The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Ransom & Redeemed (Part 3 of 5)
The profound truth of Christ's redemptive work cuts straight through our modern misconceptions about spiritual freedom. Far from being a mere exhibition or public spectacle, the cross represents an incomprehensible transaction with eternal consequences for humanity.
This spiritual conversation dives deep into what it truly means to be ransomed by Christ. When Jesus paid the price for our sins, he wasn't simply putting on a show to evoke sympathy—he was fulfilling an eternal agreement within the Godhead to redeem those given to him by the Father. The implications are staggering for how we understand our relationship with God.
Many Christians today proudly declare, "We have never been in bondage to anyone," echoing the words Jesus confronted in John 8. Yet this perspective fundamentally misunderstands our spiritual condition. Like prisoners who possess only "confined freedom" within their circumstances, unregenerate humans can make choices but remain bound by the limitations of their sinful nature. We are moral agents operating within constraints—fish free to swim but only within the confines of our fishbowl.
The conversation takes fascinating turns through biblical passages that illuminate how even repentance is a gift from God (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, 2 Timothy 2:25). When we understand God's immutable attributes—his unchanging, sovereign, omniscient nature—we gain clarity about divine election, predestination, and the beauty of grace. As one participant powerfully observes: "Hell glorifies God's justice, and heaven glorifies God's grace."
Are you ready to move beyond surface-level Christianity and become a true student of God's Word? Join this thought-provoking conversation that challenges popular notions of salvation while offering a more biblically grounded, humbling, and ultimately more glorious understanding of what Christ accomplished at Calvary.
And so and it's funny because everybody who's usually here you know that we're we're in Galatians, where we're talking about justification by faith, and this is a, this is a sort of an interim message that leans back into Galatians. And this is why I want to point out what this ransom and redemption is all about, because it is very specific what Christ has done for us. His cross was not a pageant. The cross of Christ wasn't a pageant. It wasn't an exhibition for the voyeurs to look at and look at him and see how they should be. What he did at that cross was something that is beyond what the human mind can contemplate.
Speaker 1:If you bring a collective of all humanity from all ages, what he did at that cross was incomprehensible and had measureless or immeasurable consequences for the righteous and the reprobate. That's how big it is. Somebody says nope, wasn't a plan B. He's right, it was not a plan B. What he did, he did you can't put into words, did you can't put into words. And what he requires of us is simply to believe and to look at him with the eyes of faith and to doubt not, which is clearly established in Romans 4, as our sister pointed out and discussed and it was funny to me that she thought we might have a problem with that, but I'll tell you something. Anybody who has a problem With what she was talking about and I'm not trying to puff you up, sister, but anybody who has a problem with that Doesn't know the Lord, or at least the way they should. Sister Mariah, go ahead, sister.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about what it was you guys were saying, and I was reading John 8, 31. And it says then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him if you abide in my word, you are my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. And they answered him. We are Abraham's descendants. We have never been in bondage to anyone, so how can you say you will be made free? And then Jesus answered them, most assuredly. I say to you whoever commits sin is a slave of sin, and a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son does abide forever. If, therefore, if anyone, if the son makes you free, you shall be free indeed oh, let me, let me tell you something, sister.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something now. I, you know, I I, whenever I do these, lies lives which I'm hoping to get back to every day, starting today. I make my notes. I don't just come in here and just willy-nilly it, because I think your souls are too important for me to dilly-dally, dally, dally, um. But when it comes to me laying out my outline for the things I want to address, I know where I'm going to go and I have my verses and my points that I want to make sure I iterate in your, in your hearing, and what you just cited is near the end of my my thing here. It is near the end of my my thing here, but I love it, because this is, this is like you see, people that are always talking about you know, they review movies and they review TV shows or music or whatever, or, and they tell you they don't want to give you, they don't want to spoil it for you, they don't want to give you the spoiler, spoiler, and so they give you a spoiler or load, so you can, so you can leave and not hear it, but I gotta tell you, when it comes to the word of god. If somebody gets out ahead of where I'm going, I'm happy about it. Nothing thrills my heart more when when going through the word of god with my brethren in Christ is when somebody turns on the light, or the light turns on. The spirit of God turns on the light in them and shows them where I'm going. Because not only is it good for you when you do it, it's good for me because it's telling me that the Lord has taken us down the right path. It's good for me because it's telling me that the Lord is taking us down the right path.
