The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: The Veil of Moses (PART 1 of 5)
The moment Moses descended Mount Sinai with the tablets of stone, his face radiant with divine glory, marked a pivotal moment in biblical history. This fascinating exploration of "The Veil of Moses" takes you deep into Exodus 34, where Moses covered his shining face before the frightened Israelites.
What was the significance of this mysterious veil? Why did it provoke such fear among the people? And what profound truths does it reveal about our relationship with God today? Through thoughtful analysis and spirited discussion, we uncover the dual purpose behind Moses' covering – both to calm the Israelites' fears and to conceal the temporary nature of the law's glory.
As we journey into 2 Corinthians 3, where Paul interprets this ancient event, we discover how the veil symbolizes the transition between covenants. The law itself was glorious, holy and good – yet it was also what Paul called "the ministration of death." This apparent contradiction holds the key to understanding God's redemptive plan.
The veil of Moses teaches us that acknowledging grace doesn't diminish the law's holiness. Rather, it recognizes that because of human sinfulness, God established a better covenant through which He could have the relationship with humanity He always intended. This episode illuminates how the law reveals our need for salvation while pointing to the superior glory of grace.
Whether you're a seasoned Bible scholar or new to studying Scripture, this examination of one of the Bible's most vivid symbols will transform your understanding of how law and grace work together in God's perfect plan. Listen now to discover why this ancient story matters more than ever for Christians today.
Christians. Good evening. I hope you had a prosperous day Tonight. The subject matter I've termed or called the veil of Moses. The veil of Moses, the veil of Moses. I'm in Exodus, chapter 34. And I want to begin by reading Exodus 34, verses 29 through 35. So I'll begin Now.
Speaker 1:It was so when Moses came from Mount Sinai and the two tablets of the testimony were in Moses's hand when he came down from the mountain, that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone or was shining while he talked with him. So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold the skin of his face was shining and they were afraid to come near him. Then Moses called to them and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him and Moses talked with them. And afterward all of the children of Israel came near and he gave them as commandments all that the Lord had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. And when Moses had finished speaking with them he put on a veil on his face. But whenever Moses went in before the Lord with him, he would take off the veil until he came out and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded, and whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses, that the skin of his Moses's face was shining, then Moses would put. Moses would put the veil on his face again Until he went to speak with him.
Speaker 1:Forgive my fumbling over some of the words, but it is hard for me to see sometimes, but anyway. In any case, tonight we're going to have a discussion about the veil of Moses and what its significance is to us in terms of our understanding and what we should gather from it. And so there's much to be learned from the veil of Moses as it pertains to our understanding of the transition between covenants. What I mean by the covenants, I mean the covenant of law versus the covenant of grace, yep, yep. So this is what we're going to be dealing with tonight Understanding what is to be understood by the veil of Moses, the veil of Moses. So I'm going to take a cursory review over the verses that I just read, and then I will reach out to the people on the panel and begin to get some perspective as to what people believe is being taught. I find it particularly a fascinating piece of God's word, especially because it gives us a very clear understanding about things that have surrounded much of the confusion when it comes to understanding the law versus grace versus grace.
Speaker 1:Now, in verse 30, let me see here, let me get back to the chapter here. In verse 29, it says Now, it was so that when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he had the two tablets of stone and the testimony were in his hands and he did not know that his face was shining when he came down. Then he says that when Moses was speaking with God, he never had the veil over his face. But when he spoke to the people of Israel, the children of Israel, it was then that he would put the veil on his face. Now it's interesting because there are two principles that are taking place here, two principle effects that Moses putting the veil over his face was clearly indicating. Because, for some reason, the glory of God was on Moses' face. Because for some reason, the glory of God was on Moses' face, but it caused fear on the part of Israel. So the veil was put over his face in order to calm their fears, to calm their fears, to block that glory of God that was on his face. For some reason it frightened the people of Israel. So the veil was put over his face to calm their fears. And also the other reason why Moses would wear this veil is so that the people would not witness the transient and fleeting nature of what was taking place when God or when Moses had this glow on his face.
