The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Hour of Temptation (Part 4 of 4)
What does it truly mean to be "the church" in today's world? This thought-provoking episode tackles one of Christianity's most fundamental questions – is the institutional church as we know it biblical, or have we misunderstood what scripture really teaches?
The conversation begins with a candid discussion about the challenges of studying Revelation, acknowledging it as "a monumental undertaking" requiring serious scholarship and spiritual discernment. But this quickly evolves into something more foundational: questioning whether our modern church structures align with biblical teaching.
One participant poses a question that resonates throughout: "If Christ is truly the head of the church, then in an institution, although Christ is present because he is being spoken about and taught, is he truly the head or is there a pastor or somebody that stands in?" This cuts to the heart of contemporary ecclesiology, challenging us to reconsider roles, structures, and authority within Christian communities.
The discussion also examines how theological debates often become counterproductive "spiritual boxing matches" where winning arguments takes precedence over discovering truth. Drawing from Titus 3:9, participants remind us to "avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."
Perhaps most powerfully, the conversation emphasizes approaching scripture with profound reverence. As one participant observes, "When we enter into these rooms, we're talking about the God of the universe... This is not something to be played with." This reverence manifests as humility about our understanding and recognition that the Bible contains wisdom "enough for umpteen lifetimes and we only get one."
Whether you're questioning institutional religion, seeking to understand scripture more deeply, or simply wanting thoughtful Christian conversation, this episode offers fresh perspectives on what it truly means to be the body of Christ in today's world.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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about it and that's the hard part about it, dealing with the error, and then, and then, uh, clarify what is being actually conveyed and uh, and, and you also know that, even if I do do it, there are going to be many things that I'm going to have to flat out, right, and say flat out, say that I'm not sure about this part, you know, cause there's, there's going to be that in the book of revelation, um, so, jonathan, with you saying that, what about everybody being involved?
Speaker 2:What about assigning certain people to do certain verses?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that's possible For a book like Revelation. I mean, if we do that, we could end up on every single verse in that book for a week.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, you normally do your testimonies on Tuesdays, right?
Speaker 4:Except for your order.
Speaker 2:Do we pick one day a week that we do the Revelation study?
Speaker 1:Let me think about it, because that really takes a lot. When I say that's a drain, that really is a drain, that's when I say that's a drain, that's that really is a drain. And because I've done it before on several occasions and this is it, just it's a, it's a monumental undertaking, if you're serious about it. You know. I mean, if you really, if you really want to be accurate, that book takes a lot of time and I think that broadly, you'd be painting. Even it takes a lot of time and I think that broadly, you'd be painting. Even it takes a lot just to get draw strokes, you know.
Speaker 1:So let me think about it, because it really is a hard undertaking. It really is, and it's a book that gets a lot of people aroused and excited in a lot of different ways, and so the conversation can just go bananas and I would want to try to keep it as controlled as possible, because it just elicits so much emotion to talk about and you guys know this. I mean it's one of those kind of things. But let me think about it and figure out a format that I think we can work within, a framework that we can work within.
Speaker 2:I think I would work within a framework that we can work within.
Speaker 1:I got my last question about a thing. I think I would definitely welcome everybody's involvement in it, but I just want to make sure that we can do it in a really cool way that doesn't dishonor our Lord.
Speaker 2:If you're going to do a church one where we was talking about that the other week um, by chance, like go kind of into the churches in revelation and break it down of like, because I know a lot of people look at it for, like meg was saying earlier back in the day, but if you go, I think I think that it kind of relates to today and the things that believers and non-believers and lukewarm people. I think it puts in a perspective of that type of situation today too.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm going to talk about that and I owe a tremendous amount of debt for me pursuing this to Brother Greg and Brian here Murphy. So these guys, um, two good brothers are really. You know, listen, I one thing that I really appreciate, um, is when is when you have good brothers and sisters who are willing to tell you something, even if they know it may go contrary to what your perspective may be, or that they know your perspective might be. So, to those gentlemen, I it is because of them that I'm working on this right now. It's not because there's not things that I can see in my mind to be consistent with what they're saying, but it's just one of those kind of studies that I've never been compelled to have because I was. I never challenged it and I never been around it being challenged.
