The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Abundant Pardon: Why True Salvation Cannot Be Lost
The question of eternal security—whether a believer can lose their salvation—isn't just theological nitpicking. It strikes at the very heart of how we understand God's character, His promises, and the nature of the gospel itself.
When Jesus speaks of taking His yoke upon us, He's describing an unbreakable bond that fundamentally changes how we view our relationship with Him. We surrender everything—our identity, desires, worldly attachments—and in return, receive something that can never be taken away. As the conversation explores, "property doesn't have a say in what the owner does with it," and believers become Christ's property through His sacrifice.
This podcast dives deep into the biblical foundations for eternal security. The panelists examine key passages like Romans 8 ("no condemnation for those in Christ"), Isaiah 55 (God's "abundant pardon"), and the "golden chain" of salvation described in Romans 8:28-30. Together, these scriptures paint a picture of salvation not as something we achieve or maintain, but as God's work from beginning to end.
Perhaps most powerfully, the discussion addresses a profound question: If Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to save us initially, how could it suddenly become insufficient? If salvation could be lost, it would mean Jesus might need to "go back to the cross" because His first sacrifice wasn't enough—a concept that contradicts everything scripture teaches about the finality and completeness of His work.
For those who have struggled with doubts about their salvation or lived under the constant fear of losing it, this conversation offers sweet relief. Understanding God's unbreakable grip doesn't lead to license for sin but to freedom—freedom to serve Him out of gratitude rather than fear, and to rest in the knowledge that our eternal destiny is secure in His hands.
What has your experience been with this teaching? Has the fear of losing salvation ever affected your relationship with God?
And they end up. They end up at a place realizing what they get, before Christ, and he realized that they weren't doing what they were doing out of service and out of love to him, but they were doing it to garner love for themselves, so that people can give them whatever it is they want, whatever it is they're selling, and so that's just the way it goes. But if we, in the reality is, we can't know who they are, but Christ did build in a mechanism into his word for us to know, because he tells us they will go out from us, so that we will know that they will never of us. Their departure will be the evidence that they never belonged to Christ, and that's what you should look at when you see these people. Brother Jeffrey, you there. Hey, man, sorry, you got disconnected. I didn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't boot you out, brother.
Speaker 2:No, tiktok's been like dropping it.
Speaker 4:It did that to me for a couple days too okay, yeah, no, I so I didn't do that I haven't been on tiktok for a few days, guys, so I hadn't heard anything about it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that with me yeah, no, so, uh, what do you want to add? You want to add it's been a while since you put it. Got to put in some comments. What are you thinking so far?
Speaker 4:uh, well, again, I. I think you've given us a lot to think about tonight. But I, going back to the yoke, you know it's the fact that when we are yoked with him, he's the one that leads us and guides us through life. And yet that yoke, when we walk in it, it renews us constantly. Right, renews us constantly, and I think all of us, at one point or another, need that renewing, or at least I know that I do. I can tell you right now, jonathan, I'm dealing with some things that have rattled me greatly. I'd like to talk to you about it tomorrow. But getting back to the topic of the yoke, we put that yoke on and it stays there because Jesus owns us. Amen, brother, he has ownership papers over our lives. You see what I'm saying. When we come to him, we trust him as Lord and Savior. I mean, he owns us. You know, every day our attitude should be lord. How can I serve you today?
Speaker 1:let me ask something today. I'm excited that you said that. Let me tell you. Let me tell you why, please. Christians don't understand what the bible means when it says we were bought with a price. You know, angie just said we are his property. Property doesn't have a say in what the owner does with it. He has made us his peculiar people that he paid a debt to obtain and he is not going to take what he purchased and allow it to be relinquished in any way. How people can read in John and this verse comes up I say this a lot to everybody when Jesus says even if one of my sheep go away, I will leave the 99 to go bring them back. How can anybody reconcile that with losing salvation? They can't.
