The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
False Prophets and Parlor Tricks: Confronting Modern Spiritual Fraud
The question of whether apostles and prophets exist today strikes at the foundation of church doctrine. Through a powerful exploration of Ephesians 2:20-22, we uncover why these offices were foundational but not perpetual in God's design for His church.
At the heart of this theological exploration is a simple construction principle: a foundation can only be laid once. The apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone, established the foundation upon which the entire church would be built. This isn't just metaphorical language—it's a profound truth that reshapes how we understand spiritual authority and biblical revelation today.
The conversation dives deep into practical implications. When believers chase after modern "apostles" and "prophets," they're often distracted from the completed Word of God, seeking validation through supposed spiritual gifts rather than growing in biblical understanding. This creates Christians vulnerable to deception, looking for miraculous experiences instead of standing firmly on Scripture's authority.
We examine specific examples of contemporary figures claiming apostolic authority and prophetic gifts, revealing how their teachings often contradict biblical principles while drawing followers away from Scripture's sufficiency. The discussion is both passionate and pastoral, concerned with protecting believers from those who would redirect their faith toward human personalities rather than divine truth.
The qualifications for apostleship—being eyewitnesses of Christ's resurrection and appointed directly by Him—make it clear these offices were temporary by design. Understanding this doesn't diminish the church's vitality but enhances our appreciation for God's complete revelation. Today, we aren't laying new foundations but building upon the established one as "living stones" in God's spiritual house.
Ready to strengthen your biblical understanding? Subscribe now and join our community of believers committed to standing firm on God's unchanging Word rather than chasing after modern spiritual fads and false teachers.
natural order. These things weren't intended to be something that was to become the norm. Otherwise they wouldn't be miraculous anymore. There would be something that was introduced into the natural system, the natural way of doing things. But you know, and there are arguments that people will make for and against that, but generally speaking, once something becomes systematic, it is no longer miraculous, it's the norm.
Speaker 1:So let me go to Ephesians, chapter 2. Ephesians, chapter 2. And this is to me, this does it for me. But Ephesians, chapter 2. And I'm going to read verses 20 through 21. I mean 20 through 22. And then I'm going to, before I comment on it, I'm going to ask people, I'm going to ask everybody on the panel, what you think it means, what you think it means within this context of what we're talking about, because the context that we're talking about is absolutely and unequivocally relevant, is absolutely and unequivocally relevant.
Speaker 1:So in Ephesians, chapter two, in verse 19, paul says now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. Verse 20, having been built, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone in whom the whole building being fitly, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit, and we are referred to as lively stones in this building. So now, reading this passage in the context of what we're talking about do prophets and apostles still exist today? I want you to look at these verses that I just read, and I'm sure you may be remembering what I just read. What do you think? How do you think this proves that there are no longer any apostles and no longer any prophets? I'm gonna start with Mariah. I'll start with you.
Speaker 2:I would just like to say can you lay a foundation twice?
Speaker 1:That's all you need to say. Amen, that's all you need to say, brother DT. How about you? What's your thoughts on this passage?
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, I was reviewing something else at the time. I uh the past.
Speaker 1:All right, no problem, sister, may your thoughts.
Speaker 5:I mean I think Mariah answered pretty well. I mean short and sweet, but I mean, when it comes to laying foundation, the foundation was Jesus Christ and it's kind of like wait hold on. Read the passage. Okay, let's go to it. Ephesians what.
Speaker 1:Chapter two read verse 20. Okay, Hold on.
Speaker 5:Ephesians 2.20. Okay, all right. It says now, therefore, you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto and holy temple in the Lord.
Speaker 1:All right, now start over again, not reading it, but now tell me what you think about what this verse is suggesting, about what we've been talking about.
Speaker 5:So I think here it's talking about like when it says we're not strangers and foreigners, that Gentiles are no longer alienated from God that Gentiles are no longer alienated from God. What?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to get at is your understanding. What does verse 20 mean in the context of what we're talking about in terms of the existings of prophets and apostles today?
Speaker 5:So the church's foundation is composed of the apostles and the prophets and the chief cornerstone is Christ. So what do we know about a foundation, sister? What is a foundation composed of the apostles and the prophets and the chief?