Speaker 1:And what she said, what Mariah just said, is 100% true, because these folks were saying that we have never been in bondage to anyone. Isn't that what the word? Isn't that what the Christians in this modern world today are saying? Isn't this what they're saying? Every time one of these people tells you that salvation can only come when you exercise your freedom of will, aren't you saying that I am not in bondage to any man. It's up to me. And any man in your idea includes christ, the god man. That opinion, that perspective, that view, that delusion should break the heart of every christian who knows the truth, heart of every Christian who knows the truth. People are willfully deceiving themselves into believing their will is what brings them salvation. We know we came to Christ. We know we trusted in him, we know we repented. But what most of us don't realize is that he is a reason why we were able to do so, a reason why we were able to do so. We were all. We're all here because we were born physically in the flesh.
Speaker 1:None of us remember what it was like being in the hospital coming out of the matrix. None of us remember what the doctor looked like. None of us remember what the doctor looked like. None of us remember what the nurses looked like. None of us remembered how our mother cried or how the father was there waiting saying come on out, junior. None of us remember any of that.
Speaker 1:But, like Brother Greg says, you need to read the Bible to find out what happened to you. It tells us. It tells us what really happened. And so the prevailing View by so many Christians Out there today Is that we are not in bondage to anyone. Christians are actually going out there preaching this as though it is the gospel.
Speaker 1:The gospel is not that you have a free will, just accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. But that's not what the Bible actually teaches. It talks about repentance. It talks about looking into the perfect law of God and realizing that you have fallen short and missed the mark. But even the ability to repent is a gift from God. All of the aspects that are involved in the technical term in theology, soteriology, all of it comes from God. Even repentance for salvation comes from God.
Speaker 1:Go read Acts 11 to 18. Go read Acts 13, 48. Go read 2 Timothy 2, verse 25. 48. Go read 2 Timothy, chapter 2, verse 25. Even repentance has to be granted and given. But, like our brother Greg said, that's something you have to go to the word of God to read in order to know what happened For Christ to be a ransom. It implies that there is someone else who has rights over us, placing us in bondage, which warrants him making the deal, so to speak. Making the deal, so to speak? Making the deal with who? Making the deal with the father? They agreed on a price. The triune Godhead agreed God Sent his son, who agreed to pay the price of his life, and the father said I will accept that gift and when you do what we agreed that you would do. I will be reconciled To those folks who I am giving you to redeem and they will be your inheritance and I will look at them and see them the exact same way. I see you, my son, I see you, my son, and, believe it or not, you got Christians, people that call themselves Christians, that have a problem with that, and I'll never understand how somebody who claims to love the Lord, jesus Christ, finds that as something repulsive, how they look upon this teaching with disdain.
Speaker 1:For Christ to be a ransom for us. It means a secession, a cessation that the rights that we had been abdicated unto and, to be honest with you, not necessarily for any fault of our own. Adam's sin wasn't my sin. I didn't do what Adam and Eve did, neither did you. But he acted as our federal head, just like the president of our nation, who, whatever he does, we have to go through it, we suffer from it or benefit from it, whatever happens. But guess what? When Christ came and paid the price and bought us for a price, redeeming us unto God, he also acted as our federal representative for those of us who were chosen in him, who were given to him by the father to be redeemed. He laid down his life for us.
Speaker 1:And this takes me back to this whole thing about the pageant or an exhibition. Christ didn't come here to just put on a show to warrant sympathy from moral agents. That's not what he did. He came here to effectually redeem and save those for whom were given to him by the father to redeem, and not one soul, not one soul that the father gave him, will be lost and not saved. Single soul for whom Christ died shall be brought home to the Lord and shall see him in his flesh, like Job expected in 19, 19th chapter of Job, in verse 25.
Speaker 1:Job knew Abraham knew verse 25. Job knew Abraham knew Moses knew David knew I could go on and on with this. But God's people, like Jesus said, they know his voice, they hear his voice and they follow him. They don't contemplate following him, they don't decide if they want to follow him, they don't accept him. They follow him. Why? Because they know his voice and only his voice will they follow. I'm going to go to the grave standing on that, if nothing else. To go to the grave standing on that, if nothing else.
