The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Abraham Believed God (Part 4 of 5)
Journey into one of Christianity's most divisive theological territories as a passionate debate unfolds around divine election, God's sovereignty, and the nature of salvation. What begins as a discussion about 2 Peter's teachings on Christ's return quickly ignites into an emotionally charged confrontation about whether God truly loves everyone or selectively chooses who will be saved.
The conversation reaches its boiling point when examining biblical passages stating God "hates evildoers" and "is angry with the wicked every day." These Psalms create profound tension against the backdrop of John 3:16's declaration that "God so loved the world." As one participant emotionally protests, "You cannot sit here and tell me that a loving God produced people destined to spend eternity away from him," we witness the raw human struggle to reconcile divine sovereignty with divine love.
This episode doesn't shy away from Scripture's most challenging passages. Through Romans 9, John 15:16, and Acts 13:48, participants build case for election being tied to God's purpose rather than human performance. The discussion culminates in a fascinating comparison: when angels fell, God provided no redemption, yet for fallen humanity, Christ became incarnate to save—but does this salvation extend to all or only to those chosen before time began?
Whether you lean Calvinist or Arminian, or simply want to better understand these perspectives, this theological deep-dive will challenge your thinking and encourage you to examine what Scripture truly teaches about God's character. How do we find peace with doctrines that conflict with our intuitive sense of fairness? Listen now and join this crucial conversation.
The scoffers are going out and going oh, this guy's crazy, he's nuts. And then the floods came and they all perished. And now Peter says but the heavens Now remember, he's trying to bring comfort to the people who are hearing and listening to the scoffers. So he says in verse 8, but the heavens and the earth, which are now by contrast to the heavens and earth that suffered, that were destroyed by the flood, he says by the same word, are kept in store, reserved for fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. In other words, what he's saying is this just like everything that happened during the days of the flood, same thing has happened now. The only difference is going to change is the elements that God is going to use to destroy it. Then it was water, this time it will be fire. But the one thing that will be consistent is how long before the event actually takes place.
Speaker 1:So now he uses that by talking about what he says in verse six and seven. So in 7, he says but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word, kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. So now he makes a transition. I was talking about the ungodly men and the perdition of ungodly men, the outcome of their scoffing and their ridicule and mockery. And now he goes to verse eight and he makes a transition. Who is he talking to in verse eight? You tell me.
Speaker 2:Well, he's saying don't overlook this fact beloved.
Speaker 1:No, but I mean yeah. Okay, but again he's talking to believers.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that he's not Okay, but again, he's talking to believers. I'm not saying that he's not okay, but he's also saying to believers that the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promises Some count slowest, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. So if he's saying, if he's talking to believers about this promise, why is Peter telling believers that God is patient for them to come to repentance, when repentance brings about salvation?
Speaker 1:I hear you. Okay, I'm explaining to you why. I'm explaining to you why you change your mind from unbelief to belief.
Speaker 2:I'm explaining to you why you change your mind. I'm explaining to you why Well, you change I today.
Speaker 1:Right, the world is still going on. Why do you think the world is continuing right now?
Speaker 2:Because God is waiting.
Speaker 1:Waiting for what?
Speaker 2:For all to come to repentance, or all that should come to repentance.
Speaker 1:All who should. Who are they?
Speaker 2:The unbelievers.
Speaker 1:Unbelievers who were chosen in God before the foundation of the world, his people, his sheep, or all people, his sheep in your mind, not the unbelievers, no no, they're not. So what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:so here's here's what's happening you, we, so you're isolating the people that have already repented. But that's not who God's talking about. Uh, only he's saying that the reason why I'm delaying and the reason why it might be construed that I'm being slack, is because I am holding on until every one of my sheep comes into the fold. So that's what he means when he says.
Speaker 2:So here's the misunderstanding. Is that the way that I was processing this? Is that you were saying that Peter was telling believers that God is being patient because he wants believers to come to repentance, because Peter is speaking to believers here.
Speaker 1:No, no, peter is explaining why the Lord hasn't returned yet, because all of God's people have not come to repentance yet.
Speaker 2:Okay, so in that regard now your Bible version might say something different, but in verse nine mine says but that all should reach repentance.
Speaker 1:And how do you take should to mean? What do think that means? You mean that's optional?
Speaker 2:it means they, it means they should, but that doesn't mean that they will so.
