The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: True Sons of Abraham (Part 5 of 5)
Abraham's faith came before circumcision, before the Jewish identity was established—a critical insight that reshapes how we understand salvation. This revelation forms the foundation of our discussion as we explore what it truly means to be justified by faith alone.
We dive into the radical nature of God's grace, examining why humans persistently try to insert themselves into the salvation equation. "What part of 'not of yourself' do people not understand?" one participant challenges, highlighting our natural resistance to accepting salvation as entirely God's work. This tendency traces back to our fallen nature—the desire to "be like God" that began in Eden.
The metaphor of sheep and goats provides a powerful illustration of divine election. Christ's sheep hear his voice and follow him not because they've made a wise decision, but because they belong to him. As one speaker notes, "Not a single soul that the Father gave to Christ will He fail to bring home." This truth offers profound security while acknowledging God's sovereignty in salvation.
Perhaps most sobering is our examination of Christ's words, "I never knew you." These may be the most terrifying words anyone could hear, revealing that salvation isn't primarily about our knowledge of God but about being known by Him. Those truly saved are those Christ has always known as His own.
We conclude with the beautiful doctrine of justification—how Christ's perfect obedience is credited to believers. Through faith, we receive his righteousness as if it were our own. Like Abraham, who trusted God despite seemingly impossible circumstances, we're called to a faith that looks beyond present limitations to the God who always fulfills His promises.
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You go through the New Testament and you read the passages that talk about that. Talk about, you know, the Pharisees or the Sadducees or whatever, saying that Abraham was their father. Jesus says, no, you may be in his bloodline, you may have been circumcised. But in verse 8, when Paul says that the scripture foresees that God would justify the Gentiles by faith preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying that in thee shall all nations be blessed, this was before circumcision. This was a promise to Abraham before he was circumcised. This was before there was anything that was referred to as Jew. That was referred to as Jew. Think about that for a second. We have Abraham and Isaac, abraham, isaac and Jacob as our fathers, but Abraham was told the gospel and Abraham was told that the Gentiles would be justified by the faith that he has. This was all done before there was any such thing as a Jewish nation, before there was any such thing as circumcision, which was used as a badge to identify those who were to be, those who were favored by God in a physical sense, predicting, showing us that in the future generations that God would show himself to be a God, the God of all nations, all tongues, all kindreds.
Speaker 1:You can start by just looking at who's in this panel. But there's something, there's a tie that binds us all here, and that tie is that we all share one thing in common that is significant in our relationship, making us family, and that is we all have the faith of Abraham. We are uniquely selected by God for no reason that we can see in and of ourselves, because there's nothing in ourselves that would warrant God doing anything in our favor. It is undeserved. We are undesirable, we are wretched. We are not inclined to believe what is required to be believed in order to be saved. As those who believe, there is nothing that makes us different from the atheists, other than faith that is given to us, and without that being given to us, we would be no different than them, which is why we should understand we are a special people, a holy nation. We're called a special people, a holy nation. We're called a peculiar people.
Speaker 1:Peter in 1 Peter 2.9, is quoting out of Deuteronomy. We are peculiar people. My sister Pat says so that none may boast, none may boast. None of us were saved because of our intellectual prowess or because of our capacity to harness complex ideas and philosophical notions. No, like Meg brings up quite often In Jonah 2.9. What does it say Meg? Jonah 2.9. What does it say?
Speaker 2:Salvation is of the.
Speaker 1:Lord From beginning to end. Salvation is of the Lord, there's nothing else to it. Salvation is of the Lord, there's nothing else to it. Salvation is all of God, all of Christ, all of the Holy Spirit, and none of us.
Speaker 2:I just don't understand. When we read that verse that says salvation is, by grace, not of yourselves, lest any man boast. What part of not of yourself do people not understand? And why is it that man, regardless of what they're reading, wants to put themselves there Like, why is that? Is that the flesh side of man wanting to put themselves in a place of work? Because if salvation was of yourself in any way, just like Paz just said, then there would be a place to boast.
Speaker 2:And there isn't a place to boast, and there, isn't there isn't. But why don't people believe this Like it's like we read scriptures. The question is do you, does the believer believe what they're reading Right? Do you believe it Right?
Speaker 1:Let me, let me. There's a passage.
