The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Abraham Believed God (Part 2 of 5)
Faith alone justifies—a cornerstone truth that many believers struggle to fully embrace. This powerful exploration of Galatians 3:6-8 reveals how Abraham's simple belief in God's promises secured his righteousness long before circumcision entered the picture. The timing is crucial: Abraham was declared righteous at 75 but wasn't circumcised until 99, demolishing any notion that external religious rituals contribute to salvation.
Like Abraham, we're prone to adding requirements to God's freely given grace. Whether it's baptism, speaking in tongues, or moral performance, our human nature gravitates toward earning what can only be received as gift. When Christ proclaimed "It is finished" on the cross, He meant exactly that—the work of salvation was completed in full, with nothing left for human hands to accomplish.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when examining Jesus' statement that "Abraham rejoiced to see My day; he saw it and was glad." Through eyes of faith, Abraham glimpsed Christ's redemptive work centuries before it occurred. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac on Mount Moriah (later associated with Jerusalem where Jesus would be crucified) foreshadowed God's ultimate sacrifice, revealing how faith sees what physical eyes cannot.
This teaching distinguishes between intellectual acknowledgment and genuine saving faith. Even demons "believe" in God's existence, but true faith involves complete trust in Christ's finished work. God's sovereign choice to save His elect flows from His nature, not external obligation. He saves whom He wills, not because He must, but because He has chosen to do so from before the foundation of the world.
Struggling with adding conditions to salvation? Remember Abraham's simple faith and Christ's complete work. Your justification rests not on what you do, but on what has already been done for you. Believe this truth, and let it transform your understanding of God's amazing grace.
To me. On my side came people ask me something. I help Can they ask you something. Every time when I can help, I help Right, okay, okay. So all that I can give, I give Right. All that I can give, I give Right. But I don't need something from others, right?
Speaker 4:I understand.
Speaker 1:When I'm in struggle, when I'm in struggle, someone I didn't know this name come and help me Right. Well, brother, here let me.
Speaker 4:Brother, brother, brother, hold on one second. Okay, Hold on one second, because we're dealing with a larger theme here. I'm doing an exposition on Galatians. I want to be able to go through it, so I don't want to derail the subject matter, but I do hear what you're saying and I respect you for saying that, and I respect you for saying that and I welcome you to stay and hang around. But here's what I'd like for you to do, if you don't mind. We're talking about justification by faith and we're going through the book of Galatians and we're in Galatians, chapter 3, verses 6 through 8. So what I want to ask respectfully respectfully, you know is that let's confine what we're talking about to the subject matter at hand, if you don't mind okay, is that?
Speaker 4:is that fair? Yes, it's fair, all right, all right, so let's do this, let's do this. So we left off with. It says even as abraham believed god and it was accounted to him for righteousness and I explained that the, the the counting of righteousness of that was given to, that was given to Abraham is because he believed God and that was all that was required was his believing.
Speaker 1:Can.
Speaker 4:I say you something?
Speaker 1:Yes, go ahead. So Abraham just believed in God. He was very, very in respect of God. He hears something that is not normal? Okay, that's right. He hears something that is not normal? Okay, he's absolutely destroyed.
Speaker 4:so the first time, of God's way is Moses right first, right, so, so, so, so, let me go on okay.
Speaker 1:Abel and kind. Abel and kind is the first way. Brother Kung Fu, Don't kill that.
Speaker 4:I, I tried. I'm sorry everybody. Brother Kung Fu, if you hear me, you're not listening. I'm asking you to go along with the program, with what we're talking about, and I don't want to let one person dominate the whole thing. So, but, respectfully, I welcome you back anytime you want to, but but you have to like there's more people here than just you, my friend. So we're going to keep going to like there's more people here than just you, my friend, so we're going to keep going.