Speaker 1:Now, first, we have to begin with what was going on. Moses had received the law of God on the two tablets of stone previous to this incident, and he came down from the Mount Sinai and he found the people having a party celebrating around this calf. And when Moses saw this, he dropped the tablets of stone and they were broken. And this is the second time that he went back up to receive the law again, the law of God again on the stones, on the tablets of stone. And this time he comes down and he finds things are as they should be. But what did Moses go up there to do? To get the law? No surprise here. Moses went up there to do To get the law. No surprise here. Moses went up there to receive the law from God. So all that we are dealing with right now has a lot to do with God giving Moses the law.
Speaker 1:Now, as I said, there are two things that are significant about Moses' receiving of the law and how. When he' receiving of the law and how, when he came down with the law, how it affected the people. Moses receives the law. He comes down from Mount Sinai, his face is glowing and the people are frightened. So the veil was to cover up his face so that the people would not fear, so they would not be frightened by it, to bring calm to them.
Speaker 1:But the other thing that was important to understand is that it was also covering his face. The veil was to cover his face so that the people would not witness the dissipating glory of this legal or this law experience, this legal or this law experience, because the glow on Moses' face, the glory of God, is emblematic. That was on Moses' face was emblematic of the passing and fading glory of the law that Moses had received. They weren't supposed to see the fading, transient, fleeting nature of the law that Moses had received. That being said, I want to reach out to the panel that is already full and in place and get initial perspectives, things that you may want to add or detract from what I'm saying as it pertains to this veil that is on the face of Moses and the reason why the veil is on his face. So I will start with you, sister Angie. What are your thoughts so far?
Speaker 2:Well, I agree with you on everything you said. I mean, they were fearful of him, because look at how powerful God is. And also, too, if he came down and they were worshiping the calf, they were going against god and disobedience too, right well, see the cap.
Speaker 1:That was the first time. This is the second time you went up, right right.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you know, just being in god's presence alone, just as a human being, I just I mean, you know, just face to face with him. He wasn't really Facebook, but in in there where he was getting order and the law, and just being filled by God in that way, is just to me, I find it very fascinating and just in awe of it, you know how that can happen to a human being.
Speaker 1:What I think, what I think is very interesting here, and what I think is very interesting with the Word of God in general, is that you have this sort of living metaphor of realities that people today, after all these years, thousands of years later, and people still don't understand what's going on, which is what we're going to get into. So, candy Girl, your turn next up. What do you think? What are your initial thoughts about the veil of Moses and why he put it on his face and the impact that it had on the people of Israel on his face and the impact that it had on the people of Israel? Candy girl, you there. All right, let me go to somebody else. I'll come back to you if you can hear me. Sister Lisa, you there.
Speaker 3:I'm here, all right. What are your thoughts so far? So you said, when Moses comes down, they are fearful. And we see other places in Scripture where, you know, people encounter the glory of the Lord and they fall down in fear. We, just, we can't be in the presence of such holiness, and so the veil to me is is it's the separation between us and, or, you know, between them, and the glory that was upon Moses at the time?
Speaker 1:Now let me ask you a question, because you you use a word that is very special in what you just said. You use the word separation. Why?
Speaker 3:because god can't be in the presence of sin and we're full of sin, they were full of sin. He's holy, he's, and and we're the, we were the, we're the opposite moment, and you know before right.
Speaker 1:Perfect, Good answer, Brian Kay Murphy. What do you think? What's your thoughts initially?
Speaker 5:I mean you already said it the fact that the veil is still there.
Speaker 1:Can everybody hear that noise?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's not on my end.
Speaker 6:I can hear it. I wonder if it's. What is that? Brother Jonathan, we'll find out. Mute up real quick. We'll find out.
Speaker 1:I don't know where it looks like everybody's muted, so now it's stopped. Alright, so go ahead, brian, try it again.
Speaker 5:Like I said you already said it the law is it's passing away. I mean, it talks about it in second Corinthians, chapter three. You know how the Israelites it says that they, you know, might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. It's, it's passing away when we what it is is if you still think that you can, you see it that it's holy. That's why his face shown. The law of god is holy people. But if you think that you can try to keep that law, there is going to be a veil remaining because you don't see that it's actually purpose is to come to an end right for the second covenant to come.
Speaker 5:That's why it says that when they look at the Old Testament, the bill is still there, right. Another little side note. I know we're going to get more into all this, but back in Exodus, chapter 20, when he first went up, it said that the people was afraid. And they told Moses. They said you go up, you go to the up in the mountain, because we're all scared, scared to death of God. That right there is where so many people mess up. We let somebody else go up and talk to God for us, because we're too afraid to go on our own.