Speaker 2:You were going to say something.
Speaker 4:Sorry, let me. There's a passage you were going to say something. Sorry, not only that, but sorry. So what you said when you said, what is it about man? I think it is in our nature. I think it goes back to Adam and Eve, like they wanted to be like God and eat from the tree and know good and evil. I think people want to put themselves in the place of god, sometimes um in synergism and in um salvation, and put their self in the spot of god and um also in the way that god has done. Salvation and grace truly remains grace if it's unmerited. Um in the, in the way that man inserts himself into thinking that they play a part in salvation, grace ceases to be grace, which Paul addresses in scripture.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, see, that's the end, all be all.
Speaker 2:But where they insert themselves. Everybody inserts themselves at the exact same spot themselves. Everybody inserts themselves at the exact same spot. God you, you may have chose me, but I chose you. Let's get it straight. Well, that's how that is. That is just insane to me but see, that's because, but?
Speaker 1:but it shouldn't be right, because when you think about it, wasn't that how we were before? Like what? What? Like the thing? This is what should give us that ability to understand what the condition of men are who are outside of christ. I was there, I know I was there. I heard the gospel before I came to christ. I'm sure most people here heard the gospel before they came to christ. Why didn't to Christ? Why didn't they come then? Why didn't you come then? I'm speaking to everybody Because we weren't regenerated. No, we weren't. But what I'm saying is but it makes us understand, and what it ought to do is impact the way we structure our conversation. Because what's that?
Speaker 6:I said it wasn't in god's timing for us to come that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:but what I'm getting at is that we, we understand because, see, now we understand, we know, like vega saying now we understand, we know. Like Megan was saying now we understand and know, and now it's bewildering how people don't get it.
Speaker 6:Well, because what I'm gathering right now, based off you saying that, is because he's not going to make anybody do anything. If we hear it, he's waiting on us to answer that call waiting on us to answer that call and those who hear it and don't answer that call, that's.
Speaker 2:But how can you hear us? You're dead. You know what I?
Speaker 4:mean god says that we have um. Is that don't hear eyes? I don't see in the mind that don't understand um. Faith comes by hearing. God says his sheep will hear his voice. So god is the first cause of anyone being able to hear the gospel.
Speaker 6:His sheep respond because even before we were in the womb.
Speaker 4:When it says about the mind, it's god that grants repentance, change of mind. It's god that allows people to see the kingdom of god, no one will enter the kingdom, no one will be um. Reborn they won't see the kingdom of god, so it's reborn that they won't see the kingdom of god, so it's god that is the first cause of all these things in the believer faith, faith romans she's.
Speaker 1:She passes 100 right, 100 right. See, here's the thing if god is waiting for us to come, it will never happen. It will never happen. It will never happen. We have to be changed in order for us to even repent Acts 11, 18. 2 Timothy 2, 25. We have to be made to see what we could not see before. The blinders are already there, and the only one who can remove the blinders is the Lord himself.
Speaker 2:That's why regeneration precedes faith. He sees everything.
Speaker 1:A man must be born again before he can see anything. He's incapable. And the difference between what the Bible actually teaches and what so many people in modern Christianity today. They say that man can see it. He just has to make a decision one way or the other. He's he's, he's unbiased, he's, he's in. I mean he's he's in. By unbiased, he's indifferent. All things are what's called Adiaphora. It's crazy talk. We're born dead and must be given a new heart, and the new heart is the heart that we get and we receive as a gift from god. That then enables us to choose. The new heart is the one that embraces christ, that seeks repentance, that understands the impact of the law and what it did and how it killed us.
Speaker 6:So, while Paul says in chapter 4 that he's afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain, because chapter 4, verse 8, he says but then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not.
Speaker 5:God's.
Speaker 6:Right. But now, after you have known God, or rather are known by god, how is it that you turn again to the weak and vaguely elements to which you desire again to be in bondage, right? So? You right now days and months and seasons and years.
Speaker 1:See right now it's important for people to know Christ, to see him and to know him. But we learned a very important lesson in Matthew 7. We learned that what really happens in the end of it all is that we are actually known by him. Remember when he said when Christ said at judgment day, at the judgment seat, he says to those goats he says depart from me. I never knew you, I never, I never knew you. This is something that I think should be a part of every sermon I never knew you, never. There are no scarier words that any person can ever hear than to hear the words that fall from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ, the glorified Savior, when he tells people on Judgment I never knew you and if you look that up, it means never, ever, ever but why did he never know them?
