The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Frustrating God's Grace (PART 4 of 4)
Baptism represents a profound moment in a believer's journey – not as a requirement for salvation, but as a public declaration of an inward reality already accomplished through faith. This conversation explores the beautiful symbolism of baptism as "ceremonial marriage" between the believer and Christ, making visible our commitment to join ourselves to Him while turning away from the world.
Through personal testimonies, we hear moving accounts of believers who experienced baptism after genuine conversion – sometimes immediately, sometimes years later. These stories reveal the joy of public declaration, especially when shared with family members who make the same commitment. As one participant beautifully expressed, baptism is like "updating your relationship status" – you must be in the relationship before you can announce it to the world.
The discussion takes a sobering turn as we confront modern Christianity's tendency to nullify Christ's work. Many believers find creative excuses to avoid biblical practices like baptism, fellowship, and engagement with God's Word, revealing a troubling lack of desire for spiritual things. The contrast is striking – people willingly sit through marathon movie sessions but struggle with an hour-long sermon.
Paul's powerful warning in Galatians 2:21 anchors our exploration of grace versus law: "I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness came by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Adding any element of law-keeping to salvation not only frustrates God's grace but renders Christ's sacrifice meaningless. As one participant poignantly observed, returning to legalism after salvation is like "being freed from prison, then voluntarily walking back into your cell and locking the door."
We conclude with the profound truth that salvation has always been by grace through faith – from the beginning of time until now. Every person throughout history has been saved the same way, not by works or law-keeping, but by God's grace received through faith. Join us for this rich exploration of baptism, grace, and our eternal relationship with Christ.
That's emblematic of something that was already done inwardly. And so I'm not saying that people shouldn't be baptized, but sacrament, you know. But baptism, like communion, is a sacrament that Christ left behind for us to to show forth his death till he come. And so these, both of these two things, but you know, baptism is a single, a singular act that we do as it, as most people put it, the first act of obedience, symbolizing and telling the whole world I have joined myself to Christ, I've turned my back on the world and I've joined Christ, I've become part of his body, and that's what the baptism is showing. And we surround ourselves with witnesses, and those witnesses are also people who, in one way or another, have committed themselves to supporting our growth in that grace and in this faith. That's what it's all about. Lisa, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So when I was born again in 2020, I hadn't even considered baptism because I was raised Catholic, and so I just assumed I was baptized as a baby. That's what I thought. You know what I mean. And then it was the spirit himself that put it on my heart. I just had this I need to get baptized. And I called my daughter and I said do you want to get baptized with me? She said yes. I said do you want to get baptized with me? She said yes, I do, mom. And it was like the greatest day ever. I remember yeah, oh, it was beautiful, it was so beautiful. But I know that it comes after. Mine was two years after. We're not even talking like in the same year. So, definitely, I think he puts it on, you know your heart when you're well, I don't know. I want to say if you're ready. I guess it's different for everybody, but mine was definitely after.
Speaker 1:You know it's so, it's so funny because when you look at it, because you know, because, when you, when you look at it, baptism is really like this ceremonial marriage between the believer and the Lord. That's what it is. Can you imagine in some, in some regards, where you know, like, like, like I've known people that were going you know, this engagement has been a little bit too long, you know this engagement has been too long long. Somebody you need to pop the question well, that's what this is like, that's what this is like. I mean, imagine christ coming to you and saying I want to be, I want to my relationship with you, marry me, marry man, marry me, marry me.
Speaker 2:It was yes. I stood up and said I am his, I belong to Jesus Christ, that's right.
Speaker 1:Because the whole thing about our, about our, our fellowship with Christ and our coming to faith in him, is that we are establishing union, a union with him, and we are becoming one with him. And so when we delay these kinds of things, again it's symbolic the baptism and like you expressed, lisa, to me it seems like if you were a believer and you know the Word of God, why wouldn't this be something you want to do? It's a celebration, it's not a funeral oh yes, it was beautiful it's a celebration yeah.
Speaker 1:Mariah, go ahead, sister, you're gonna say something.