Speaker 4:They can't, they can't, can't be done. Yeah Well, again, let's go back to the point, jonathan, that you have made before. Again, let's go back to the point, jonathan, that you have made before. If you could lose your salvation, if you could, then does that not mean Jesus has got to go back to the cross and do the whole thing over again to buy us back, because he didn't do it enough or properly the first time. Right?
Speaker 5:Earlier. When I said Romans, it was actually Galatians. Galatians 2, 19 through 21.
Speaker 1:And I'm done. Two. All right, for I, through the law, died for the law that I might live to God. I had been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for righteousness comes through the law. Christ died in vain. Another home run sister. Another home run sister. Another home run. Another home run, lisa. I got a question for you, sister, okay. I got a. I got a question for you, okay, uh. And, by the way, somebody in here says what about the myriad of scriptures that refer to losing salvation? Somebody named trav, brother. I don't know what Bible you've been reading, but there's nothing in the Bible that talks about losing salvation, brother, none.
Speaker 6:None, I haven't seen that.
Speaker 1:None, none, and we can talk about it anytime you're ready. But let me go back to you, lisa, and ask you a question when you take on the yoke of Christ, when you take on the yoke of Christ, what are you giving up? Because you can't take on anything without giving up the other thing. So, when you take on the yoke of Christ, what is it that we're giving up?
Speaker 6:We give up this world. Okay, we give up the world. We give up our fleshly desires. We crucify our flesh every day. We follow him in his spirit.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Brother Gray, what do we give up?
Speaker 7:Well, the things we're laden with and burdened with right. Right Is an unbeliever burdened by their sin. No, Are they Right? No, they're not burdened by their sin, they're not laden by that, they relish in it. Right, it's the believer that's burdened right by sin.
Speaker 1:And so that's what we give up. Somebody in the comments now, neighbor, she says um, we give up our identity. I like that. I like that we do, we do, we give it up, we give, we give, we give up ourselves. What we also we give, we. We turn our backs on everything and everyone that opposes our Lord. Everything, that's the people, that's the world. Like Sister Lisa said, it's all these things.
Speaker 1:Isaiah 55. He says this in verse 7 let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man even his thoughts, and let him return unto the lord, and he will have mercy upon him and to our god, for he will abundantly pardon. Now I got a guy in here who keeps trying to prove to me that the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation, which is nonsense. But here's what I want, here's what I, here's what I would say. What does it mean to receive, like we see here in Isaiah 55, 7? What is an abundant pardon? What is an abundant pardon? What does that mean to you, meg? An abundant pardon. It would have been enough to just say you've been pardoned. But what the word of God says? An abundant pardon.
Speaker 2:I would say more than pardoned.
Speaker 1:More than pardoned. But when you read that, when you read that, when you read that, what does it intimate Like it is more than a pardon, but more in what regard Right?
Speaker 2:I think that you should read Hebrews 6, 4 through 6.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he doesn't know what that means. Calm down, that's a good one. No, no, we can deal with all of that when we talk about this.
Speaker 2:Only two verses, Trav. We've talked about this. I've talked about this with him.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know this gentleman.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Very well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he doesn't know the word of God, god. But let's get back to this abundant pardon, because pardon is all about forgiveness. And he tells us it's abundant and I believe that the abundant part of it is the abundant part is this that it means that that pardon, to me, has no end, no conclusion. It lasts, it doesn't fall apart, it doesn't unravel, like this brother here is talking about that. It does. And here's the problem I'm sure many of you people have seen, like Greg says, more than sufficient, it goes beyond and you said that, maggie, it goes beyond. To make sure that you understand that, that the net that is that is below the believer is so wide it is impossible to fall out of it, impossible.
Speaker 1:Now, this gentleman here, this guy that calls himself Trav, he's throwing up verses, all of which are very familiar, none of which that imply anything about losing salvation. None of them. But here's the thing In his mind, that's gospel. None of which that imply anything about losing salvation. None of them. But here's the thing In his mind, that's gospel. Can you imagine the gospel message being you can lose your salvation Calling that gospel? Think about that for a second. How is that?
