The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Divine Healing vs. Human Deception: Separating Truth from Manipulation
Have you ever encountered someone claiming special spiritual gifts or divine revelation that supposedly sets them apart from other believers? This phenomenon, what we might call "Da Vinci Code Christianity," has created widespread confusion about authentic faith and the legitimate operation of spiritual gifts today.
In this thought-provoking discussion, we dive deep into the controversial topic of modern miracle claims, examining the fundamental differences between biblical miracles and contemporary experiences. While many believers sincerely report witnessing healing after prayer, we explore whether these experiences truly parallel the undeniable, public, immediate supernatural suspensions of natural order demonstrated by Jesus and the apostles.
The conversation reveals the specific theological purposes behind biblical miracles - they weren't arbitrary displays of power but served to authenticate God's messengers and validate their message during a crucial period of revelation. With Scripture now complete, we consider whether such authentication remains necessary and what that means for claims of modern apostolic or prophetic offices.
Perhaps most importantly, we address the spiritual damage caused when vulnerable believers are told their prayers weren't answered because they lacked faith. This manipulative practice contradicts Jesus' teaching that faith as small as a mustard seed is sufficient and places unbiblical burdens on those who are suffering.
Whether you've witnessed what you believe was miraculous healing, been confused by modern spiritual manifestations, or simply want biblical clarity on these issues, this episode offers thoughtful analysis grounded in Scripture rather than experience. God certainly still answers prayer, but understanding the true nature and purpose of biblical miracles liberates us from chasing signs and wonders and points us back to the sufficiency of God's Word.
Healing whatever. Most of these people that I have met in fact all of the people that I have met that claim to have all these gifts know very little about the word of God, but they opened up one of the Pandora's boxes that you find so many of in what I call Da Vinci Code Christianity. I say this a lot. It's that fantasy Christianity where people feel they have some special thing that they had to go dig up and find out and they got it and no one else got it. Brother Todd, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Have you witnessed healing, though?
Speaker 3:all never, never, okay never, I think that I think also that the dirt is danger in this too, and the danger is is when people see this and they're confused. I think that sometimes it can also cause people to stumble you know what I mean Like in their walk, because they don't know what's going on. Somebody says oh, I've heard so many quote, unquote apostles and prophets tell other believers, oh, you might be oppressed, you need to go get delivered, and I can help you get delivered. I mean it goes to where people start questioning their own salvation and their own walk with Christ and in certain areas of this, of this teaching or what people believe this to be, multiple times.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing, Go ahead, Todd Sorry.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree. Yeah, 100% Meg. I've seen people twist it around and manipulate people because it's kind of like why I think there's an apostasy in the church. Now, you know, jonathan talks about it all, he teaches certain things and then they try to keep everybody in line. I personally have witnessed healing, uh, but yeah, I'm here, can you?
Speaker 1:hear me go ahead, brother did I lose you.
Speaker 2:It went out okay. I personally have witnessed okay, I personally have witnessed healing and um but, but. But it was never like an authority or sovereignty issue where somebody was trying to control people with that.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question. You said, you witnessed healing. What did you witness exactly? I witnessed. What did you actually see?
Speaker 2:Uh, I witnessed. What did you actually see?
Speaker 1:Uh, I'll say that deathbed and being alive when the prognosis was death. So so let me ask you again what did you see?
Speaker 2:I saw healing.
Speaker 1:I saw it, I saw. Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to describe it. So here's here's. Here's what I. Here's what I see, like fireworks and sparks and stuff. No, it was. It was just very simple ointment um prayer, a lot of prayer, and then, overnight, uh, there was life. It wasn't like. It wasn't like rise and walk, you know, all right, get out of the chair like benny hinn, you know? Okay, I'm just saying that it was a solemn prayer. Here's what I'm asking.
Speaker 1:Did you get the idea that what you saw was supernatural, or did you see that somebody who was sick was diagnosed as going to die and then suddenly they didn't die? And you're calling that a healing, because people get healed every day?
Speaker 2:So what I'm saying is what in your mind was supernatural about what you saw.
Speaker 1:What was supernatural was. The diagnosis was imminent death.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it was just a diagnosis that fell apart. Yeah, I guess you could say that. Yeah, I mean, I guess you could say that you know. Yeah, I mean, I guess you could say that I'm not, I don't, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. You know overall, I I'm just saying that, like, I've witnessed some stuff and I've been a part of some stuff that I like question you know periodically and it's, it wasn't in that whole vein of like hey, you know, take these crutches and throw them and you know walk and that's all, that's all fake.
