The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Ransom & Redeemed (Part 2 of 5)
Spiritual freedom isn't what many modern Christians think it is. This challenging episode dives deep into the biblical concept of ransom and redemption, examining how our misconceptions about free will affect our understanding of salvation.
We begin by exploring the startling reality that every will is biased—even God's will is bound by His holy nature. When believers claim absolute freedom to choose God by their own unbiased will, they're ironically claiming something Scripture doesn't attribute even to our Creator. As one speaker powerfully notes, "We are made in the image of God, not made into God."
The raising of Lazarus serves as our theological centerpiece, illustrating the true nature of spiritual resurrection. When Jesus commanded a dead man to live, He didn't first consult Lazarus about his preferences. This mirrors our spiritual condition before salvation—not spiritually sick or struggling, but completely dead and incapable of initiating our own redemption.
We examine biblical examples of redemption from the Old Testament, showing how God established patterns of ransom payments for land, animals, and people—all pointing toward Christ's ultimate redemptive work. The conversation reaches its crescendo with a provocative challenge: if you believe you're spiritually "free" and simply "choose" God of your own accord, then Christ's ransom wasn't necessary for you.
The episode concludes with a beautiful revelation about God's eternal plan for Gentile inclusion, revealed through Abraham's justification before circumcision. This powerful truth reminds us that God's sovereign plan of redemption has always been more expansive and gracious than we could imagine.
Join us for this theologically rich exploration that will challenge your thinking and deepen your appreciation for the God who purchases what is rightfully His.
incapable of being reconciled to God, apart from a work on our behalf by God himself, who gives us a new heart, exchanging the heart of stone for a heart of flesh. And it is the new heart of flesh that we receive, that gives us the ability to choose what is pleasing to God. So the issue is not that you can choose this or you can choose that, because people conflate the will with choice, and it is the will that makes the choice, that it makes its object. But the will is exerted based off of its own bias. Everyone's will is biased, and I'll tell you something else. I'll tell you someone else's will who is biased.
Speaker 1:God's will is biased.
Speaker 1:The Bible tells us clearly that the Lord, lord, god Almighty, he cannot sin, he cannot lie, he can't do any of these things.
Speaker 1:So even his will is bound by his nature, which is a nature that means he has all these attributes that cannot be undone and which means that his nature is locked in to moving, or moving in a certain way that is only holy and righteous. And so you have men giving themselves what even God himself does not have, and we're supposed to be made in the image of God, not made into God. So men is saying, men today are saying these Christians today running around saying I have the free will to do whatever I please, however I please, whenever I please, it's my choice. Whatever I please, however I please, whenever I please, is my choice, choices that are unbiased and that are absolutely indifferent, because when you talk about free will, you're talking about absolute indifference and unbiased when it comes to making any choice. In other words, there's nothing. Your choices are just random, but they're not. When Lazarus was dead I use this example all the time what was Jesus showing us with the raising of Lazarus? What was he?
Speaker 2:showing us Well, he was showing us. Number one, that he was obedient because he tarried for four days. Number one, that he was obedient because he tarried for four days, right showing that that after three, in jewish customs, you are strictly unalived. No, that's not a custom, that's science. Oh, that's science. After three days, you are unalive. So not only was he dead, he was dead dead okay, well, he was, he was dead.
Speaker 1:But. But the fourth day is when the second is when rigor mortis begins to set in, the body begins to stink.
Speaker 2:So then he showed him that it is only me who can call you by your name.
Speaker 1:Out of that and raise you but see, here's the thing you're right, because but see, what I'm saying is, when he went to Lazarus, he was already dead. Jesus was showing us that, spiritually, this is our condition, amen. So when Jesus Christ went to Lazarus and he spoke to him see, this is what people will say, this is what a lot of Christians will say and he spoke to him See, this is what people will say, this is what a lot of Christians will say they will say well, if Christ told me to do something, or if I didn't do it, this would happen or that would happen. If I do or if I don't, that implies that I have the freedom of will. Well, let's talk about Lazarus for a second.
Speaker 1:When Jesus went to Lazarus, who was dead, jesus spoke to him, but was Lazarus able to respond? No, why he was dead. Yet Jesus said Lazarus called him by name. He called a dead man by name and said come forth and guess what happened? He came forth. Guess what did not happen? Jesus didn't go to him and ask him if he wants to be alive.
Speaker 4:See, we have the luxury of hearing the story and knowing what happened, but at the same time, you have to also remember that Jesus also wept, he, he felt pain at the loss of lazarus and the loss of lazarus to his sisters that's not why.
