The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Faith PREVAILS, Torah FAILS! (Part 1 of 4)
Why do Christians still struggle with adding works to grace? After 2,000 years, Paul's letter to the Galatians remains startlingly relevant for believers today.
We tackle Galatians 5:5-12, where Paul delivers his most passionate defense of justification by faith alone. His message cuts through religious confusion with laser precision: "No flesh shall be justified by works of the law." This powerful doctrine sparked the Protestant Reformation and remains the bedrock of authentic Christian faith.
Our panel discussion explores why this simple truth meets such resistance among believers. Is it unbelief? Fear of surrendering control? Or what one participant calls the "twilight delusion" – that murky space where Christians mix Old Testament law-keeping with New Testament grace?
The consequences couldn't be more serious. Paul warns that introducing even "a little leaven leavens the whole lump." When we add requirements to salvation – whether dietary restrictions, Sabbath observance, or particular spiritual experiences – we fundamentally distort the gospel message.
Perhaps most striking is how justification by faith creates the ultimate level playing field. No one has anything to offer God – not moral achievements, religious devotion, or personal sacrifice. This complete dismantling of human merit is both terrifying and ultimately liberating.
Join us as we examine what it truly means to live by faith working through love rather than by religious obligation. Discover why good works flow from salvation rather than leading to it, and why regeneration – not regulation – produces genuine spiritual transformation.
Whether you're wrestling with legalism, helping others understand grace, or simply seeking deeper theological grounding, this episode offers clarity on Christianity's most powerful, yet frequently misunderstood, doctrine.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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Christians. How are we going tonight? Tonight going to continue the exposition on the book of Galatians as we round out the last section of the book. Actually, we have probably a chapter and a half to go, and tonight I'm going to be dealing with Galatians, chapter 5, verses 5 through 12, which will be a more of an extended section of the scripture, but it needs to go together because it expresses a complete, a more complete and a comprehensive train of thought that the apostle is going through. So I'm going to do that Now.
Speaker 1:Last night, I have to say, we had a little bit of a spirited conversation regarding some elements that are of an eschatological nature, and it was fun. It was more of a free form kind of a conversation about things that have been on the minds of various of the brethren, and I enjoyed it and I may make that type of a discussion more of a habit for us to do perhaps once a week. I think it'll be a good thing to do, I think it'll be a fruitful thing to do, as long as the conversation can be managed with decorum, as we often do, as we usually do here. So, anyway, I'm going to start in the book of Galatians, chapter 5. I'm going to begin by reading Galatians 5, verses 5 through 12. It begins in verse 5.
Speaker 1:In verse 5. For we, through the Spirit, wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything, neither does uncircumcision, but faith which works by love. You did run well, so who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion Comes not of him that calls you A little leaven, leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, through the Lord, that you will be none otherwise minded. But he that troubles you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he may be. And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? Then, is the offense of the crossed ceased? I would that they were even cut off. Which trouble you? Which trouble you? So Paul continues in keeping with the keeping of the law.
Speaker 1:He clearly makes the case that to seek salvation by law keeping, it is impossible to mix law keeping and grace as a means of being justified, as a means of obtaining and procuring righteousness that only comes by way of Christ, which can only be accessed by faith and not by law. This is his whole argument. This is his whole argument and, oddly enough, and strangely enough. This argument continues to this very day, in spite of the fact that we have this very epistle written to the Galatians in our presence and at our fingertips so that we can understand this.
Speaker 1:And yet you find so many Christians, those who call themselves Christians, still running around Trying to bind the consciences of men To obey certain and particular laws that they feel. However they come to that conclusion you must obey it In order to add to the cross, and this cannot be done, and the apostle goes through great pains to make people, to make the Galatian church, understand this. And we belong to that same body of Christ. If we are justified by faith, if we believe by faith, it must adhere to these things. But when a person tells you if you don't obey the Torah, you're going to hell. If you eat these certain foods, you're going to hell. If you don't eat or don't go to this or that church, you're going to hell. If you haven't been baptized in water, you're going to hell.