Speaker 1:So then, how do you? And how do you take not willing?
Speaker 2:yeah, god is not willing that any should perish so so how do you so? Come to repentance I know.
Speaker 1:So what I'm asking this is how do you take god's not willing? Do you think his willing means what he wishes for, which is what your version might say? Are you saying this is what god wishes, that he's wishing that it that none, that none should perish, or that it is his will that none should perish, meaning that that is will be, that his will is the outcome? So you put an emphasis on should the emphasis should be put on him not willing. He is he's saying here God is long suffering to us, his people, believers, because here's what you also have to say in his context, here's what you also have to understand. Is this when he says us-ward, is he talking about all mankind?
Speaker 2:Well, it says in John 3.16 that God so loved the world. So if he loved the world, that would be all mankind.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean that at all. So how do you explain, when god says he hated esau?
Speaker 2:well, he didn't like him because jesus also said that that's not what the brother, that's not what it said, that's not brother, brother, that's not what it said.
Speaker 1:It said he hated esau, did it not? Yes okay, so if god, let's put it this way if god hated just strong.
Speaker 2:But that's also just strong language, because jesus said if you, if you, if you don't hate your mother or father over me, okay, does that mean that I'm supposed to hate my father to love jesus?
Speaker 1:no, it doesn't so. So then?
Speaker 2:when it says that god hated esau, that means that he didn't desire him as much as Jacob. Okay, it doesn't mean that he absolutely hated Esau.
Speaker 1:Well, here's what I will say. Here's what I will say. Put it this way we can go down a rabbit hole for a minute if you're willing to.
Speaker 2:If you're willing to, but I don't want to take up the entire time with this.
Speaker 1:No, but this has to be no, no, no, it's okay, it's okay. Turn to Psalm chapter 5. Because this is what we do, turn to Psalm chapter 5.
Speaker 2:Give me just a second here, psalm 5.
Speaker 1:Read verse 5 and tell me how you interpret that.
Speaker 2:The boastful shall not stand before your eyes. You hate all evil doers. How do you? Explain that Well, yeah, God hates evil doers.
Speaker 1:Well, you just said that God loves everybody, right?
Speaker 2:For God so loved the world.
Speaker 1:So how do you?
Speaker 2:explain, Okay, so you'd also have to reconcile this that God hates evildoers, with us being an enemy of God and Christ unaliving on the cross, even while we were enemies of God.
Speaker 1:So how do you explain?
Speaker 2:so, so psalms. What this psalms right here is before. Jesus was even on the earth. So god changed. We were enemies, hang on. We were enemies with god, but christ still did what he did. So if we were enemies of God and God hated us, that would go against John 3, 16 of God. So loved the world, hold on.
Speaker 1:I understand, look, I understand where you're coming from because you have to come this way. So what I'm saying is this we know that. We know that Jesus said God so loved the world. I don't know, that is not an exceptional thing, that's not in the sense of he loves everyone without exception, because what Jesus was dealing with and what he was explaining to the Jews was that they were not the only people that God loved, that God loves people of every tongue, kindred and ethnicity. That's what Jesus was saying, not that he loves every man without exception, but that he loves every man without distinction. So now, when John, when you see the thing about it is, everybody knows has the assumption of what it means when Jesus, when Jesus says God so loved the world, but when you say when, when the scripture says God hated somebody, suddenly there's a lot of confusion. So when I asked you well, there's confusion here because, hold on, just hear me out for a second.
Speaker 2:So we're doing two different things here, because you're going to Psalms that says that God hates the evildoer, and so we have to reconcile that with us being enemies of God. If we were enemies of God, then that would mean that we also were evildoers in the eyes of God, which would mean that God hated us.
Speaker 1:So if God hated us? Why, would he send his son, so that we could be like a child. Can I ask? You a question. Let me just ask you a couple of questions. So when it says here in verse 5, psalm 5, 5, and I got others to go to, when it says you hate all workers of iniquity and I got others to go to, when it says you hate all workers of iniquity, no-transcript, no so does he love everybody or does he hate some?
Speaker 2:he loves everybody then what?
Speaker 1:how do you explain verse five?
Speaker 2:again, you have to reconcile verse five with john 3, 16 I just did that no, I told you, that does not mean, like I said, if we were evil doers, then we were hated by God.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me ask you.