Speaker 1:So I'm challenged and and I'm working on this, I'm actively working on this right now, and this may take me you know my estimate I'm giving myself a month to at the most, to really cover everything that I, that I want to cover to address my perspective on the church, because, you know, these guys sent me some things to listen to, which I did, to which I did, and the interesting thing is, I think that and I haven't told them this yet, but I think that the conclusions that I have heard, I think are solid conclusions I actually believe that the arguments in support of those conclusions can be stronger, of those conclusions can be stronger, and this is what I I'm dealing with. So, um, so anyway, they got my attention and I'm looking at it seriously and I'm and I've already started working on my, my notes and my outline for it. So we'll see how that goes is the question.
Speaker 3:I shouldn't say question the premise. Yeah, the premise. What are you trying? What are you seeking?
Speaker 1:What I'm trying to understand is the significance of, not the significance. So it's the church and I'm dealing with the, because what people talk about a lot, they talk about the, the um structure going to a building this is what you normally hear that, yeah, the institution. That's. That's actually what I put in my notes the institution. The church is as an institution. Is it biblical, is it unbiblical? I haven't got a formal title for it, but that's what we're dealing with the institutionalization of the church.
Speaker 3:There's one thing that Greg said that has stayed with me. I don't know if it was in this live or was somewhere else. I heard him speaking. I heard him speaking, but he says if Christ is truly the head of the church, then in an institution, although Christ is present because he is being spoken about and taught in the institution, is he truly the head or is there a pastor or somebody that stands in?
Speaker 1:I'm going to get into all of that. I want to try to do it tonight, but I'm going to get into all of it, megan, and it's really is really challenging. But even from what I know prior to this undertaking, the arguments for the institution that we know of, that we refer to today, the arguments aren't that strong, but I don't want to say too much until I get done with it, because I think that it's going to be, hopefully, an eye opening experience for all, all of you, as it is for me. But I will tell you at the outset a building is not it. It's not it. And at the same time, like when the SC says pastors are biblical yes, that's true, teachers are biblical, these elders are biblical. But the idea that they can only be attached to a external church, the issue is going to be is that something that is required? Is it? Is it unbiblical? If you don't, you know.
Speaker 1:So what I? What I start doing is I start asking all the questions, I write down all the questions that I want to answer and then I go forward with filling in. You know, I create this skeleton and I start putting meat on the bones and I go from there. But you know it's a challenge for me Because I've never it's been a long time since I've had a real solid challenge. That puts me into this mode of study, because all the points, everything that I need to look at, I know is there. All the points, everything that I need to look at, I know is there. But I just got to. You know, I want to put together something that's formidable and that is thorough and comprehensive, and you know, when I finish, it could take, you know, a week to go through and so, like Matt Ten says, it's hard to put together.
Speaker 1:It's going to be hard because I'm really going to want to be thorough on this one. And when it comes to the word of God, you want to be right, and one thing I don't do is trifle with God's word. I just don't do that and nobody should. I don't trifle with the word of God. So you know, when I do it, you'll know that I put my whole heart into it and that my goal will be to make it difficult to argue against, very difficult. And, um, you know I had a good conversation with Candy today and she told me a couple of things that that you know that, uh, she brought to my attention a response that I had about the church some time ago, and you know it really resonated with me and and so it just added more fervor to this pursuit. So I'm going to do it and it's going to be fun but meaningful.
Speaker 3:Let me ask you this, brother Jonathan, real quick. So when you're talking about, when I hear Catholics talk on this platform, or Orthodox in particular, because they have the church, quote unquote. Okay, one thing that I notice that happens a lot, it's when the church, the institution and the word of God have to be chosen between and I will tell you this when it comes to this, catholics and Orthodox will defend the church over what it says in the word of God. I hear it all the time. It becomes a space where you are no longer in the word. Now you're defending the institution, even when things don't align.