Speaker 1:If you haven't been baptized by what we say is a baptism of the Holy Spirit and is what we say is evidence of your salvation, well, you're going to hell. Paul is saying not just is it impossible for you to be justified by the works of the law, he is making it clear that no man can be justified by any works of any law. Forgive the repetition, but the repetition is a necessity, as frequency has a way to make these things sink into our brains and drip down into our hearts that are so prone to seek credit for works that we've done and we turn the debt upon God to adhere to what it is that we believe salvation and access to him should be Not what he's prescribed but what we believe it should be. Not what he's prescribed but what we believe it should be. And this is what is wrong with modern day Christianity. Today, human effort must be a contributing factor to salvation for men to believe it is genuine.
Speaker 1:Paul makes a different argument. He makes the case that it is impossible Human effort, in no way form or fashion, no way in intensity or in degree or in quantity can any work of any law be a contributing factor, of any law be a contributing factor. But what Paul also does is that he says, listen, if you are going to be in debt to God by keeping even a single law, you're in debt to God for obedience to the whole law. So even when a person comes to you and says, listen if you eat meat, to the whole law. So even when a person comes to you and says, listen, if you eat meat, or if you don't worship on Saturday or Sunday or whatever, and go to this or that church, you're going to go to hell, you're going to perish. But here's the thing Paul says that if you are going to Require obedience to any law, even if it is only just observing worship on saturday or sunday or not eating meat, for example, he says even if you requiring one of these things and binding that on the conscience of people by whom you are trying to convince they must do these things, then you must bind them to the whole law. You can't be selective about which pieces of the law or which part of a law that you made up. You can't just offer up this in part. You take the law as a whole or you don't take it at all. That's how it works. You can't simply pick and choose which laws need to be bound on the consciences of men.
Speaker 1:Paul says here in Galatians 2.16, and this is what I was referring to when I said, to forgive my repetition. In verse 16 he says knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in jesus christ. Even we have believed in christ, jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law. The apostle says for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. No flesh Not you, not me, not the Pope, not the Mormons, not the Muslims, not anybody no flesh shall be justified by any works of law, and that is of any law. And if you're bound to any law, you are bound to the whole law. So this is where we are.
Speaker 1:With that being said, I want to open up, before I get into the passages, the verses that I just read. I want to open it up to the good folks on the panel who have joined me, the verses that I just read. I want to open it up to the Good folks On the panel who have joined me To get your opening remarks On this section, and I want to ask that you address the things that are contained in this section, if you can. If not, the overall idea of what is being expressed Is certainly fine to comment on, but I want to get everybody's opening remarks, so I'll start with you, sister Candy opening remarks. All right, let's move on to Meg Opening remarks.
Speaker 2:Sister, I can officially say the law has been beaten out of me. We're almost there, but, um, no, yeah, I, I think I think the verse in chapter two, uh, galatians, chapter two, 16, is a good rhetoric to open for every night. Um, because we see in that verse also that it is the faith of Christ, it is everything that he did, nothing of what we did, nothing we can ever do, and that's why we, as believers, can rest in our salvation, knowing that, you know, our faith is we do things because we are saved, not to be saved.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:There's a there's a large difference in what those mean, and so by any justification just like you said, Brother Jonathan no flesh will be justified, and I think that's really important to understand that we are now in the spirit and the flesh is enmity. It always has been enmity and it always will be enmity to God.
Speaker 1:So, amen, sister, appreciate that Brother for knowledge. I'm glad you can make it my friend. And uh, would you care to share your opening remarks? I would love to hear it.
Speaker 3:Sure, um, thanks for inviting me up. Uh, I don't think I have anything profound so much to say. You kind of nailed it in your opening remark. But really, for me, this reminds me of an experience that I had where God basically told me not in words or anything, but just in that spiritual knowing basically said to me that he could have chose somebody else other than me with the same amount of I don't even know what the word is but without any sweat, basically, and it basically just destroyed everything that I thought I could offer him, because it made me realize that there's nothing I can offer him, and it's the ultimate leveling of the playing field, right, nobody has anything to offer him, even our hardest, you know, most successful works. You know, like, what our whole society is based on is a meritocracy, right, this is what we understand, since we're little children.