Speaker 2:It says all evil doers. Is this making an exception?
Speaker 1:of any evil doers. Just hold on for a second. So now we go back to the nature of God. Does God change or does he not change?
Speaker 2:He doesn't change.
Speaker 1:So then you're saying that there was a time where he hated all evildoers and then later loved them. What I'm saying?
Speaker 2:is that in verse 5, it says you hate all evildoers, which was us in our sin, which was us in our sin. So if God hated us as evildoers, why would he send his son? Because he loved the world.
Speaker 1:Okay, Turn two chapters over to chapter seven. Psalm seven, because I know you can't change this, but I just want to hear what you say about it because this will be new to me. So, Psalm seven, verse 11, read that one.
Speaker 2:Tell me what you think that means. God is a righteous judge and a God who feels indignation every day. So in here it says that God judges the righteous and he's angry with the wicked every day. No, it doesn't say God judges the righteous.
Speaker 1:It says God is a righteous judge.
Speaker 2:And what's the last?
Speaker 5:part say that he's angry with the wicked every day.
Speaker 2:Who feels indignation every day? Okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So how do you interpret that? So he deals with indignation righteously, okay, okay, okay. So turn over to Psalm chapter 11.
Speaker 2:11.
Speaker 1:Verse 5.
Speaker 2:Verse 5. The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
Speaker 1:How do you interpret?
Speaker 2:that yeah, but his soul hates the wicked. So if we were wicked?
Speaker 7:in God's eyes and it is an actual.
Speaker 5:Brother brother.
Speaker 2:So what is the definition of hate?
Speaker 1:here. I'm asking you, I'm asking you to tell me See, here's the thing, brother, listen, brother, listen. You can't just gloss over these things and then and then come up with some manufactured idea. I'm asking you, I'm not how do you explain?
Speaker 2:so how do you explain, brother, is this the same? Superbly, hold on for a second. I'm trying to answer.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to answer you're not answering, so you're not answering so you're showing me a verse here that says that God hates the wicked. Again, you're showing me a verse that says God hates the wicked. And Jesus said if you don't hate your mother and father and love me, you are not in me. Ok, something to that effect. So that is strong language. Does Jesus really want us to hate our mother and father and our brother and sister?
Speaker 1:He told us. He he told us to love all people, regardless of what we know about them.
Speaker 2:No. Jesus said if you do not hate your mother or father, where is it at? Let me know.
Speaker 1:I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying, so you're not more than you love him, sir.
Speaker 6:That's what that is Okay.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 6:When we love anything more than God, our creator, that means that is an idol, that is a God to us. He is a jealous God.
Speaker 2:Exactly so, but Christ, he's not telling us to hate our mothers and fathers. He's just saying we love them more than my point is.
Speaker 6:Hold on.
Speaker 3:My point is Brother.
Speaker 1:I get your point.
Speaker 2:Jesus used that strong language of the word hate. So now we are going in Psalms. There were three examples in Psalms where it says God hates the wicked. So now you have to reconcile your definition of that word hate used here and reconcile it with John 3, 16, when it says God so loved the world that whosoever believes on him shall not perish.
Speaker 1:Now let me ask you a question.
Speaker 2:You have God here in Psalms, these three examples of Psalms saying that God hates the wicked, which we were.
Speaker 1:Hold on Okay, Okay great, okay, great.
Speaker 2:So God hated us.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, okay, stop. So God changed. God hated us. No, what I'm saying? No, you're saying that, god, you're acknowledging that God did hate at one point, right.
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying that your definition of the word hate in these three examples of Psalms is the same. What I'm asking you is what is your definition of it? The same example that I'm giving.
Speaker 1:When Christ said you should hate your mother and father, I'm trying to explain it.
Speaker 2:You're not explaining it, I'm trying to explain it.
Speaker 1:Okay, look.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to it, you're not explaining.
Speaker 1:to explain it, okay, look. Okay. Hold on for a second. Hold on for a second.
Speaker 2:Let me, let me ask you how you quote. Let me. Let me ask you something I can see. I can see where you're coming from. What you are basically saying is that God created mankind in his image and he created in his image some people that he wants to spend eternity with and some people he damned to hell forever, and that is not a loving god.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry sir, but that is not the gospel, and that is exactly what you're saying, because you are saying that god has hate in his heart against his own creation did.
