The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
Dead Men Don't Choose: The Truth About Salvation
Can you truly lose your salvation once you've accepted Christ? This question haunts countless believers, robbing them of peace and assurance. Our panel dives into what Scripture actually teaches about eternal security, revealing the powerful truth that sets hearts free.
The conversation begins with raw vulnerability as Jonathan shares his own spiritual wrestling match with this doctrine—how he lost sleep and appetite for days until the Holy Spirit brought clarity. This isn't theological debate for debate's sake; it's about finding genuine rest in God's promises.
Scripture takes center stage as the panel examines key passages like John 10:27-28 and Romans 8:31-39. Lisa's testimony particularly resonates as she describes her transformation from paralyzing fear to unshakable confidence upon discovering Christ's promise: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." The evidence mounts verse by verse: salvation is secure not because of our grip on God, but because of His unbreakable hold on us.
The most profound revelation comes when exploring the nature of spiritual rebirth. Just as none of us chose the circumstances of our physical birth—our gender, race, or family—we likewise have no control over our spiritual rebirth. It is entirely God's supernatural work. This understanding demolishes pride and establishes salvation firmly as Christ's achievement, not ours.
Whether you're plagued by doubt about your salvation or simply seeking deeper theological understanding, this conversation offers biblically-grounded assurance. The panel unanimously affirms what Scripture teaches: salvation is 100% Christ's work, 0% human effort. Once saved, always saved—not because we're worthy, but because He is faithful.
Join us for this transformative discussion that might just reframe your entire understanding of God's irrevocable gift and the profound peace it brings.
the foundation for peace with God. You know what I mean. So I appreciate those words, but I really do.
Speaker 2:And just so everybody knows, I literally lost sleep and appetite for days wrestling with this reality. Once it once the Holy spirit and gave it, you know, fruit and it came to fruition and my understanding is the Holy spirit revealed it. So it wasn't something that I just accepted just because somebody told me. But when you gave it fruit and it came to fruition and my understanding is, the Holy Spirit revealed it, so it wasn't something that I just accepted just because somebody told me. But when you allow the Holy Spirit to lead you to seek and you ask for him to pour into you, be careful what you ask for, because when he does, that's what's going to happen to you at one point or another in your walk.
Speaker 1:So everything that you just said, brother, at least you're next. But everything he just said, it goes back to that verse in isaiah that I read earlier let the wicked forsake his way and, and the key thing is, let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts. And so this is what we end up realizing that that, what I can't, you know like when it comes to salvation, you want to stop thinking for yourself, you want to start thinking his thoughts, and it's hard to do because we are bred, especially in America, because we are bred especially in America. Especially in America, we are bred to be independent and to be seekers of our rights, right, you?
Speaker 3:know Lisa go ahead, so I just wanted to mention this. And, jonathan, you've heard this before, but early in my walk, I was terrified that I was going to lose my salvation. I was so grateful to finally have to know what it was to be in Christ and I, literally for weeks, cried and prayed and I was absolutely terrified that I would do something that would. I was absolutely terrified that I would do something that would, and I prayed about this and God sent me to this verse and I'll never forget it. And after I read this verse, I was never the same again. I never shed a tear and I was just grateful. And it's John 10, 27 and 28. It says my sheep listen to my voice, I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, which means forever, and they shall never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hands.
Speaker 1:Lisa, sister, I wouldn't, I can for the life of me. I can never understand how people read passages like that and just walk away and go like, yeah, but you can still lose your salvation If you. I just don't get it. You can, you can. It's like like it's a car you trade in.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:That was so peaceful by any piece. Let me go to, let me go to Candy, and then and then, Jeffrey Candy go ahead.
Speaker 4:Off of what she's saying. I'm going to get to Romans 8. I'm going to start at 31 first. What, then, shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Now I'm going to skip down to 34. Who is it that he who condemns? It is Christ, who died and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of god, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us? Separate us from the love of christ? Shall tribulation, distress, persecution, famine or nakedness, or peril or sword, as it is written, for your sake? We are killed all day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter, yet in all things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded and provoked if we're not provoking you now, so be persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Jesus Christ, lord, amen.
Speaker 1:Sister, let me tell you something about what you just read, because created thing, because Created thing Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's the will, but the last part of it is what's key. When she says, nothing separates you from the love of God, amen. How do you go out there and teach and preach people that god is love? Teach the love of god. Teach and tell people over and over again about john 3, 16, how god so loved the world and you believe that after all that love god has for you, you can lose your salvation. It's a. It's the silliest thing I've ever. It blows my mind.
