The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Abraham Believed God (Part 5 of 5)
What happens when our comfortable view of God collides with biblical truth? During this raw, unfiltered conversation, emotions ran high as we explored the profound difference between how God dealt with fallen angels versus fallen humanity.
When angels rebelled, God provided no redemption path whatsoever. Yet for humans, Christ took on flesh and offered salvation. This stark contrast forces us to confront difficult questions about divine sovereignty, love, and justice that many modern Christians prefer to avoid.
The discussion sparked a powerful moment when a participant became visibly emotional upon hearing these challenging theological truths. This reaction perfectly illustrates how deeply our preconceptions about God's nature affect us — we often create a deity that matches our preferences rather than embracing the God revealed in Scripture.
We dive deep into passages from Hebrews, John, and the Psalms to understand how God's throne is established on righteousness and justice. Far from the "feel-good" deity promoted in many churches today, Scripture presents a God of both compassion and consuming fire. As one participant noted, "His ways are not our ways, His thoughts higher than our thoughts."
The conversation also examines how modern Christianity has transformed worship into entertainment — with theatrical altar calls, staged exorcisms, and performances that trivialize the gospel. These trends reveal how far we've strayed from reverently approaching the sovereign Lord on His terms.
Whether you're wrestling with difficult theological questions or seeking a deeper understanding of God's true nature, this episode will challenge your thinking and inspire you to embrace the full counsel of Scripture. Listen now, and join us in praying that God gives clarity to all who sincerely seek Him.
They were forgiven, because then that would make God. What would that make God? There's scripture on it. I read it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, the issue is. The issue is simply this Regardless of you know what happened, we do know this they fell and there was no redemption provided for them, none at all, none, you know. But man thinks that, just because he's man, that God has somehow an obligation with man that he didn't have with the angelic host. And so these are questions that you've got to ask yourself. And Paul, I mean the writer of Hebrews tells us this in the first two or three chapters of Hebrews that Jesus Christ, he didn't take on the form of an angel. He provided no redemption for them, none. Their state is fixed, forever. Like Brother Joe Kress says, reserved and changed. There is no way out for them. And God was under no obligation. And God is showing us this in this whole scenario. If he was under the obligations, if he was obligated to save any man, then he certainly would have been under the same obligation to save, to to save lost angels that fell. They were higher than us and elevated for us, elevated above us in every way. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm sorry you caught me munching on some peanuts here. I'm sorry, Jonathan. The angels when they fell, they sinned in eternity. They were eternal beings like God when they sinned Eternity is a perfect place where there is no sin. They were cast down. There is no opportunity for salvation or forgiveness to occur in eternity, which is why God created time for us to be able to receive grace and mercy and forgiveness. There is the difference between the angels and us. We have time to repent. We have time to come to grace and mercy and forgiveness. The angels didn't when they sinned. They sinned in a place where forgiveness wasn't possible, because it's not necessary. Okay, and there we are. There's the difference why the angels didn't have. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.
Speaker 4:Which is the?
Speaker 2:same situation with men amen amen same situation with man and see, but see, but see. The problem is like as was expressed by that gentleman modern day christianity believes that god is has to act a certain way by their standards in order to be, in order for him to be god. In other words, like he says, these people, these people, they'll tell you I don't want no part of a God that does what the Bible says he does. Now, when you go and you read the Old Testament, you're going to read some of the things that God did. If these things were happening today, I can't imagine what Christians would be saying about it. But see, the problem is these people don't understand who God is.
Speaker 2:That brother did not understand the nature of God. He is a God of wrath. If you read Psalm 50, you see he is a God of vengeance and wrath. He told his believers don't worry, vengeance is mine. Vengeance upon who? Who is he talking about Right? Who is he talking about exacting his vengeance on? Why does he refer to himself as a consuming fire? What does he mean? See, we have all these. When Jesus says don't fear him who can destroy the body and do no more, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Who is he talking about? But see, we want this good, we want this feel good, god, that that that people want. And you got preachers that you can't tell if it's a preacher or if he's a motivational speaker, you know, but we need to start preaching the God of the Bible.
Speaker 6:You know, brother Jonathan, I have a daughter that I mean it's very. I pray for her all the time. But she tells me this and I know you've heard this and everybody else that's listening has heard this I love the God, the God of the Old Testament, I don't the God, the God of the Old Testament I don't like, but the God of the New Testament I like, I'm like, don't you understand? It's the same God, it's the same God you're facing. They don't understand that and it just mind-boggles me, I guess, because I, you know, I love the nature of God and the way in his sovereignty and how he's just in full control. Now, satan is his dog on a leash. You know all that. Nothing happens without God knowing and having his being under his will. So it's like it boggles me how they they separate it to be different. I don't like the God of the Old Testament. Well, it's the same God.