Speaker 1:That's not why he wept, barry and martha. He wept because he wept because of their unbelief. He didn't weep because he was sorry that Lazarus died. Why would Christ worry or cry Over Lazarus being dead when he knew he had the power to raise him from the dead?
Speaker 4:Right, exactly no, I'm with you, but yet, at the same time, the loss.
Speaker 1:That was felt. No. But the reason why he wept is because they mary and martha and the other ones were they. They, they doubted the loss that was felt. No, they doubted what christ could do yeah right, and.
Speaker 4:And not only did they doubt, but I mean, who else has seen this happen ever? Come on. I watched my dad go into the ground. I felt that loss. Christ feels that loss with me.
Speaker 1:Christ brother, let me tell you something. This is what we need to understand. Christ does not feel any loss. The only loss he ever felt Was that separation between him and his father On that cross. That's the loss. That's the only loss he ever felt. Everything else he could remedy on his own Right and he knew it.
Speaker 4:But yet he wept and that's important to me. He feels we even in our failure. Brother brother.
Speaker 1:Brother, here's the thing, here's the thing, because you keep going back to. He wept because he felt that's not what happened and we have a responsibility as believers. To be biblically precise, he wept not because of the loss of Lazarus. He wept because of the disbelief on the part of Mary and Martha and the other people who walked with him and saw what he did. And yet they doubted that he had any, that he had anything to do, that he had anything he could do to remedy the situation of their dead brother.
Speaker 4:Do you think you wouldn't doubt I'm sure I would of their dead brother.
Speaker 1:Do you think you wouldn't doubt? I'm sure I would. So he weeps for your loss too. All right, Well, let's, let's. Let's, let me move on, because I can see this is not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 4:But let me move on. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying.
Speaker 1:That's all right. That's all right, it's so. It's okay, brother, I want you to stay here and hang out with us and let's talk about it some more. Brother Joshua, your turn Thoughts, ideas on what we're talking about so far.
Speaker 6:I believe it ultimately comes down to a poor understanding of God's sovereignty. I mean, throughout Scripture he lets us know that he is sovereign over the affairs of man. When he was talking to Moses in the burning bush, he said of man. When he was talking to Moses in the burning bush, he said is it not I that make men poor and rich and deaf and mute? He says if there's calamity in a city, is it not I that have done it? And I believe it was Amos. And I think, especially in America, the illusion of freedom gives people the idea that they are sovereign and therefore they have an inability to accept a sovereign God who is in control of every aspect of their life and their salvation. And they also want to, you know, regain some illusion of I have control over my life when man has a throne.
Speaker 1:in his heart. There's a throne. Every man has a throne, and there's only one of two individuals that can sit on that throne. Amen. It is either God or it is self.
Speaker 6:I remember what it was like being a dead person before salvation. I could not have. There was nothing I could have done to bring about the change that took place, to the best of my ability. But he did it. He didn't ask, he didn't you know, he didn't knock on the door, he kicked the door off the hinges and came in and made the change Right. And I believe it's like that with every everybody who comes to salvation, whether they realize it or not. There's nothing that they could have done to make the change that was made when he chose to save them.
Speaker 1:Right, so let me go to Thank you for that, Brother Josh. Yes, sir. Mighty Mitch, you're the last one. I saved you for last, intentionally.
Speaker 8:How you doing, Brother Jonathan.
Speaker 1:I'm doing all right, man. I miss you, man. Yes, sir.
Speaker 8:Yes, sir, I want to say this I was listening to Jabba, jabba, jabba. I was listening to Jabba and he said something, and he was correct on that when he said that nobody never seen that happen, right, so they wouldn't consider him being able to do something like that because, you remember, they said Lord he dead. I mean what you going to do I'm just layman term what you going to do about it, and I would look at it as because they didn't realize or understand the power he possessed. It's like if you've ever been talking to somebody about the gospel and just start crying, right, not because you feel bad for them, it's just that you know you telling the truth and they don't believe it.
Speaker 8:You know what I'm saying and you just, it's not a, it's not a bad cry. You know what I mean, you get what I'm saying. It's not a bad cry. You know what I mean. Uh, you get what I'm saying. It's not a bad cry, right, you know and I think it was taking that way of the lord because, like you said too, you know feelings. God don't, we don't deal in feelings like that. Now I will say this also about, uh, the reason why I I didn't get or feel any kind of way about Kanye, what he said about slavery, because I agree with him. And the reason I agreed with him because we're talking about in a physical sense, not the spiritual, because what you were explaining.