Speaker 1:Do you remember? Do you recall why they were afraid to go up?
Speaker 5:Well, there was thunder ends and everything on the mountain. So they were just scared to death to walk into the presence of God. They thought they would all die. But that is a temptation for each one of us in our, in our flesh, to let somebody else go up and study for us and hear the word. And I go up and talk to us and hear the word, and not go up and talk to God and study on our own.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Appreciate that, brother Jeffrey, your thoughts, your initial thoughts.
Speaker 8:Well, initially Jonathan, and good evening Jonathan and everyone. Glad you all could be in tonight. How does a person, or Moses, go into the presence of God and not be changed? See, that was my thought. I mean Moses, when he went into the presence of God. One of the first things God told him and says get your sandals off your feet, because where you are standing, moses is holy ground. A little while earlier, before God's presence was up there, it was just a plain mountain. Now God's presence is there and it's holy ground. Now, if that's not going to change someone and then require a veil over their face later because they've been in the presence of God, nothing will Absolutely. So it's like all right, moses was definitely not going to be the same man coming back down as he was going up that mountain.
Speaker 1:No way. Well, that's for sure that Moses had an intimate when Moses came down him, that this was sort of like, I mean the idea that Moses himself could be in the presence of God. He comes down as a man after having been in the presence of God, comes down around the people and the glory of God is still being reflected off of him. So much to the point where the people found it somewhat fearful and frightening to see and it's hard to know from from us reading, reading it, what it must have looked like. But I can't imagine at all what that, what that must have looked like. But it was glorious nonetheless. But let me ask you this question what do you, you think the significance is of Moses's face shining? Go ahead, meg. What is it? What do you think?
Speaker 6:See, I think when he came from the mountain and his face was glowing, this was now a part of Moses's ordinary dress versus ordinary dress, meaning that there were two times. There were two exceptions right when the veil was taken off, when he was in the presence of god and when he had a message for the people from god. So they knew that it was him. Okay, so I mean, that's how I see it, like it was, the reason for the veil was so the israelites could not see, like you said, the end of what, what of what is abolished, it represents. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Here's what I'm, here's what I'm gonna put to you and jeffrey both what was what? What? When you read this, what do you glean from the fact that Moses's face was glowing, was shining? Forget about the people for a second. What does his glowing signify to you?
Speaker 6:that Moses was like. I don't want to say Moses was in the place of God, but that's what he represented.
Speaker 1:But I want you to go a little further, embellish a little bit more. He's a typology of Christ he is, but that's not what we're going to get from this. Well, it is kind of indirectly, but we'll come back to that. Let me ask Candy Girl. Candy Girl, you ready Can?
Speaker 2:you hear me this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can hear you now.
Speaker 2:Can you hear me now?
Speaker 1:I can hear you Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Okay, god's glory, god's glory Was why his face was so illuminated.
Speaker 1:We know he was in the presence of God's glory. But there's something else I'm looking for. There's something else that I'm looking for. What was glorious about the whole interaction between Moses and God and the people? What was the whole scenario about Relationship? Yeah, but the relationship, so we can say the relationship has a lot to do with the covenant aspect there it goes again. That might be Candy Girl, because I know that she's driving, I think. But that might be okay. But Candy Girl, do you hear me?
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead, ask the question one more time.
Speaker 1:So the question is this I'm trying to figure out, trying to find out what else is significant about this whole scene that is relevant to Moses' face glowing. We know it's about God's glory, but what are we really talking about here?
Speaker 6:Sanctification.
Speaker 1:Who did I miss here? I didn't get around to everybody. Let me go to Pocketful of Ramen Kana, you there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I honestly. I want to hear what you think about it, because I can't think of anything specific aside from what was already said that when Moses was interacting with God, his great holiness and his character and his glory and all of those things were shown down onto Moses, and therefore, when he was in the presence of a fallen man, sinful man, that it's overwhelming for them and all their senses, both spiritually and physically. So I don't really have much I can add to it.
Speaker 1:All right Brother, greg, what's your thoughts?
Speaker 7:All right, Brother Greg, what's your thoughts? Excuse me. In the passage that Meg alluded to in 2 Corinthians 3, it talks about the glory of the ministration of death. So the law had a glory to it, but it was still the ministration of death. That's why I think it provoked fear. You know, the law works wrath.