Speaker 1:cornerstone is Christ. So what do we know about a foundation, sister? What is a foundation?
Speaker 5:I'm in construction. I think that's a great question. When a foundation is laid, there's nothing else. That number one can move it. Rains come, storms come. If the house blows down down, that foundation is still there.
Speaker 1:How many? How many foundations does a structure have?
Speaker 5:one, that's it. You sure I'm positive. Now, I mean, if we add to the slab and put a patio on the back.
Speaker 1:I mean that might be something else, but once the foundation is set, it's set you might add a slab, but even if you add a slab or whatever, you can't build on top of, on top of a foundation until the foundation is done. Amen, absolutely evie. What are your thoughts on the on the foundation? What does that mean to you about prophets and apostles?
Speaker 3:well, it just means that to me. Basically, what I feel it means is we got to remember the book in a whole, you know as a whole. And so when we're looking at the Old Testament being the foundational part, we know that in Christ is the revelation built on the foundation which you know. We see that from the prophecies that were fulfilled in truth. And so, looking at it as a whole, I think we have to remember, just like Sister Mariah said, there can only be one foundation. And looking at the book in its entirety, we have to know that Christ is the cornerstone. He was the. You know the name of God, he, you know. There's just so much, and I can just go on and go on. So that just means that you know we're a part of this, we're a part of this. You know great revelation that God had for his people.
Speaker 1:Amen, jerry. How are you doing, brother? How about what's your thoughts on it, because I know you got some wisdom you can shed on this.
Speaker 6:Let me share why this all makes sense to me. If, when you study the New Testament system about the apostles, what you will learn? Not only could they speak in other languages, god gave them only the gift to lay hands, to impart spiritual gifts. Once the last apostle passed, no one had the power to pass on spiritual gifts. The people that received the spiritual gifts did not have the ability to pass the gifts forward. So when they unalive, that was it and that's what he was talking about in 1 Corinthians 13 chapter. And so no, there are no apostles today, no prophets. What would you need them for when you got the complete revelation of God, absolutely?
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, it's funny because all of us, all of us should definitely be able to rally around things like this, because we're not talking about some, some interpretation of some, some random words, whether or not we understand it properly in greek or the hebrew or aramaic or just any other. We're not talking about the apologetics of the order of the bible and who who authorized the canonicity of a particular book. This is something that every Christian should understand, should understand. Somebody asked me what about Geno Jennings? Geno Jennings is not an apostle, he's a false apostle. He's false in every aspect. He's a bloviating person that spouts a lot of things and he may give a lot of practical wisdom and insight, but so does Tony Robbins. So does so, does what's his face? Joe Lowstein?
Speaker 6:Benny Hinn.
Speaker 1:Benny Hinn, everybody, every wicked prophet person who calls himself a prophet and apostle, they can all say something that is true. This is what they do. They give you enough. Geno Jennings is a fraud and he can bluster and bloviate all he wants to, and I used to have nightmares of wanting to have a debate with that guy in person.
Speaker 5:I used to dream about it. So what about people like, like, what about things that talk about, like deliverance ministry? You know, you have a spirit of this and of this, listen, meg.
Speaker 1:It's all fake and false, it's all fraudulent, all of it.
Speaker 5:I say the same thing, but you let them people talk and they'll tell you something different it's not biblical.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something. If anybody tells's not biblical, let me tell you something If anybody tells you to rely on anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ and the spirit of God in you and his word, they're lying to you. They're lying to you Everyone who is listening, anyone who tells you that they know or you should go meet their prophet or their apostle, they are lying to you. Anybody tells you that you're not a Christian if you don't speak in tongues is lying to you. They're liars and they are distracting you, unbeknownst to yourself, from the word of God. Because when people believe that they are doing all these little gifts, they feel that that is the evidence of their spirituality, and their spirituality has everything to do with what they believe from the word of God. And having these little so-called and quote unquote gifts takes people away from believing they have a need to go any deeper in the word of God than they already have, because their evidence that God is with them is their miraculous gift. So when you fall into that trap, you are being deceived and to me, anybody who is doing this is not a Christian. I'm saying it plainly these are not Christians and we need to start recognizing apostates, or at least people who dress up like apostates. You had this guy, mark Todd or whatever. The guy is coming on on his thing and, you know, wearing women's clothes, yes, and people in his message or in his congregation clapping it on like he's doing something good, because he's progressive and he's showing that he can go against the word of God and be okay with that. I saw this same man, the same man, mike Todd Mike Todd, that's his name, mike Todd Dressing him like a woman, like singing. And people believe in this nonsense. They believe it because they don't want to do the work of a student of God's work. Praying is hard. Reading the scriptures is hard. Being engaged in fellowship with other believers is hard. Being faithful when it seems like God is taking everything away from you is hard. They're not telling you this. They're not telling you this. They're telling you that if things aren't going your way, it's because your faith is lacking. And the evidence that you have faith is you're able to perform these little tricks, these little parlor tricks. Come in the back room, get on your knees, let's say this little prayer, start moving your lips. This thing you know. I bought a Honda. I bought a Honda. I bought a Honda foolishness.