Speaker 8:What you were explaining on the spiritual side was correct, but on the physical side he was correct. But on the physical side he was correct and and when. And I'm gonna say this now I'm saying he was correct according to what I believe in the scripture. I don't know if he think that way, but I'm just.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm kind of making so no, so I, I think, I think that when, when you see where I'm going, I think that we might be on the same page. I think so, uh, because, because I I agree with that statement. I just want to, I just want to see if, I'm curious to see if, when I get to the conclusion that it's the same when you had, so I'll be curious to hear that I really will be, and I think.
Speaker 8:I think, personally, I think what you're saying about the spiritual side I mean, I, I, uh, and relaying it to uh, kanye West I think it's spot on and and the reason why I said I would agree with what he said I don't know if he thought about it that way is because we was talking about a particular people who actually disobeyed God and he caused them to go into bondage, right I is.
Speaker 1:First, let me, I'm gonna say something, because what you said and I'm glad you said it about what job I said because, uh, he's new here. This is my first time with job. You've been here, brother, so I thank you for being here. But, um, and when you know my personality, you won't be offended by anything I say, or do you just know? That's how I am an idiot, um, but what I'm saying is this you're're right because, like he, because even you asked me, jabba, you said what would you do? You think you would be able to, you think you would doubt? And I, and I asked you, answered you honestly, I think, yeah, I probably would too, but I, but I think that what Christ?
Speaker 1:I think that what, what made him weep about it, andep about it, and so, and I do think that there is an emotional side to him, because he was also, besides being 100% God, he was also 100% man. So he was subject to the same or the like passions as we are, according to what the scripture tells us. That being said, even in our lives today, we are admonished in scripture to leave things in the lord's hands and to trust him to deal with it. So I don't think that mary and martha were even considering that he was going to raise lazarus from. Let raise lazus from the dead, because up until this point there was no greater miracle that he had ever done than that, and the only thing that topped raising Lazarus from the dead in the scriptures was when Christ raised him. He raised himself up from the dead, so no one would have seen that.
Speaker 1:So, jabba, I agree with you in this and I want to make sure you understand that. I see that it's not like I have some kind of super spiritual personality where I would have been like, yes, he's going to raise. No, it's not like that at all. I would have doubted as well. But I think that Christ was looking at something, looking at something that he was really wanting his people to lay hold of, which is faith, not necessarily knowing the outcome, but knowing that he is in control of the outcome and that whatever happens is what he desired to have happen and it is for all of our good. So I hope that makes some sense. God's word, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 5:Sitting here thinking about why he wept as well. If you do a couple of verses down, it tells you exactly why he wept and it's because he loved him, and he loved him from the foundation of the planet or from the foundation of the world. That is why he wept is because he knew him beforehand. That's why I just wanted to. He knew him beforehand. That's why Yep, I just wanted to add that I was thinking about that. I was like taking a few verses down, it actually tells you why he wept. But anyway, I just wanted to add that. Sorry for interrupting you.
Speaker 1:No, you didn't interrupt at all. That's what we're here to do, brother. That's what we're here to do, us to have. So I want to get some of these verses out of the way, because now I I call the particular, uh, just this discussion ransom and redeemed and what the ransom does. It pays for the redemption, the ransom Pays For the redemption. Redemption is the buyback, but the ransom Is the, as I said earlier, the pecuniary Value, meaning that there is something Penal involved, that the one paying the ransom is paying In order to alleviate the person of the condemnation or the penal aspect of their situation. But we see that redemption throughout the old covenant, and the old covenant shows itself in many different ways and not just for humans. So in leviticus 25, 24, it says this and in all the land of your possession, you shall grant a redemption for the land. So, in other words, there was a redemption that was allowable for the land. Now, if you remember, oh, go ahead, java, no problem, brother, come back whenever you can. So, if you remember, remember when Ruth decided to stay with Naomi after the other Moabite lady left, who was married to one of Ruth's sons, I mean one of Naomi's sons. But Ruth decided to stay and Ruth ended up inheriting the land of her husband because Boaz redeemed it on her behalf. Redeemed it on her behalf. Now, the fact of the matter is he couldn't have done it unless the person who was next in line to possibly marry Ruth was able to do it. But there was a right that had to be observed where Boaz could force the other man to take Ruth to be her husband. And Boaz gambled, forced the man's hand and the man decided he wanted to be married to Ruth for whatever reason. And there was this humiliation sort of thing that takes place where you have to take off the shoe and you know all these other little things to take off his shoe and all you know all these other little things short. And the short story is because this one guy did not want the next guy in line, did not? The next brother did not want to marry ruth. Then boaz was able to move in and make her his wife and he was able to redeem the land that ruth's husband owned before he died. Is everybody. Did I lose anybody? All right Now. So redemption of the land, right?