Speaker 6:He doesn't change Like you were saying the same God he doesn't change, like you were saying the same God, yeah, so it. Just that, just it doesn't make sense to me, that's all I'm saying. But when you hear those things you know it's like, I guess, because they don't see it physically, because they're still, they're not spiritually born again, Right Go ahead Greg.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm here. I don't think it's the case with the angels that God was like. Well, guys, you know, wish there was something I could do for you, but my hands are tied, you know it's out of my hands, I don't think that's the case?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's. You know, if God wanted to provide redemption for them, he could have. So why didn't he? He didn't want to, you know, for whatever reason you know, but I don't think it's the case that it was just impossible like that. God's hands were tied. There was nothing he could do, right.
Speaker 2:It's just he chose not to yeah, I agree with that, and, and, and the writer of hebrews makes that case, because he shows us how, how we should be appreciative of having access to so great a salvation. A salvation where the son of man, the son of god, the second person of the triune, god, took on human flesh and did not take on the nature of angels. He could have, but he didn't, because angels were created just like we were, you know. So it's a tricky situation, but, but when you read these things, you, you have to understand, especially when you start saying how it is, or making, or making these wholesale mandates of what you think constitutes god's love. He kept going back to love, if you, if you love, if you don't love your mom or your or your, um, if you don't love your mother, if you don't hate your, you know, if you love me more than you hate your.
Speaker 7:Whatever he was talking about, I forget the verse, but anyway, the point is father, more than me than you aren't worthy of the kingdom yeah so and the? Thing?
Speaker 2:is. He's putting that in the very, in that very example. He's putting man on the same level as God and you can't do that. It's very different and we know, we know that. You know there are many words in the scriptures that we look at and we and when you understand their context. I know a lot of people say this, but you have to do that. It's like you have to understand what is being said and what is being understood. It's like the John 3, 16.
Speaker 2:It's funny how the gospel we are never told anywhere from an evangelistic standpoint. We are never told anywhere to go tell people that God loves them. There is no, we see no example of that anywhere. Christ made a statement to the Jews, his people, who believed that they were God's only people and that the rest of the world were dogs and heathens and pagans and weren't worthy of union with God and could not call themselves sons of Abraham, sons of Jacob and sons of Isaac. So now the son of God comes along and he says you guys got it all wrong, because God loves the world, not without exception, but without distinction. In other words, he loves people from all countries and tongues and nationalities, and that was new to the ear and the mind of the Jewish mindset. That was new to them, and so when he says that, that's a revelation.
Speaker 7:She had her hand up. She's been waiting for a long time. Who's that? Miss Sabrina, right here. Modern Sabrina.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead, Sabrina.
Speaker 4:Hello here modern Sabrina. Okay, go ahead. Sabrina, go ahead. Sorry, hello, it's important. Third, and Satan was due to Satan's arrogance against God and man Because he also, satan also wondered why God loved us the way he did. He couldn't fathom that knowledge and he wanted to be like God. Also, the angels, just like Don had said earlier, they were already internal because they were with God. We were sent to earth, you know, we came through a human body where the angels were made like Adam and Eve, but through Adam and Eve, man was created. And saying that, okay, what was the question about? At first, I lost my thought. Oh, the guy having the emotions.
Speaker 2:I remember in the Bible. I was trying to find it while I was waiting where Jesus said they departed from us because they were not of us.
Speaker 4:John 6, john 2, 19 of us, John 2.19. Yeah, john 2.19. But each Bible states and that's what I wrote first, john 2.19, that some of us not saying that we were not made by God. However, some have gone astray a long time in their minds. And it starts from birth, because God says teach a child the way that it should go, that they should never depart from it. And if we are not teaching our children, they don't know what to expect, right, they don't know the order of God, they don't know the heart of God. God is not like man. He's creator of all things, but he did not create fear. So if he did not create fear, who created fear? If he did not create fear, who created fear? Because fear is upon this earth. Okay, and in saying that, I was trying to find another scripture where, well, it was one time that Jesus said he gave the parable where I, man that owned the farm, planted the wheat. However, the enemy came and planted chaff.
Speaker 2:So tares right.