Speaker 1:We can agree that's all fake. You know, let me say something about this really quick.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go to you, Greg, because I know you had it yet that you put up the hand there. Let me put it to you this way, First of all. I don't believe anybody's doing any supernatural healing. No one. I don't believe that. I don't believe anybody I don't think.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's anybody, I think it's the lord. And if you don't, if you don't give credit, if you don't get credit to god, then why are we, his people, to pray and anoint?
Speaker 1:and you know what I'm saying. Hold on for a second. I'm not arguing.
Speaker 1:I'm not arguing that god doesn't heal people okay, there you go i'm'm not arguing that point OK, I'm saying that what he is not doing is is using a supernatural, a fusion at the agency or the hand of men today, the way he did back then. In other words, if somebody in other words, you know, I haven't seen anybody and I don't believe anybody is getting bit by serpent, going and putting their hand into the mouth of a serpent and getting bit, not dying from it.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:You get bit by a black mamba, I guarantee you nobody's going to survive that Right. All right. Now what I'm saying is if you get gored by a rhinoceros, what?
Speaker 2:I'm saying is, if you get gored by a rhinoceros.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen anybody get healed. I haven't seen anybody get thrown into a flame of fire and not get burnt. I've never seen anybody have a, a, a phalange, a phalange on their body grow back. So what I'm saying is what I'm saying is, more often than not, when you hear about these works that people say, let's say they are doing. There are things that no one can verify, but here's the problem. Here's the problem If a doctor makes a diagnosis and a person raises from that deathbed, maybe the doctor was just wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, but you can't take away from what God's power on earth can be by saying it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2:OK good.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that everybody, everybody, listen, everybody who supports this idea that these things continue to go on. They say the same things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They say the same thing and then they conclude that you're saying that god is not, that he's powerless. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is this when that which is perfect comes, that which is imperfect goes away well, think about this too, like does.
Speaker 3:Does god need to do anything through?
Speaker 1:a man meg hold on one second. Let me go to Greg and come back to you. Greg, go ahead.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So like I'm just going to use an example, like years ago I knew this, like I was in my 30s and there was this young couple in their 20s. They were newly married and they were believers and they were trying to have a kid, but they weren't able to do it and they asked me if I'd pray with them. So I did, and you know, I don't know, it wasn't much long later, a week or two later, she got. You know, she got pregnant.
Speaker 7:Now that wasn't because I have this gift of begetting or anything like that. I didn't put my hand on her head and say be pregnant, bring forth seed, you know anything like that. God does answer prayer, but that's completely different than a miraculous sign gift of healing, where a guy has a withered hand, you say, stretch forth your hand and it's good as new. Or a guy has leprosy and you touch him and the leprosy disappears. That's the kind of miraculous sign gift the apostles had, right, but God still does answer prayer Absolutely For those kinds of things. So you know, that's the distinction I just wanted to say.
Speaker 1:And that is a good way of articulating what I'm trying to convey, which is that one of the things that we need to understand and I forgot you, meg. But one thing we need to understand is this when God performed, when Jesus performed by his own hand or through the agency of one of his apostles, when he gave them a sign, when they, when they did something miraculous. Here's what you have to understand. These, these miraculous things, were called wonders, basically, and they recall that because they struck all In the, in the, in the, they struck all and those who witnessed it, meaning there was no way anybody would walk away and say that what they saw wasn't something that was different. They would say this is something that transcends the human experience. When God performed a sign, a wonder or a miracle, it suspended the natural order. If a doctor says you're going to die in two months and if after two months, you don't die, you live another 20 years, somebody might make the argument that that person was miraculously healed. Somebody else might say the doctor just got the diagnosis wrong. But what I'm saying? When God does something, there's absolutely no question. When you look at any miracle ever performed in the Bible, every miracle from the miracles performed with Moses, at the hand of Moses all the way to the hand of Paul and the apostles. When they did something, when Jesus did something, there was no mistaking it, no mistaking it. And I will say something else, one of the and what I haven't done yet, which I'm going to do after I let Evie say something, I'm going to lay out what the reasons for the miraculous gifts were. The reason, because we have to understand what the reasoning was. And so, and Todd, I want you to think about this when you say that you saw this miracle happen in this and many people have done this, I'm not picking on you, brother Many people have said that they saw something that was miraculous, but what I would do is point out why God did this.