Speaker 1:In Ephesians, chapter 2, it's very simple. We are built upon. The church is built upon the foundation of two groups of people the prophets and the apostles. The foundation has been laid and the building of the temple that is being built upon this foundation cannot even start until the foundation has been laid, has been laid. And if the foundation is not complete, then we would have to say and agree with people who would argue that we do have apostles and prophets. So the issue is this is the foundation laid or is it not? If somebody can look up the verse, can you find the verse and put it up on the screen that says there is no other foundation laid other than that which was laid by the Lord Jesus Christ? If you can find, that verse.
Speaker 1:Please bring it up, because I can't think of it off my head. But my point is. My point is this the foundation has been laid, the foundation cannot be. I mean the building Upon which the foundation is to be built Cannot begin Building unless, unless the foundation has been laid and completed. Now here, go ahead and read the verse Meg 1 Corinthians 3.
Speaker 5:Yeah, 1 Corinthians 3.11. It says. It says For other foundation can no man lay that is laid, which is in Jesus Christ. Now, if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, haste double, every man's work shall be made manifest, for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's works what sort it is.
Speaker 1:Now let me ask you a question, meg. Since you found the verse, let me ask you the question what does that verse indicate to you about the establishment of the foundation?
Speaker 5:For other foundation can no man lay. That means once the foundation is laid, there is no man, nothing else that can lay it but the apostles, prophets and Christ that were there at the time.
Speaker 1:Right, but here's what I'm. Here's what I'm getting at. Here's what I'm getting at when the foundation is laid, as you see, in this passage in corinthians, as you just read, it talks about men building upon that foundation and it's talking about the quality of those things that they built on top of that foundation. And it's talking about believers, right, he's talking about the quality of what they bring to the construction Gold, silver, bronze, wood, hay, stubble, etc. But nobody can build on that unless the foundation has been laid. That's what he's saying. It assumes Paul assumes in that passage that because the foundation has already been laid, that men are now able to build on that foundation, amen.
Speaker 5:And then let's go back to isaiah, because then I thought of this. Isaiah 28, 14, says therefore thus saith the lord, behold, I lay in z in Zion for a foundation, a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation. He that believeth shall not make haste.
Speaker 1:Let me say something about what you just read, because this is an important point. If the foundation, which is the apostles and the prophets, if it has not been laid, then Jews, the Jews today, would be right in that the Messiah hasn't come, because the Lord Jesus Christ is the cornerstone Of that foundation. And so two elements have to happen the foundation is laid and the cornerstone has been set and established, and in that day the cornerstone was the most important part of the whole construction. And the cornerstone is the lord jesus christ. The foundation has been laid. If the foundation has not been laid, then Christ has not come. I agree he hasn't come. And so Brother Greg says how firm a foundation you, saints of the Lord, is laid for your faith in his excellent word. I like this because, also, if the foundation hasn't been laid, what are we building our faith upon?
Speaker 5:Sand.
Speaker 1:I don't know what else to say. We are told about Christ giving. Christ gives, excuse me, gives us the direction for how to build something. He says to build it on a firm foundation, a rock. But if we still have apostles and prophets running around, that means the foundation has not been set and we still have yet to build anything upon and we would not be lively stones, at least not yet.