Speaker 4:Tares. Thank you amongst the wheat, Thank you Amongst the leaves. So we are to know that and this is not for people to feel like God don't want you. I'm not saying that God did not create you because you don't have an understanding. You are to. You are to seek God's faith. Everyone should seek God's faith. Everyone. Just see God's face right and he can his face. Brother, you are, you are of him or not, right, his arms is open to you and that's what people don't know. I believe that because he didn't create fear, that left an opening in mind. But that's me.
Speaker 4:I'm not saying it's in the Bible, but some of them are the Antichrist, I mean the Antichrist period, and I don't think the Antichrist is just a spirit alone. I believe that the Antichrist is actually Satan's children and they love the sin, they love the wickedness. That's why they cannot hear the Word. They can't. You can see, even if they were to read the Bible, some of them cannot even. They can't sense the Holy Spirit, they can't even articulate the word the way it should be, because their ears are closed, because they're Satan's children.
Speaker 2:And that's that's. That's a really big point because again in the text we were starting with you know, paul, he's dealing with that and we didn't. We didn't get into it. I won't have time to get into it tonight, but I was going to go over several verses in the book of John, particularly in John 8, where Christ is constantly telling like he tells.
Speaker 2:He actually tells the Pharisees in John 8, 44. You could consider yourself Abraham's seed, but if you were Abraham's seed you would believe me. You wouldn't have a problem with me. If you were, if Abraham were your father, and Jesus tells them who their father actually is, he says you are of your father, the devil. And keep in mind these people. They were religious leaders.
Speaker 2:We read it and look back and we talk about Pharisees and the Sadducees and the scribes and the elders, but back then they were no different. I mean, it could be the pastor of your church, it could be your next door neighbor, people who say they are believers. But when people like like I'm gonna tell you something. There has never been a time in my Christian life, there has never been a time in my Christian life where I believe something so strongly in the word of God that when somebody says something contrary to what my understanding was, that it caused me to break down. I've never had that happen in my life. Because that's just like sort of like what, sabrina, like what you're saying, there's something there to be feared and there's something that is wrong, because to me it seems like when, the, when, the, when, the, when, the true servant of god, who, in whom the holy spirit resides, when they hear god's truth, they delight in it. It may confuse them and they may be going. You know, I need to, I need to look at this, but the reaction that I got tonight with this gentleman is like I haven't seen that reaction in a long time personally, in a long time, but I get it because I've heard it many, many, many, many times and people get upset. They get upset, but when you look at the plain words of Scripture, you know and I know that everybody who may be contrary to me, they will say the same thing.
Speaker 2:I'm just using Scripture, like. I'm sure he thought he was just dealing with Scripture, but there's just something about the Word of God where, when it comes, when it hit the ears of those blood-bought believers, the ones that Christ died for, because, remember, when he died, he died for the ones that had gone before him and he died for the ones that came after you and I, and there's more to come. But when these people, when his elect people, when they hear his word, it does something to them and that's why I think Christ talked about, compared us to the sheep who hear the shepherd's voice, collect people. When they hear his word, it does something to them and that's why I think Christ talked about compared to the sheep who hear the shepherd's voice. And it says that when they hear it, they follow, they know it, they recognize it. They're not like the goats who want to do their own thing, go their own way. That's what goats do. They're explorers. They will leave and go, they want to explore, they are willful. But God's sheep, christ's sheep, sheep are the dumbest animals on the planet Earth, but all they know how to do is obey their shepherd and they know his voice and they follow him and his voice doesn't frighten them. It doesn't frighten them.
Speaker 2:That gentleman was talking about the love of god we talked earlier about. The bible, in hebrews, tells us the lord chastens who does he chasten? Those whom he loves. Chastening of the Lord is for correction. The Lord shall not the Lord who teaches us to correct our own children, shall he not correct his own effectually, in every instance.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:He does not fail at being a father to his children. He chastens those whom he loves. Can you say that anyone who ends up or turned into hell was chastened by God? You can't, because if he chastened them, they would have been corrected and they would have turned. These are just realities that we have to deal with when we read the word of God and we can't just dismiss it because we don't like how it makes us feel. These are not just Go ahead, sister. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:If anybody's a parent, think about what happens with you and your children in this world and then take the almighty God, our Father, and look at what these kids, when they don't listen to us and disobey us and refuse and rebel and do their parents like those who do God that way that's really what got me in my walk was doing him as my child did to me, or I see kids do to their parents, and we do that to our father, who loves us and gives us that chance to our father, who loves us and gives us that chance.
Speaker 2:He, he loves his people and he will correct them and he will bring them home. And it says that he will. It says that he will work all of this, all of his providence, to bring us to, to, to him, and he will use every weapon in his arsenal to make sure that we are preserved in the faith. And he says and there was not one that he will lose Not one will be snatched out of his father's hand. Not one will be snatched out of his hand, not one. Now think about that for a second.