Speaker 1:Well, go ahead. No, that's good, because that's what we're going to, because we're going to be going to second Corinthians three next, for everybody who has the word of God with them. But the issue is this. The issue is this I was getting at the law. The law itself was glorious. We know that God is glorious. We know that, and so, for those who mentioned God, you weren't wrong. Nobody had a wrong answer about this.
Speaker 1:But there was only the absence of this aspect of Moses going up there to get the law. That's why he went there and go and going to get and retrieve the law on these, on these tabletsus of stone. This was the centerpiece of this narrative that we're reading about. Moses went to get the law, and this is the second time going up there to get it and he comes down and he has this glow. So this glow was not only significant to him going up there to be in the presence of God, but it was significant in that he went up there to get the law from God, and the law was the centerpiece of the covenant. In fact, not even not even a centerpiece. It is the covenant that he is receiving from God that is establishing his relationship between his people and himself.
Speaker 1:And so what we are learning here is that the law is glorious, the law is good, the law is holy, the law is a reflection on Moses's face of who God is, holy and righteous and covenant making. And so, and the reason why this is so important for us? Because most of us here have had many discussions with people who will accuse us of saying that we don't think the law is good, righteous, relevant, holy or any of those kinds of things, because we believe that we are saved by grace. But that's not what we're saying, and anybody who knows the word of God truly would never say that.
Speaker 1:I know, like all of you, that we are saved by God's grace, saved by his grace, but we also know that this salvation that comes by grace was a covenant that God established with us that superseded salvation, the ministration, as Brother Greg said, the ministration of the law. But not because the law was not holy, not because the law was not good and righteous, not because the law was not glorious, but because the law could not do what was required by God because of the sin that's in man, so for man to have a right relationship with God. That the law could not establish. It was incumbent upon God to have a better way in order to ensure that he could have the relationship with man that he intended to have and that he does have. Now, brother Brian, go ahead.
Speaker 5:I just want to relate it. Folks, this is simple, it really is. When we share the gospel with people, god did the same thing right there with Moses. When we share the gospel, do we just go right into saying, well, jesus loves you. No, you have to give them the bad news first. You have to show them the holiness, perfection of God, and that you fall short of that, that you're a sinner. That's exactly what happened when he went and got the law. Have to have that first covenant first. Got to have it. It's only then that you know I need a savior at first got to have it.
Speaker 1:It's only me that you know I need a savior. See the people of Israel. They saw Moses's face. He has these two tables of the law in like.
Speaker 1:Like you, sam Ryan, they knew if something was special about what they were witnessing. They knew that there was the glory of God presence. They knew that this law that Moses received was glorious, but it frightened them. And, as Brian also said, the law should always be to me that if you were to develop a formulaic approach and I'm not suggesting that you do, but I'm just saying but if you were to develop a formulaic approach and I'm not suggesting that you do, but I'm just saying but if you were to develop a formulaic approach which is consistent with scriptures, the best intro, the best intro when we witness and share to people, is to discuss with them the law of God.
Speaker 1:Because what does the law do? It strikes fear. It reveals the sinful nature that we have. It is a conduit to which a person can begin to understand. Something is wrong and something must be done.
Speaker 1:The law makes us afraid of God, as it should, but it should point us to another, alternative way for us to establish a relationship with God and to discover a process whereby we can be reconciled to him. This is important. This is important, but one of the first things that I want to make clear and establish in the ears of everyone here, but which I know all of you know, but also in the ears of everyone else who might be listening is that, even though we understand that we are saved by grace through faith, we're saved by the law of faith which superseded the law of Moses. We are not saying that the law itself was not good. We are recognizing that the law was holy and righteous and pure and perfect and that if there was the slightest possibility that any man could obey it, that man who could would be saved. And in this case, all men have fallen short. No man has been able to do it, except for one.
Speaker 8:All that the law does, Jonathan, is show us that we are broken before God. It reveals. It reveals Without exception. Right Without exception.
Speaker 1:And that is what the first and see. Let me say something about this for a second, if you go into 2nd Corinthians, chapter 3, because that's where we're going to spend the rest of the time, because Paul basically interprets this whole situation with Moses and the veil. Paul explains all of it in 2 Corinthians, chapter 3. But it's important for us to understand the law itself. It is designed in its effect. The law had one purpose. It is designed in its effect. So here's my next question to everybody, before I get into second corinthians what do you believe was the design and the effect of the law of god?