Speaker 3:I know my lord's voice when I hear it, and so should all of you so should all of you man go ahead I was kind of out of pot because my boss called, but um, um, that's true, I mean, everything is true, and I think it's just to me. I wonder if it's like a maturity thing, like we're all at different stages and different places in our sanctification, but like when we get to this, when we get to this space of maturity, you know and Paul talks about it a lot we this, we, we thought like a child, but when we move on, there's, there's scripture that has to be faced, like. I'll give you an example Somebody today said this verse twice. It says the verse that says we are not appointed to wrath. Okay, Cause we were talking about the end times, and they stopped. I said appointed to wrath? Okay, because we were talking about the end times, and they stopped.
Speaker 3:I said finish the verse. But salvation in christ jesus. Well, why are they're talking about the end times? And I was like, why does no one ever finish that verse? The reason why we're not appointed to wrath is because we have salvation in christ jesus. So why is it that, if, if, if, if there's part of scripture that is uncomfortable, why just glaze over it? Why not go back to it and say okay, lord, here I am Right. Reveal this to me Right. Go into prayer. Real. Let let the Holy spirit reveal these things to you. Are there, are there truths in this Bible that are uncomfortable, absolutely?
Speaker 3:As they should be as they should be, because the truth is not something that you know. A lot of people want to paint God how. I hear so many people on lives talking about how they think god should be, how they think he should act.
Speaker 1:Oh well, if he's god, then he wouldn't do this this oh my god, and I'm like oh, my god, and that's like stop the nonsense because it is nonsense I hear that, so I hear that so so often, so often, um so often. God wouldn't do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:God wouldn't be this way if he did this, and I think it's bold and brazen, I think it's foolish, but this is where we are today. Candy, let me ask you a question, sister, are you there, candy, are you here? Let me ask you a question, sister, are you there, candy? Are you there? Let me ask you a question If a person, man or woman, finds themselves imprisoned because of having committed a violent crime, is there any scenario when you would say that person Is free? What circumstances Can you think of when a person who is in prison for 30 years when it can still be said they're free?
Speaker 6:They have salvation in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about just free to do what they want to do. Yeah.
Speaker 6:Are they free?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is there a scenario where they could say I have free will to do what I want to do, even though they're in prison? Is there a scenario where it could be said that they are free?
Speaker 6:See, now, that's kind of a trick question to ask me, because for me they're not free, because they're being told to do what to do, when to do it, how to do it, what time they can do it and the directives on how to do it when it's done. So to be free not necessarily no okay under someone's authority.
Speaker 1:All right, God's word. Let me ask you the same question Is there any scenario where a person who is in prison can still be said to have freedom in some capacity?
Speaker 4:Is there any scenario? No, they're under the will of the warden and the guards. They are at the behest of whoever is in control of that prison. They have no freedom. Let me ask this question.
Speaker 6:They're free in Jesus, though.
Speaker 1:I know that, but I'm talking about on a surface. Can anybody here think of a scenario where a person can be said to be free even though they're in prison?
Speaker 2:go ahead, mariah I, I mean, I guess at that point, when, uh, when they come to the end of their life, I mean, you're so bound, but that's as far as I can see it being free.
Speaker 1:So let me, let me, let me, let me posit this to everybody, because I see a scenario where, where it could be said and Peter and Peter are in the in the comments, he said it limit, limited freedom is what he's saying.
Speaker 1:If I'm having discussions with free will and I have a lot of them, um, with some of the people that I know, so we have the conversations quite a bit, and anybody who knows me knows I'm a big proponent of this subject but but what I will say is this and it's not a concession, but it may sound like one when I get started, so don't chop my head off before I finish you can be in prison and, like all of you said, you're not free. You're subject to the guidelines of the prison, subject to the guidelines of the warden and the guards and what not, but you are limited in freedom. In other words, there are freedoms that you have, but that freedom is within the constraints Of your situation, your condition. Yeah, so what I'm saying is this we are moral agents, mankind, we're moral agents, but we are Bound by our sinful nature. So the choices that we make are what?