Speaker 3:Um, that's completely shattered, uh, by by grace and by by this chapter right here. So you know it's, it's a paradigm um shift, and I think it takes time for people to realize it and and I didn't realize it until I had that experience and it's both. It was terrifying at first, but then, as I pondered on it and understood it, it's the most glorious. What do you call it? It's the most glorious way for God to bestow grace upon a people that's conceivable. There's no greater way to conceive of it than to that these people had nothing that they could offer, and so he gives them everything in return.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother. Thank you for those open remarks. Appreciate it. Appreciate it, Brother Brian. How are you doing tonight, brother?
Speaker 6:I'm doing all right, my brother, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing all right, man. Having you here makes it all all the better.
Speaker 6:Amen, amen, god is good. One thing I would say on this is I'm right, in agreement with you. I hear, what's that? Romans, galatians 2.8, ephesians 2.8? It's no long, it's of grace, not of works, lest we would have something to boast about it. We can't mix that. You know what I mean. I believe that was Sister May that sat back and said that it's all of him. You know he did it. It was grace, right, and I know a lot of times we use that definition of grace, of unmerited favor, of grace of unmerited favor. But I, as you all, you all always know, I always lean towards that, uh, that, that, uh, divine influence upon the heart and this expression in and through our, our life. You know, amen, right, it's his influence. Amen, god is good. God is good. What would we do without him? It allows me to go back to psalm. He said if I would mark iniquity, if he would mark iniquity, who?
Speaker 6:could stand glory to god. So yeah, so, so yeah, and yeah, that's what sister meg said. She said uh, what was that?
Speaker 1:she said she said something about uh, uh, and I just had it well, you can bring it back whenever you get, whenever it comes back to you well, basically, to make make it, make it simple.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that's what it was. The stuff that we do, we're not doing it to get saved, we're doing it because we are saved. Glory to God.
Speaker 1:So yeah, which is totally consistent with where you were in Ephesians 2.8, because in verse 10 it says we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works.
Speaker 8:Come on, come on, come on.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. So, yeah, I'm right with you there, brother. Right with you, Amen, Brother Jeffrey, man of God. Opening remarks.
Speaker 5:Well, you know, I just don't want to rehash whatever else says. But you know just something that's been in my mind ever since we've been talking about this over the last few days. You know it's what drove Martin Luther to realize the error of what he believed and what he should believe, when he realized that the just shall live by faith. Right, and that verse in Habakkuk and repeated, I believe, in Romans. To me that's it in a nutshell the just shall live by faith, not by anything else, not by law, by faith by faith.
Speaker 1:He quoted Habakkuk 2, verse 4, and here's the thing most Christians don't even realize that it is that verse, coupled with Galatians 2, verse 16, because this is what paul is addressing, but this is what martin luther used to start the reformation yeah and that is what brought, that is what gave birth to protestantism.
Speaker 1:So everyone who's a protestant and not a a Catholic owes a singular debt to this man for bringing this to the forefront. And this is in the 1500s. But as you're being a history buff, I'm sure you know what this is about. But this is the most powerful doctrine in the Bible Justification by faith. Right, it is the most powerful doctrine, the most poignant doctrine in the entire Bible. Yep, because it's the point of the whole Bible. It's the whole point.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, it really comes down to. You know, I guess I'm more of a simplifier when it comes to discussing things rather than an expander, but it just comes down to the basic. I mean the basic is that God's grace, I mean. But God, by His grace, gives us faith and by that faith we are saved, we are redeemed, and you know, that's the essence of the Bible deemed, and that's the essence of the Bible. And faith is the substance of things not seen, the hope for which we hope for. But the thing is to me it's faith. I mean, it's like it says in 1 Corinthians 13. It's faith, hope and love.