Speaker 3:It's like the institution has to be defended because it is the one true. It is the true church, but the church is not seen, through the eyes of these people, as the body of christ. In general, as the word of god says, the church is viewed as the institution. Outside of it, there is no salvation. The Holy Spirit sustains that church and the Pope is the vicar of Christ who stands in the place of Jesus on earth, as quote unquote infallible. And this is why Protestants did away with this from the very beginning.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's funny, because Protestants today despise their own Christian roots. You know, when you think about it like we talk about, you know if you study church history, we wouldn't be here today were it not for Luther and Calvin. These two guys changed everything. That's why they call it the reformation luther. When he put the 95 theses on the church, on the door of the church of wittenberg, the whole world changed, literally the whole world changed, and so and so, and that gave birth to Protestantism. But the people today who are Protestants, they don't know this. And so now these the names of these guys, like Augustine and Luther and Calvin, and and Boston and and Watts, and all these people and William Perkins, all these guys, most Christians don't even have any idea that everything that they believe today is because of these men who were diligent, astronomical theologians that God used To bring the true church Out of that Satanic church, out of that wicked organization that is referred to as the papacy. And so Again, when I deal with Thessalonians, this is going to come up A lot Church of Rome, the ecclesiastical Rome, which gave way or not gave way, which was birthed Out of the ashes Of the civil wrong.
Speaker 1:So when I read Revelation. For instance and I think I talked to you about this, meg, the other day the beast who had that mortal wound. He died, no Well, the one had the head that died and the other one grew in this place. The second one grew, came up. One grew in this place. The second one group came up. I believe the first one was the civil rome, political rome. I believe the head that grew up in this place was the ecclesiastical rome, the holy roman empire. So it went from the political roman empire, turned into the ecclesiastical Holy Roman Empire. But I'm not going to be baited into another conversation about that tonight, meg, so don't even try it, ignore.
Speaker 4:Roman.
Speaker 1:No, neither you know neither. So it is really. But I mean, if you, if you really like history, you know, I know Jeffrey does and I do too, so there's a lot there. But anyway, let me go ahead and get through the closeout tonight because, like I said, I have to get up in the morning.
Speaker 3:Are you going on tomorrow?
Speaker 1:Tomorrow I may not. And here's the reason why because Brother Jeffrey is coming out here. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, you and.
Speaker 3:Jeffrey can go live together. It would be cool.
Speaker 1:That's why I said I don't know, because if that happens, then that's how we'll do it, you know, and so he's coming out here. So we're going to, we're going to visit with him and his wife and hopefully, depending on what time they get here, they will probably do it. We'll probably go live together and be on camera together, so that'll be fun, all right. So let's go with the last words. So, sister Candy, last word for tonight.
Speaker 2:We bounced from tonight so much. What's that I said we went from so many different things tonight we'd bounce just say whatever it can be, anything it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2:I'm digging on this. Second corinthians, um, I'm gonna start at chapter one, verse three, and it's let's be god, even a father, our lord jesus christ, the father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comfort us in all of our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in trouble by the comfort, wherewith we ourselves are comforted, of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer, or whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation. So, with that being said, I got one more thing, and this is out of my NIV teen study Bible I've had since 2002.
Speaker 2:But it says our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good in order that they provide for daily necessities of us that get into these lives and hear these things. Like Meg, I sensed it had you upset because I feel I feel you. We get in these lives and we hear all this nonsense and we know it's not right, but it's like talking to the wall if we say anything and then it's like they want to pick a fight with us. Prove this, prove that we can prove it and we do with scripture. How else we supposed to do it, but with the truth? But I'm gonna go to titus 3, verse 9. But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Warn a divisive person once and then warn him a second time. And it says warning and I'm assuming. For me that would be telling the truth once, telling the truth twice After that. Have nothing to do with them. Avoid them. The rest is on them and their judgment day.