Speaker 3:anybody. Fine, so we can, only we can. Oh, we are only free to do. What you're saying is we can, we are only free to do whatever is that the nature allows us to do.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:So if a fish is in a fishbowl, that fish can only swim, go wherever he wants freely, but he's still in that fishbowl, or like, even when, like we were bondage to sin, are you free? Yeah, you're free to sin as much as you want, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Your choices as a person With a sinful nature, and only a sinful nature Will only be free within the confines Of that sinful nature. Does that make sense? Does that make sense, robin?
Speaker 4:yeah, and I'm learning, I'm listening, I'm just listening all right I'm going I just.
Speaker 6:When you say it like that, then you might as well just call it confined freedom what's that again, sorry. Sorry, call it a confined freedom yes, I like that, that's basically it confined freedom. The fish kind of made that sound yeah, confined, you're confined to that specific domain and that's all the freedom you have.
Speaker 1:That's right To only sin Mariah. Go ahead, sister.
Speaker 2:I have to paraphrase the verse, but it says that when you were under sin, yet you were free from righteousness. Yes, we were not able to do that which was righteous because we were under sin, yet you were free from righteousness. Yes, we were not able to do that which was right righteous because we were under that sin. So, um, likewise, you know the same. I guess that's that's exactly what you're saying, correct?
Speaker 1:Right, that's what I'm saying, in other words, in other words, you're. You're. Because the whole idea that is usually communicated when people talk about freedom of will, most people that talk about this are suggesting that they have total indifference. They are completely unbiased in any given circumstances, and so, to me, that would render anyone neutral. And so, to me, that would render anyone neutral, because, at some point, when you make a choice, that means that your will has been abdicated for that which you rejected. When you choose to go one way, you have rejected the other way, and so it cannot be said anymore that your will is free.
Speaker 1:This is why, when Adam sinned, he died, and his ability to do what was right was gone the moment he sinned once, and so at that point, the Lord had to figure out.
Speaker 1:Well, he didn't have to figure out, but the Lord presented to us that he had to provide a way for us to be redeemed, ransomed and bought back, and to be bought back requires a price being paid, and the divine tribunal counseled within themselves Father, son and Holy Spirit, and the decision was made from eternity that the Son of God, the second person of the triune, godhead, would put on human flesh and come down here to die in order to redeem man.
Speaker 1:He did this because there was no man who could Acquire the righteousness Needed To repair and reconcile man To God. So If that is what, if that was what was needed to happen, then how can any one of these clowns run around telling people and I'm not talking about young Christians that don't know yet? Like somebody mentioned, there are people that have to learn and grow up in the faith to understand these things, because it starts to get heavy. But you have people who are schooled schooled in these things, who've been Christians and they'll brag about they've been Christian for all these years and it seems that they still have a fundamental misunderstanding of the basic elements of the faith but you know what I've learned brother jonathan is like here lately, the last two years I think, I've been, you know, studying the bible way way more.
Speaker 3:Not that I didn't before, but this is a different type of of study. But once one understands that that verse in jonah 2 9, salvation is of the lord, and you take yourself where you once inserted yourself in that salvation, the humbleness that you feel instantly. Because I'm not going to lie, I have to be in control, I have to know what's going on. But when it comes to the Lord, like it was hard for me, because even as a human, like we want to say, okay, I, I have precedent over this. This is something that I can control. But once the holy spirit reveals to you that you got to, let this go and realize what you are saved.
Speaker 3:What are you saved from? Who saved you when somebody saves another individual? If me and you were walking down the sidewalk and you were crossing the street and a truck came and tried to run you over, it would be nothing of yourself that saved you. Why? Because you didn't know that that truck was coming. It was me, the observer from the outside, that grabbed you and threw you to the sidewalk because you would not know. So what makes I mean any time in a movie where you see somebody getting saved, it's not hey, I'm choosing to please come save me real quick. You know it doesn't work like that. And when you experience this and this is what you understand, john 17, three and this is eternal life, that they may know you, the one true God in Jesus Christ, in whom you have sent, and when we realize that that is the relationship and that is what's going to happen, I encourage everybody please go study the attributes of God, because this is the journey when you know him.
Speaker 1:I always say that I really believe that probably 90% of all disputes can be solved from the perspective of understanding the attributes of God, when you consider the fact that God does not change, see, because the problem is, people have a hard time stringing multiple thoughts together.