Speaker 7:good news. There will be a lot of boasting in heaven, all the people boasting that they were good enough to keep it.
Speaker 1:All those ghosts that said did we do this in your name? Did we do that in your name? What happened to them? You see what I mean the idea that the spirit see. Here's the thing. If you are a Christian, that means well, put it this way, if you call yourself a Christian, being a true Christian is the result of the Holy Spirit being in you. The question that I ask to this guy and others like him is this If the Spirit of God is in you that the Father and the Son sent to seal you, what does that mean?
Speaker 4:It means this, jonathan, and you talked about this recently it means we are justified, and justified means just as if I had never sinned Exactly that is so basic. So very, very basic. And yet, brother, why are there so many people that simply can't or refuse to accept that?
Speaker 1:They can't, because see to me, and I'm going to tell you something straight up Like this guy that was here talking, or whatever his name was that right there, like he's, he posted a bunch of verses that he believes is telling us means that we can lose our salvation. You want to know what anti-christian is? That's it, amen that's it, jonathan.
Speaker 6:Can I say something really quick just about the people that want to? You know you have a panel up here that is confident in their salvation in the lord. We believe what scripture says. You got a couple in the comments who insist, insist. We can lose it, and it's, it's silliness, because it's those who who trust the word of God. We're going to believe it. So I mean you're, you're, you're putting these comments in the chat in vain. You, you probably need to go in a in a group where you're all like-minded but cause you're not going to change anyone's mind on this panel and hopefully not other people in the chat, because we are confident, we believe what our Lord did for us and that's it.
Speaker 1:See they? They think that somehow it's a attack on us or me. Yeah, it's not the answer to the Lord when they stand before him. Somehow it's an attack on us or me, it's not.
Speaker 6:They have to answer to the Lord when they stand before him. That's a stumbling block, a big one, if I've ever seen it.
Speaker 2:What if he said you thought you could lose your salvation. Well, I have mercy, who I have mercy upon. I'm going to show you you can Boom.
Speaker 4:Listen. If I could lose my salvation, jesus' body, is still in the grave, you understand.
Speaker 1:If anybody could lose their salvation, they would. Yes, that guy. The question I ask people like him is this they say you can lose your salvation, and they say that you can lose your salvation because you turn it in or you get a refund or whatever language they want to use. Whatever language they want to use regardless is stupid. It's not true, but here's the thing. My question is then are you telling me that you have the ability to lose your salvation, but you haven't? So if you have the ability to lose your salvation and you have it how is it that you maintain it?
Speaker 2:But here's the thing Catholics if you talk to Catholic people and Orthodox people and you ask them do you have salvation? And they say I would like to think I do. They are not sure.
Speaker 5:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Every single one, then I would have to ask them the question then how do you explain God being a rewarder of them who diligently seek him and that faith is a substance of things hoped for? Who diligently seek him and that faith is the substance of things hoped for? See, this is a problem where people don't understand what faith really is. Faith is the belief that if you trust Christ for your salvation, you don't have to submit yourself to law keeping, which is the only way that you can stay saved. If you believe, you can lose your salvation.
Speaker 4:Amen. Remember what I shared with you about the acronym of what faith is yeah.
Speaker 1:Say that again.
Speaker 4:I like that, yeah, forsaking all I trust him. Yeah, with everything, everything.
Speaker 1:But see, that's what being yoked to Christ is. That's what being yoked to him is. I mean these verses, these passages in the scriptures. They mean absolutely nothing. When we read the verse in Romans 8 that Meg read when you read that passage, there's no condemnation. Read when you read that passage, there's no condemnation. So if there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ, then the issue is are you in Christ or not? If you lost your salvation, were you in Christ? Because if you were in Christ, that would be an impossibility. Because he says there's no condemnation to those who are in him.