Speaker 2:Amen, sister, and you may be sure that such a man is on them and their judgment day Amen sister, and you may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful and he is already self-condemned, as we know. So, with that being said, I love all y'all. I loved tonight. It was awesome, meg, thanks for bringing up what you brought up, because, yeah, I like that Meg last word yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:All right Meg last word.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm going to do a little confession here. Uh-oh, I have to confess that I get infuriated when I hear this type of stuff nonsense and I will dig until the ends of the earth to try to prove that what people are saying are nonsense. And I learn a lot in the process and it makes my faith even stronger. But the thing about for me is is it's not about being right, it's about letting God be true and every man a liar. And I don't mind going in to the, to the battle zone, I don't, and I will stand, and and and I, I tell, I tell Lord.
Speaker 3:All the time I said Lord, thank you so much for, for the gift of long suffering, cause if I'm, if I'm in a space where I'm getting berated, I'm still going to stand and I'm not going to lose my cool. I'm going to let the fruits of the spirit show through me, because somebody else is going to get angry before I do. And I think I thank the Lord for those moments that I do have to allow the Holy Spirit to continue to produce those fruits in me. But I'm not going to lie. Sometimes I look for it Because when I hear it and I sit. I can only sit for so long until I'm going to go challenge what it is, and I don't know. I shouldn't do that. I know I understand telling people the truth. I get it, but I don't know I. I please y'all continue to pray for me, because it's hard, because I love the Lord so much I can't even.
Speaker 1:I told you several times because it is hard for me to turn my phone on at any point and not see you on somebody's live. I said this and I'm probably embellishing a little bit, but you're out there a lot. My point is this If you calculate the number, the amount of time that you spend on these useless lives where all they do is bicker and fight and whatever, and you use that time, not even that time. And you use that time, not even that time if you use half of that time to do your own study in the word of God, to improve your own understanding because we can always improve To sharpen your understanding of God's word, to sharpen your understanding of establishing consistency in the word of God throughout the Bible, and you can use the other half of that time to do your own and to do your own lives. And this is what I've been trying to encourage people to do, and I said this. I said this a week or so ago, the.
Speaker 1:The most bittersweet thing that can happen to me, the sweet part, is everybody here taking what we are learning here and how we're doing things here, building upon that, making it better and doing your own lives, and we spread it out. That's the sweet part. The bitter part is if we're not in the same lives all the time. But what's more important? To cover the landscape and to have the gospel go out and to win souls for christ however we can, to put the word of god out there, to put it out there and there are so many solid believing christians that I know, even right here on this panel, that if we put the time in into into into god's word and sharpening and honing in our understanding, and we put that time in, as opposed to spending time in these spiritual boxing matches, which is all they are, just Christian UFC fights, you know, and I just think your time can be better used and better served.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I'm not condemning you doing it. I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying I see the benefit of some of our gifts not being used to the fullest potential that they could be being used to the fullest potential that they could be, because fighting with these people that have no intention of changing their minds, that are only out there trying to get likes and whatever else they're trying to get, that's all that really matters. Conveying the Lord's truth is not really what matters to these people. What really matters for most of them is just being right, winning an argument, even if the argument that they won they didn't win it. We're using truth. You can win an argument and be completely wrong. You know so anyway. But I just want to encourage you for that, meg, because you're one of those people that has the gift of gab.
Speaker 2:Use it for your god's glory, if I could say something about what you just said. And and that is so true. They come in there and they, they, even if they don't even have to win it, they just want to ruffle someone's feathers and get them out of character.
Speaker 1:That's all it is. That's all it is. They want to obsess you and go see, see, you must be wrong and this, that and the other, and it may not be true, but that's how people are. It's all just a silly, silly thing and I learned that early on and I just didn't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I got no interest in that anymore. Zero, zero interest.
Speaker 4:Brother Jay. Last word, it's been very informative tonight and listening to other points of view that's the way I run my life see what their points of view are. We may disagree on something, on a particular scripture, but that's fine, we're allowed to disagree and the thing is that we can keep open minded about certain scriptures or whatever. But I really I love this Bible study. It means a lot to me so. But I love this Bible study. You know it means a lot to me so. But I appreciate the Bible study. But good night everyone. I'm going to go to sleep, brother. Thank you, brother, all right.