Speaker 4:Now for everybody who's still here Abraham believed God. I'm going to get out of verse six at some point tonight. But Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Here's something else that we need to understand. We know how important circumcision was to the Jews. We understood that Very important to them. In a lot of ways it carried with it a lot of the same attachment that modern day Christians have toward water, baptism and in some in other cases, this charismatic Pentecostal second work of the Holy Spirit, baptism. And so, just like in that under that old covenant, we have the same type of thing going on in the new covenant, where people still believe there is something that needs to be added to faith in order to justification. But we are told clearly here and this is the part that I want to. I want to really nail home and I will beat this dead horse to the last day of my, to my last breath which is that justification is by faith alone. There is nothing else.
Speaker 4:Anyone who is listening, who is straddling the fence or wondering what they want to do and how salvation is obtained, understand this. It is simple. Do you believe that what the Lord Jesus Christ did on the cross, do you believe that he did it for you? Do you believe that he died for you? Do you believe that he resurrected for you and do you believe that, when he resurrected, your sins were gone and his righteousness became yours? If you believe that, that is all there is to it and the Holy Spirit is given to you in all the work, all of the work that need be done, all of the work that need be done is his work, Not yours, not mine. His work, work, not yours, not mine, his work. The Holy Spirit. When Christ left, he sent the Holy Spirit to come down here and to finish the work of salvation in the hearts where God rules and reigns in his people, we being his temple and we being his temple. His temple is where the true worship of God resides, nowhere else In God's chosen, elect people. And this is where we are Now notice this, because I brought up circumcision and baptism for a reason. Where we are Now notice this? Because I brought up circumcision and baptism for a reason, because Paul's argument here, with using Abraham as this example, he is showing that his argument is not only historical, but it is also theological. It is both theological and historical. Notice this, abraham.
Speaker 4:Let me ask the panel, let me ask anybody in the panel, anybody who wants to answer the question, feel free to answer. Just let it out. Abraham was justified by faith. When did circumcision come? Was it before he was justified or after? Anybody After, after? How do you know? Well, let me ask you a better question. It was, it was after. Circumcision came after. So here's a different question. What is the significance of that? If Abraham was justified by faith and circumcision came after, what does that tell you about circumcision?
Speaker 5:It doesn't save. It doesn't save. It has no salvation effect. It doesn't save. It doesn't save. It has no salvation effect. It doesn't affect salvation through grace. It's simply something that the Jews tried to attach to the look that Jesus did on the cross, and it didn't mean anything.
Speaker 4:Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 6:Does that make sense to you? Well, circumcision was by faith and uncircumcision is through faith. So Circumcision is not through anything. It's all done through faith, by faith.
Speaker 4:But the circumcision Was the result of someone who already had faith. Does that make sense? Anybody? Does anybody disagree? Think about this. Abraham was justified by faith and that faith was accounted to him for righteousness, but that came before circumcision was introduced. In fact, he was 99 years old when he was circumcised. So somehow along the lines, Jews got things twisted Right and aligned circumcision with being a necessity for being able to keep God's law and finding acceptance with God, when in fact that was never the case. It was never the case.
Speaker 5:It was a sign to seal his righteousness.
Speaker 4:Where are you reading from?
Speaker 1:That's Romans 4.11.
Speaker 4:So read that verse again.
Speaker 1:Abraham received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
Speaker 4:Right, right. And so here's the thing it was a, it was a sign, and intended to distinguish, to distinguish the people of God from those who were not, those who were not.
Speaker 2:Remember.
Speaker 4:Abraham was acknowledged as being faithful to God prior to receiving the circumcision, but the circumcision itself was emblematic of what Abraham had already done, and this is what needs to be understood. This is what needs to be understood.
Speaker 3:I just thought of something when you said that, because isn't that the same thing as when we're saved, and we're saved first and then we tend to go and get baptized because we follow Jesus? Same thing, just a modern day thing we do. So that's what I thought of when you said that.