Speaker 5:I was just sitting here thinking and, as you guys are talking, I just feel like the world is just coming. It always has against Christ, but more so in the way that everything that Christ does is nullified. The baptism, the water baptism is way more important than the holy spirit. The cross, the works are way more important than the work on the cross, you know, and so these things. It just seems as though nothing christ does or told them that he came to do really matters anymore it's so, it's sad but it is true.
Speaker 1:Mean people, christians, are finding their ways. You know, I call them unbelieving Christians. They're finding their way, their all kind of creative ways to weasel out of everything that we should want to do, that we should desire to do. You know, I mean I, you know, when I was growing up, you know, sometimes you would go to a church. They would have, like you know, like you know how you had gathering of churches that were local but they were friendly churches to each other and sometimes you'd have four or five churches in one congregation, whichever church had the largest congregation hall, and you would hear three or four sermons in that day and then eat afterwards and it's like, and I can sit through it, if you can preach, I'm all there. You can preach, I'm all there for it, I'm all there for it.
Speaker 1:But today people get like, here's the crazy thing. My granddaughter, she went with one of her friends to a all day to the movie theater and they watched all of the marvel movies in one day at the theater. They were there from the morning till like midnight Watching all those movies. People will do this, but you get them to sit down in church for 45 minutes. It's like when is this going to end? Now, granted, if you're a preacher, it's kind of you know, but you get my point. These are things that we should want to end Now. Granted, if your preacher's kind of you know, but you get my point. These are things that we should want to do. We should want fellowship with one another. We should want to have somebody call us up and pray with us. We should love it when a preacher's up there bringing a word of God, you know, when he's like well, let me close it up. People should be going. No man, keep going, give us another verse. But this is not where we are today. This is not where we are today. They don't care. They don't care about learning the word of God. They don't care about the truth. They don't care. Oh, I don't like the music. I can't go. I don't like the music. Is that my kind of music?
Speaker 1:But Evie read that hymn. Now, she can read that hymn. I can only imagine what it's like when it's sung, when she sings it. But the lyrics itself are so uplifting and they're filled with doctrine and biblical understanding and a message that glorifies our Lord and Savior. But people don't want to hear it that way If they don't have like a 20-piece band with a bunch of people who are hooping and hollering and jumping around and you don't understand a word they're saying. You know they're not happy, or you know. I don't like the pastor's preaching style. One guy likes it general preaching. One guy likes it. One guy likes it General preaching. Another guy likes a fiery preacher. Is that, what is that? Was that the standard? Or is what he's saying what matters? But you bring up a good point, mariah. People just don't have the, the abiding desires anymore. They just, they just don't. Sister, angie, you're going to say something. So, angie, then God's Word, then Gray, I was going to say something.
Speaker 7:Mine was kind of like Lisa.
Speaker 7:I was baptized in a Catholic church as an infant and I just thought that that was just kind of like. So when I was born again, it was just this thing that I wanted to follow Christ. I wanted to, just this thing that I wanted to follow christ. I wanted to explain to everybody that I belonged to him, so like. And then my daughter, hayley, asked if she could be baptized too. And I'm like, let's find someone to baptize us.
Speaker 7:So we asked a friend the one that led me back to the cross and he was like what do you think? I said it don't matter, baptize us. And we found a place, and it was another person that asked him. And we found you in the middle of the park, across from a catholic church, in the middle of the park, and got baptized. And at that moment it was just like, I was like lisa, I belong to jesus, I've just followed in his footsteps, I just want to be going, I just want, I want to belong to him. And so it was never, it was, it was always in the spirit first, and then it was. I was drawn to be baptized. And so when I saw my daughter asking me hey, can I go with you too? That was the most, absolutely beautiful thing and I could go. I would be yes, let's go. So we were trying to find all these things, but it was like it was never a work of being baptized first and then you know no, I belong to Christ before this.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, sister, god's word.
Speaker 7:Brought the bride. So I mean, I just thought that that was absolutely beautiful. At least I shared that Mine was kind of the same, but I got to have my daughter with me in that as well, so that was beautiful.
Speaker 1:God's word Next up.
