The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Faith PREVAILS, Torah FAILS! (Part 2 of 4)
Grace stands alone as the pathway to salvation, yet so many stumble by trying to add their own efforts to what Christ has already perfectly accomplished. This powerful discussion cuts through confusion to reveal why "faith working through love" is the only thing that matters in Christ Jesus.
We begin with a sobering reminder—eternal souls hang in the balance when we communicate the gospel. The clarity of our message matters because people are choosing between eternity with Christ and eternity apart from Him. There's no middle ground.
At the heart of our conversation is Paul's declaration that "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything." This strikes directly at our tendency to add religious requirements to faith. But doesn't Paul elsewhere say "keeping the commandments of God" matters? We explore this apparent contradiction, revealing that while God's law must indeed be perfectly kept, Christ has already fulfilled it on our behalf. His righteousness becomes ours through faith alone.
The most profound insight may be the simplest: "We are saved by works, just not our own works." Christ's perfect obedience is credited to us when we trust Him completely. This total surrender frightens our flesh, which desperately wants to maintain control and share the throne of our hearts. Yet in that surrender comes ultimate freedom.
Because Christ has infinite worth, His grace has infinite value. This helps us understand why rejecting this infinite salvation has eternal consequences. The debt sin creates can only be paid by eternity itself, which means without Christ's payment, one would never emerge from that debt.
Are you trying to earn what's already been freely given? Stop trying to fly by your own strength and surrender to the One whose perfect righteousness is offered to you as a gift. The throne of your heart was designed for one King alone.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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And those things that are true, that we're saying has a significant impact on how we are improving our witness and testimony to others, and this is what's important to do, and this is why we do this to become sharper at it. So, jeffrey, go ahead. One last, one, last extra comment I'm going to get into the text.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm right here, jonathan, as far as motivation for us to get this and understand it. The Lord just poked me a moment ago and he said, jeffrey, there are souls, eternal souls, at stake here, eternal souls at stake here. There are people here who are balancing between eternity with me, eternity apart from me. What are you going to do to clarify it for them so that they make the right decision instead of making the wrong one or becoming the wrong one? So I'm not trying again to preach tonight, jonathan, but the Lord is just hitting me here. I had to come all the way up here to where you live for Him to hit me right between the eyes, which is what he's doing tonight.
Speaker 2:But the importance of sharing the truth of the gospel and then watering that sharing with prayer, following up with people. What's going on, what's God doing in your life, and living who Jesus was. Let them see Jesus in us, not just hear him, because there are eternal souls at stake here and the time clock, or the clock is running out of time as far as history is concerned. We need to be moving. That's what I'm saying Amen, all right, all right.
Speaker 1:So let me get into the text and thank you guys for those little remarks, very good and very appropriate for what we're talking about, and I'm looking forward to the continued conversation and input from everybody as we proceed. So in verse five, you know, paul says for we, through the spirit, eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. And he's talking about this hope of righteousness, meaning that we believe that the righteousness which is obtained by faith in Jesus Christ this is what we are believing is going to be ultimately realized. But we know it already, we have it, but the hope is not speaking of something that, in the sense of this, is what we desire will happen. That hope is something that we know and believe has already happened on our behalf, those of us who trust in him, in him by saving faith, like Brother Oldschool Oldschool says. But notice something here he says how this happens. This eagerly awaiting for this hope of righteousness takes place through the spirit, and it is by way of the spirit, or through the spirit, that we eagerly wait for this hope, you know. And so it's interesting because the spirit has to be involved, and if this was something that could be done and accomplished by us, there would be no need for the Spirit.
Speaker 1:Christ told us in John 15, verse 26, it is needful for me to go so that I would send the comforter, the paraclete, the Holy Spirit, so that he can show you all things. And he says that the Holy Spirit, this comforter, he is going to testify of me. So you can't escape the fact that salvation only comes by way of Christ, and apart from a faith in him alone, apart from any works of any law, no flesh shall be justified. This is what Paul is saying. The spirit is what gives man the certainty and the eagerness for this hope of righteousness. So this goes back to the response, or I can add to the response, going back to the question that Meg had what is wrong with these folks? Why don't they get this? Because for us to get this, having this, this is a spirit thing. This is something that the Holy Spirit does, and only he convinces folks and gives them to understand that these things are true.
Speaker 1:Man's nature wants to dominate, wants to umpire in his heart. We're going to see this in Galatians, chapter 6. He wants his heart to be ruled and governed by his own will. But there cannot be two masters on the throne of the individual's heart. It will either be Christ, it will either be the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or it will be man deciding and making the decisions regarding his own life and he gets to determine how much more, if anything, needs to be added to the grace that was given for salvation.
Speaker 1:But what the spirit teaches is that you are making a very foolish mistake by adding to what I do. You're making a foolish mistake by adding to what I have laid on the human heart as the Requirements for salvation. And the requirement Is not a requirement. That is not. The requirement that we get is sweet, it is compelling, it's glorious, it is all-encompassing of all that we need in order for salvation. I'll see you, jeffrey, I'll get there in a second.
