The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
There Are No Modern-Day Prophets or Apostles—Here's Why
The heated debate over whether apostles and prophets exist today cuts to the heart of how we understand Scripture's authority and God's ongoing work in the church. This eye-opening discussion presents a bold challenge to popular claims of modern apostolic and prophetic offices.
Starting with a clear assertion that these biblical offices have ceased, the conversation examines why this position isn't merely theological preference but rooted in careful biblical examination. Jesus himself marked a definitive timeline when he declared "the law and prophets were until John," identifying John the Baptist as the final prophet appointed to deliver divine communications.
Revelation 21:14 provides particularly compelling evidence with its description of the New Jerusalem having "twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." This specificity—exactly twelve apostles—appears throughout Scripture where apostles are consistently referenced with the definite article "the," indicating a specific, limited group rather than an ongoing office available to believers throughout church history.
The qualifications for apostleship laid out in Acts required direct witness of Christ from baptism through ascension and resurrection. This criterion alone makes modern apostolic claims impossible to substantiate. Even Paul, whose apostleship might appear exceptional, satisfied these core qualifications through his dramatic encounter with the risen Christ and divinely appointed mission.
Those who claim these offices today face a fundamental problem—they cannot produce revelation beyond what Scripture already contains. If the qualification for being a prophet or apostle is simply communicating biblical truth, then all faithful believers would qualify, rendering these titles meaningless by biblical standards.
Don't be misled by those who claim special authority through these titles. Scripture provides everything needed for faith and godliness through the completed canon that the original apostles and prophets delivered. Their work was foundational, and we continue to build upon what they established.
Christians, I hope you're doing good this evening, and tonight I'm going to be discussing a topic that came up in another discussion that was being had last evening, where we were talking about the continuation, versus the cessation, of the appointment of those whom the Bible refers to as prophets and the apostles.
Speaker 1:So the issue or the thing that I will be addressing this evening is going to be whether or not there are apostles and prophets in existence today. Prophets and apostles do they exist today? Now, there are a lot of people today who believe that they are prophets. There are a lot of people today who believe they are apostles, and in both offices there are many who have been convinced that they know someone who holds this office or one of these offices Of prophet or apostle. But me, being one who is not inclined in my presentation of what I believe the Bible to be laying out as fact, I'm not going to hold back any surprises. I'm going to tell you up front the case that I'm going to make, so that you have no choice but either to consider me crazy or to agree or to be open to a perspective that might be alternative to what you currently hold.
Speaker 1:So let me say at the outset, so that those who wish to run for the hills may do so Me I don't care. I care about people who love the word of God and who are inclined and have a proclivity to embrace the truth of it, because we are here to talk about what the Bible says is true, and there are many people who will do and go to great lengths to convince you otherwise. But let me say it again at the outset so that people can be firmly planted on whether or not the significance of this conversation is worthy of your attention. There are today of this conversation is worthy of your attention. There are today no prophets. There are today no apostles. There are no prophets today and there are no apostles. I don't care how fancy or how glorious you think your preacher is, he or she, neither of them is an apostle or a prophet.
Speaker 1:Ever since the last apostle died, there were no more apostles to follow and there were no more prophets to follow. In fact, the Lord himself, jesus Christ himself, said that the law and the prophets were until John. He told us exactly who the last prophet was, and that was John, who the last prophet was, and that was John. John the Baptist was the last apostle, I mean the last prophet whom was given by God directly communications for the management of his people. So to make it clear, I don't care what anyone says, anyone says, and I'm going to prove it by what I'm talking about, because a lot of people are going to be like well, what about the context? What about the Greek? What about the Hebrew? What about this? What about that? What about the fivefold? What about this and what about that? There are no more prophets, no prophets, prophets today, period. Likewise, there are no apostles whatsoever.
Speaker 1:Sorry, gino Jennings, you're not an apostle. And all of you preachers out there that call yourself prophets or call yourself apostles. You are a liar. You're lying to people. Needs to be said. You're lying to people. You don't have any gift of prophecy that says anything that the Bible doesn't already say. Anyone who claims to say something or anyone who pretends to be in some position of that level as an apostle or in a prophet, there is nothing that you can say that comes outside of the word of God, which means that anyone who says it, anyone who cites something that comes from the word of God. If that is the ground whereby you can constitute yourself a prophet or an apostle, then we are all prophets and apostles, those of us who speak forth the truth that comes from the Word of God.