Speaker 6:It's mindless, jonathan. I've got a possible explanation for that, and that is the fact that I've done some reading about this God's plan of salvation. What part of it do we have in it? Zero, other than to receive it. That's right. It's damaging to the human fleshly pride that the only part we have in it, the only part that we can say, hey, this is what I did, is nothing, zero, other than to receive it. That's it. You have a lot of folks, and there's people, jonathan, that simply can't embrace that or accept it. They won't. Their pride won't let them. But here's the problem.
Speaker 1:Here's the problem. Here's the problem. Here's a problem because I have a. I have a study laid out for later this week or next week about receiving a gift. It's about I haven't titled it yet, but it's basically dealing with the idea of gift reception, and so there's a mentality in the Christian community where people think that a gift is something that is offered and you have the option to accept or reject. That is not true. That is not the gift that the Bible is talking about. So that's why I brought up that verse to that brother earlier, guy Bryan, when I was saying that when God says that the gifts and the gifts and the high calling and the calling of God are without repentance In other words, here's what he said when God gives a gift, it is irrevocable.
Speaker 1:It is not something that God is laying out going like what do you think about this? How do you like this? Does it, does it, does it appeal to you? You? Are you okay with it? Do you like it? Do you want it? No, that's not the gift that God has given. The gift that God gives is an irrevocable gift, meaning that when he gives it, it is taken Irrevocable. So when Lazarus was raised, it wasn't a conversation between Christ and a chorus. It wasn't a conversation. It wasn't. Like Lazarus, I have this gift of life that I'd like to restore to you. What do you think about it? Would you like to take it?
Speaker 5:Well, just keep me in here for a fourth day and we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1:Yes, but see, this is the gospel that a lot of people are out there preaching, that you are not dead in your sin and trespasses, that you're just a little sin, sick and there's enough in you to reason, to rationalize, to intellectualize whether or not this gift will be good for you If you are dead and you're sinning, trespasses, but yet you're going to receive a gift of life. You are dead when the gift is given and the gift that you receive is life. Dead when the gift is given and the gift that you receive is life, but there's no conversation between the gift giver and the dead person Jonathan.
Speaker 6:God's love is like the sign that you see in a great big discount store. All sales are that we receive God's love and we receive Christ. That sale deal, whatever you want to call it, is F-I-N-A-L Final. That's it. It has a no return policy. You see what I'm saying? You got it, you own it.
Speaker 1:It's yours. I like this Jeff.
Speaker 6:The house is burning right now. I got to call Joe and he gets the fire department out here.
Speaker 1:Something else I want to go over before we close up with the last remarks from everybody. Christ says take my yoke upon you and learn of me. The learning doesn't start until the yoke has been taken. You don't learn nothing about him until you take his yoke upon you. Now a lot of people like to tell you well, tell me the evidence, give me this evidence, give me that evidence, give me, and then I'll believe. Not how it works? You take the yoke of Christ upon you first, and then you're able to learn of him. Why? Because you are yoked together with him now. And then he goes on to say tells you why. And then he goes on to say tells you why. He says because I am gentle or meek, depending on what version you have, and lowly in heart.
Speaker 1:Now, here's the thing Meekness, which the Bible tells us that Moses was the meekest of all men. But we know that there's one person who was more meek than Moses and that was our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. But meekness means what meekness? Meekness is the exact. Here's the thing. We're talking about, christ now. So we're flipping this whole will thing over and turning it on to Christ. Someone who is meek is the person who. That person who is meek is the very opposite of one who is self-willed. So Christ was.
Speaker 1:Christ is saying take my yoke upon me and learn. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, because I am meek and lowly in heart. So he's meek Because I am meek and lowly in heart. So he's meek, which means that he is giving up his self-will. He's not moving or motivated by his own self-will, but he's motivated by what is in our best interest. He is sacrificing his self-will in order for us to be yoked to him. And then he says he's lowly, meaning he is the reverse of what we would see or what we would refer to in our modern speak today as self-esteem and self-righteous. Christ is not building upon his own self-esteem or self-righteous, he is trying to build up ours. But in order for that to happen, he himself humbles himself. He humbled himself. He gave up his prerogatives as God. Self-will wasn't his motivation, self-righteousness wasn't his motivation, self-esteem wasn't his motivation for himself. But he did all these things. He gave up. He gave up in order for us to benefit from. And what he was showing because he gave up, when it tells us in Philippians 2, that he gave up his prerogatives as God. What he's saying is that I am not concerned about making use of what I have a right to make use of. I could destroy you all, but I chose not to do that. I have the right to, but I did not do that. I didn't do that and I'll finish it up with this last thing. I didn't do that and I'll finish it up with this last thing.