Speaker 1:Sister Mariah last word.
Speaker 6:I love this. I did want to speak a little bit more on the lukewarm, because I don't really believe that there could be a lukewarm Christian in this sense. I feel like it's either you're saved or you're not saved. And when we're reading a little bit further into it in 16, where it goes on to give the description of how they are, it doesn't sound like a person that is saved. But I am under the weather right now.
Speaker 6:So, I love you guys and I appreciate the conversation. Hopefully I'm better soon and I could add more to it.
Speaker 1:You always do, sister, so get ready or take care of yourself. Get yourself together. We understand for sure. Get better, brother Brian Murphy, we didn't get to say too much tonight, but I'm glad you made it nonetheless. No, man.
Speaker 7:It was a blessing listening to everybody. The only thing I would like to say is I mean mean we all love sister meg so much and her passion. Um, the only advice I can give is you know, I had to learn over the years that, no matter what the topic was, brother jonathan knows. I mean you go through stages, you go through learning the doctrines of grace and you have to do those battles and then end times, and this year it's been the church for me. Next year it'll be something else.
Speaker 7:But what we learn is our theology has to become our daily practice. We cannot play the role of the holy spirit. All we can do is share the truth with people and god has to do what he does, because we believe that he's sovereign and only he can save. So when you have the discernment and you start seeing pushback that they're not willing to learn or listen, don't even be in the life, don't even listen, because all it's going to do is confuse you and aggravate you. We'll get tied in because all of us will get in our own flesh. So, yeah, just don't, don't bother with it. Sister, yeah, you're wonderful to listen to and we love hearing you. And, jonathan, I can't wait to hear you talk about the church, because I'm going to learn a lot from you, because I know how you study.
Speaker 1:Well, I hope I don't disappoint when I get there, because you know it's always scary to take these deep dives in a lot of ways, because it's been a while since I had one like this big. So it's a big one, but you and Greg really got me thinking about a lot of things, man, and so you got me going, really got me going. So I appreciate the fellowship that we have and the talks that we have, and I'll make sure that you have and the talks that we have, and you know, and I'll make sure that you know when I'm ready to go, sister Lisa, last word.
Speaker 5:This was another really good live for me. I like I love hearing all the stuff that we we spoke about tonight, even though it seemed like it went all over the place, but it was so good. The one thing I'll say is I did not enjoy debating with these people this week. So more power to you guys who really do enjoy that. I did not. I found it. Really do enjoy that. I did not. I found it. I felt like my flesh maybe I'm too weak in my flesh still at this point and my walk that I really I just I felt like these people that I'm looking at were my adversaries and even though I used the word, it just was not a good feeling. They weren't hearing it. I think Star Tide made a comment earlier that said it's like debating color with the blind. You know it was good, right, and so I'm just learning that.
Speaker 5:I don't want to watch false doctrine Like. I'm honing in on who believes what, and I don't wish anybody harm. I'm going to pray for everyone. I pray for all of us, that we all and I've been really praying hard that the Holy Spirit that dwells in us brings us all to one understanding, and the rest you know. We've just got to leave it alone. I mean, we can't show them, they can't see it and it's not a fun place to be for me.
Speaker 5:Meg, I'd like to just encourage you, because you are, you're so knowledgeable and you do speak so well. I would encourage you to do a teaching and do your own live and that way you can be in control and you can just, you can shut down the false stuff and, you know, not in an angry way, you just don't have to show it. I've said this to Jonathan it's I don't enjoy when we somebody gets up here on the panel who is completely opposite to us all, because it confuses me and it messes with my mind. So I don't know. I just wish you all all the blessings in the world and you know I encourage Meg. I think she's a phenomenal speaker. And so, and Mariah, oh my goodness, you too. Sister, candy girl, yeah, I'm the one not with the gift of gab, but I will be your cheerleaders and in the back, and you know, mute, not the comments if you want me to, but just be blessed everybody. We got to hang in there.