Speaker 5:I, the King James, says charity, but I don't like that. Faith, hope and love. And the thing is we have all three and the greatest is love, because love exemplifies what Christ is all about, what he taught us, if we love others, like I love that guy on the provocateur thing he came on there, he was Candy, if you're listening. He was going at Candy about something. He called himself a Christian Catholic saint something or other. Yeah, yeah, and I just couldn't resist it. I just kind of jumped in there and said you know, brother, this is not right what you're saying, but I didn't feel angry at him, I just felt, you know, I just said, look, this is the truth. You need to accept the truth, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing People have. They establish in their own minds what their truth is and they'll tell you well, I did accept the truth. You have the problem not understanding it. Right, they think they all got it. But see, like Paul says, they frustrate the grace of God by coming to these conclusions. But Paul says that this I mean Paul. Well, we'll get to some of his words later, but he is adamant about the seriousness of this situation, adding to the law God's word.
Speaker 4:Opening remarks. Brother, yeah, keeping it simple with what you were reading there, paul is pretty much talking about the same problems that the church is facing today and the one that is tempting them or persuading them to turn away from the faith and grace saving them. Only, it's simple, it is the devil himself and the Antichrist spirit that is in those people, trying to get them to turn them away from grace and to keep their focus on the law. That is who's persuading them. And he's also foreshadowing what is going to happen to those people who are doing that. They're going to pay the penalty in hell when they're cast out in revelations 20. I mean, it's that simple. It's what he's explaining there to him. He's foreshadowing what's happening in revelation. He's also foreshadowing there what John is telling the churches there, especially Laodicea You're either cold or you're hot.
Speaker 4:You're either saved by grace or you're locked on and a slave to the law. Right, that's what he's telling you in those verses. I mean it's explained in the whole Bible there. People are blind and they don't see it. They want to latch on to that law and say look at what I've done, look what I've done. No, you didn't do anything. The man on the cross did everything for you. You didn't do nothing. You should humble yourself before him and be thankful for what he did.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's telling the truth, brother. That's it right there.
Speaker 7:Sister Angie opening remarks.
Speaker 4:Hello everyone, hello sister.
Speaker 7:God bless you all. I'm so happy to be here tonight. Um, you know, brother, I mean this, this. I'm like with maya, you know we, we understand it, but we do run into people and I and I just posted something today. It's only jesus saves. You know, like it's a faith in grace, um, grace, your faith, but uh, um, you're still seeing a lot of this. If you want to be saved from judgment, it's like, wait a minute, there's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. So you're seeing, really, it's just like a modern day kind of tarababble, where everybody is trying to do it on their own human efforts and own human intent by adding works to it, when you know what. And that does go to the law, because it's like they use the word obedience that goes hand in hand when they're and then they bring law into it and it's hang on a second, wait a minute. If y'all have not read and I've please read Galatians, if not, reread it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it's my genuine hope to like what Meg said earlier about you know, getting beat over the head with this whole understanding. But see, the beauty of that is is that, you know, it's my hope that when people, especially those who have been with me on this process through this book, that when it's one of those kinds of things where you can knock down, you can say, okay, I got a really good grasp on what Paul was saying in Galatians. I understand justification by faith, and so when somebody brings up this message, you know, or bring up this idea or something contrary to it, everybody here is going to be able to go oh man, we went through this, we spent several weeks on this whole thing and it was so overwhelming and it was so much repetition and understanding the distinction between law keeping and justification in my faith that now I think I got a firm grasp on it.
Speaker 7:Yeah, brother, you know what I want to say something about that, about the repetition thing, because it's so important. Because if you look all through scripture, it's a repetitive message. Why do you think it is like that? Because we needed it. We need to go over and over again and even if you go through something in your life, you will also read the same verses and then find something new in it as you're growing in Christ, and then find something new in it as you're growing in Christ. So I just, you know, thank you, brother, for just pounding it in our heads so that it just saturates our hearts like fully, so that we won't have no questions about it. And if someone does come up to us with questions, we know exactly what to tell them.
Speaker 1:Know exactly where to go. Jeffrey, encouraging servant, my brother here who's in town to come hang out with his boy.
Speaker 8:And I'm so excited. I can't hardly wait for tomorrow. Man, I'd have been there tonight if we'd have gotten here sooner. But anyway, one of the things that I've been looking at here, jonathan, about this, I've been asking God this. I've been asking God, lord, why are you having Jonathan and working through Jonathan so much about the message of grace. And the answer came back to me pretty quickly. He said because people are missing my grace. I told the apostle Paul my grace is sufficient for you. And he said, jeffrey, who have you been encouraging? Who have you been serving with my message of grace? And, boy, that hit me right between the eyes like a fist Right. And so one of the things I look forward to discussing with you tomorrow is and with everybody in the panel, because I need help with this right now, folks, I need to do a better job of communicating that grace to the people who are that God has brought into my life right now.