Speaker 6:He says it with the baptism. The way it's read, is a seal of righteousness, of the faith. So before Jesus died we didn't receive the Holy Spirit. They received it from God himself or Jesus himself. But, that seal of circumcision is that kind of like the seal where we're sealed in the holy spirit, with the holy spirit yeah, it's, it's, it's sort of it sort of goes along the same way.
Speaker 4:but here's the thing. Here's the thing, because the which, what cannot be subtracted from the equation is this that abraham was accounted righteous before God before the circumcision. So what was the circumcision for? It was an outward work. It was an outward manifestation of something that had taken place inwardly within Abraham, the same way that baptism is an outward representation emblematic of a work that has already taken place within the believer that has come to faith in Jesus Christ and the believer that has come to faith in Jesus Christ. But what's important? Because if you understand what so far we have read in Galatians, chapter 1, through where we are now, we're understanding that the argument that Paul is making is that justification is by faith alone. People, no matter how often you read this text, people will find some kind of way to rationalize, including any work of any law, or one work of any law to be necessary to be attached to God's grave in order to salvation when there is none.
Speaker 8:That's just sinful human nature's desire to do that. I'm sorry to jump in like on that, Jonathan. I apologize but I wanted to get that comment. That is just simply our fleshly human nature that wants to add to grace and all we can add is nothing, that's right God's word.
Speaker 4:Go ahead, brother. You were going to say something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I said going back, just sitting here, thinking, you know, none of us deserve what he has granted us, and that is that grace. As I said before, we're all sinners, everybody, and and it's that grace that has saved us, because he called us as his elect, as, as he was saying, I was just sitting there thinking how grateful. And you were talking about the faith. It's that faith that makes us grateful, and his works in us I said his works, not my works, but his works in us cause us to show gratefulness and try to please him by doing those things Not us, not me doing them, it's him doing them and by those fruits that we produce.
Speaker 2:Others say hey, look at the good things that he did. Why is he doing that? He used to be a thief, he used to cuss, he used to use drugs, he used to get drunk. Why is he doing these good things now? It's not him doing it. That's where he's, oh, I'm not doing it. That's where you say, oh, I'm not doing it, it's God doing it. God's eating these things, not me, you give God's word.
Speaker 2:All glory to him. So when it comes, to Abraham.
Speaker 4:So what Paul's talking about, you know, he's referring to Abraham as one whose faith his faith, like ours is in God's promises, particularly and especially regarding the promised Christ who was to come. This is what Abraham had to look forward to this Messiah, the seed, coming here to finish this work, to be this lamb, which Abraham, no doubt, as we talked last week, as Abraham Abraham, no doubt when he took his son up there, isaac, to sacrifice him, and and when God told him hold on there, abraham, I'm going to supply a lamb for you. Well, it never got that far. It never got that far. It never got that far. But I think that, abraham, you know because and we know because of what we're going to read later on in John, when Christ says Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he did. Now, that's a heavy statement coming from the Messiah that so many people say is just a man, just a good prophet. But this is something. He is something different, materially different, spiritually different. He's not like us, he's not one of us, you know.
Speaker 4:And so to think about it is we need him. We needed him to come here and do for us what we ourselves could not do for ourselves. And if there's any law, because what Christ did was to come here to be obedient and to suffer as an obedient servant unto God in order that we, you and I, could be reconciled to him. And in order for him to do that, that means that what he did had to be complete. Hence it is finished. So anyone who says that there is something that they need to do in addition to what Christ has already done when he was here, you are saying that what he did was not finished, it was insufficient. He left something behind for salvation that you still need to do in order to complete it. And anyone who tells you that, if anyone tells you that there's anything other than believing in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, if they tell you there's anything to do extra outside of what he has already done, let him be accursed. Sister Angie, and then Meg.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, there's tons of times because you know, I teach a lot of people and I run into a lot of people and I mean, if you don't want to talk to me, you know, I mean if you don't want to talk to Jesus, you know, I mean that's all that's going to come out of me anyway, you know, and when I hear someone go and say, oh, but this or but that, I'm like what part of you? It is finished, did you not understand? You keep, you know, like what part of that did not compute? What part of that?