Speaker 4:because they were never his they were never his sheep they were not his sheep, jesus says that he knows his sheep and his sheep know him and they fought.
Speaker 1:They hear his voice, and they what? And they?
Speaker 6:can't not a and they what? And they kind of go.
Speaker 1:They follow not a stranger, they follow him and they don't know a stranger. That's all they know.
Speaker 2:But here's the other thing that you have to look at too. In that verse is he says my sheep. Now the question is are there other sheep? Are there goats? But they're not. Of what this fold.
Speaker 1:Right, see, he makes the point that there is a difference, there's a divide between humanity. There are sheep and there are goats, and if you know anything about the two, you will understand the significance.
Speaker 5:The nature of the two.
Speaker 1:The nature of the two. That's right. Ghosts are independent creatures. They want to go their own way. They want to explore. They want to do their own. They are progressive. This is what they are. They wander off and they just go do their own thing. They're stubborn, rebellious. They can't be harnessed or corralled. I should say sheep are dumb and need a separate deaf and.
Speaker 1:Sheep are the dumbest animals in the animal kingdom, but the one thing that they do, they know the voice of their shepherd, and him they will follow and know and they will follow no other voice, no other voice. They don't go and explore like the goats do, but they often. They don't go and explore Like the goats do, but they often wander or meander aimlessly, not because they're trying to, just because they're dumb, they just go. But what did Christ say about the wandering sheep?
Speaker 5:He leaves the 99 to go for the one.
Speaker 1:That's right. He leaves and he goes and he retrieves them and he brings them back.
Speaker 2:How many does he bring them back? He put the sheep on his shoulders.
Speaker 1:And brought them back. He brings them back, and that's the thing. So the whole point of that whole idea is that there is not one, there is not a single sheep, not a single soul that the father gave to christ, that he will not bring home anyone who does not come home to glory, anyone who does not come. They were never his.
Speaker 2:He says All that the father has given me Will come.
Speaker 6:Well, he even says also, donnie, that those who you gave me, I have not lost one.
Speaker 5:Not one Can I explain something about the sheepfold there, because I love it.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 5:So the sheepfold Was Because I love it. Sure. So the sheepfold was a walled area where many shepherds would actually leave their sheep in, right? So when Christ says my sheep hear my voice and follow, what he means is only the shepherd who calls, only their sheep comes out of the fold, right. But what does that signify? That signifies that there are others, there are sheep belonging to other shepherds, false shepherds, false pastors yes but it's only christ's who comes out to him. They're the only ones who are saved.
Speaker 6:Amen, that is beautiful the way you just said that too.
Speaker 1:It is. Mariah wanted to talk about a verse and I want to address it before I close because I don't like to leave any stone left unturned. And Mariah asked about Romans, chapter 2, verse 13. And Mariah asked about Romans, chapter 2, verse 13. I'm going to start at verse 11, where Paul says there is no partiality with God, and the reason why I picked that verse to start with is because this is exactly what Paul is talking about in Galatians 3, verses 7 through 9, that all nations will be blessed and that the collective of Abraham will be people of many nations. And also, you see that being Paul being consistent, this is what it says in Romans, chapter 2, verse 11 there is no partial to ethnicity, there's no regard to bloodline, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And he says in verse 12, for as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law. And what this means is very simple. It means this is that outside of faith, outside of faith whether you keep the law, if you keep the law or attempt to keep the law, you will be judged by the law, meaning that there's no way righteousness is going to be had. There's no way that justification is going to be had trying to keep the law, because as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law. But before that he says for as many as have sinned without the law shall perish without the law. So a lot of times people will say do you mean to tell that if somebody, if somebody has never heard the gospel, that they're, that they're going to be condemned? Yes, this is the verse that proves it. He says for as many as have sinned without the law meaning having no affiliation with the law whatsoever they will perish without the law.