Speaker 1:My brother, brandon Perry, says there are only 12 apostles, and he is correct. There are only 12 apostles, 12 and no more. Just like there were the 12 patriarchs that came from forth from Jacob, there are the 12 patriarchs under the old covenant and there are the 12 apostles in the new covenant, and so the fact of the matter is there are only the new covenant, and so the fact of the matter is there are only the 12 apostles, only the 12. Somebody will argue, like my brother brought up, paul will be the 13th. Okay, paul Replaced An apostle who no longer held the role of apostle, so I think it is perfectly clear that there are still 12 apostles. One was replaced, so there are only 12 apostles.
Speaker 1:And I know that people are, and what I'm going to talk about tonight, there are going to be many people who are going to split the proverbial hairs. But let me explain one thing at the outset. No, let me say one thing at the outset, because I don't think this needs explanation. There are 12 apostles, no more, no less. Even if there were 13, even if there were 14, even if there were 15, what I can tell you unequivocally as a fact? There are none today, and as far as we know, john, john the Apostle, was the last of the Apostles and when John the Apostle died, all of those manifestations and gifts that the Apostle had and that existed in other people as long as apostles were alive, they ceased when John died. Also, as far as we know, john the apostle was not only the last apostle to live, but he was also the youngest one of all of the apostles. There are none Now.
Speaker 1:That being said, let me start by reading a passage. Before I call on the people who are in the panel to give their opening remarks, let me read something in Revelation, chapter 21, beginning at verse 10. Revelation, chapter 21, verse 10. It says this the Apostle John says this, and he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and he showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, and her light was like unto a stone, most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal, excuse me and had a great and high. I mean had a great wall, high and great, twelve gates and at the gates twelve angels and the names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel, and on the east gates, and on the east three gates, and on the east gates, and on the east three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates, and you had the 12 apostles. Now listen to what the last part of this verse is in verse 14. And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, 12 foundations and in them the names of the 12 apostles of the lamb, the 12 apostles of the Lamb. There were 12 apostles, not an infinite number, not 13 or 14 or 20 or 100.
Speaker 1:John in Revelation says that the foundation of this new Jerusalem, this great city, this foundation had the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb, the 12 apostles of the Lamb, 12. Twelve apostles of the Lamb, twelve. And I will submit to all of you that you will be hard pressed to find any passage of Scripture that refers to the apostles, that is not specifically dealing with just the twelve, and you will often find the 12 cited and discussed with the definite article preceding it. In other words, whenever you see the apostles spoken about, they're referred to as the apostles. The apostles. It is not an indiscriminate number of apostles, it is the apostles. Now, before I go on and start to describe what is the qualification of an apostle, I would like to open up my panel for the initial opinions about prophets and apostles. Brother Jeffrey, first remarks.
Speaker 3:Well, good evening Jonathan and good evening panel. Jonathan, I am in total agreement with you. If there are apostles and prophets today, I would ask the question who is it then that deems or gives them that title? Who is it that gives them and you used the word last night office? Who is it that grants it? I don't have an answer to that question, or I should say I don't find the answer to that question in God's word. Absolutely. I am right here with you, brother. So that's my thing. I'm in with you and I'm looking forward to hearing more and again, welcome to everybody who's here tonight.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brother, appreciate that, brother DT. Initial thoughts.
Speaker 4:All right, hopefully I'm not echoing. Yeah, I agree with the. There is a definitive 12 that is illustrated within Scripture. We do see possible ambiguous references. As far as the use of the name apostle, you did see that with Paul referencing himself as an apostle at one point, but yes, the 12 is a distinct one as an apostle at one point, but yes, the 12 is a distinct one. As far as prophecy and prophets, that becomes a little more hairy because I think of the gifts and I question are we now making a distinction the same way as we did with the earlier prophets being? Well, there's the definitive prophets that we know, the major and the minor, and then moving on to gifts of prophecy doesn't qualify you as a prophet, but it just basically means that there's some type of aspects of it that has a similar name to it, and that would be my issue there. Right?
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that a little bit too, so I hope to be able to make some ground in that as well. Candy Girl, do you have a perspective on the subject we're talking about tonight, the existence or the cessation of prophets and apostles?
Speaker 5:I think they're only in the Bible. I think they're only in the Bible. They're the ones that were given to us to hear and see and understand. By the way, hi, everybody, I'm just thankful and grateful and just humbled to have the Holy Spirit within me, to discern the truth from the Bible and a relationship with the Father and Son.
Speaker 3:That being said.