Speaker 8:Okay, because grace is free. Well, it's not free, but I mean we can't pay for it with work, we can't earn it. We can't do anything other than to receive it. Jonathan, I am of the mind now I won't go into a sermon here, but I'm of the mind that the simplicity of the gospel and the simplicity of grace simply is just too much for some people to put their mind around. They don't want to do it. They want it to be something more complicated or more difficult than what it is, and it's not. It's simply grace alone are we saved.
Speaker 8:Thank God, jonathan. We can't lose our salvation. But you know why? Because if we could lose it, we would, every last one of us. If we could lose our salvation, we would. But I've been bought and paid for by the blood of Christ and my name is written into the Lamb's book of life, not with ink, but with the blood of Jesus himself, just like all of you have out there. Your name is also written in that book, in the blood of Jesus. That blood won't fade, it won't pop off the page After eternity passes. It's still going to be there. Amen, brother. So, anyway, that's all I want to say tonight. I'm looking forward to the study. Let's get into this. Love you guys and, uh, we'll talk soon.
Speaker 2:Bye so sister, megan and brian, then I'll get into, I'll get into the text so I wanted to bring up something that has to do with what we're talking about, but we have 1.3 billion people who are in the Catholic faith, who believe Catechism 2010.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read it to you guys and I want you to no, no, no, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. My question is this. My question is this then what is it? Do you think, after completing this and seeing everything that has been discussed, what is it that's still in the believer or the Christian that they can't wrap their minds around this concept? I'm really interested to try to understand from the other perspective as to why this can't be understood I believe I.
Speaker 1:I believe it's, it's. It's simple unbelief. I believe it's simple unbelief. I mean, see, the thing about it is and it's not that, and it's not that these folks who hold on to this don't believe what we understand about grace and whatever, because Paul taught these people that and Paul explained that you guys were doing all right from the beginning, and then you became persuaded through other folks to introduce into this grace this leaven which is to be circumcised, and so they were convinced to believe that there was something more that was needed that Paul had not conveyed. And so it comes down to something very simple. It is just simple, basic unbelief. This is what my father, my real father, used to always tell me. People's problem with this is pure and simple unbelief. This is why you always hear me say unbelieving Christians, do you think fear plays a role? I think fear plays a huge role, but you know this what happens is, if the fear plays a role, how does a man adding to the grace make it less fearful?
Speaker 1:Because he no longer has to exercise trust yeah, and that you could very well be right, brother. You could very well be right. That could be a part of it, because and what I'm saying is not, it's not hard and fast there's I'm sure there are many elements in it and it may be different a variety of elements that affect different people, but what the problem is, as we all can agree, regardless, the outcome Is going to always be the same Fallen from grace. As Paul mentioned in verse 4, if you frustrate the grace of God by introducing a little leaven, it will leaven the whole lump and it will become, it will pollute you to the point where you realize that there was something that you hoped you had, that you never had, because you cannot have Christ and law for salvation. It is an absolute impossibility, absolute impossibility.
Speaker 1:So, meg, the short answer to me and it's not the only answer, I'm sure there are many things that can be added to it answer to me, and it's not the only answer. I'm sure there are many things that can be added to it, but the reality is, the reasons or the motives, at the end of the day, won't really matter. What matters is obedience to justification by faith, which makes your life a lot easier, which makes your life a lot easier, and it removes and it should cast out all fear, in addressing what Brother Fornone was saying. But I believe that that's really a good take, that it introduces fear because you're trusting in man or trusting in yourself and not trusting solely in the sovereignty of God. And this is what men don't want to let go of. They want their wills to dictate what the outcomes in their own life is, and that is not allowed. Brother Brian, go ahead. You were going to say something, brother.