Speaker 1:There's only one person, because salvation. You either believe it is 100 percent a work of Christ, or you believe it is a work 100 percent of man, or you believe that salvation is a result of a cooperation between Christ and you. Three options Is salvation is all you, or is all of Christ, or it is a cooperation between you and Christ. Now I want to go around. I want to ask everybody. No diatribes I just want to give you. I was going to ask you which one do you believe is true that salvation is a result solely of man's exercise of his free will? Is it a complete, total exercise of the free will of Christ, or is it a cooperation between you and Christ? Meg you first. Which one is it?
Speaker 5:All Jesus brother.
Speaker 1:Brian Murphy. What do you think? All Jesus, Canaan, what do?
Speaker 2:you think, brother, it's all the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone.
Speaker 1:Lisa, you can disagree if you want to.
Speaker 3:It's all Jesus.
Speaker 1:Brother Jeffrey, what do you think?
Speaker 6:All Jesus man. Man has nothing to do with it Zero.
Speaker 1:What about the cooperation part? Nope, doesn't man have to cooperate with Jesus? Isn't that how man becomes saved, you sure? Positive.
Speaker 3:You hear the story of Jonah.
Speaker 6:Grace alone, grace alone Grace.
Speaker 1:Greg, what do you think? Greg, what do you think?
Speaker 8:Salvation is of the Lord.
Speaker 1:Of the Lord, All together Candy. What do you think?
Speaker 4:Oh well, it's all Jesus. God planned the salvation, Jesus accomplished it, and the Holy Spirit applies. It's all Jesus. God planned the salvation, jesus accomplished it, and the Holy Spirit applies it in our hearts.
Speaker 1:Amen, sister, now I've got one last chance to get somebody to disagree with me. Is that going to be you, a Seamless, seamless you there? All right, so anyway, so far, I think we're all in agreement. I think we're all in agreement. I think we're all in agreement. Brother Brian Murphy says ask Nebuchadnezzar about free will. Good point, good point. Ask Nebuchadnezzar. But see, this is critical, because what you believe about this will determine what you understand about God's word and about our Savior.
Speaker 9:I'm here, Brother Jonathan.
Speaker 1:Oh, you got it. Okay, what's your thought?
Speaker 9:I would just say a small verse, which is Zechariah I think it's 4, 6, 5, 6, and not by your might, nor by your power, but by my spirit. So there is the cooperation of giving up your might and your power, but by his spirit.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother, appreciate that. Amen, I mean, that's exactly it. And here's the thing, because here's why, you know, because I expected at least one person to say cooperation and I didn't get it. Nobody did it. And good, I'm glad they did it, because here's what it would mean Salvation is a result of regeneration, the new birth, and we have to understand why it's called the new birth, because the new birth is something that the person being born has nothing to do with.
Speaker 1:There was no consultation on our being born. There was no. There was no consultation on what sex or gender I mean what gender or sex? Well, same thing. And there was no consultation on what race we would be born. There was no consultation on what our parents would look like or what academic strain they would have or what physical abilities they would have. There was no concept, there was nobody that consulted with us on our natural birth.
Speaker 1:So what makes people believe that they have some say in the new birth? Now I will say this there was one person who was in total control of his birth, of his birth. The Lord Jesus is the only person who was born Into this world, who chose To be born, who his mother would be, who chose who his stepfather would be, who chose where he would be born, who chose what nationality he would be born into, who chose what set of laws he would be governed by. He chose all of the circumstances regarding his birth. So I have to tell you, anybody who believes that their salvation is a result of their will and their choice, it is pride on the highest level, a foolish pride, to believe that your new birth was a result of a choice on your part. You had nothing to do with it. Jesus Christ is the only one whose will determined all of the circumstances of his birth.
Speaker 1:So if you get to choose your new birth, then that will put you on the same plane with the Lord himself. And with that I will close and I'm going to leave it up to everybody. Oh, I'm getting to the point now where everybody gets their last word. So I will start with a seamless. Since this is your first time up here, brother, I'm glad you made it. I give everybody a last word before I close up the message for tonight. So I'll let you start with giving us your last word on the whole subject, whatever you heard.
