's coming back. Are we prophets? No, are we prophesying Not really. Are we prophets? No, are we prophesying? Not really, but we kind of.
Speaker 1:Are you understand when we're talking about what the word of God tells us that things are going to happen, what things are going to happen? So, you know, you have all these people that are like, for instance, like to talk about a rapture and a tribulation and all this other kind of stuff. Well, those people, you know, they are more or less prophesying about something, something that's not going to happen, but they're prophesying about these things, you know, but it's. You know. Greg says something about the Pope. You know the Pope, they can, you know they are, they consider themselves apostles, they consider themselves in place of Christ, they consider themselves having the ability to, to communicate in the infallible words of God. And you know, and you got people that believe a, a whole lot of people, 1.4 billion people that believe them. You know, but this idea that people are receiving a call and they can, and they can put themselves on the same level as daniel or john the baptist or isaiah is absurd.
Speaker 1:We know in my experience that it's not true. We know that's not true. We know that God is not speaking to any of these people and telling them. This is what I want you to say to my people, but you have a lot of people in America, by the way, that like to believe they have these special powers and they think that somehow you're diminishing From what the spirit of God Can do. No, we have to talk about what he does do, and if something becomes Obsolete, like the old Jewish system, then Then it goes away for good. We don't continue it. You see what I mean. So if we have the word of God, if we have the word of God and we have the Holy Spirit living in us and we have a full understanding what Christ came to do and did and will accomplish later for us, what is a prophet going to tell us?
Speaker 2:What is a prophet going to tell us? Well, I'll tell you one thing. In Deuteronomy 18, when it says but the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall unalive. And if you say in your heart, how do we know which the lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the lord, if the thing does not happen to come to pass that the thing which the lord has not spoken, the prophet has spoken presumptuously, to me that's scary.
Speaker 2:I have fear of the lord and I would not even dare, Right, but people speak things so loosely, so, and and which to me it also shows like, do you have the reverence for God? That you should if you can speak so loosely? Because even when, when he was speaking to Moses, one of the things that he always said, and it says here in scripture, it says right here in Exodus, chapter 4, 12, it says now go, I will help you speak and we'll teach you what to say. God assured Moses, I will raise up for my people a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell everything I command him. So God ain't playing no games.
Speaker 1:No, he's not playing. He's not playing no games. And you know, and the thing, and the thing is, it's like this you know, and people who've been to people who've been to seminary or whatever, they know better, they know, they know, they know that there is there's a difference between, like Daniel or Isaiah, and a typical prophet who would have been considered like, if you, if you studied the Greek or something like that, you will, you will, you will understand that there's a class of prophets that are just, basically, you know, people who are trained and or and and or, who were gifted speakers about the truth. They could take the truth and they knew how to dispense with it. And it's very different, you know, it's very different. And so so those, those, those, there is a division of class when it comes to that.
Speaker 1:There were, there were prophets that had this ability. I mean, there were prophets that were directly called by God, directly called and anointed specifically to have these things. That are, these gifts of speaking, but not only the gifts of speaking, but they had these other gifts, which what they did was they would also have their messages and their calling be highlighted by the miraculous. Go ahead, Greg, you were going to ask something.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So what do we do with Luke? Right, he wasn't an apostle, but he wrote about half of the New Testament, right, Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts. What do we call him?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you would easily call him. I mean, you would not be out of sorts to call him a prophet, in a manner of speaking, it wouldn't be. But he was an apostle, or like an apostle. But in other words, he may not have had that, he may not have had the, the office, just like you know, he may not have had the office. I don't think he wasn't an apostle, for sure. But I wouldn't like, if you called him or you called him a prophet, I don't think it would have been outside of, I don't think anybody would have argued about it. Nobody did call him that. I don't think it would have been outside of. I don't think anybody would have argued about it. Nobody did call him that.