Speaker 1:Because not having the law doesn't eradicate the sin that you committed outside of the law. Man has to pay the debt to God regardless. The wages of sin is death, no way around it. It doesn't say that the Bible doesn't teach it just because the law has been given or the law has not been given, that you are absolved from the debt owed to god. Why is that way? I don't know. God does what he does and we fall in line because he's a just god. He's a just god, he's just and that's the key thing.
Speaker 1:But here's verse 13. Paul says this parenthetically. For it is not the hearers of the law that are just or justified in the sight of God, but it is the doers of the law. But the doers of the law will be justified, and this is the verse of question. Now let me read verse 14.
Speaker 1:For when the Gentiles, who do not have the law by nature, do the things in the law, these also, not having the law, are law unto themselves who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and between themselves their thoughts, accusing or else excusing them. So and then the last verse. Let me just read the last verse In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. So in verse 13, mariah, when he says for it is not the hearers of the law, for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Now, here's the thing law shall be justified. Now, here's the thing who are the doers of the law who are justified? Does anybody want to give an answer to that? Who are the doers of the law who are justified?
Speaker 4:It's those that do the will of the Father.
Speaker 1:Be more precise. And how are they made righteous by that? And so how are they made righteous by? His faith okay, but what? But what I'm getting at I want, just there's something deeper I'm looking for I would say it's nobody you say what's the, what the the ones?
Speaker 5:the ones who are doers of the law are justified by the law. That's nobody.
Speaker 6:Nobody is that's what he goes on. He imputed in our hearts that we follow it because of love. Love fulfills the law.
Speaker 1:Well, the word I'm looking for, no.
Speaker 6:Here's the thing, greg.
Speaker 1:He's right, but the point I'm getting at is this what did Christ do for us? Christ fulfilled the law now. Now, before I go on, I want to cite greg. Is he? What greg said is 100% right. Nobody can do it. However, god made it, made a way for it to happen. The only difference is the righteousness that is obtained by the law was not obtained by us, but it was obtained by us vicariously, meaning that we have a substitute. The substitute is Christ. He, by his active obedience when he was here, obeyed the law perfectly. By putting our faith in him, the righteousness of Christ was imputed to our account. Therefore, we are looked upon and treated with god as having obeyed the law perfectly, even though we ourselves didn't do it. But we have been granted reconciliation because of our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is how salvation happens. We cannot go into heaven without righteousness.
Speaker 6:What is it? The encouraging servant says Jonathan Justified just as if I didn't sin.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. So the reality is so. Both of these things are true. No man is um a doer of the law to the point where he can be justified that's impossible but christ, those of us who are in christ, are justified, like like jeffrey always says. We are justified in him and we are. We have been made righteous, not that we inherently have any righteousness on our own, but because the righteousness of Christ was imputed to us. And this is what the gospel is all about trusting in Christ and in getting and securing, procuring that robe of righteousness that allows us to stand before God Justified. And this is what Paul is talking about In Galatians. Now it is time Tonight To close.
Speaker 1:I want to give everybody their last word. No sermons, give me your last words before we close. It's been a very good conversation and I enjoyed it very much. And it's central the last thing that Paulul says in verse nine, I'll repeat it again they. So, then, they which be of faith, are blessed with faithful abraham. On the same grounds, on this, on the same footing, for same reasons, for having faith and trust in the same God, in the same Lord and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. So, mariah, I heard you. So I won't hold you to that to the last word, so I'll go around. I'll start with Canaan. Oh man, I never got to you today, brother, sorry about that.
Speaker 7:Okay, good to listen. Day, brother, sorry about that.
Speaker 7:Okay, good to listen. I were blessed and it just points to the fact that we need to show ourselves approved, to be handling the word rightly, to invest our time in having fellowship with the Lord, in prayer and in studying and understanding His Word fully, so that we can minister and disciple each other, and to remember that Christ didn't have a huge group of people that he ministered to, but that he had a small group. So it'd be better to have a few that are strong, that can encourage and build up and edify the churches that they attend and these fellowship movements that we have, than it is for thousands of people who are sheep, who are lost, who cannot even tell you the basic core tenets of what they believe or why they believe it, or why they're atoned for and sanctified, and what christ truly accomplished. Um, so that's just something that we need to weigh on our minds and to move us in a direction that is fervent for the lord and for understanding his word let's go where.