Speaker 8:Mine, my story, my baptism was a bit different. I was a believer first. I believed the word. I got saved, whatever you want to call it, and accepted the word in.
Speaker 8:June of 93. But I didn't get baptized until 2020. I was attending the Mormon church. The reason I didn't get baptized before then was not because of lack of faith or anything. It was because I would go to these churches and watch and observe and I would listen to what they were saying and they were like, oh, you've got to do this to get baptized and join Archer. So I was like, no, they're not preaching the right thing, so I didn't get baptized in that way.
Speaker 8:Plus, I wanted to get baptized in a river and I was wanting to walk as Christ because, as he tells us, we do this to fulfill all righteousness and we're trying to be holy as he is holy, be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. So I'm like, ok, I want to try to do it in his manner, which is what I was being called to do. And now here come the Mormons talking about oh, you've got to only get it done by a certain person that has the authority, because the authority was, I mean, that's not biblical. So I'm like, you know, I prayed about it and God said use these Mormons to get baptized, because all these other churches are wanting you to do all this other stuff. So just, you're not doing.
Speaker 8:It Doesn't matter who has the authority. I have the authority I mean not meaning me but God has the authority to give you the Holy Spirit. They don't. So I'm like, ok, I'll use them to get baptized. So they were like, okay, well, we'll do it in a river. Well, they lied to me. They said, oh, we'll come to our church and do it.
Speaker 8:So I'm like, okay, well, can I read Matthew where he says I'm doing this to fulfill all righteousness, not for salvation, but for fulfill all righteousness. And they're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, you can say this. So right before I get ready to go in there, then they say, oh, you can't say that, we're a lot, we, and they changed everything. Right, I went ahead and did it. I could have made a scene and you know, y'all lied. But I went and got baptized and I sit in their church and the Holy Spirit spoke to me while I was reading the Bible, because I didn't listen to what they had to say. All they got up there talking about was how the Book of Mormon was true and how Joseph Smith was this and Joseph Smith was that. I'm sitting there reading the Bible because I've already read it before. I mean I'm not boasting, but I knew the Lord before I got there. So I mean it was.
Speaker 8:And the Holy Spirit was sitting there saying these people were preaching the wrong gospel. Preach to them about what's going on. And the more I preached to them, then they were like oh, you're a scriptural expert, you're excommunicated. Now they want to kick you out. And, like I said, then they start to show up at your house thinking oh well, you're not really doing God's work when you're helping your brother out, which a brother is? Somebody that believes. You were talking about who's a brother and this, that, and how you treat different people. When you say time to go, the Holy Spirit will tell you when it's time to let people go, and that's the reason I didn't go to the church, no more.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. They can go to their church no more. Absolutely. Yeah, sometimes it's necessary to do. You got to do that sometimes.
Speaker 6:Brother Greg and then Evie. Yes, baptism is like updating your Facebook status in a relationship Right.
Speaker 1:You're making it public, right? Yeah, you put it out there, yeah.
Speaker 6:See, you already have to be in a relationship before you update the status. Right Boy, did I find that out the hard way.
Speaker 1:That's true, but that's what it is. It is making that, it is making your relationship with Christ, with christ, see, because it it what it does, is it? It really it? Either you're either telling people I'm, I, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm serving this lord, I'm serving the lord jesus christ, or it puts you on the spot to let people you know, for you to really understand whether or not you are a believer or not. Because it's one of the kind of things where where, if you don't want to do it, it's sort of like I'm asking person to question why, why would you not? Why would you not want to? I mean, it's one thing if you know, you got some kind of I don't know a phobia or something I don't know, I don't know, but why would you not want to?