Speaker 2:Christ is the one who says this Jesus, the Lord, jesus Christ, he's the one that said this None shall snatch him out of my father's hand. So then, if the love of God is this universal, this sloppy universal love that people talk about, then how is it that anybody can be in hell? How do they get out of God's hands? How, I mean? Unless I'm missing something, I want to. I'm curious. How does that happen? Christ would have to be if the greater part of mankind perishes, and he's the one that laid the model out. He says that broad is the way that leads to destruction, narrow is the way that leads to salvation. Every indication that he's ever given about those who were saved, it was a fraction of the whole. It was a fraction of mankind every time, which means that if his intention was to save every single man, because he loves every single man and because the majority of mankind will perish, that would make christ a massive failure. Or you believe and understand that he saved 100 of every single soul, of all the souls that he intended to come here to save has nothing to do about the sufficiency of his sacrifice. It has to do with the efficiency of his sacrifice by his own design. I came here to save my people, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There's no way around this. There's no way around it.
Speaker 2:I know it doesn't appeal to the carnal man and I know that there are many Christians who don the moniker Christian who are not. Like Sister Sabrina was saying, there are some who just will go out from us because they were never of us. But while they were with us, they pretended to be like us and everyone embraced them as if they were one of us. But while they were with us, they pretended to be like us and everyone embraced them as if they were one of us, but they weren't. And then the Lord tells us they went out from us. Why? So that we would know, so that we would know those who remain that they were never of us. It's a dark, scary story If you don't know christ and if you have no interest in his salvation. But to those who know and love him and those whom he put his spirit in, they know better, meg you. And then I'll have to wrap it up.
Speaker 7:Go ahead, meg so I think I'm just sitting here thinking, but I think that there has to be an understanding of what justice is God's justice? Not the justice of the court systems or the justice you know what I mean. So there's a verse in Psalm, psalm 1825. It says no, I'm sorry, it's Psalm 89, 14. It says justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne. Mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Okay, that is really really deep. Okay, that is really really deep. So righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne. So God's rule is not arbitrary right.
Speaker 7:His kingdom is built on absolute righteousness and it's built on perfect justice. Yes, what does that? What does that look like to the believer who is finite right, trying to understand perfect justice and absolute righteousness? Well, god never acts unjustly. He always does what is morally perfect and legally right. In psalms 11, 7 it says for the lord is righteous, he loveth righteousness. Deuteronomy 32 4 said a god of truth and without inequity, just and right. Is he so when? So, when God judges, forgives, delays wrath or brings wrath right, it's always from his throne. That is established in holy justice.
Speaker 7:So we can't be in this space, guys, of thinking carnally, if you will, because the carnal mind is enmity to God, like we can't even. There's some things that we just have to go through and mature in to understand fully, and it's reading the word of the Lord. This is how you get it, it's being a student of the word and it the, the scripture, will open up. It's just we. We have to understand that. You know his ways are not our ways are. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Glory to God. And we just have to continue to mature in the faith and seek his face and come together and you know, talk scripture and reason, the scripture together.
Speaker 2:Well, this is what we're doing and this is what we always have to continue to do, because we know everybody who is a Christian understands that as the days go by, the, as time goes by, the ability for man to endure sound doctrine diminishes. That's just what it does.
Speaker 7:Somebody in the comments said hush red woman. That sounds like something Greg would say. Oh, that made me laugh.
Speaker 2:But we now true faith and what's required to be a servant of the Lord you know true religion that we are supposed to have from our understanding of the word of God now is being taken as a form of entertainment. It's all entertainment. People don't take it serious anymore. They don't because it's a joke. And we turn Christ into a joke, a clown show. We don't see the God of the Bible for who he really is, and so men have manufactured their own idea of God, chose to believe it and then believe that that's what they should be telling other people, and then believe that that's what they should be telling other people. And so it's just like. You know these I talk about this all the time One of my biggest grievances that has ever been introduced into the church the altar call.
Speaker 2:I hate it. The altar call is one of the most damning things, one of the most damning things that has been introduced into what is called the visible church since the Catholic baptism. Altar calls are destroying more souls than people understand. You have all these churches where they, you know, they say some sermon they think was great and a bunch of people run to the front and get on their knees and turn down the lights, they play the music and they preach all softly and tell people to come up to the front. And there you are. There you are. Come up here. Would you slip your head up in the air? Come up here to the front. All this stuff, this whole altar call thing destroying souls Nothing like this is in the Bible, nothing, nothing like this is in the Bible.