Speaker 1:I don't know what anybody called him, but he definitely was, as you put it, a writer of a great part of the New Testament, of his gospel and also the book of Acts. But that's a good question, because he was never called anything specifically. He wasn't called a prophet, he wasn't called an apostle, he wasn't called anything other than Luke. So, good question, I don't know that he needed to be called anything. I don't know that he needs to be called anything. But one thing for sure. One thing is for sure that Christ called 12 apostles, and there was something about them that was distinct from everyone who was not called an apostle. There were plenty other disciples and there were plenty of other people who, in the book of Acts, were given certain gifts to be utilized, but only 12 people were called the apostles that Christ designated as the apostles.
Speaker 6:I think that's because they actually got it from the holy ones.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Literally God himself.
Speaker 1:But that's a good question though, greg, about luke. But luke wasn't called anything else and luke luke is definitely a um, luke and the writer of hebrews are both sort of standout writers in the sense that they didn't have any kind of a of a, of an extra designation that goes beyond or that rises to the level of an apostle. But actually we don't know who wrote it. You know, some people speculate that it was Paul. I don't know, you know, we don't know that, so it would just be speculation. But you know, the reality is you meant Hebrews, right? I mean yeah. What did I say? Oh no, I meant Hebrews, right, the mean yeah. What did I say? Act? Oh no, I meant Hebrews, right, the writer of Hebrews.
Speaker 1:But I'm saying the writer of Hebrews and Luke have something in common in the sense that if the writer of Hebrews was not one of the apostles, then it would be the same question that could be asked about that Was he? You know who was he and what was his title or whatever. But the reality is, do they need to have it? Brother Todd thinks it was John who wrote it. I kind of lean toward Paul, but it doesn't seem like Paul's style. It seems like a little different to me, even though you know to me I think John Owen was probably one of the greatest theologians to ever live after Paul, and he swears it was Paul, but none of us really know. I like James.
Speaker 7:White's theory, which is what it was a sermon that was preached by Paul, and Luke was there and he wrote it down in Greek. Paul preached it in Hebrew because the theology is definitely Paul Right. But they say the Greek is is more Luke. So the theory is that Paul preached the sermon and Luke wrote it down in Greek.
Speaker 1:I like to I like to see who that was James White.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I have to look at that, you know, because I got a lot of respect for James White. Yeah, I have to look at that, you know, because I got a lot of respect for James White and I'd be curious about that, but I haven't seen him in years. But let me know what book or whatever you find it in, because I'm curious to see about that, just for my own personal interests. But anyway, it's been a good time and it's now the time for us to close up. I'll give everybody the last word. I will start with you, sister Angie. Last word.
Speaker 3:I mean, I totally agree with everything on this. There's no prophets and no apostles to this day. So if anybody sees any of that, just scroll up. You have to separate yourself and consecrate yourself. And I do want to read from Revelation, because that's where I saw that verse of, where it said it was a revelation 19, and it was an angel speaking to um, to uh john and you know, and he said to write this, you know to write. And it says how much are those who have been invited to the wedding feast of the lamb? Then he said then he added these God's very words, and that's very important to me. So he fell to the feet of worshiping him. He said don't do that. I'm only a fellow servant with you. The brothers who have the testimony of Yeshua worship God, for the testimony of Yeshua is a spirit of prophecy. So that's two different things.
Speaker 1:Mariah, last word sister.
Speaker 4:Second Corinthians 12, 11, 12,. Excuse me, but what do I? I will also continue to do that. I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are and the things of which they boast, for such are false apostles, deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of christ. And no wonder, for satan himself transformed himself into an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness whose end will be according to their works. So I mean, clearly there were people in their days doing it, and it's no wonder why it has not stopped today. And I think that a lot of people always talk about Satan transform himself into an angel of light, but they forget about his ministers and what they do. Praise God. I wish we could have stayed on topic because I think there was a great point that you were making with Christ being king. Hopefully we can continue that. Thank you so much to everybody on the panel and to Jonathan yourself. Double the honor. Love you guys, god bless.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, sister Candy girl. Last word.
Speaker 6:Psalms 23 yeah, I'll walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I will fear no evil, for you are with me, your rod, your staff. They comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil. My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Speaker 4:Amen. Thank you for that You're welcome.
Speaker 6:I thought I finished that on a better note than what we found.