Speaker 1:The Puritans they used to make a big deal out of it, because, and then what they would do is, whenever people started to go astray or they were having trouble in their walk, whatever, they would always say remember your baptism. And what are they saying? They were saying go back to the cross, go back to the cross, go back to the cross. You know, always go back to the cross, whatever is going on with you in your life, whatever hardship, whatever struggle, whatever. Whatever is weighing heavy on you. Remember your baptism. Go back to the cross. Sister Evie, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Because I know you're going to be closing soon. Just remember to pray, guys, on the platform for our missions team. We're leaving on Sunday we will encounter while we're out there, you know we're going into a country that it's still in under a lot of idolatry, so they're really into like the brujería santería, stuff like that. So they're looking for, even in Christianity, a big spiritualism so very, you know, you have your very charismatic things like that. And we're meeting with missionaries that are straight up like Reformed Baptists, straight up 1689ers. So you know they're really solid in their then their teaching.
Speaker 3:And so you know, we do see a lot like when we go to the orphanages or when we go to the widows, like the one time there was this lady and she like flew her head back and was like shaking in her bed and we were all just standing there like what is going on for her? We you know what was going on. So we fall into a lot of things sometimes. Just ask the Lord to really help us. Um, be, you know, be mindful of those things, and our main focus is to show them who Christ is, because they're still in, you know, false understanding of who he is and you know what the mission is, so yeah.
Speaker 1:But I have been and I and I will continue and not you know, I hope that everybody here can remember to um, remember to appeal to the Lord on Evie's behalf so that these folks can hear the gospel preaching. They will have the boldness to be able to do so, and do so without filter, because it's a hard job to go out there and to do that and to be focused on bringing the gospel to people. So I commend you, evie, and everybody that's along with you and I will certainly be, and I hope many other people here will also be praying on your behalf that you guys are successful.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of spiritual warfare. Guys, this stuff is real. You know what I'm saying. I'm leaving my three-year-old baby behind my you know my husband with my kids. You know, just pray that, um. You know this is. This is real stuff. You know this is spiritual battle. You know it's a soul winning thing and you know there's people getting sick and things like that. You know jobs on the line. I mean it's just real. You know we got to get insurance while we're out there because anybody can get sick. So I mean we've had people getting sick before. Um, like really sick, we can't drink the water, so we just have to be careful yeah, well, definitely do that.
Speaker 1:Be you know, be very diligent and what you, what you're doing out there, and you got some people out here that'll be looking out for you when and how long you're gonna be there for he's from the 27th of july to the 3 of August and then when, as soon as I come back.
Speaker 3:I'm sure some of you know my mom passed away on July 15th, so we just talked about the logistics, about that. So there's a lot going on. But the Lord's plan is greater and you know he knows how to sustain his people. He knows how to bring us comfort, even in our suffering. So you know it's been. He knows how to bring us comfort even in our suffering.
Speaker 1:So you know it's been. It's been a pretty long journey. Amen, sister. Well, stay faithful and you will do. You do well and, like Mariah, condolences to you and your family, because I don't think I realize that. Maybe you did tell me I'm not sure about your mom, but but all the best to you guys, and may God provide you all the things, all the desires of your heart. For sure, absolutely so. Our last verse I'll make it quick Verse 21,. Galatians, chapter 2, verse 21.
Speaker 1:Paul says I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness came by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. And, brethren, you got to understand this. This is a serious, serious statement. Paul makes serious statement. He says I do not frustrate the grace of God. What is frustrating the grace of God? It is blending in law keeping for righteousness. When you start trying to fold in or add an additional ingredient into the grace of God, you are frustrating the grace of God. And he says that if righteousness came by the law, if righteousness came by the law listen to this came by the law, listen to this Then Christ is dead in vain. It is a useless death. Anyone who still claims that there are any element of any law necessary and or coupled with the grace of God in order to salvation. Not only is it a frustration of the grace of God, but it would mean that Christ is dead in vain.
Speaker 1:So you got all these people that will tell you you need this, you need that, you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that. And if you're doing these kind of things, even though you've been saved by grace, your salvation has been made void because you didn't keep these laws or do these things or whatever. It's a lie and it is a frustration of the gospel, of the grace of God. It is a frustration of everything that we hold dear to. It is building up again the very thing that we torn down.
Speaker 1:As Paul put it, why go back to the weak and the beggarly elements of the world where these kinds of things are contained? He says, when you do these kinds of things are contained. He says, when you do these kinds of things, you void the significance and the efficacy of the death of Christ. You render it a vain thing. It is not only to dilute the work of Christ, but it means that, as Paul says, that Christ is dead in vain. It was a useless death.