Speaker 1:It's a total, as Old School says, it is a total and complete surrender. And, in keeping with what Brother, as Old School says, it is a total and complete surrender and in keeping with what Brother Fornone says, this can produce fear when you have to fully surrender. In fleshly, human terms, absolute surrender means fear. It can produce fear and I can see that, and that's actually a perspective that I've never considered in this that doing the wrong thing or believing the wrong thing can be a result of fear, because man does not like the idea of relinquishing himself into the hands of another and totally trusting, like Brother Old School is saying, jeffrey and then Angie, go ahead, brother Jeffrey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jonathan, you mentioned a moment ago that it was foolish to not put your faith in grace but in works. Jonathan, I'll take that a step further, if I may. It is fatal. It is. It is fatal. It will kill you. It will eternally separate you from the goodness of God if you rely on works and reject grace.
Speaker 2:Right Grace alone is getting the human, the sinful flesh, nature, out of the way before we begin to realize that it has no value here, none, zero. Okay, the flesh is only here to deceive, and so we have to communicate Christ in such a way that people see that it is he, and he alone, that brings the salvation that is needed. But the flesh doesn't want to hear that, because it says, if you need something besides yourself, you're a weak person, you're a failure. Okay, you've not done, you're not doing what everybody else does. Why do you need Christ? Okay, can't you take care of your own life? Can't you provide for yourself? And my answer is a blunt no, I can't. I need grace. Amen, blunt no, I can't, I need grace. My brothers and sisters on the panel, let's all say that we all need grace. Love you all. I'm fired up tonight. I'm sorry. I'm going to see Jonathan tomorrow. I'm ready to just pop my buttons here. Okay, I'm out.
Speaker 1:You don't need to apologize, brother, sister, angie, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Brother, you know this pertains to what you were saying a minute ago about surrender. Because the thing is is, when you know the flesh is imitating towards the spirit, the spirit towards the flesh, and the thing is is that humans want to have control. When you surrender, you relinquish all control because you know God's in control. So therefore, when it comes down to what it said about fear, what's our brother's name up there? He talked about fear. People fear of not being able to control the outcome, when the outcome is already done and by God's will and what he chooses. So, a lot of times that people tell me I don't know how you fly by the seat of your pants, it's not even my pants, it's Christ's pants. You know, because I relinquish control, it's not for us to control, he is. So when you have full surrender, in that, there's no need to have a human effort or an intention or thing to do in your, in yourself, because that's a fleshy thing, right, of course, but that I'm believed to. That people have, do not?
Speaker 1:they fear not having control right, absolutely, I'll come back to you. Uh, candy, because I want to get through some a couple more. I want to get a little further in this, in the text, and I'll come back to you. Um, so notice that he says for we, through the spirit, in verse five, by the spirit, through the spirit, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. And he says for in christ jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything but faith works through love. Now, this is interesting, especially when you look at what he says in verse 5, because notice this he says that the spirit, which we all know, operates within us In a much more, in a much more invasive way, if I can use that word, but in a good way than he did before. We understand with a great deal more clarity and a lot less ambiguity how he works to bring us to faith. We understand that. But so what Paul is saying is that, in order for us to faith, we understand that. But so what Paul is saying is that, in order for us to understand this hope of righteousness, this is something that we are eager for, but this is motivated and influenced in us by the Holy Spirit that is in us. And then he says, and he's basically saying the evidence of this is in Christ, in Christ Jesus. And he says because neither circumcision nor uncircumcision.
Speaker 1:So he's going so far as to say listen, the problem that we're having here, galatia, is that you have fallen prey to the Judaizers, who are telling you that it's okay for you to believe all this stuff about this man, jesus Christ, but you still need to be circumcised if you want to be a part of our family, the God's sons. But notice what Paul says. He says not only does he say that that circumcision will do you no good, but he also says that not having circumcision will do you no good. So whether you've been circumcised or whether you have not been circumcised doesn't matter. So when you think about this for a second, he takes circumcision off the plate and says it's still, you are still not justified or you still do not have the hope of righteousness of faith, even without the circumcision, without the spirit working in you, this eagerness to have the hope of righteousness of faith being established. I hope that we can understand the significance of what he's saying here, because the whole argument up to this point has been about adding circumcision to faith. And now he says well, I've made the case that adding circumcision to faith is frustrating the grace of God, as Brother Brian pointed out in Galatians 2.20. But what Paul says also, he goes. Well, guess what. Not only does circumcision not avail anything, but even uncircumcision not having been circumcised does you no favors either. Uncircumcision not having been circumcised does you no favors either. In other words, just because I'm saying that circumcision doesn't, you know, cannot be added, does it mean that not having one justifies either? What he is saying is he's he's pulling, he's bringing it down to the bare bones.