Speaker 5:You must be following me because I swear, every day, when we get on here, it's like you've been in a room that I have actually seen myself through the day or the night before and it's like you talk about. It's just God working man, god working, god working. I'm telling you All right, let's get her done All right sister.
Speaker 2:Beacon Hill. How you doing, brother Beacon Hill, oh, doing, well, how are you all tonight?
Speaker 1:I'm doing all right, my friend, how are you?
Speaker 2:Everything good. Yes sir, yes sir. So we're, talking about an interesting topic.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah. So we're talking about the existence of prophets and apostles today, and when I talk about prophets and apostles, I'm speaking out people who have been given direct, direct revelation from God and given by God infallible words that we are to adhere to. So what are your initial thoughts on whether or not prophets and apostles exist today?
Speaker 2:I would say that yes, they do.
Speaker 1:You would say that both do yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, good To the point that you know, just as Jesus said, nothing shall pass, not one jot or tittle. Nothing shall pass, not one jot or tittle. I believe that these titles are temporary names given to bring order to the body of Christ.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, here's the thing. Of course, I disagree with you on this one.
Speaker 2:However, I really want you to stay around, if you can. As long as you can anyway. Do you think I was going to run?
Speaker 1:away because you disagree with me. Oh, believe me, a lot of people do trust me, a lot of people do, but I want, I want to, I want there are some things I'm going to bring up and I want to. I'm going to want to get your perspective on it in light of your, of your perspective, okay, alright, so hang around, flavio, your thoughts. Prophets and Apostles today or no. No, I like a very succinct answer. I love it.
Speaker 6:You want to expand on it, why and why not Go for it? I would say first, so we can understand what these positions are in scripture. To see why I would say no. Scriptures is very clear, first of all, what an apostle is, and that's given to us in the book of Acts, when they're picking a new apostle after Judas did what he did. A new apostle after Judas did what he did. And that was that for you to become an apostle, you had to have had to been there from the time of Jesus' baptism to the time that he ascended into the heaven. And then for me that still brings up the question how is Paul an apostle? Because that technically wouldn't apply to him, but I think God chose him for a specific mission and purpose, so he was the outlier of that role. But to you being an apostle, you had to meet that requirement, which obviously it's impossible for any human being to meet, that requirement here today.
Speaker 1:Brother, I agree with you 100 percent, and the only thing that I'm going to add and the only thing that I'm going to hope I can persuade you about, because I have an idea, I know something about how your mind works and it's a good mind, so I just say that. But I want to show you how, even though paul was unique in a way, but paul still, he still satisfied all the aspects of what qualifies an apostle to be an apostle. That's what I want to point out. So, to the extent that you can say cause I know you've got a lot of things you'd be doing, so if you stay, I hope you can hear it, but if not, then we'll talk about it. And I hope we can talk about it Cause it just yeah, but I want to bring it up again yeah, mariah, sister, you, your thoughts, prophets and apostles today or no?
Speaker 7:Oh, I know a few apostles you do no, I know a few who claim to be so. I don't believe, doing my own Bible study. No, I know that there are requirements and qualifications for one to be, and nobody can meet that standard, absolutely, not Just from the scripture, and how the 11 were scrambling to see if there was anybody that could fit these, who has been here with us since he walked in and walked out among us and who could attest to his resurrection. It was like they were scrambling to to find who could, if any could, fill that spot. Um, and as far as prophecy or prophets, I don't believe so. Um, I believe that we are all in the state of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus Christ himself. That is the only one that can be foretold, because he there is still to come with our Lord and our Savior, as far as his second coming. So, as speaking about his second coming as prophesying and believing in attesting to that, that he will, right brother, your thoughts initially.
Speaker 4:Why would we need any more apostles or prophets when we have the Pope?
Speaker 5:How can you argue with that?
Speaker 7:He's lost Pope Gregory. So I mean there was one out the window, but what are we going to?
Speaker 4:do now.
Speaker 1:What are we going to do now?
Speaker 4:I had to give up the role. It was just exhausting. People praying to me night and day. I couldn't sleep at night getting prayers from all over the world, all hours just exhausting. But no, no more apostles, no more prophets yeah, I agree, um, um.