Speaker 1:It wasn't arbitrariness on the part of our Lord that he turned water into wine. It wasn't arbitrary that he fed the 4,000 in one instance and 5,000 in another. There was no single miracle that was ever performed by any prophet, or by the Lord himself or any apostle, every single one of them. There was a reason for it. It wasn't just an arbitrary healing. There was an expected result that was intended for God's glory, and I want to get to that, but I'll get to that next once Evie says what she says what she has to say.
Speaker 5:To add. Meg was so right when she said that we have to be like extremely careful in times like these, because people get so confused and they over-spiritualize things and like there's manifestations that are people are thinking can happen, like they're like oh, I'm gonna, you know, you know, I'm gonna pray this traffic to another direction. I mean just like overdoing this whole experience that they think they need to have in order to have some type of ranking, because even those that believe that they can do this it's almost like they're going to the witch doctor brother, like you know, you think about they're going to profit such and such because he has a specific power or whatever. That's what people do when they're in idolatry, that they're going to these, you know shrines and people's houses that witch doctors like really they're the guys that wear the suits, and then you got to look at the Catholic church and they do all that too, and it's just. We just have to be careful because people are looking for this, and Meg showed something the other day when we was on a live together.
Speaker 5:She was like is this of God? And it was all of these people on this panel when they were all talking in tongues at the same time and we were talking about tongues and Meg was like is this of God, you know? And so if someone said, um, that's why prophets they, they stay in hiding today because people don't want to believe them, and you know they're. And I'm thinking what is going on. And then someone literally said on the live, and she's my witness some people, some of us, need signs and wonders today. And I was like whoa. So this is what I'm saying, like being cautious and understanding. So I'm glad your next point is what it is. I can't wait, I'm going to mute.
Speaker 6:All right, jonathan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead brother. Hey Brother Jerry, I meant to come to you, but go ahead, brother.
Speaker 6:Go ahead. Yes, sir, I wanted to say to Brother Todd, 13 years ago I was that case that he was talking about on the deathbed they were already making funeral arrangements For you. Yes, okay, and here I am today. So I believe in God healing, but you have to know the difference between a miracle in the Bible versus the healing of God that takes some time to come to fruition. Also, I'd just like to point out that in the gospels the healing was public. It wasn't nothing hid or in some private place, it was all over the place.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother, amen. That's exactly one of the things that I wanted to speak about and that's what I was getting at, jerry, when I was talking about how that the signs and the wonders and the miraculous, they were intended to strike awe in the public yes, so that everyone would know something was happening and that what you're seeing happening wasn't the result of some common occurrence or something that could be misconstrued. Remember the, the, the, the first two or three plagues in Exodus were mimicked and people were willing to take that to sort of. They could not have to worry about submitting to Moses and to Moses as God. They could not have to worry about submitting to Moses and to Moses is God. So for the first couple, you know, pharaoh thought see, my guys can do the same thing, but they found out something much different later on.
Speaker 4:Mariah, go ahead, sister. I want to second what Meg and Evie was saying, because being careful I guess like testing the spirits, and obviously when we get through the scripture, we would know how to identify those false apostles or prophets, you know, and a lot of the time you'll hear them say well, it's your faith, your lack of faith, that this miracle isn't being performed. Right, you know, I was. Isn't being performed.
Speaker 3:Right, you know I'm not going to say that, yep.
Speaker 4:And so that is dangerous to either that spiritual babe in Christ or something to say such words to them because they are wanting to claim an office that is not rightfully theirs to have in the first place.
Speaker 1:Right, meg, go ahead. You're going to add to that.
Speaker 3:No, I wanted to show y'all the video.
Speaker 1:What video?
Speaker 3:That video that I showed that Evie, and it's crazy. I've never seen anything like that. I want to show it to you guys so you guys can see for yourselves. If it's out of order, it's way out of order.
Speaker 1:Wait, can you send the video to everybody?
Speaker 3:Big, big scream me and I'll show it to you right now.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to get through this whole thing.
Speaker 3:But the other thing that's what I'm saying Like I've witnessed where people, where people have said, oh well, your faith is not, you need to pray more. You need to do that. I heard a woman who's praying for a child who had special needs to get healed and these people started praying and she's like I've been praying and you hear other believers telling her well, you just don't have enough faith, you gotta, you gotta keep. You know what I'm saying. And that's just, that's disheartening to somebody who's been on their knees praying for their child. And then you have other believers telling them that they don't have enough faith. That will turn people away.