Speaker 3:are you not absorbing? What part of that is not written in your heart? And it's, you know? And it's like when he said it is finished there's. I mean because one of my sisters was arguing with someone about the prophet, this and probably that, and I go no, no, no, no, no, no. And so it was. It was she was arguing with someone she wanted me to help her with. With what? What should I say? And I'm like well, first of all, this person is it has a false doctrine, it has false theology. If they're thinking it's plus something else, I said the when jesus said it was finished on the cross, all prophecy was fulfilled, it was done. So there's nothing more than looking for him to come again. So we're preparing for the wedding.
Speaker 3:So if you're hearing anything outside of that, don't listen to it, don't pay attention to it, don't try to convince someone else otherwise, because they're not going to hear you. If they're arguing with it Now, someone that would go oh, I want to know more than that's someone, you go and give them pearls, but don't waste your time If someone's not and you have to say hey, what did you? What part of that didn't you understand? And then after that you definitely know where you're standing with that person.
Speaker 4:Just had to add that Yep May go ahead, sister.
Speaker 7:When you brought up John 8, 56, and you said your father Abraham rejoiced. Now listen to what he said, though. It says your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad he saw it and was glad he saw. So where could we say that Abraham saw if we're looking at it from a biblical standpoint? Back to what you said.
Speaker 7:So Isaac was being a type of son, the ram was the substitutionary atonement for his son. Ram was the substitutionary atonement for his son, and then mount moriah was later associated with jerusalem, where jesus would unalive, so he would. All of these things. In that story of genesis, chapter 22, we see that the same mountain that isaac took his son was the same mountain that Jesus was crucified on. So this, this thing, this, this experience that that Abraham had, was playing out in real time, um, even from the very beginning, because, because the Lord God named Isaac, just like he named Christ, and he was, he was a miracle, um, for Sarah and Abraham, just like Christ was a miracle from the Holy spirit, like we see all of these things that are so closely tied with Genesis, chapter 22,.
Speaker 7:But that's a whole nother study. That's a really good study, but and it says that Abraham in Hebrews, chapter 11, 13, 17 through 19,. It says that Abraham saw from afar. It says these all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them, them and greeted them from afar. So what did abraham have that allowed him to see? He had the eyes of faith there you go.
Speaker 7:He had the eyes of faith to perceive the future fulfillment of what was happening. He considered that god was able to even raise him from the dead, referring to the resurrection which links directly to Christ's resurrection. So everything is by faith, Abraham. Those who have faith are Abraham's seed. Glory to God. I just wanted to add that, because I've been gone for a while.
Speaker 4:That's a big addition and I like it. It's a good one and you know, and the thing about it is it's like you said, and we get a little bit more insight, especially when we look at Luke 16, when Christ talks about what some people believe is a parable I don't believe is a parable about the rich man and Lazarus and about how the rich man how about how Lazarus went into Abraham's bosom, you know. So I think that I think that everything you said, all of this, shows us that Abraham had insight that is not unlike the insight that any believer today has. We see things, like you said, sister, through the eyes of faith. Faith is the substance of that which is hoped for. It's the substance. It means it shows the reality.
Speaker 4:Christians see the reality of what is unseen, and this is what this is and see. The thing is. This is what I was saying earlier. This is what I was saying about how some people get bored. They get bored with not seeing with natural eyes. They get bored with not having something to feel that they are connected. But I don't get bored, and you shouldn't either, because we see things. We see the unseen things as substance, as substantial. We see the reality through the eyes of faith, and that is the only way it is meant for all the glories of heaven to come to be laid hold of through the eyes of faith, which happens here. But the ultimate reality will come when we leave here. But the Christian already understands that and sees it now. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.