Speaker 1:But I'm using the language that our Lord used and I'm using the language that Paul uses in several places in the verse you read in Corinthians and also here in Ephesians. But he makes it established firmly in our mind that the church is to be built on a firm foundation where Christ is a cornerstone. And you don't put the cornerstone in place until. If you know about Old Testament, about the old construction, you don't put in the cornerstone until the foundation is built. So if the prophets and apostles are still laying the foundation, then that means the cornerstone is not in place. If the cornerstone is not in place, then none of us talking right now are limestone in this building, in this construction, and none of us are building anything on top of it.
Speaker 1:You don't have to be a genius to understand this. It wasn't meant to be. It wasn't meant to be required to be a genius to understand this. You don't need to go into the Greek to understand that a foundation must be laid in order to build something on top of it, but there are certain men in this world who would have you believe this, and here's something I'll say it's funny because people talk about like, for instance, the Great Tribulation right, and I'm making a point with this so many Christians who hold on to this doctrine of this great of the Great tribulation.
Speaker 1:There is not one instance that we can look at in the Bible where there is a definite article used Before tribulation, not one Before tribulation, not one. The Bible only mentions great tribulation once, in Matthew 24. And even then it is not preceded by a definite article. I'm saying this for people who are seminary students or students of the language. But there is no definite article preceding tribulation. But you know where there is a definite? Do you know where there's a definite article used in almost every instance in the scriptures preceding apostles. So in most verses, in most of the verses, when you see the apostles, you will see it preceded by the apostles. This is what I mean by the definite article. It's always the apostles. It's a specific, carved out group of people. You have millions of Christians who believe that there's going to be the great tribulation and that definite article never precedes tribulation anywhere in the Bible.
Speaker 5:What is, what is? Uh? Benjamin asked what's a definite article?
Speaker 1:it's like the or, a or, and you know something that is that is, that is specific, that is specifying, um, something that is specifying something, uh, absolute, an absolute number or context. So it's speaking to something specifically. So when you say the 12th, so when you say the 12, you're talking about specifically the 12. You see what I mean and so. But my point is, you have people who insist on there being apostles continually.
Speaker 5:When the Bible, when Christ speaks about his apostles and whatever he's always talking about the 12.
Speaker 1:He does say that I was just reading that actually the 12, the 12, the 12. And people refuse to believe it. However, when it comes to the tribulation, everyone's convinced that it is the tribulation that we need to look forward to, and yet the definite article never precedes it, never precedes it, never precedes it. Here's what I got to do because I'm getting. I went over because I love this subject so much, but I have to go handle some business.
Speaker 1:What I want to do is I'm going to wrap it up here, I'm going to give everybody their last word and then I'll pick up with this again tomorrow and finish this because I think it's such a worthwhile subject to talk about. Primarily because I think that if we get it right subject to talk about, primarily because I think that if we get it right, then what it does is it causes us to elevate the word of God to a higher degree of appreciation in our minds and to a higher degree of our willingness to see God glorified in a way that can be a step more than what we have today. So I got to get going, something I got pressing, but I wanted to thank everybody for their kind attention, but I do want to give everybody, if you could be brief, your last word. So I'll start with you, meg.
Speaker 5:Last word. Matthew, chapter 10, 16 and 17. And 17. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be the year for wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and they will scourge you in the synagogues, and ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Speaker 1:Man. Awesome Greg. Last word brother.
Speaker 4:So beware of those who spend more time convincing you that they're a Christian than they do convincing you that Jesus is the Christ.
Speaker 1:And they do, convincing you that Jesus is the Christ. I like that one. That's a good one. I like that DT last word, brother.
Speaker 6:Once predestined, always predestined. I like that one.
Speaker 2:Mariah, last word, Just reiterating Ephesians two, 20. It says having been built, and those are already we know pretense. And then it says in whom you are also being built. We are continuing on top of that foundation.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, candy girl, last word Amen.
Speaker 7:Candy girl. Last word I'm going to go to 2 Thessalonians. Man, I would suggest everybody go to 2 Thessalonians and at least read chapter 2 and 3. Because when it comes to what we've talked about tonight, man, when I tell you that, hit home, that is like whoa. But with that being said, chapter three. Pray for us.
Speaker 2:So one through four.