Speaker 4:So you are either in him or you weren't. You're in him or you aren't. Jonathan, may I add another comment please? Yeah, you and then Brian. Next, go ahead, brian, if you could lose your salvation. Essentially, what your life is saying is that my sin, lord, your grace is not sufficient to conquer it and forgive it. That's what you're telling him to his face. Lord, what you did on the cross is not enough. And I'm still lost. I don't know what's going on. I don't know where I am. That's not what we're called to, right.
Speaker 1:It's not.
Speaker 3:Brother Brian, go ahead. The scripture that you read about. You know his pardon. Why is the pardon of Jesus Christ without end? Because he, unlike the sacrifices in the Old Testament or any human being that's ever lived, he is eternal, he is out in, he is from the beginning to the end. So, what he does, there is no end to it ever. Anybody that believes that you can lose your salvation is literally right back in the Jewish temple making sacrifices all the time they go right back to it.
Speaker 1:Jewish temple making sacrifices all the time. They go right back to it. And here's the thing when we talk about God's sovereignty in election, electing those to salvation, which the Bible makes clear, people will say like I'm sure this other guy probably believes that God Looked into the future and saw that you were going to choose him and then therefore elected you based on what he saw you were going to do. In other words, god looked at the future and he says oh look, lisa is going to accept me. Ok, let me write her down for the book of life because I see that in the future that she's going to accept me, right?
Speaker 1:So why would the same God who looks into the future and sees who's going to think about how silly this would be and sees who's think about how silly this would be, imagine God, if you believe that looks into the future and doesn't see that when he saves you, that you're gonna turn on him later and still picks you anyway? You understand what I'm saying. In other words, how can god look down the corridors of time, see that you're going to come to him and then reject him later and then still choose you afterwards? I mean, in spite of that. So he either sees everything or he sees nothing. It's crazy, greg, go ahead.
Speaker 7:It just all goes back to the discussion we had a week or so ago about penal substitutionary atonement. Right, people don't understand the gospel. They don't understand that on the cross, christ fully bore the wrath that was due to the believer. Right, the wrath that was due to the believer. So if he already bore all the wrath that was due to you, there's no more wrath left for you. There is none. And not also the second part of the exchange he bore your sin, your death, and when the sinner comes to faith in Christ, not only is your sin removed, the wrath is satisfied, but his sinless perfection is placed on you, and it's forever, it's one time. And then Romans 8, 28 through 30, that golden chain there, right, those whom he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed the image of his son, those he predestined he called, and those he called he justified, and those he justified he glorified Past tense.
Speaker 7:Well, and not only that, these are all actions that God does.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 7:He predestines, he calls, he justifies and he glorifies. These are all actions God does, and there's no one that falls through the cracks. Every single person that experiences justification goes on to glorification Right. So there's no such thing as a justified person that ends up in hell.
Speaker 1:It's a chain with a bunch of links that cannot be broken. It's impossible. It's impossible. What you just said is salvation in a nutshell, and the thing about it is the only thing that we bring to the table is our sin. That's it, sin.
Speaker 4:That's it, sin. That's it sin, jonathan I. I go back to the, the old hymns I sang as a kid growing up, and one of them was the chorus was grace that is greater than all our sin, right it doesn't mean it's a license to sin. It just means that it's paid for. It's done, it's finished. Amen. Losing your salvation Because he paid for it. He died to pay for it. Walk in it.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 4:That's it. And that simple, simple thing, tragically and unfortunately, brother Jonathan goes over so many people's heads. I don't mean to get worked up, but how many people are going to wind up separated from God because they chose, jonathan, not to embrace that? Get worked up, brother. Simple truth.
Speaker 2:I love it too.
Speaker 4:Okay, well, thank you both. I love you guys, all of you. You've got another excellent panel tonight, jonathan Get working. I'll mute my mic here, and you all.