Speaker 1:So, everything that you add and be careful what you, what you add to the gospel, because everybody could, because so many of us are always inclined to add that, but, but, but we let God deal with the sanctification process on folks. We let God deal with the sanctification process on folks when we see them deviating or if we see them living a life that we construe as an antinomian pursuit, meaning without law. No, we believe that the law is good. We know that the law is good, we know that it is just and holy, we know that it falls from God, but we also understand that it cannot save us, and neither was that ever the intent. It couldn't be the intent ever. If Christ himself was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He was already set. He was already set to come here and do this redemptive work for all of us.
Speaker 9:May I go?
Speaker 1:ahead.
Speaker 9:I just think that, like going back to the law after being saved, is like being freed from prison and then voluntarily walking back into the cell and locking the door.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 9:Because you're under condemnation, when Christ has set us free. And Galatians 5.1 says for freedom, Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 9:You know the.
Speaker 1:Thing about it is. Even the law wouldn't want you back.
Speaker 9:Well, even if you went to the law, just like it says in Hebrews, there remains no sacrifice for sin because Christ came. So there ain't nothing there.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right. Well, here's where we come to, where we give everybody their last word for the night no sermons. So I'll start with you. Super Bowl, you were the new one on the block, so I'll give you the first word this time, the first last word to close us out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know. Everybody from the beginning of time has always been saved by grace. It was nothing that they did. Everyone is saved the same and the law can't save you. And you know it's been the same for everyone, Even when they were under the law. The law didn't save. We can clearly see that. So if the law didn't save, how were they saved? They were saved by the grace of God, and now we're given it freely, by not being under the law. So why would you have to be baptized?
Speaker 4:or you have to do this or you have to do that, because the Bible says this or the Bible says that. No, because that goes against Christ actually saving people by his grace through their faith, and that would make God a liar because he's going to treat one group of people a certain way and then put other people into a certain way. He's not going to save everybody the same. No, that is not just, and God is just, so everybody from the beginning of time has always been saved by grace.
Speaker 1:Man, I'm glad you said that you know this should be the mantra of all Christian Christians Salvation is always the same. This is why, like, why, like somebody said earlier I can remember who it was we're talking about you know somebody mentioned dispensationalism. This is why this is my problem with dispensationalism. This this is the biggest problem is that there are multiple ways there. There are multiple gospels and different ways of salvation throughout the different ages, and it's a lie. What Brother Superbowl just said is 100% on the mark. Salvation has always been the same and has always been by grace, through faith, always God's word.
Speaker 8:Last word Right. That point has always been about grace, because once we fell out of the garden, none of us deserved to return back to him in that garden and if it wasn't for his grace and the prophecy of the five and a half days, every one of us would have been kicked out of the garden and never allowed to return. But his elect was chosen because we heard his voice, we appreciate his grace and we know him and strive to be holy as he is, becoming one with him, as he is one with the Father, as we're me and you are one, because we are all one in the body of Christ, holy and purified and sanctified and justified in heaven. And I'll take that.
Speaker 1:Brother Greg, last word. I don't know if I really have any Nice shirt. California. All right, sister Lisa, go ahead, since I got you on there already, go ahead. What's your last word?
Speaker 2:sister. Last word, I just want to read God's word Galatians 5, verses 3 and 4. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ. Yes, you are severed from Christ. You who would be justified by the law? You have fallen away from grace.
Speaker 8:Yes.
Speaker 2:Man, that's, you're severed from Christ. That is, yeah, I'm looking forward to dealing with that one.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to dealing with that one, because that's a verse that is always being used to say, see, you can lose your salvation, but it's not saying that you can lose your salvation. But we're going to deal with that one. But that's a great verse, sister. To ring up, sister Evie, last word.