Speaker 7:pray for us that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorious, glorified, just as it is with with you, and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men, for not all have faith, but the lord is faithful. Who will establish you and guard you from the evil one? And we may have confidence in the lord, concerning you both, that you do and will do the things we command you, which is everything in this Bible that was left for us to, as if they were walking with us, because this word is living. And who did it? The foundation was built on the prophecies and the apostles that walked and talked with God and the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Through all of it we have within us and, with that being said, that is one essence of God, and when we get that one essence, we get all three of the one in one in us to walk with us, no matter where we go. So, brothers and sisters, love y'all Amen.
Speaker 1:And Meg, if you can remind me tomorrow, remind me to start off with the qualifications of an apostle. If you can remember, I got you. I don't want to forget that. Alright, brother Todd, last word.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't want to forget that. All right, brother Todd. Last word Jesus said that he has fulfilled the law of the prophets, the law and the prophets, and beyond that there is no other prophecy, there's no other foundation than him. With that said, when two or more gather, my presence is with you. When two or more gather in my name and a threefold cord cannot be broken, ask and it will, and if you truly believe, it will be given to you. That is a hope that we can all have when we're faced in those critical times where you pray over somebody's potential death or pray for whatever is in your life. That is a hindrance and God wants to remove that.
Speaker 4:What I worry about? I don't disagree with apostles or the prophecy, but what I fear is, if you don't believe revelation has been fulfilled yet, when Elijah and Moses or Elijah and Enoch come and they begin to perform these miracles, will the church have unbelief because we are so hard to heart to say that this isn't something that would will happen in the future? So I I believe in that. I love you all and I appreciate the time that you gave me to share.
Speaker 1:I definitely want to have a conversation it won't be tomorrow, cause I want to finish this one up for sure but I definitely want to do one about those two witnesses you're talking about, cause I don't believe that that's what they are, but I'll but I'll bring that up another day, another day yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 4:That's cool I yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's probably where people have different perspectives on that right like we'll have, we'll bring it up, I get you, I get you, because it's all about making each other think that's what we want to do.
Speaker 4:It won't be the change yeah, well, you got me sister evie you too, brother, yeah good night evie yeah, this was.
Speaker 3:This was definitely edifying tonight. Guys, thank you so much and I'm so glad to be a part of um your lives. So the foundation you know what the Old Testament was talking about will happen and we know that this revelation is here, built on the foundation, and we know that what we believe is true and we can rest in that and we don't have to overdo spiritualism. There was 70-something at one point listening, and I'm sure that there were so many that were really writing these things down and questioning and saying can I go back to scripture? Lord, can you reveal this to me? Can you make this revelation, as you did for these people, because some people were brought up in these false movements. The new apostolic reformation there's many, you know. The new apostolic reformation you know there's many, and so I think that we need to be, we need to understand that when Christ came, he came to fulfill the prophecy and we know that we can rest in that truth today, yeah, so thanks, guys.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. Big gravy, last word, you got the last of the last.
Speaker 6:Yes, if possible, please set aside your emotions, your feelings and your opinions and trust in the Lord alone with all of your heart, and don't trust your own understanding. Lean not to your own understanding, but in all your ways. If you'll acknowledge him, he will straighten your path.
Speaker 5:I miss that verse, big baby let me, let me say one.
Speaker 1:Let me, let me say my last word, and this is real quick, brother gravy, and my, my last word has to do with you. I am glad the lord spared you because if he didn't, I wouldn't be able to have you here and we wouldn't be had these conversations. So, brother, I'm thinking I'm thankful that he gave you the years that you, that you still have, because I able to have you here and we wouldn't be able to have these conversations. So, brother, I'm thankful that he gave you the years that you still have, because I get to know you and I appreciate it, thank you brother, I love you Donna.
Speaker 5:Me too, brother. I love you brother.
Speaker 1:All right, you guys. God bless you all. I look forward to whoever can be around tomorrow, but I want to. I'm going to wrap this subject up tomorrow and it is actually a good time because it'll be about equal time. But anyway, if you can make it tomorrow, love to have you and you guys. Have a good night and be blessed tonight.
Speaker 5:God bless y'all and be persuaded, and be persuaded. Bye guys.