Speaker 1:Hey, it happens every now and then, Brother Todd last word.
Speaker 8:Yeah, every false religion that has come about since the 1900s on have prophesied and those prophecies have not been come true, and I like to rest in the Lord and know that his truth is sovereign. It was a good teaching tonight. I appreciate how you map it out. With that said, I can understand. If I shared all with you, I would probably um, you guys would probably be upset with me, but okay, that's cool, um, but with but with that said, um, anybody who pretends to know when the end is or pretends to it's all false. It's all false and you know when. Just my goal is to try to break down as many barriers between brethren as possible, and I think just focusing on the truth is the way to go. And I think just focusing on the truth is the way to go, and I appreciate it. Appreciate you all tonight. I appreciate Mariah. You know Mariah, every time people get in a loop, you always come up with scripture, yes, and she always sets it straight. You're a good person. God bless you all.
Speaker 1:Thanks, brother, Sister Meg how are? You doing Last word.
Speaker 2:I would just say that our God is so big and we serve a mighty God, and we are so small and we have to remember that we are finite, trying to understand infinite, and so we all must stay learning. We all must continue to study the word, because if Bibles were written, were taken away. Let the scriptures be written on your heart so you can bring others to Christ. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1:Sister Lisa last word.
Speaker 5:Well, I would just say you, everybody, as always, this live blesses me so much I would just I pray for all of us to stay teachable, to stay humble and just, you know, just stay in the word. Let's just know our Lord. And I don't know, I just Look, I stay in the word, let's just know our Lord. And I don't know, I just Look, I'm at a loss. That's, that's really strange, but anyway, it's rare.
Speaker 5:It's really rare. I don't. I don't get my my thoughts out. I have. Obviously you guys can see that I have difficulty getting my thoughts out, but I just thank you all so much and I'm blessed by each and every one of you and the people in the in the comments, their questions and remarks. It's all so good. So thank you, jonathan, and thank you all. God bless you and I love you very, very much.
Speaker 1:Love you too, sister. You know that's true, brother Greg. Last word Very, very much. Love you too, sister. You know that's true, brother Greg.
Speaker 7:Last word, the last word with the last word yeah, if it's true, it's not new. And if it's new, it's not true.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's it. That really sums it up. See, I like how you can take what I may be talking about for an hour and a half and just sum it up in in like four or five words. I love that, but it's what you're saying is. That is absolutely the truth.
Speaker 2:And I'll end with be provoked and be persuaded, but then you got to say something else from your heart.
Speaker 1:You know, here's what I'll say. You know, I like, I like to like personally, in my, in my own heart, right, I feel that I have a tremendous love for the word of God, and not suggesting that everybody doesn't, but to me, biblical accuracy and and and biblical precision matters to me and I think that it is needful for us to be careful and what I mean I don't mean careful in of taking care to see that God's word holds the place that it is supposed to be holding. And because I think that the more that we stay, the more precision, the more precise that we are in handling God's word, the more glory he gets. And whenever we start opening up doors and telling and agreeing with people that want to tell us their prophets and that they're speaking in in tongues and that they have these miraculous gifts, or whatever, we are saying that the word of God is not sufficient. I am all about the word of God is not sufficient. I am all about the word of God, I'm all about the spirit of God that leads us and guides us to all truth. I'm all about what our Lord has done for us.
Speaker 1:I personally, like we talked about the other day, I don't need lollipops. I don't need lollipops, I don't need that extra thing. The word of God has to be it for us, in the spirit of God we must rely on to guide us and to teach us, and you know, in prayer is a significant part of this whole thing. So I mean, these are things that we all already know. Is important to me it's something that I always try to get people to really lay hold of is that it is not enough to know what you believe. You need to know why you believe it. You need to know why it makes sense to be believed, and that's why we study the word of God to understand why we believe it. We have faith, we know what to believe, but it's important to know why we believe, how to connect the dots. That's all. So, with that being said, christians- be provoked and be proclaimed.
Speaker 1:Have a good night, everybody. Until tomorrow, love y'all, love y'all.
Speaker 2:Good night.