Speaker 1:It's dangerous, no, that's. That's not only dangerous, that's wicked, that's. I mean, that's wicked, it's evil. You see and see, you know and you know, and I don't mind seeing the video, but I don't want to interrupt the flow. We got going here now because there are countless things that we can show on videos of people doing some of the dumbest things and people and people still believe it. They still believe it. People will hear what we're talking about. We'll show them scripture and I can, I can go go on this subject, on this subject alone, and prove there are no prophets, no apostles, all day long and no matter what happens, people will still rationalize because their experience is more important than the word.
Speaker 3:But look at this lady in the comments. She said I lived through my child unaliving and the church blamed me and my husband. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1:No, it's true, but this is what people do.
Speaker 1:This is what these people do, these liars and these pulpits they lie to people and they give them all of this mess and then when they get caught or something happens later on, it's funny, because they all have the gift of doing some miraculous things, but they don't have the gift of withstanding adultery themselves. You have the gifts of healing the sick and casting out demons, but you can't keep yourself from committing adultery. This is what happens in the pulpit today, claiming they have gifts. And let me say something else All these things don't matter one iota in terms of salvation. None of these things.
Speaker 1:Me believing that someone because I had a guy that was telling me one night on one of my lives that some of you guys might have been on where you're going to tell me that if I don't believe that he has a gift, then I'm denying God. I'm like no, I'm not denying God, I'm denying you. You're lying to people. And so a lot of people were saying we have to be careful. We don't have to be careful. It's very simple If they say they're a prophet, don't believe it, because there are no prophets. If they say they're an apostle, don't believe it, because there are no apostles today. So when people believe something that is contrary to what the word of God actually says. It comes down to that situation where the blind lead the blind and they both fall into the ditch. It's as simple as that. If you are unwilling to put in the time to study god's word, you're going to be led to. You're going to be led to follow any number of things which are contrary to god's truth. And all of us, all of us collectively, we, we know what's true, collect as a collective. In other words, I might get something, but I'm in fellowship with you, and the thing that I got wrong you might get right, but collectively we get to the truth, we eventually get there. And so it's such a frustrating thing that people are told these horrible things about things happening because you had a lack of faith. Well, jesus made it clear it doesn't matter if your faith is the size of a mustard seed or whether it's as gigantic as the universe. It's the same, because the object of our faith is the same, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ himself. So, as long as he is the object of the person's faith whose faith is the size of this mustard seed versus the size of 10 galaxies, it's the same faith, because it's the same object of the person's faith, whose faith is the size of this mustard seed versus the size of 10 galaxies. It's the same faith because it's the same object of faith the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about what prophecies, what the prophets and the apostles were about. Jesus, the Lord, used signs and wonders through the agency of prophets and apostles for two reasons, and only two reasons. Let me make sure you understand something he wasn't giving people a gift, gifts to show off. He wasn't giving them gifts to be an exhibition. He wasn't giving these gifts to put on some kind of a, of a, of a showcase, and he wasn't doing it for believers. And he wasn't doing it for believers.
Speaker 1:Signs were given for unbelievers, for unbelievers and, generally speaking, they were given to convince Jews. Generally, you will find that most of the Gentiles in the New Testament who came to faith didn't really need anything other than the Word of God. If you go back and look, you'll find that most of the Gentile believers who came to faith, they came without the need to believe, through the agency of a miracle. It was often. It was often in most cases, and I'm saying that because I could be. There might be a couple that I, as a general rule, the disciples and the other Jews. They seem to have needed these signs and these wonders. The Gentiles didn't need it. The word of God was enough for them. It was enough. But here are the big reasons, and I'll come to you, evie next. Here are the two things.
Speaker 1:God used signs, wonders and miracles to do two things, and in this order One, to authenticate his messenger, to make sure he wanted everyone to understand that the one who is going to be giving the message from God, he wanted you to know that this is the person who I'm giving it to. So one the first thing is to authenticate and to give credibility to his messenger, to his messenger, and then, in conjunction with that, to validate that the message that is coming by way of this messenger is coming from God, directly, infallibly. In other words, the signs, wonders and miracles were meant to do primarily two things To indicate who God's messenger is and, number two, that the message that they have is coming from God. And so he says this is what we're going to do. We're going to have you do this thing so that people will know that I sent you and that the message you're going to give them comes from me. The whole reason. That is it.
Speaker 1:It wasn't just for the sake of healing a person. Remember that. Remember with the blind man who was born blind, and they asked Christ. You know, when the disciples asked him, why was this guy born blind? And all this kind of stuff, jesus said the whole reason that that person was born blind was for that very moment when Christ would heal him. Why was that so important? Because no one would doubt that when Christ did it, that the healing was from God and that Jesus, the one that was doing the healing, was the one sent by God. And it will resonate in the mind of those who remember Isaiah talking about what the Messiah would do. It wasn't just a whimsical offering that Christ gave to people and that God gave to people so they can show off their abilities. Evie, you were going to say something.