Speaker 2:Nothing like this is in the Bible. If anything, you see Christ pushing people away in order to compel them, not these guys. Altar calls, altar calls. People need to have that show. People always seem that these ministers and pastors they're always casting out demons and stuff. There always happens to be a camera there and it's always on Sunday morning. Just so happens to be a camera that somebody can take a picture or video of this and post it on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, or video of this and post it on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. Some clown the other day put some video where some pastor in Africa claimed that he rose somebody from the dead. They filmed the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Stupidest thing I've ever seen, people are turning the gospel into a clown show. It is not something to be played with. We're talking about the thrice holy God above, who created us all, who's coming with wrath and vengeance and bringing his salvation for his chosen, elect people. That's who he's coming for, a people ready, dressed and ready to go. We are looking forward to that. But we cannot allow our faith to be turned into a sideshow, chasing after men, following them, ignoring the truth of the scripture, ignoring the truth of the scripture and so. But this is what I'm saying. It's a sideshow. My sister says some cast out devils. I say no, they don't, it's all a show Speaking in tongues, all a show, fake, demonic, not from God. All these people got all these things, but they want to get away from the simplicity of the scriptures, which is salvation by grace through faith. Don't need a sideshow. Don't need a sideshow, don't need a circus, don't need entertainment, but anyway this is a good one.
Speaker 2:This is a good one tonight.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:And I actually want to leave it on a sobering note, because I think what happens here tonight, especially with that gentleman in particular I'm hoping that everyone here will think about him and the discussion, the exchange we're trying to have, because it was enough to bring him to tears, and that's not the type of tears that the effective word of God is supposed to have. The tears that those of us in the Christian faith should elicit from other people are the tears of joy, when they recognize that they can be saved and not have to do anything to get it and to urge them to beg the Lord Jesus Christ to change their hearts and to show them the mercy and compassion that he showed each one of you and me, but you have Christian comedians, I mean they literally got Christian comedians, you got these Christian singers and pop stars.
Speaker 2:You can't tell the difference between them and you know the secular singers. You turn down the music. You can't tell who's, you can't tell which is what, which is who's, who feel it the same. They act the same. That's not coming out from among them, that is making merchandise of the church, merchandise of god grace, that's thieves in the temple.
Speaker 3:Jonathan Brother, you mentioned earlier tonight at the beginning of your talk about the death of Hulk Hogan this week. Jonathan, it just made me realize how much of church today has become kind of like professional wrestling. You look at it, man, it looks real, but it's not. It's scripted, it's staged, it's rehearsed. I mean we all love it for the emotion that's in it, but has anything really changed? When it's all over, no, the guys walk off together but you know, shake hands at the end of the thing and the whole thing is over.
Speaker 3:That's where a lot of to me, where a lot of the churches are right now Going through the motions as opposed to presenting Christ for who he really is and what he does and can do in our lives. And, jonathan, again I want to reiterate that I'm going to be done for the night. Eternity separated from God is nothing to gamble with. You've got to get it right, brother. You've got to do that. Good night, everybody. Love you all.
Speaker 2:Good night, brother Jeffrey, love you Also. I'm going to close it up too, because I went way longer than I intended to, but it was for good reasons. I wanted to tell you, everybody here, that I really appreciate you coming and really meditate on the conversation tonight and the experience with this one brother and, if you can remember, pray for that guy. Pray for the guy I don't know his real name, but he goes by superbly, but I could feel that something was going on with this gentleman. Probably it goes beyond what we really know and understand, but I definitely would appeal to each one of you to join me in appealing to God on his behalf. So, if you can remember when you get off, try to remember to do that. I certainly am going to do that. And so, like Brother says, pray that the Lord opens his eyes, because he was affected and I just don't know in what way, but I prayed that you know I'm going to, I'm actually going to pray tonight before I go to sleep that God gives him clarity and that's going to be my, my hope. And it's so funny because you know I reached out to him earlier today on another matter to do some possible, some business with him, and it just turned out that it turned out to be this at the end of the day tonight. But anyway, so that being said, just pray for him and I.
Speaker 2:You know I usually close out on a lighter note, but I want to leave this one the way it is. I wanted to marinate with people's, you know, in your mind and hearts about these kinds of things, because this is serious business that we're talking about here, you know. So I just want to say God bless you guys. Thank you for your kind attention and generous, generous time. I know you could be doing anything else, but you hang out with me quite often and I appreciate you for it, and I hope that we can continue to enrich each other on a daily basis. So may God bless you all and have a great, great night Till tomorrow.