Speaker 1:Do we not read these verses that is not what this verse is saying. No, you wanted to say, brother, listen.
Speaker 2:It is using harsh language to show how God hates sin.
Speaker 1:Listen, let me tell you something, brother. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 2:But you are trying to make it where God hates his creation. You know what Some of his creation that he made in his image he destined from hell at the start he did. That is not a loving God. No, sir, I am sorry, that is completely wrong. That is not the gospel. That is not a loving God.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong on that. No, not you're wrong, completely. No, not you're wrong. No, I am not wrong, because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him. And that's why we preach the gospel, because if he destined people for hell, then there is no reason to preach it whatsoever, because it is all up to God, and that is not why he gave us the commission to spread the gospel and make disciples. Sir, I am sorry, but that is wrong. You cannot sit here and tell me that a loving God produced people destined to spend eternity away from him. I sure can. That is not the gospel. No, sir, I am sorry. I am sorry. No, no, no, that's fine. That's what the gospel? No, sir, I am sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, no, no, no, that's fine, that's what you feel Now, this is what we deal with People's emotions, not the truth. Here's the thing, everybody. This is what we need to understand, not the truth. Here's the thing, everybody. This is what we need to understand.
Speaker 1:When you read here, for instance, in Proverbs 16, the Lord has made all things for himself, yes, even the wicked, for the day of evil. I could go throughout the scriptures with this whole thing, with this whole thing. And yet, when it comes to God talking you know Christ we see him talking about his hatred of the wicked and the condemnation of the wicked, more than we see him talking about love or more than we see him talking about heaven. Am I not saying that he doesn't love his people? He loves his people, but he loves his people. When we were in Galatians, we were reading Abraham Even, as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye. Therefore, paul says that they which are of faith the same are the children of God. Faith is something that is given by God and it is obvious that he did not give it to everyone, otherwise everyone would be saved. Not give it to everyone, Otherwise everyone would be saved. I know how harsh this may sound to the modern mind, but this is what is the problem with modern Christianity they don't see God doing what it is he wants to do and chooses to do with his creation, and this is hard for a lot of people to swallow, just like this guy was saying.
Speaker 1:We were talking about this earlier. There are people who believe that in order for God to be their God, he needs to behave or act in a certain way. For him to God, he does whatever he wants with his creation. We do not deserve life, as this person would presuppose. What we deserve is condemnation.
Speaker 1:We were born dead in sin and trespasses, and if we are dead, that means that the only way that we can live is to be raised from that state of deadness, and the only one who can do that is the Lord. He's the only one who can do that, and since he's under no obligation to do that, that means that whoever he raises, he does so of his own will, his own will. And those who are not raised from the dead, who have come to the newness of life, who have not received the Holy Spirit. The reason why they don't is because God chose, for whatever reason, no matter whose feelings it hurts, he was under no obligation to do it and what he does or does not do it is based on his good pleasure alone. Brother Greg, go ahead.
Speaker 3:It just in my lip from biting it for so long. So, you know, maybe you know I would have asked him. So, did God know before he created anything, who you, you know, who would and who would not end up in hell? And unless he's, unless he's, you know, so got some weird open theism going. He'd have to say, well, yeah, he knew, okay, and he created them anyway. Right, knowing that, so even you know he, even in his own like theological system, he still has to answer the same question right, he still believes that god created people that he knows are going to end up in hell well, see.
Speaker 1:You see, that would make it so. If you use, what you're saying is 100% correct, if you follow his logic, which is like most of the broader Christianity today, they will admit that God knows everything, that he sees everything before it happens. Like you're saying, greg, they see everything before it happens. God sees everything before it happens. Like you're saying, greg, they see everything before it happens. God sees everything before it happens. So if God knew that he was going to create you and if he knew that you were going to reject him, and if he knew that your rejection was going to warrant him to destroy you, why would he create you? Why would he do that? That would make him worse than what he's suggesting I'm making God look like. But why would God create someone that he foresees that he knows is going to be destroyed, that he has to destroy?
Speaker 3:I don't know, maybe a bookkeeping error Could be. I'm just joking.