Speaker 9:I just enjoy the fellowship of everyone here. Meg, I've seen you around and heard you quite a bit. Thanks, it's nice to be next to you. Glory to God, thank you. I just think one saved, always saved, as you had said. I think a lot of people get that confused with falling asleep again, which we can do and we can be unfruitful. But no snake crawls back to its snake skin and no butterfly wants its caterpillar body back. Butterfly, once it's caught, her body back.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, Great, great, great analysis there. I like that Great Meg. Last word, sister.
Speaker 5:There are 70 people in this room, and there may be somebody in here who needs salvation, and the question I always like to ask is when God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. When does that everlasting life starts? It starts the moment that you believe, and, man, there's no greater gift in the entire world than the salvation that we get in Jesus Christ. Nothing, there's nothing, that compares to it. You know life is hard. We all have a testimony, but Christ overcame it all, and if he did it, then through him we will do it too. Amen.
Speaker 1:Amen sister, Thank you, thank you big candy girl.
Speaker 4:Last word, candy. You know I'm gonna go to john 28, john 10, 28 great verse is that, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. Neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my father's hand. I and my father are one.
Speaker 1:Amen. Sister Appreciate that Brian Merton Love y'all. Love Amen. Sister. Appreciate that Brian Murphy Love y'all. Love you too, sister, brian Murphy. Last word, brother.
Speaker 7:It's been a blessing hearing from everybody tonight. It's such a joy to hear Candy Girl and Lisa and everybody else, see them grow in their boldness, declaring you know, they're just getting their voice, they're just becoming more bold, and that's just a joy. But for everybody up here, I want us to not miss what happened when Jonathan asked Pocket a question. As believers, we need to really learn what just happened right there. He stopped the discussion and went back and asked him a question Well, why do you think that? What do you think happened that? Right? There is what, as Christians, we need to do Ask the question, let them respond. At worst, all we're going to do is get a great testimony like pocket. Yeah, it was just fantastic, fantastic. But you might hear them say something you can say well, okay, I see where the wrong turn happened. What about this scripture to apply to that? That is how we disciple people one-on-one that is fantastic can
Speaker 5:I can I brag on pocket real quick go do it we came, we were in alive the other day.
Speaker 5:It makes me cry. We were in alive the other day and we were just talking about like all these false doctrines and you know the things in our journey that like hindered us and the things that we used to believe. But then, maturing in Christ, it came to something totally different and pocket just came up on the panel and he sat there quietly. Just came up on the panel and he sat there quietly and then he raised his hand in the comments and he says can I ask you all a question? We were like yeah, of course, and he says have you ever repented for those false things that you believed in? Like Like he? Pocket knew that.
Speaker 5:Like you know, I was born and raised Catholic until I was like 13.
Speaker 5:And there's certain things that we, you know, believed and all of a sudden the lives stopped and each one of us went around and we prayed and we repented for the things that we believed.
Speaker 5:And I thought to myself you know what, Lord, I never did that. And so for for pocket to come in and just make one statement and have the Holy spirit just convict everybody in the live, and pocket himself even prayed and it was just so beautiful because you realize the things and the enemy's traps, that you stepped in and you know we were just like Lord, we're sorry, you know, and it was the most beautiful thing and so, and that's something I won't ever forget and I love you, Brother Pocket, and you're just a wonderful brother in Christ, and I thank you that the Holy Spirit used you that night in that room and it was just the most beautiful thing. And it was even more beautiful to see believers humble themselves before the Lord realized where they went wrong and come to the Father, knowing that we wouldn't be condemned. But it was just so refreshing, knowing that we wouldn't be condemned, but it was just so refreshing and it was just the most beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:So, thank you, Brother Pocket and I love you, brother Pocket. That takes us to you, my friend, your last word for today. You definitely I mean definitely, for me too your words tonight were definitely. You know, if you take this whole live, if I was to make a highlight reel, this would be one of the top highlights what things you had to say and I appreciated it, and I'm sure everybody else did too.
Speaker 2:So what are your last words for everybody tonight, everybody and the fellowship that we're able to have, and that I can find a place where we share the truth and the hard truths, the hard realities of scripture. And I would say that if we forsake what we think, we know, and we forsake the worldly stains and desires and lean into the Holy Spirit and lean into the word, that we find a peace and understanding that only he can give us. And I'm just extremely grateful for that and for you guys.