Speaker 1:Brother man, I really I'm so sorry I missed you earlier. I I totally I got distracted. I'm sorry about that, brother, because I like to hear from you, but I won't forget next time, I promise you. I hope, brother jeffrey, you still there.
Speaker 3:Here brother.
Speaker 1:You still awake?
Speaker 3:huh, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I got a couple Z's in, but I'm good. Wow, Incredible thing tonight again. Jonathan, I think in the day and age that we're living in, it's important to remember and reinforce that we are saved by grace alone. Not through works, not through actions or plans or anything like that. It's grace by itself and that's all. Amen, the work that God desires to do in us. That is a good work, yes, but it does not save us Right. Let's just keep working for the Lord after we've settled our salvation issue and see what it is he wants to do through us. Joni and I, love you all, panel and everybody there. Good night, God bless you. Hopefully we'll see you tomorrow night. All right man. Love you all, panel and everybody there. Good night, God bless you. Hopefully we'll see you tomorrow night. All right man.
Speaker 1:Brother Greg, last word.
Speaker 5:I don't know, I don't know. Amen, that's a good last word.
Speaker 1:Amen, I'll take that, I'll take that Pass. Good to have you here, sister. Glad you came in and shared with us a little while it's been a while.
Speaker 4:Hey, I know you always go live really late when I'm asleep, but I'm not asleep at the moment. It's half four in the morning, I don't know why I'm not asleep. Last words examine yourselves in scripture to check that you're in a faith. Make sure that you're relying on the finished work of Christ and not yourself. When you're reading scripture, ask yourself these questions who is God? Who is man? What has God done for man? Who am I now that I am in Christ? That's all.
Speaker 1:I really enjoyed your contribution tonight. It was really good. It was a good point Appreciate it.
Speaker 4:Thank you, it was great to listen to you all.
Speaker 1:Sister Meg last word.
Speaker 2:Job is the first book of the Bible. It's the oldest book, and our friend Job saw the same thing that, though we may not be here and the Lord may take us whenever our purpose is fulfilled, we can all say these last words, for I know now that my Redeemer liveth and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold and not another, though my reins be consumed within me.
Speaker 1:Amen, sister, I love that chapter. Chapter 19, right. Yep, I love that One. Chapter 19, right.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:One of my faves.
Speaker 6:Yep, sister Candy. Last word I like Greg a lot. Where do you start? There's so much, but I'll say, since we're talking about Abraham in the faith and I'm going to start at 18 in Romans, chapter four so who would hope?
Speaker 6:Believed in hope that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body, now dead, when he was about 100 years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb. He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strong in his faith, giving glory to God and being fully persuaded. As we're trying to provoke. What he had promised he was able to perform and therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it is not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but for us also. The room shall be imputed if we believe on him.
Speaker 6:That raised up Jesus, our Lord, from the dead, who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification. I'm not going to go too much further, but therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord, jesus Christ, who is the propitiation for us, who is our redeemer who paid the ransom so that we do not have to suffer and take account for the guilt of sin and the wrath of God. That's not in the scripture that I was reading, but I had to throw that in there at the end because it was in conversation tonight and it's been right there you sneaky one never that just how it works.
Speaker 6:Just keep the faith. Man, just as Abraham. I guess, while I wanted to read that part is because, like Abraham, he was a hundred something years old and her womb was old too, so who would have thought that they would be able to bear a child? But because he trusted and believed in what God told him, it happened. So why would he not have faith? Why should we not have faith? Look at what he's done for us and what he's brought us through, and where he's brought us through and where we're at, oh my goodness, the places that he's going to take us.
Speaker 1:We're looking forward to it, sister. I appreciate the good word, like always.
Speaker 6:Love y'all so much.
Speaker 1:Brian, you're the last one, last word. My man, brian, you there.
Speaker 4:Has he fell asleep? I think he fell asleep Literally 20 to 5, where we are. That's funny.
Speaker 1:He's definitely snoring right now, yeah, for sure His last words were Z Z Z Z Z.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right now, yeah, for sure, his loss was was that, said, said, said said yes.
Speaker 1:Well, god bless everybody and be provoked and be persuaded until the next time. I look forward to talking to you all. God bless you all.
Speaker 2:You're great everybody god bless y'all love y'all. Talk to you later.