Speaker 1:No, but it's true. But see these people, they're so overcome with emotion that they don't take the, they don't understand the full implications of what they, of what they're saying, and so and so the problem is we start getting people. You know, like it's easy, like you could tell the guy was obviously breaking and it's like I don't know what he's going through.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe they just don't. They don't think it through, even in terms of their own position. You know they don't see that they have to. You know the same objection applies to them, like you said, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if God knows all, sees all, and he knows that you're going to reject him to the day you die and he is going to have to put you to hell. If your basis of your basis for how you understand his love is what you say it is, then why would he create that person in the first place? He created Judas for a specific reason Jesus acknowledged. This is why he was. That's why he was born to do just what he did. Same thing with Pharaoh and everybody else. We were everybody, that was everybody who was wicked. They were created by God to perform the very function that they perform on this earth.
Speaker 5:And that's what it talks about in Romans 9. It says on good or bad deeds, it's on his purpose, not ours. It's not of him that willeth, nor him that runneth, but god that shows mercy. So it's not based on man's will, not based on man's effort, it's purely based on god's sovereignty. So, and that's what it says in second timothy one nine, it says who have saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus. When? When did this happen, lord? Before the world began? Election is tied to God's purpose, not our performance, because if that was the way that it was, then that would mean he's unfair.
Speaker 1:So if that Hold way, that it was, then that would mean he's unfair. So if that Hold on a second, meg, I want to get Banana Pancakes to say it, and she's leaving. So I want to get her to say it and I'll come back to you. Banana Pancakes, go ahead and say what you're going to say before you leave.
Speaker 7:I was just headed out and I didn't want you to think that I disagree with the Bible with that abrupt exit, but I'm just going to go ahead and disconnect, and it's just such a hard pill to swallow for some people. Um, I know me specifically, like I tell everybody who's willing to listen about the gospel, and but I know that, um, not not everyone is saved and not everyone will, Cause it's like the John 3, 16 says, for God so loved the world that he gave his son for I don't remember, sorry, but it's like for those that will believe. And so he doesn't make mistakes and nothing surprises him and there's no timer on the microwave that's going to ring and say, oh well, time's up. No, so he's perfect. And it's a hard pill to swallow and I definitely heard the emotion. But, um, and then, and that doesn't make God any less perfect, it doesn't make him not holy, not good and not merciful. Hate is holy.
Speaker 1:When it comes, when it comes from him, it is from him.
Speaker 7:Yeah, all right, good night y'all.
Speaker 1:Good night. Go ahead, meg. Finish what you're saying, then I'm going to go to God's word after that.
Speaker 5:Okay so, but then if we we have to be, this is why sorry, this is why it's called being mature in the faith. When one is mature in the faith, then we understand that the emotion, in what which way of things are being said, it is dealt with from a state of maturity. Because in listen to what John 15, 16 says. It says you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit. He directly says here Jesus, I chose you Right. So even the apostles, they never took the first step. The apostles, when Christ was choosing them, they never took the first step. It was Christ that always took the first step. It says in Acts 13, 48, as many as were ordained to eternal life believe. Their belief was the result of being chosen, not the cause. It reverses the idea that God chose me because I believe. So here in this scripture we see that the idea is completely reversed.
Speaker 1:It's really a tough thing to do, because when you hear a person, when I hear a person like that gentleman, superbly, when I hear someone like that gentleman, uh, superbly, when I hear something like that, you know I'm I'm hearing that there's something else that's bothering him and he doesn't want this to be true, and whether it's personal with him personally or whether it's somebody that he loves. That's what I feel like now. I don't, I could be wrong, I don't, I don't pretend to know the man's heart of what's going on in his life, but when you, when you have that kind of emotion and having this kind of conversation generally, there's something behind it that needs to be understood, and I certainly don't know that. What that is, and? But what I cannot do and what I will not do is is not deal with the word of God up front. I mean, you have to, but this is what is lacking in this, in this world today. This is what is lacking in this world today God's word, go ahead, you and then Angie.
Speaker 1:He was sitting there saying that God does not hate people, that he loves everybody. I'm sitting there and I was saying it in the comments and I guess you skipped it, but I was screaming out Proverbs 8, 17. It says I love those who love me and those who seek me diligently. Fine, you're right. He hates the wicked. He's always hated his wicked, and you said from the beginning when you first started he doesn't change, he's always going to hate.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just, you know, it's what it is Sister Angie go ahead it's just, you know, it's what it is.