Speaker 1:Man, we definitely, we definitely going to to the best of our. I mean, it's too bad, I can't. I can't contact the uh, the social media company, and have them add more spots, cause I want to make sure I got one frozen there for you to come back and stay. But you're welcome anytime, brother. I like what you had to say and I really appreciate it, brother, greg. Last word Okay.
Speaker 8:So it says take my yoke upon you and learn of me. So that can be taken two ways Learn of me, it can mean learn from me. It can also mean learn about me, right Isaiah 53, 11,. It says for my righteous servant by his knowledge he shall justify many, for he shall bear their sins or bear their iniquities. And Jesus said this is life eternal, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent so we're to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. And the only way we do that is in the word. You know, we just just read that word and then you'll you'll learn of him in both senses. Amen, brother, appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Lisa last word.
Speaker 3:OK, I just want to thank everybody again. I got here a little late tonight so I'm really um happy to have gotten to come up here and and listen and and put in my two cents. But I'm gonna read john 6, 39. It's another one, it's just another verse. Um well, I'll read it. And this is jesus speaking. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. So just another encouragement to believe what Jesus says straight out of his mouth. I shall lose none. I mean literally. He sent me these verses because it was so heavy on my heart and I just hope that someone I pray that anyone who is struggling with that will just let go and believe what Jesus says. God bless you all. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sister, appreciate that. Brother Jeffrey, you got the last word.
Speaker 6:All right, jonathan, I got something a little different here I want to do. I want to say I think there's probably more than one person that's in the scroll down there right now that is probably questioning their salvation, and I don't want to see that person leave here tonight still questioning their salvation, or maybe not even knowing they don't have it and they want to receive it. So what I would like to do is just lead a short prayer, with your permission. Go for it, brother. All right, father, right now, in the name of Jesus, we just ask that whoever is here tonight, lord, who is questioning their salvation, lord, that you would give them the assurance, father, right now, that they would repent of the fact, lord, that they're questioning, that you saved them, father. They are saved If they've put their faith and trust in you. They can't lose their salvation. They can't.
Speaker 6:For those who are here tonight, lord, who don't haven't asked you as Lord and Savior, lord, touch their heart tonight and have them say the prayer of salvation. Jesus, I want you in my life, come into my life, bring me your salvation, your eternal, wonderful gift, and save me. Put my name in the Lamb's book of life. The salvation process you offer has nothing to do with me other than to receive it. I receive your free gift and I wanna follow forward and walk forward and I wanna be equally positively yoked as Jonathan said earlier tonight with you and I want you walking with me every day for the remainder of my life.
Speaker 6:And, friends, if any of you have prayed that prayer tonight, reach out to me, reach out to Jonathan, reach out to anybody in this panel and we will continue to fellowship with you and have a walk with you in Christ and with that, jonathan, I out to anybody in this panel and we will continue to fellowship with you and have a walk with you in Christ and with that, jonathan, I love you all. God bless you all. Good night and hopefully we'll see each other again tomorrow night. Thank you, brother.
Speaker 1:So my last word is going to be based on what Canaan said earlier, pocket Full of Ramen, because when he first started, when I first called him up and he gave me the first comments that he made, he talked about showing grace and mercy to these people who were saying these things about losing your salvation and all that kind of stuff, and I want him and all of you to know that I heard that and that and that and that resonated with me and um, so it's something I'm going to be aware of, because I think that what, that, what he said, was a brilliant exhortation and it was something we have to remember, because, especially in these kinds of situations, you generally find people that want to jump into everything in a hostile way, and so he was right in saying what he said, that we have to understand that, yes, even though these people may be saying and spewing wrong things and deceptive things, we have to take a different tact in dealing with them. Look, sometimes people deserve thunderbolts when they get them, but there are a lot of people who just don't know any better, who just don't know any better, and so we have to be able to discern the difference in that, and I want to encourage everybody, because I know that a lot of people get into a lot of lives and they go around and get into these arguments and these ridiculous engagements with people, whatever, and I don't really have the stomach for it for the most part, and I also don't do it because I know my personality, which is the kind of person that goes exactly against what Kanan was saying we should do. So I keep myself from it, you know, and so it was a good exhortation. So I mean, this is a good exhortation for us to sort of adhere to. So I appreciate that, brother, when you said that and I want you to know, canaan, that I heard you, I heard you, and so, with that being said, it's time to go Be provoked and be replaced.
Speaker 1:Good night, everybody, till tomorrow. We're going to talk about the veil of Moses tomorrow, so good night.
Speaker 5:Bye, all In the comments. Great job.