Speaker 1:Exodus 21, verse 30. It says this If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom Of his life, whatever is laid upon him. The him that he's talking about Is an ox, an animal, an ox that was going to be killed. The fact of the matter is Oxen at that time An ox an animal, an ox that was going to be killed. The fact of the matter is oxen at that time, probably like still today, every now and then gore another person or gore another person's animal or whatever it is they gore, but when they do that they need it to be put down. Like when a dog bites your neighbor, you put the animal down. The same situation applied to the ox, but the ox could be redeemed under the Levitical law. Under the Levitical law Meaning, somebody could buy that ox and keep it from being subjected to the penal condemnation that was warranted when you gore another animal or a man. So buying the ox could be something. The ox could be redeemed by somebody else who's willing to take the responsibility of that ox, but the payment would avert the death of the ox.
Speaker 1:Now we come to numbers Numbers 35 and 35, verse 31 and 32. Moreover, you shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer which is guilty of death. He shall surely be put to death and you shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge that he should come again to dwell in the land until the death of the priest. So now we see here that one's own life in arrest of a judicial proceeding could also be redeemed, particularly from the standpoint to protect them from vengeance, which is why there was cities of refuge to protect you from vengeance to be taken out on you by the family members whom you offended by taking the life of their relative. We see this again in proverbs 6 35. He will not regard any ransom, neither will he rest content though you gave many gifts. He's talking about vengeance. He's talking about vengeance.
Speaker 1:Now I'm down to the last few verses and then I want to invite people to talk about it. Numbers 3, verse 46, 48, and 51. For those that are to be redeemed of the 203 score and 13 of the firstborn of the children of Israel, which are more than the Levites, verse 35. You shall give the money wherewith the odd number of them is to be redeemed unto Aaron and his sons. Skip down to verse 51. Moses gave the money of them that were redeemed to Aaron and his sons, according to the command of Moses.
Speaker 1:One more verse, last one. Now we jump from that one, from Numbers 3, 351, and go to Numbers 18, 15. Everything that opens the matrix, in other words, comes from the womb. In all flesh which they bring unto the Lord, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine. Nevertheless, the firstborn of man shall you surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beast shall you redeem. So now we're talking about the firstborn, over whom the Lord had claims, and what we see here is that the Lord is taking claim over the firstborn of man and the beast. Why did I cite these verses?
Speaker 1:I cited all these verses to point out that redemption, buying back, paying a ransom so that the person or thing or object being redeemed, avoids the wrath or the pecuniary Responsibility that has to be paid, avoids the wrath or the pecuniary responsibility that has to be paid for the crime or the issue that warrants their destruction. This was a common thing, and God provided a means for them to avert. What was inevitable. And what is also peculiar here and it shouldn't be Is that there was nothing that the land could do, that the murderer could do, that the ox could do or that the firstborn could do To get out of the situation that they were put in. That would warrant ransom. There was no choice in the matter. The ransom had to be paid by someone and keep in mind, according to the law, it wasn't about who paid it. Who paid the ransom wasn't the issue. The issue was that the debt was paid. There was a real debt that was going to be taken out on their hides, so to speak, literally, or somebody had to come in and pay the ransom so that the right of the person who held them in bondage no longer has that right Now.
Speaker 1:Christ made it clear to all of us. He made it clear to all of us that no man can serve two masters. You will serve one and hate the other, or you will serve the other and hate the other. But what he made clear In that Is that every one of us serves One of two masters. In this case, what Christ made clear You're either serving Satan or you're serving God At any given point. You're either serving Satan or you're serving God At any given point you're serving one. You're born serving Satan, born in bondage to sin, born dead, or you are a servant of God. Way that can take place is if a ransom has been paid on your behalf to remove you from being held in bondage under Satan.
Speaker 1:Christ said that the only way to spoil or to take the spoils from the strong man is to first bind the strong man and then you will spoil his goods. In other words, you will take the booty. Nobody read anything nasty and said that I'm talking about the goods. Now paul says in ephesians a similar thing when he says that when Christ came here, he led captivity. Captive, in other words, he freed them. So the point is, if Christ paid the ransom for you and me, as I intend to show later that means we were bought with a price and set free.
Speaker 1:But if the position or the place that we were in, we chose to be there and we are saying that we are free, then that ransom that he paid for us or that he paid for you wasn't a ransom at all. It wasn't for you. You say you are so many believers today. You say you're free. So if you say you're free, then the ransom that Christ was paying which involves somebody being in bondage, being held captive, being made rendered in bondage, being held captive, being rendered in bondage that's who he came to redeem. That's who he came to buy back.