Speaker 4:Sister Angie, go ahead Before Meg and something on what she was speaking of. Because whenever the blind man that Jesus had healed, that had sat at the steps of the temple for 40 years, the disciples asked him was it because of his sin, his mother's sin, that he was blind? Was it because of his father's sin? And Jesus said no, it was because for this moment, right here, so Jesus can show the glory of him, healing him in front of everybody. He was only blind by Jesus, for the glory of God, Jesus for the glory of God.
Speaker 4:So that's another example of what just not in the evil part or the hated part is God uses whoever he chooses. So it had nothing to do with the sin of his mother, the sin of his father or the sin of the man. He had everything to do. He was blind for a purpose. Just like you said, Pastor, just a few minutes ago, God used Judas for a purpose. Just like you said, Pastor, just a few minutes ago, God used Judas for a purpose. So he uses those things to show his point because he created by him, for him, whether it's good or evil.
Speaker 4:So I mean I don't think some people get that and that's where that faulty part comes and it starts getting emotional. And even God has emotions. He's just not governed by them, you know, and so you know he is, but he's spirit. So we should not be governed by our emotions, we should be led by the spirit. So that's hard, and we're seeing that a lot in these nowadays, where it's very emotional because it has to be an experience, instead of having to trust in faithfulness and the belief of God.
Speaker 6:Right.
Speaker 1:Candy girl. Candy girl, you want to say something.
Speaker 6:It, it. It boils back to like the glory, the glory. Everything is to glorify God.
Speaker 1:No matter I'll piggyback, because he kind of opened up that window for what I was coming in to say which was it's hard to hear you, sister, it's hard to hear you why things are created. What about now? Can you remember?
Speaker 6:now. Yeah, you better, that's better, okay, but he creates everything, just like he creates everything Just like when we're called in our faith and our hope. Hope comes from our faith in what he's doing for us. He gave us his son, his son's, reconciled us for the righteousness of him to not perish the wrath of him. And so, even through those who don't choose him because they can't die in the flesh, they don't want to give up the world for the spirit, those who live in the spirit are blessed through and being able to glorify God by being able to glorify God, by being able to live in the spirit against the world and the people who are created that are not of God.
Speaker 6:That's why even the evil spirits have to bow down to him. So there's nothing that, without his permission, can be done or will be done. It's like when Jesus came. It is not my will, it is my father's will that I'm here to do. So it's not me who speaks, it is him who speaks through me. It is a hard pill to swallow that God could take anything of his creation, but in the beginning he created everything good, even though the fall of man is why we have these issues now. This is why we have these issues now. But still, god loved us enough to not send every one of us to burn in hell. That he give us from Jesus, to be reconciled to him, to live with him, because he created before the fall of man.
Speaker 1:They walked in the garden with him until See, you know, the thing about it is, it's a man-centered gospel that has brought us to the point that we're at right now. That causes us to have the kind of conversations and exchanges that I was having with this gentleman, because here's the thing, here's a perfect example. You had the whole host, the whole angelic host that God created. A third of them excuse me, a third of them fell. Satan fell. These angels were higher than us. They were the highest of God's creation, the angelic host. They fell, we too fell, but for some reason, god chose to redeem some of us, but he also chose to let go a third of the angels, the angelic host.
Speaker 1:Now, there are some people like my father and I used to always have a discussion, and he was of the opinion that he would never swear by it. He was dogmatic on it. But he swears that the one-third of the angels that were dismissed from heaven were to be replaced by men. Some merit to that, however. I wouldn't be dogmatic on that at all. But here's my point.
Speaker 1:Is God? When man fell, he provided redemption for man. Christ, the son of God, became man in order to redeem man. But when the angels fell, when Satan and a third of the angelic host fell, god provided no redemption for them. None, he made their reprobation hard, fast, and did not provide any redemption. Now, if I follow the logic that the brother that was talking here before was saying, and where I would have gotten to, had we been able to have a conversation that was not injected with emotion, we would have got to this point. Then how do you explain no redemption at all for the demons that fell? I mean for the angels that fell? They were higher than us, they have a higher order than us, they had intelligence far elevated than us and they had abilities that far exceed ours, and they were created by God as intelligent beings.
Speaker 6:What they. What they had, though, is what we received through the redemption, so they already been what we received by repenting and being redeemed, so what more could they ask for? They had it. They chose what they wanted, something better than what they had. What God did was not good enough for them, so there you go. So where can he forgive them for that?