Speaker 1:It's funny because I looked at this when, you know, when I've studied this is a subject that I've dealt with for many, many years. That's why I didn't have a problem wanting to deal with, uh, the subject tonight, because when it came up, because because Meg, our sister Meg, is the one that sort of goaded me to doing this and she happens to be the one that's not even here, I'm going to give her an earful tonight. But anyway, the outlines that I have on this subject are lengthy. So it's a subject that I deal with, and not only do I like it to deal with it, but it happens to be something that comes up quite a bit in conversations and in light of that, I'm going to deal with one of the. Well, let me say this at first One thing that people do in the Christianian community, our community, in the visible church, in the visible church and what I mean by that, everybody who calls themselves christians, whether they are christian or not, that's the visible church.
Speaker 1:Everybody who calls themselves christian, whether they be catholics, 70 event is, whether they be whatever. But but the invisible church is what we refer to as the God's true believers, his true body, who are his elect. That's the true church. That is what is referred to as the invisible church. Invisible because we don't always know who they are. Now, one thing that all of us are familiar with in one way or another is this One thing that we're familiar with when people do not like a particular doctrine or when they do not like a topic that leads to a conclusion that they do not like, a topic that leads to a conclusion that they do not like, they will then give your perspective, a label that includes many things, including what they don't like no-transcript and think that and say well, if you fall under this canopy of doctrine, then no matter what you say, it's wrong. This is what labels do. It's a way for people who reject a particular truth to dismiss that truth under an umbrella of a bunch of other truths. They don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, you hear a lot about the doctrine. You hear a lot about Calvinism. People talk about Calvinism all the time. I hear so many Christians say oh, you're just a Calvinist. What I've also found is that almost all of them who would make that quote, unquote accusation they don't know one, what a Calvinist is. Number two, they don't know what an Arminian is, and if they knew what an Arminian is, they would know what a Calvinist is. And number three, if they knew the history of Arminianism and how it came about, you would know, from the historical standpoint, that Arminianism preceded Calvinism and Calvinism was a response to the false doctrines of Arminianism. This is just a fact.
Speaker 1:And when I tell people that Protestants come under one of two categories, you are either an Arminianist, an Arminian, or you're a Calvinist in your theology. And if you understand your arguments on either side, you will understand that if you pull one out, one of the doctrines, one of the points out of the context of the whole five, meaning the five key doctrines, if you pull one out of either the Arminian side or the Calvinist side, the whole system crumbles, period. A Calvinist will say that all are dead in sin and trespasses and sins. They're all dead, not sick, not mildly alive, not OK, but corrupted. A Calvinist will say that sinners are born dead in sin and trespasses and we will say that because of that, that because of that, salvation requires, requires by necessity, the election of God, the unconditional election of God, because if all have sinned and are condemned, then the only way that you could be saved is if God chose to do so, because there's no capacity.
Speaker 1:And this goes on and on and on. It's like that game that people play, jenga. You know Jenga, where you stack the blocks up and you pull one piece out until it falls. Well, this is what happens when people discuss biblical doctrines. A lot of people like to pull pieces out. And even when they pull pieces out, as long as it's still standing, they believe that the piece, that the whole system, is true, because the system didn't fall. But when it comes to biblical truth, all the pieces go together and when you pull one out of biblical truth, the whole system falls. Jenga you might pull out several before it falls, but when it comes to the biblical truth and the veracity of the scriptures, if you take out one truth from God's word that is significant in particular to salvation, the whole system falls.
Speaker 1:Arminianism had five points. The five points of Arminianism had five points, the five points of Arminianism, and they were put forth to the council, the Senate of Dort, and they were flatly rejected by the entire council as being a salvation that is based on works. It's a salvation that was wholly consistent with the Catholic Church, which doctrines we must reject flatly and roundly. So when the Senate of Dort heard the five points of Arminianism and I'm going somewhere with this when they heard the five points of Arminianism and they rejected it, they came back with their responses to each of those five points, and each of those five points were labeled and were given a nickname. That nickname was called Calvinism, and John Calvin himself had nothing to do with that name being given, nothing to do with it, but it had to do with the fact that he was a champion of these doctrines, just like Luther was, and just like many of the reformers were, and just like many of the Puritans were, and all those saints back in the day, augustine and all these guys.
Speaker 1:Why am I saying this? Because I want to lay out this point. Because I want to lay out this point, just because you give something a label doesn't mean that the things that you put under or categorize under that label, under the canopy of that label, that you don't like. It is weird to try to say, well, if I don't like one thing that you say, I associate you with this entire label that has all these other things that I also say, which may be true. So when we come to the word of God, even when it comes to the existence today of prophets and apostles. We need to understand something that there is a label that has been given to people like me who will say that prophets and apostles do not exist today.