Speaker 1:But if you are free, then that ransom you have no interest in. Why would you? You're saying it's your choice to be there. Like Kanye West said Slavery, that was a choice. It's idiotic. But In a spiritual sense, this is exactly what the greater part of Christianity Is telling people. It's just your choice, that's all it is. You're not in bondage. You chose to be in bondage and you can choose to be in Christ, so a ransom would be unnecessary. Let me stop there for a minute, brother DT. I'm going to call on you, brother. What do you think?
Speaker 3:I don't know if I have an echo, but well done, jonathan, well done. It was perfectly executed in your depiction. Yes, the first of everything, first of beast, first of man, first fruits, it belongs to God, and so when we recognize the fact that if we are His chosen, then we are that which is owned and it is completely something that was already prescribed, predetermined. Everything was just essentially playing out and we are just seeing that fulfillment play out. And because it takes on certain mechanics, the will that we see in the regeneration phase, we experience it, but we don't cause it. So, because we experience it, from our perspective, we feel like we are the ones who initiate that effect, and there's nothing further from the truth. So well done. You did a really good job, Excellent job, showing that. Thanks, brother. I appreciate that Coming from you. That means a lot to me, brother it well done, you did a really good job, excellent job, showing that.
Speaker 1:Thanks, brother. I appreciate that Coming from you, that means a lot to me, brother, it really does. It really does. Sister Robin I think it is Robin any ideas, thoughts you want to contribute?
Speaker 9:Not right now, because I just came in and I'm still listening. I'm not sure if it's going along with what my thoughts are, what I just read tonight in the scripture, so I don't want to throw anything off track.
Speaker 1:You can throw it off track if you want to Tell us what you understand.
Speaker 9:I was reading Romans tonight. It's in chapter four. God chose the Gentile people to be part of his chosen children. That's true. All the way back to Abraham.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 9:I never knew that. I thought we didn't come into the picture until Paul did. Uh-uh, he already had us in mind all the way back then.
Speaker 8:How do you know?
Speaker 9:Because it says it right in scripture, because Abraham was justified as righteous before he was circumcised Before, not after, as the law stated.
Speaker 1:You came to the right place, sister, as the law stated, you came to the right place sister and I was reading.
Speaker 9:I read this tonight and it absolutely blew my mind. I was like, wait a minute. We were in God's mind to be part of his chosen children all the way from the beginning.
Speaker 1:Do you remember what Abraham's name was and then why it was changed and what it was changed to?
Speaker 9:Well, his name was Abram, Okay, and it was changed, and what it?
Speaker 1:was changed to Well. His name was Abram.
Speaker 9:Okay, and it was changed to Abraham, which means what You're tripping me up? Father of something, father of many nations there you go, father of many nations.
Speaker 9:Yeah, because that was God's promise. Yes, you're right. And then I was reading about how Abraham was justified in God's eyes as righteous, not because of what he did, but because he believed. Even in his old age, knowing that his physical body was done, he still believed in the promise that God told him. He had no doubt in his mind that God would do what he said. So he wasn't thinking in the flesh, he was thinking in the spirit. He was believing in the spirit.
Speaker 1:Lady Robin, you better keep telling it, sister. I hope everybody here who's listening and listen to what you're saying because it's one of you haven't been wrong yet.
Speaker 9:Well, thank you, because I was looking at this and I'm sitting here, I'm going God, am I right? Am I getting this? Do I really understand this? And then, when I read the part about how he was justified in righteousness in God's eyes before he was circumcised, he was justified in righteousness in God's eyes before he was circumcised. So therefore, god already had those of us in mind that did not belong to the Jews. He already had the plan to bring us into the family through his son, johnny January.
Speaker 1:You there, brother? Yeah, do you agree with what Sister Robin just said?
Speaker 7:Oh yeah, I agree with her totally yes.
Speaker 1:Does anybody here disagree with what she just said?
Speaker 7:Well, I agree with what she's saying, but I was thinking more or less. Before Abram left his house, god told him to do something, and that was to go and pull down the God that his father was worshiping, and I think that that was a pole or something. It was something that he was working on.
Speaker 1:Can you text me the passage scripture you talked about, because I never heard that before? So if you can find that what you're talking about, send me the verse you're talking about, because I'm not familiar with that, not offhand, okay. But Sister Robin, what she said is 100% correct and if anybody disagrees with that, throw a hand up here so I can call on you to get your perspective on it. But she nailed it.