Speaker 5:I have a question because this is a really tough one for me, only because I haven't got this. I mean, I totally agree with you 100%, but there is some people that I will still consider my brothers and sisters and I spoke to my sister about it as well, because she's one that had a veryed in her thinking and you know, so she can talk about these experiences and what she says is that sometimes in an emotion, even when she's alone, that you know she would speak in a tongue, right, and I'm like, but do you do that now? And she's like no, and I read about it. Right, I do see that the tongues and the interpretation is for, you know, the speaker to give the language unknown to the person you know, like you were saying like, if I'm in China and I don't know that language and I'm going to share the gospel and God uses me for such and such, you know, you see that in Acts 2. But then we also see the gift of interpretation that there should be somebody in 1 Corinthians 14, 27. So I'm just wondering that interpretation, I'm wondering the meaning of that.
Speaker 5:And then, if you go to 1 Corinthians 13, right at one, it says if I speak in the tongues of man and of angels. I have heard this before. People are saying that these are two separate, different things, which I've never experienced this myself, so I can't agree. And what I see today in scripture? The canon is closed, as you and I talked about before. So my question is have you heard of that? Do you think that these two things are different things? Because it reads on to say but if I speak in tongues of man and angels but not have love, I am like a noisy gong symbol. So I'm kind of going to just answer that for me, if you can. I don't know if I asked it correctly, but I hope you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:The Apostle Paul was condemning the use of the time, because what he was saying is this Because people it's funny, because the verse you talked about people take it as a positive passage. It's not. It's very negative. Paul is basically saying listen, I don't care if you speak 50 languages, I don't care if you speak the language of angels. If you speak and no one understands what you're saying, it is useless. That's all that Paul was saying. That's all he was saying. And he said I thank God that I speak more. I speak more with more languages than any of you, but I would rather speak one word that you understand than to speak multiple words that no one understands. It might look good for me to show off in front of people and see that I show off this gift I have, but he's saying that if it doesn't land and see what I mean by landing meaning that, as I said earlier, the reason for we have these gifts that people have was to authenticate the message, and to authenticate I mean authenticate the messenger and the message. So if you are witnessing some miraculous gift, there needs to be something to show us that the person who's doing it is from God and has been appointed by God directly. Number one and number two, that the message that they've given is coming from God and that message is infallible. And this is the key thing, that that message is infallible. And last I checked there is no word that any man can be spoken that comes outside of this Bible. That is infallible.
Speaker 1:No one can tell me that they got a word of knowledge from God. I'm going to tell you keep it to yourself, I don't need to hear it me that they got a word of knowledge from God. I'm gonna tell you, keep it to yourself. I don't need to hear, because the only way you will give me a word of knowledge, word of knowledge, is if you tell me chapter and verse. That's the only way, because the Word of God thoroughly, truly, furnishes the man of God for every good work. As I said earlier, greg and then Mariah, oh, no, greg. Yeah, greg, you go ahead, greg.
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's the. You know the way you can recognize it. It's. You know Paul talks about those who want to draw disciples after a way after themselves. These people, all they want to do is call attention to themselves. Right, but you know any anyone who's or you know a genuine, you know called to any kind of ministry. They're not gonna, they're not gonna draw attention to themselves. They're going to point you to the word and point you to Christ. That's it. So you just ask yourself where are the? Is this guy trying to make a name for himself or is he trying to make Christ known?
Speaker 1:That's right and and see, and that's a. That's a big point. And it goes hand in hand with what big gravy was saying was that this was like, it's not about drawing attention to yourself, and the intention of it was to be made present in front of the public. It was meant to be public. Look at what christ did. Very little he did in terms of the miraculous was done in a corner. He did it openly, which is why he can say what do you, you know? For what are you? What are you accusing me of these things? For? Everything I did, I did out in the open. I didn't hide it from anybody.
Speaker 1:And here's something else I'll say about a miracle. One thing that I said is that, about a miracle of any type, it is the, the. In order for it to take place, god is has to suspend the natural order. Okay, this is important. God suspends the natural order. In other words, that which is natural is arrested and given away to the supernatural, meaning. Something that is taking place is otherworldly, so it's something that only God can do. Now here's my point about this If miracles from the inception, going back to Moses, were continuing until the Lord, jesus Christ, returns, we could not call it a miracle anymore. It would be part of the natural system.