Speaker 3:Sister Lisa, thank you. I. I just, I still have to get there. I just you, you got it, I know, but I think it's brother johnson. It's the same thing, like how he feels and just like he says he getting nervous, you know what I mean. It's like you don't realize that. Not to say anybody else doesn't, but when the word of God is taken seriously, to go in front of other people and speak, it is, it is, it's a I don't want to say it's a burden, but it is. It's the exact opposite in the way I'm trying to say it, meaning that this is for real.
Speaker 3:When we enter into these rooms, we're talking about the God of the universe. Here we're talking. This is him, this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about, you know, a some weak, you know incapable, weak, you know incapable changing God. This is God Almighty, and the reverence that I have is, for me personally, is that of Jonathan's. It's not nothing to be played with, and so when I go into these rooms, my mind is always set on the exact same thing. Are we joking here? When I go into these rooms, my my mind is always set on the exact same thing, are we? Are we joking here. Have people not stopped for a moment? And and whatever they're speaking about and understanding that we are talking about God almighty here. It's not something that you know. To get angry with your brothers and sisters because everybody's still learning and to think that you have come to the full knowledge is beyond me. It won't happen. These 66 books, the word of God that we hold in our hand, is enough for umpteen lifetimes and we only get one. Yep, you know.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody times and we only get one. Yep, you know well, all right everybody it's an actually.
Speaker 2:I want to piggyback off of meg right quick. It's an honor, actually, meg. It's an honor to even know the truth. It's a privilege to be able to speak and hear the truth, see the truth, for that matter too. So, yeah, I feel you, I definitely feel you on that. But first, before we go, jonathan, today is somebody's birthday on the panel oh God, who. It's Lisa, your child.
Speaker 6:Happy birthday. Is it your birthday? It is. Thank you. Thank you Happy birthday.
Speaker 5:Is it your birthday? It is. Thank you. Thank you Happy birthday sister. Thanks, I made it another year around the sun. Thank you, lord. Happy birthday.
Speaker 1:Happy birthday.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you all I was going to do it earlier, but I got caught up in everything else going on.
Speaker 1:Happy birthday, sister.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much.
Speaker 5:Thank you. What a way to spend my birthday with y'all. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:No thank you for spending your birthday with us.
Speaker 3:It's the least of a form of leave, because it's a birthday.
Speaker 4:So you guys.
Speaker 1:What did Meg? Say what's that?
Speaker 2:What did Meg just say? What was your last statement, meg?
Speaker 3:wanted to pray over sister lisa for her birthday yeah, I thought she said something.
Speaker 5:I would love that. That would be, oh thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you well, dear heavenly father, lord god, I just thank you for sister lisa, just thank you for Sister Lisa. I thank you for the moment in time, lord God, that you created her and knew her so intimately to deliver her to us, lord, where she is with us today. Lord God, I thank you that in the days ahead and over this next year, that you just continue to reveal yourself to her in a mighty way as she continues to seek you. Lord Laura, I pray blessings over Sister Lisa, lord God, and I ask that in this moment, heavenly Father, that you just continue to reveal your truth to her heart, mind, body and soul.
Speaker 3:Lord God, I just thank you for the woman of God that she is. Lord, I thank you for how she gathers with us and gives us a lot of encouragement and a lot of knowledge from what she has lord, and I thank you for her heart. Lord, I thank you for her gentle spirit. But yet, this instinct of her to continue to stand on your word, which is true, lord god, I bless, I ask that you just bless her all the days of her life, lord god, and bless her as she's coming and as she's going. Lord, god and I, just we all love her and I thank you for this birthday that you have given her. In Jesus' mighty name, I pray, amen, amen.
Speaker 4:Amen, oh, my God.
Speaker 2:And, with that being said, be provoked.
Speaker 5:And be persuaded, thank you all so much You're welcome sister.
Speaker 6:Lisa Happy birthday.
Speaker 2:I love you so much. Have a good night. Good night.