Speaker 1:So, and it's understandable, because of the society that we live in right now, we're not exactly the most intellectual, academic society that we probably used to be. But all Christians, brethren, I'm telling you we need to be academics when it comes to the word of God, and I don't mean secular in a secular sense, I mean like we need to become students of the word of God, all of us. Now, and here's what I'm saying, when you take the fact that God is immutable, like Brother Robert Slim says, he's immutable, he does not change. Think about this for a second. If you were Esau, when God says Jacob I've loved and Esau when God says Jacob I've loved and Esau I've hated, and God doesn't change, what does that do to the context of his love for Jacob and his hatred for Esau? What does that do? Because he doesn't change?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it brings about a realization that you have to reconcile.
Speaker 1:Reconcile what. Go ahead and say it, because people don't like to talk about it, but you got to say it, that God hates.
Speaker 3:No, but it's not only that, it's that if he does now, he always did and he always will yes, and but the the thing about it is is like, again, people have to wrap their mind around a god that is infinite and he is omnipotent. He is omniscient, he is sovereign, he is. Just. This is what we have to. He has foreknowledge, the foreknowledge of God. That just. I just got done studying the foreknowledge and let me tell you it's amazing, but it has the believer in a place of lord, you really really love us.
Speaker 3:yes, because you. You didn't have to lord god. You would be just if, after adam sinned that your creation continued and said you know what? You guys can continue, but sin has to be paid for this got messed up and guess what? You're all going to hell. He could have done that, and guess what? He would have been just doing it.
Speaker 1:See, here's the thing. Here's the thing about that Like because here's the thing we talk about God's election, we talk about God predetermined, his predetermination, his predestining those to salvation. And you get this class of Christians who are the one like that makes God evil, that makes him wicked, that makes him unfair, that makes him unjust, unjust, that makes him unjust. But then the same people, the very same people that tell you that, are the same people that believe that God knows all things, that he knows all things and therefore, knowing that someone is going to reject him all their lives, die and be cast into hell. But they're telling me that if God predestines, he's unloving, what's more, unloving God predestining, predestinating some to salvation, leaving others to succumb to their own reprobate ways, desiring to do that, not desiring salvation, or foreseeing that they're going to reject god all their lives and that he's going to cast him into hell. Why create them then? How would that be loving? By your own argument?
Speaker 3:because what we, what we find, is that this is what I've learned hell those are. God will get his glory from the believer and from the unbeliever. That's right, and what we find is that hell glorifies god's justice, right and heaven glorifies god's grace.
Speaker 1:You better keep preaching that message like that, because that's the truth.
Speaker 7:Brother DT. What do you think, brother? No, I think you're right on. I think this entire panel was really blessed to have you, john, but I actually got to drop out. I just didn't know how to check out respectfully, but I definitely enjoyed my time here.
Speaker 1:Well, you always welcome me, as you know, brother, you always know that, and we appreciate you have a good night, johnny, january.
Speaker 6:What are you thinking?
Speaker 1:Okay, Shit, oh man, johnny, you there.
Speaker 4:Yep, I'm here.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 4:Anything you want to contribute. You know, I, just you know, I look at the world today. I mean I look at the, the, the, the kids, the children, I mean the, the, the people that's coming up, the teenagers and the this listening to this, um, this rap music and the stars of this, so-called these rappers and everything, and and they believe that if they sell their I think we lost a brother.
Speaker 1:I think we lost him, joshua, your thoughts.
Speaker 5:I think, just like the sister said a minute ago, god is glorified in his judgment, just as he is in his showing of mercy. In fact, pouring out his justice and wrath upon the unbeliever makes our salvation that much more of a beautiful, glorious thing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Angel. How are you doing? Sister?
Speaker 3:Good to see you. I tried to hurry up and get in here. I see I got the end of it the good stuff. That was a bad joke.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I wake up and I see her comments and I'm just so glad that you're like a bright spot in my mornings when I wake up and see you popped up there saying something.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I love seeing your story every day. I love it.
Speaker 1:Good, I'm glad you could make it up, because this is the first time you came up right. The second time, second time Okay, I knew it wasn't too many times.