Speaker 1:My brother Nathan. In the comments he said he brings up the part where God talks about removing our heart of stone. Can you imagine having your heart of stone removed and given a heart of flesh and somehow the heart of flesh that God made a heart of flesh and somehow the heart of flesh that god made?
Speaker 5:a heart of flesh, pardoned again, turned back to stone he would be. I don't want to go back. I don't want to go back there either but hey, I just want to say one thing. When you talk about your pardon a while ago, yep, the Abundant pardon, like it's the infinite pardon, which is the same as the forgiveness. The only best thing about the pardon part is it comes with salvation.
Speaker 1:You know what else it comes with salvation. But I'll tell you something else about pardon. What pardon? Pardon implies something that we can't lose sight of. Pardon implies something that we can't lose sight of. Pardon implies resident guilt, and what Christ did by his death was took away our guilt.
Speaker 2:Amen. Hey Brother Jonathan, I do got to say, though real quick, these comments are fire tonight. Like the people in the comments, I am totally gassed off of these comments tonight. It's just they're all on fire tonight. It's so good to see. Yeah, it is. Thank you all in the comments. Like man, it is really pumping me up.
Speaker 1:My thing is if I can lose salvation after receiving Christ, then what's the point of having it?
Speaker 4:None, exactly, jonathan. Let me go back to what you said about having a hard heart. What my experience has been and maybe you disagree if our heart starts to get hard again, I have learned God has got a spiritual jackhammer that he will take to that hard heart and bust it up for you. If that's what it takes in order for you to realize this is who I belong to. I've drifted, but this is who I belong to. I can come back.
Speaker 1:Here's what I don't understand and I'm going to go to pocket full of ramen in a second. So here's what I don't understand how does a man step into a pulpit and tell people all the glorious joys of losing your salvation? It bewilders me, because the gospel has to be what you are required to do in order to keep your salvation. But if I could do that, why would I need Christ? He said take my yoke upon you. That means relinquish all. Submit your will to me and I take over. I take over, not you. Your way didn't work, so submit to me. In other words, you know what Christ is saying, because we talk about this all the time. We always talk about how people somebody in fact I had a friend today was talking about. We were talking about selling your soul out to the devil, selling your soul to Satan. Well, guess what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 2:Soul to Jesus. Amen. Yes, lord, yes, lord, say it again, baby, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1:We give it all up, we give it all up for him, we give it all up, and so if we lose our salvation, there's something wrong with his salvation. Yeah, and if we could lose our salvation, we are in our sin right now. We are still in our sin right now. Go ahead with your thoughts and then then, candy, you're next. Pocket full of ramen. You there, brother? All right, guess?
Speaker 8:not, I didn't know. You were calling on me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you were probably waiting for me to call you by your name, but I don't know that yet. But go ahead, brother, you want to add?
Speaker 8:anything to the conversation. I wanted to speak on a little bit of grace, because that's something that I think we need to have with those who are believing such an atrocious lie to what the gospel preaches and what the reality of the gospel is, what the reality of the gospel is, and I believe that if someone believes that they can learn, lose their salvation when we, when we examine scripture in its entirety and really examine ourselves and what the word says is, the Holy spirit leads, I believe that we should keep them coming back and keep exposing them to this fellowship that we have here on on the panel and in this, this chat, for them to see that that just isn't so. You cannot lose your salvation, but I believe that the evil one and I believe, our flesh constantly are in the way. I mean, we're at enmity with the Lord and the evil one is playing on those vices and those footholds, whether it's from a lie that you've learned from the past in a you know, a false faith, or with people that you once looked up to uh, or have uh fed you um lies for your whole life. But I think that we should have grace with these people if they're, you know, respecting uh, you know the boundaries of your, your life, obviously, and they're willing to hear and they're not just in there convinced and they don't want to hear, they don't want to learn, they don't want to be slow to speak and so on.