Speaker 3:Back to worship music. Okay, I'm going to read a quick one from one of my other favorite hymns what gift of grace is Jesus, my Redeemer? There is no more for heaven now to give. He is my joy, my righteousness and freedom, my steadfast love, my deep and boundless peace. To this I hold. My hope is only Jesus, for my life is wholly bound to his. Oh, how strange and divine I can sing. All is mine. Yet not I, but through Christ. In me the night is dark, but I am not forsaken, For by my side the Savior, he would stay. I labor on in weakness and rejoicing, for in my need his power is displayed.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that's so beautiful. I'm going to end up making this your job. Evie, when you come on, you got to bring one of these songs to us.
Speaker 3:Listen, baby rocking me, and that's not it. It has like three more paragraphs, but these songs, they're so solid in their doctrine. Listen to this last one With every breath. I long to follow Jesus, for he had said that he would bring me home and day by day I know he will renew me until I stand with joy before the throne, like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's beautiful. That's real beautiful. I'm a hymn pro, I like the hymns, I love the hymns.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love the hymns. I'm a hymn rocker. Yeah, jonathan, thank you so much. Thank you so much for always being so faithful to God's word. Like I am real funny with who I try to listen to. I'm always excited when you come on. I'm always excited to hear what Meg and Greg and Lisa and Angie and what everybody has to say. You know, mariah always comes with these bangers. I just love this platform. I love that you guys just stay connected and stay digging into the word and you know that you guys just stay connected and stay digging into the word and you know just being persuaded and I really love that. So, thanks again. It's been uplifting my spirit, especially in real, you know, dark seasons. The more I understand God's word, the more I have this joy. That's immeasurable.
Speaker 1:So I really do thank you. Well, I appreciate the kind words and the generous attention that you give when you come in, so we look forward to having you back here as often as you want to be here, for sure, sister Meg.
Speaker 9:Last word Did Meg go to sleep? No, I didn't. Can I read Psalm 32 real quick? Go ahead, yep, okay. It says blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man into whom the Lord imputeth no inequity and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Speaker 9:When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring. All the day long, for day, for day and night, thy hand was upon me. My moisture is turned into the drought of summer All the day long. Shall everyone that is godly pray unto thee. In a time when thou mayest be found, surely, in the floods of great waters, they shall not come on nigh unto him. Thou out my hiding place. Thou shall preserve me from trouble. Thou shall compass me about with songs of deliverance. I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way in which thou shall go, and I will guide thee with mine eye. Be not as the horse or as the mule, which have no understanding, whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle lest they come near unto thee. Many sorrows shall be in the wicked, but he that trusted in the Lord mercy shall compass him about. Be glad in the Lord and rejoice yea righteousness, and shout for joy, all ye are upright in heart.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, sister. Thank you for that, sister Mariah, the last word for the night, sister.
Speaker 5:So I was just thinking, and while you were saying the contrast between the law and uh, and faith, I just couldn't help but to think about in revelation 22 when it's saying like if anyone takes ads or takes away from what is written in this book, he too will take um, add on to the plagues and he will take out his name from the book of life. And as I'm thinking this, I'm thinking, well, wow, don't they take away what Christ has done and don't they add on to themselves on what they have done, and shame on them, to their end is going to be destruction, because the word will add on to you and it won't be pleasure and he will take away and again to to no, no good and no end for you, you know. So I just wanted to share that because I was just like pretty much like a light bulb went off on me right, great words.
Speaker 1:Well, you know every. You know, in fact, I want to tell everybody too, because I know I got here about an hour later than that usually do, but I didn't want another, I didn't want another day to go by that I missed, because hopefully this upcoming week I'll finally get into our house so we can stabilize things, things out, but um. But in the meantime, I'm trying to get on here every day because I love it, I love doing this and I love doing it with you guys, this group of people. So I appreciate you all, and so it was a good night tonight and I'm looking forward to the next one, you know, tomorrow. That being said, be provoked and be persuaded.
Speaker 1:Or maybe we could go and be persuaded.
Speaker 7:All right.
Speaker 1:You guys have a great night. I look forward to fellowship with you tomorrow. Be around. If not, next time you can Okay.
Speaker 9:All right, god bless y'all, love y'all, bye God bless Good night, good night.