Speaker 8:For you and you and the panel. Jonathan, how do you get bored with an infinite, eternal God that has given you the greatest gift, God that has given you the greatest gift there could possibly be the death and life and death of his son to bring us back into relationship with the father. How can you get bored with that?
Speaker 4:because I'm gonna tell you, no, the true Christian can't. But I'm gonna tell you something there's a big difference because, see, when we, when we look at this passage, verse six and it talks about how. It talks about how Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. But we need to understand that Abraham trusted God. He trusted God's promise fully, perfectly and completely. He didn't simply acknowledge it, he believed it.
Speaker 4:There are many unbelieving Christians and they are such because they only acknowledge these truths. They acknowledge them. They even quote unquote accept it. They acknowledge them. They even quote unquote, accept it, but they don't really believe. This is why you find them later on down the road saying well, I used to believe that Christian stuff, I don't believe it anymore. I know I'm a, I'm a deconstructionist of Christians. No, you're an idiot, that's what you are. You're a reprobate. And I'm not talking about intellectual capacity or anything on the IQ aspect of this whole thing, because we all know that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, but the idiots of the kingdom of God, if we would look at that, would be those who are wise in this world, and so the thing about it is we don't just acknowledge these truths to be true, we don't just acknowledge it, we actually believe it. That's what separates us from devils and demons who also believe. They acknowledge these truths, they acknowledge the expectation that we are looking forward to, that they have no part in, and yet they're not believers and they're certainly not saved.
Speaker 4:Satan knows exactly who Jesus is. Every fallen angel. They know who Jesus is, what he did, what he's going to do and what he knows. He knows the gospel better than I do, better than you do. He knows what it means. He knows what it does. He knows the efficacy that it imports. He knows what it does. He knows the efficacy that it imports. He knows that, yet he himself can't bring it to. He can't bring himself to salvation because God never provided any way for him to be redeemed. But he did for sinful men and he didn't do it for all sinful men. Which is why that's the impetus as to why we need to go out and preach to all, because it is the means through which the gospel is communicated to that lost soul who God has chosen in his eternal decree to give to Christ, to redeem and to be regenerated by his Holy Spirit and then to be justified by grace and to go into glory. For the Christian, this is all, 101.
Speaker 2:Brother.
Speaker 5:Jeffrey go ahead.
Speaker 8:Wouldn't it then be possible, on judgment day, that the devil and his angels stand before God and they make the argument? You gave the people the opportunity, through Christ, to come to repentance, but you never gave that to us before we were cast down. Let me ask you this question Is that a valid argument?
Speaker 4:is what I'm asking. No, no, it's not a valid argument, because what it does, because what it does is, it assumes that god is obligated to save any, when he's not obligated to save any at all. Remember our salvation, our, is based on a pardon, forgiveness. It is based on God's election. His choice Is all the reason. Remember what God does to us.
Speaker 4:If men were doing it, it would seem something very different. It would look very different, it would look selfish, it would look narcissistic, it would look whatever. But God only deals with one thing, and that is the truth. All of us are sinners before God. All of us, all of us, deserve penal retribution, and that for an eternity.
Speaker 4:So if God decides to overturn a sentence by part and by a pardon, by which he himself himself come here in the form of human flesh in order to, in order to die in our stead, in order that we might be justified by his substitution, god is the no obligation. Man operates with a sense of fairness. That God must do if he's God in their eyes, and this is what people do. If God is a loving God, he wouldn't do this, he wouldn't do that, he would do this, he would do that. No, god is under no obligation to do anything. And if God did what was absolutely just, if he did, if he executed absolute justice, as so many people here on Earth want to see amongst other humanity, then we would all be dead.
Speaker 7:We would all be obligated by love.