Speaker 8:Because I remember once upon a time when I first heard the tenets of the Reformed theology and doctrine in my flesh, hated it and I hated everything about it. But what I remember is that, even though I hated it, when I went to scripture and when the Holy Spirit led me to the reality of the truth in which shows me eternal salvation and election and the truth of the word, I was humbled because I sought God. I said God, I need to know if this is what your truth is. And he poured into me when I asked it, just as he always does, like you were saying into me when I asked it, just as he always does, like you were saying, with abundant mercy and abundant wisdom and grace for me.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question, brother. What's your name, by the way, if you don't mind me asking Canaan, canaan, great name. Okay, so let me ask you a question. You said that when you first heard it, like a lot of people, you hated it. I just want to ask you a question, for me and for everybody else too why did you hate it? When you first heard it, like a lot of people, you hated it. I just want to ask you a question, for me and for everybody else too why did you hate it? Why did you hate it when you first heard?
Speaker 8:it. You know, I, to be honest, something in me, just it, just it was my, it was my flesh, like a hundred percent. It wasn't even that I had ever looked into it or ever heard about it, but it was just. My flesh was just incomplete. Utter rejection of.
Speaker 1:But why do you think? Why do you think? What part of it were you rejecting?
Speaker 8:That that God, that God would choose or that God would elect and that God would that we were, that we were, that fallen, right? So I didn't even understand the basic tenets of sin, right when I was being raised. When they tell you about sin, I mean they give you the most basic interpretation I've ever heard of in my life. They don't truly help you understand the magnitude in which you're fallen and how unalive you truly are and how evil you truly are. You take those scriptures and you compare it to your heart.
Speaker 8:If you truly being honest with your heart of hearts and examine yourself, you can't deny the fact, and the reality of it is that you may not be as evil as you could be. But we know that there are things that God has placed intact for society not to be as evil as it could be. And when we looked at past civilizations and we look at what they're doing, I mean none of us are innocent of sin, right. But understanding that the depth of it and the magnitude of it was not something that was ever expressed to me. So when people were talking about that and they were just going over the subject, it wasn't necessarily an attack on me, but when I heard it, my flesh just immediately was like in arms. I gotta keep.
Speaker 1:I gotta keep you going because you're gonna roll for a second. So let me, let me ask you something else. So, when you, when you, finally, when you, when God finally broke you and you embraced it, what was it? What, what, what did you find? What did you find out? That you had to relinquish? What did you give up that made it accessible to you? Finally, how did it change you? What did you realize after coming to the truth? What was it that you realized that made it sink in?
Speaker 8:It just goes back to when it talks about in the Bible, where you count what you know as foolishness, because it you know, the world's wisdom is full and it's foolishness. And that was what the gospel was, how it was presented to me, was in a worldly way. And once I, once I abandoned those, those upbringings and those things that weren't completely true or they were completely false, and I just was like, okay, lord, lead me. And I gave it all up to him and I went to the word to for him to prove to me and to show me the realities of it, because I wanted to prove it wrong.
Speaker 8:So I went to scripture, because I knew that that was where we go, is we go to the word, and I prayed for clarity on these subjects and I, I sought him and I and I meditated on it and I, I went back to the, the Jews, when God had pulled them out of the nations, and I was like why? Why did he choose them? That people was a chosen race and why is it that now it's Jews and Gentiles, you know, like that whole line that you see from the Old Testament to the New. And so once I did that, then I was free to look at the Word without it being through a filter of some kind. That wasn't the actual reality of what the word teaches us.
Speaker 1:Brother, let me tell you something I love everything. You just said, literally everything, and so I appreciate your words, that you spoke tonight, because I think a lot of people go through this, you know, and they and they have to like, um, they they end up finding, discovering wait a minute, you mean, this is completely out of my hands. At first it's like scary, but then you realize, but if it's completely out of my hands, then that means I'm completely in his hands, correct? And then it becomes. Then it becomes.