Speaker 6:let me start with you, meg you said it's what was the law.
Speaker 1:What was the design, in other words, what was God's design in giving the law and what was the effect of God giving the law, what was his design, what was his purpose and what was his effect?
Speaker 6:The purpose was to reveal sin and the effect was to save us from sin do you think so? You want to stick to that answer well, if you see why moses, who represented the law right, couldn't go into the promised land. It wasn't, I don't think it was moses, it was his disobedience. But at the same time, the law could not go where the promise was okay canaan.
Speaker 1:What do you think, brother? The design and the effect of the law? What is your thoughts?
Speaker 4:that's a good question. I I think that the design was to show us our inability to ever fully complete it, and I would say the effect is the uh, not really sure how to phrase it exactly joni said it.
Speaker 6:Huh, joni said it what did she say? She said, to show us we couldn't work our way to him. I think that's a good one I think.
Speaker 1:I think that that's part of. I think that what, what can't have said and what joni said is are both right. I want to see if anybody has anything they want to add to it. What was the design and the effect so far?
Speaker 6:we got two, two good answers for the design ah, that we went to slaves of the law, to free like we went we're now. I'm talking about what?
Speaker 1:I'm talking about what was and is the effect of the law, the effect effect, the salvation huh.
Speaker 6:Salvation.
Speaker 8:No no, lisa calls the stone tablets. Hold on.
Speaker 1:Hold on one second, lisa. What are your? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Well, the effect showed us our need for a savior. God put the you know, put the law in effect and required a sacrifice. Required what's the word? Atonement? You had to pay for your sin and we couldn't keep it. So the old covenant. Of course, they were sacrificing animals, so there needed to be blood.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's all right. That's all right. This is why we're doing this. This is why we're doing this. Candy Girl. What's your thoughts? What was the? I think that so far. Well, you're wording the question. Brother Jonathan, I'm confused. No, I'm not, I'm asking. Normally I do have trouble with that, but the design of it I think most people are going to get, because everybody's getting that. So far, candy girl, go ahead. What is the actual effect?
Speaker 2:The separation between God's glory and the sinfulness of people.
Speaker 1:All right, I like that one. I like that. Anybody else want to get it Want?
Speaker 7:to chime in on this one. The fact was that the whole world became guilty, exactly.
Speaker 1:But what did?
Speaker 5:the. So what does so what? And I'm looking for there's really one word. It brings everybody under condemnation, everybody. It kills.
Speaker 1:The law kills.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're going to have to ask that question a different way. I'm like me. No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I said what was the effect of the law? What's the effect of it?
Speaker 5:Death.
Speaker 1:If you eat poison, what's the effect of it? Death if you eat. If you eat poison, what's the effect of it?
Speaker 3:you yeah, you are alive and that was the whole point is everybody was referring to man's laws, which was killing and hurting people, which is against god's right, god's spirit law yeah, no.
Speaker 1:But see, and here's the reason why, let me tell you the reason why I press on this, because and here's the reason why, let me tell you the reason why I press on this because sometimes we, as believers, we want to get too deep and we realize that is really not that deep in a lot of these aspects. The design I think all of us got right. The design is to reveal our sinful nature, to reveal our, our sort of inadequacy, to reveal our misgivings as it comes to the relationship between us and God. However, that's the design, the revelation part, what it reveals. But the effect is something that is the result of what it actually does.
Speaker 1:Our relationship to the law does and did one thing it destroyed us, it condemned us. In 2 Corinthians 3, verse seven, it says "'If the ministration of death "'written and engraven in stones was glorious'". Remember, moses came down from the mountain with the stones and the law and his face was shining right. His face was shining glorious, but he brought down from that mountain the ministration of death. Does anybody want to give me what they think the word ministration means? Anybody?
Speaker 8:Paul identifies the law, although leading to death, as nonetheless glorious, because it was God speaking to his people and showing them how to live.
Speaker 1:But what is? What does he mean when he says but if the ministration of death, what is ministration?
Speaker 8:Working.
Speaker 5:The use of.
Speaker 1:To make use of working Angie. What were you going to say?
Speaker 2:Minister.
Speaker 1:So what it means is and you're all right. It means is you're all right. It means service, servicing. So the law was given by God to service death.