Speaker 4:We would all be. God is under no obligation At all period Ever. He himself Obligated Himself To save His chosen elect people that were chosen in him before the foundation Of the world, and that's what he chose to do. So the person who can't believe, like this guy here, speak for yourself. No, I'm speaking for you too, brother. I'm telling you what the word of God says, and everybody listening must believe this. He chose those who would be his to believe and those who don't believe. They don't believe because they are already dead and in sin. It is those of us who are alive, who were made alive, made alive by him, by which he had no obligation and was under no obligation or any other outside external impulse to save. He saves who he wants. When you have your house, all of us have our own homes. We choose who we let in our home. God does the same thing.
Speaker 7:Meg go ahead may go ahead. Just think that it just gets to a place where and when you sit. Well, I sit in other lives, but and listen to people talk, you hear people speak as though they are telling god how to act. Well, god wouldn't act this way, or he wouldn't be this way, or if God is this, then he wouldn't do this. But it makes me question to myself do you know God?
Speaker 7:Because I, when you read, I encourage everybody to study the attributes of God and it brings, once studied, it brings this peace that literally surpasses all understanding, because for the very first moment in your walk, you experience who he is and how powerful and mighty he is. You see where your reverence comes from, where your fear of the Lord comes from, you see where your humbleness comes from and your surrender comes from, and that all we do is simply bow. I mean, that is all that we can do, because God, god, is a law unto himself and he does not have to make his matters known to anyone. He has no he, he just doesn't. He is God.
Speaker 7:And for for the, for the roles to be reversed, as if we are the potter and he is the clay, is insane, and I will tell you this if you sit and you listen to people, it is people reading scripture as though that what I just said was true, that they are the potter and god is the clay. But it's the complete and utter opposite. And when you read about these things and understand them, they're in. That's all I can say. I mean it that simple. Therein lies the peace of God, because it is man.
Speaker 4:Here's what you know. Here's what you know. You're going into dangerous territory, dark waters. I see you, angie, so I'm calling you next. Here's where you know you're going into dark territory, or somebody else is going into dark territory.
Speaker 4:When they do, when they start telling you what they're saying God would do or couldn't do. I saying God would do or couldn't do, I mean God do or shouldn't do. If, in other words, you hear something like this if God were God, if he were really God, he wouldn't do this or he should do that or whatever there. But see, when you brought up the attributes of God, when we understand the attributes of God, it tells you that there are things that God can't do. So there is that which God does do and there is those things which God can't do. And if you know anything about the attributes of God, you would know that me saying that is a result of having a proper understanding of the fact that God cannot change.
Speaker 4:Think about this for a second. I could ask, meg, we talked about what we talked in text earlier and I asked a question. We're talking about love and hate. So here's the thing we know that God loves individuals. The scripture tells us that God loves individuals. The scripture tells us that God hates individuals. People can get all in an uproar. How can God hate? If God is God, he can't hate. How do you know what love is then? How do you know what love is? How can you be sure you understand God's love If you're saying that hate is something abstract when it's not so? Here's my point. Let's talk about, let's look at for just a brief second. Then I'm going to call on Angie and then Banana.
Speaker 4:If God can't change and we know that because that's essential to his nature that he cannot change, he can't lie, god can't change. With him there is no variableness or shadow of turning at all. So now, this is why, in Matthew 7, christ can say at judgment day depart from me, you, workers of iniquity. I never knew you. He said I never. He didn't say I knew you and then didn't, which would be kind of absurd, but he says he never knew. In other words, his connection to those who he never knew is what it was at the day of judgment, and that's what it was from the day of birth. They were those who he never knew, ever.
Speaker 4:Look at it another way. If God can't change, if you say he loves every single person that has ever been born, and you ignore the parts where he talks about those who he hates. And why, then you have to ask yourself the question does God send anyone to hell whom he loves? That doesn't make sense, because Hebrews tells us that the Lord chastens those whom he loves. So chastening, what does chastening do? Chastening corrects, corrects. Chastening of God puts the person he loves on the right footing, on the right path, brings them to the right end. Can this be said about those that end up in hell? Are we saying that God chastened?