Speaker 6:In the beginning I was just Sister Meg was trying to get your attention, so that's what I was trying to do. But since I'm here, this topic right here, I began to focus on it and this idea had came, and the idea is the twilight delusion. The twilight delusion is like you know, when you got the daytime it's in the day, but then when you got nighttime, it's nighttime. But in between that, you know, and I would refer like, the nighttime would be the Old Testament, keeping the law, the daytime would refer to grace. But sometimes right in between that, we get confused, we start mixing. We start mixing the Old Testament and New Testament because we struggle with looking at the Old Testament in light of the New Right, and so that's where the struggle actually begins at. We struggle in that area and we had to ask the Lord to help us see the Old Testament in the light of the New. And we had to ask the Lord to help us see the Old Testament in the light of the new because if we don't, my grandmother as best for you to stand anew, because because of you you don't want to get all trapped up in the Old Testament, and she made me read a new testament for years before I even went to the old. So so, so, so, yeah, that's, that's that's what I really believe.
Speaker 6:I know you say a doubt and unbelief, but really I believe it even goes all the way into some people when you don't really dig into that. They was first called Christians and Antioch. Well, why was they first called Christians and Antioch? And a lot of people haven't really dug in and realized what was the answer is to that. They start out with the Jewish community and so, as the Christian began to grow and we had to have a distinction. So what was the answer?
Speaker 1:I think we lost a brother.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I went out for a second. So what they began to do was they had to make a distinction, because we began Jewish, but it began to be a distinction. So what will I call these people that are not law keepers, but that's how they started. So they first was called Christians of Antioch, and that's why a lot of people don't understand why we call Christians, because they ain't too lazy to really go and dig into that. So, yes, we're supposed to be called Christians, but you got to dig into a why? Amen, glory to God. God bless you, god bless everybody, amen.
Speaker 1:All right Candy. Go ahead your opening remarks. I'll come back to you, sister.
Speaker 9:You're good. Can you hear me? Yep, fine, well, I'm on my new little microphone, so we're going to test her out tonight, but based off what everybody's saying in our opening statement, I'm going to go. It has to do with regeneration, and the regeneration is where God graciously turns our heart to stone into a viable flesh that responds to the spiritual stimuli. So, therefore, we rely on the spirit, we don't rely on the flesh, which flesh works through the self-effort, but we don't do self-effort anymore. We rely on God and his spirit to work in us.
Speaker 9:Faith, working through love, is the good works and the product of faith. Grace was given to Paul, even when he was previously violently, even though he previously violated and violently persecuted the church. So that grace alone in I think it's Ephesians 3, 8, what I've got on my notes here, where I gathered that from but at the same time, for someone to violently persecute the church, and God graciously give them grace and the forgiveness. What more does it take? And as far as what, meg and? And last night with Lisa when she was talking about when they hear us, that's in 1 John, chapter 4, verse 6, we are of God. He who knows God hears us. He who is not of God, does not hear us. By this, we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 9:So I don't know it's. I'm like everybody else, like it's wearing you out, just trying to prove a point. But what's the point in trying to prove it? It's right there, they can read it. We can reiterate it as many times as, but until they get it, maybe they're not supposed to get it. All I know is is salvation is what motivates us to try to live godly, that spirit within us. That's where it all comes from, that regeneration.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, see, the one thing that we have to that we can never lose sight of, because a lot of times when we have these conversations, when Christians and brethren have conversations, one thing that I always notice in these conversations is we always talk about they, the other folks, but we have to remember that we ourselves, too, have to have these things reminded to us and have them settled in our hearts, especially because we need to have a good grasp on these kinds of things to be able to explain you know these things to other, you know to other folks, and so, and we also have to remember where we were at one point when we didn't know these things and we were those that were on the other end of Christian saying those people don't get this and I don't understand why. You know, but sometimes we have to.
Speaker 3:Can you turn your phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, because it gives me an echo. But anyway, this is an important thing for all of us to always keep in mind. It's not a rebuke or anything like that, but it's helpful for us to understand that we were in the same place on one hand, and on the other hand, it helps us to stay sharp when dealing with God's truth and to be able to address these matters. So when we sit here and we talk about these kind of things, everyone is hearing what everyone is saying.