Speaker 1:Brother Oldschool says it in the comments circumcision is of the heart, and what is in the heart? That that enables us to believe and have obtained righteousness. It is the seed of faith that is put in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which enables us to establish and to hold on to this eagerness for the hope of righteousness, which can only come by faith, which can only come by faith. Paul turns every argument, every issue into one that is about, and focused on faith, and this is what we have to understand, because it reduces all the complexity, all of the arguments. Think about this Every argument that you ever have with any person that is resisting you, if you are conveying the truth.
Speaker 1:Every resistance against the truth is always going to be an issue of one thing faith and the lack thereof and the lack thereof, every issue, everyone who holds anything false, there's a problem with their faith or the lack thereof. I should say this is the issue and this is what needs to be corrected. And the only way this can be established is by a work of the holy spirit in the heart. And this is what paul says that this happens through the spirit, how this happens. So, in christ jesus, neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails anything but faith working through love. Now he just said that, that through spirit, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. But then he also says here in verse six, that circumcision, uncircumcision means nothing has no part in your salvation, no part at all, but faith working through love. This is what establishes a firm foundation of what true salvation is all about. So, candy, go ahead, you're going to read something.
Speaker 5:I was going to read from 2 Peter, but with that last little bit you went to in 1 Corinthians, chapter 6, verse 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. I'm going to go to chapter 7, verse 18. And not is any man called being circumcised? Question Let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? Question Let him not be circumcised. 19 says circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of god. And then when I was in second peter it's like second peter, chapter one, verse five and'm going to go to probably I'm going to go through 9, if you don't care, but also, for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue to virtue, knowledge to knowledge, self-control to self-control, perseverance to perseverance, godliness to godliness, brotherly kindness, kindness and to brotherly kindness, love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our lord jesus cross.
Speaker 5:for he who lacks these things is short-sighted, even to the blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins so let me ask you back on the fallen from grace that I think, um, and with that I I have to you asked all day, that day, like what does that mean? And nobody gave a wrong answer. But a little bit deeper studying on this chapter that we're going through, it is basically we forfeit that blessing of the gospel given for us to get to where I just got to in verse nine. We've been saved and cleansed from those old sins. We've been forgiven Right sins, we've been forgiven. When you turn from that and fall from it, you're basically giving God away and therefore you're forfeiting that Christian growth in Him and God's blessings.
Speaker 1:Right. So let me, brother Jeffrey, man of God, let me ask you a question. Can you quote a verse in Corinthians where it says that circumcision does you no good, uncircumcision does you no good, but keeping the commandments of God, does that contradict what we were talking about in Galatians?
Speaker 6:No.
Speaker 1:So what does he mean when he says but keeping the commandments of God be the commandments of God.
Speaker 6:Well, the commandments of God are, you know not what people think in terms of you know, the Old Testament, torah, commands and all that kind of thing. The commandments of God are number one you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is, like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. It's all about love. I mean, and you know, later on, and especially in John, the book of love, jesus over and over states you know, if you love me, then obey my commandments, and if you love each other, then you've shown others that you're Christians, and things of that nature, and even that list of things, that this comes to this, this comes to this, the candy red, the last part, was love. You know, we, you and I talked about the first Corinthians 13,. You know, I mean, it's love is the key. And so, no, there is no, there is no contradiction, because the commandments are easy. We're basically to be like Jesus to you know, that's what I think anyway.
Speaker 1:So God's word? Let me ask you the same question. In first Corinthians seven, 19,. That can sister candy read. She read that circumcision is nothing. Uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of god. What does he mean when he says keeping the commandments of god? Because now paul is saying this and somebody could walk away with the conclusion if they hadn't read that, they hadn't read galatians. They could walk away with the conclusion that you actually must keep the law in order to be, in order to be safe. So what do you say about that? What does he say? What he's saying here when he talks about keeping the commandments?
Speaker 3:you're not keeping the commandments. The spirit within you is keeping the commandments. They're doing the word that testifies to the truth of love. And the simple fact is if you love your neighbor as yourself, you're not going to be stealing from your neighbor. You're not going to be murdering your neighbor. You're not going to be stealing from your neighbor. You're not going to be murdering your neighbor. You're not going to be doing any of those evil things because there's no love in doing that. So there's no contradiction in it at all. It's pretty simple. God's law is simple. It always has been. It's man that makes it difficult, right?
Speaker 1:The foreknown Same question what was the last part of the question? So the last part of the question was when paul said so. In galatians we're talking about the distinction between uh keeping the commandments of the law and by faith. So paul says in galatians 5 6 that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything. He says the same thing here in first corinthians 7, verse 19, but on 7 19 he says circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of god. So what does he mean by the commandments of God? Is he contradicting himself in Galatians?
Speaker 7:No, what the other gentleman said is exactly what I was going to say. You know, it's all about the proper understanding of how we achieve things right. Because if we achieve keeping the commandments or whatever anything at all on with our own volition and our own ability, then we get the glory Right. But if it's God achieving it, where does it say in? I don't know the location, but it says that he wills and works through us to complete all things and to do fruits. So that way, you know, at the end of time it's God that gets all the glory for everything that we've ever done. But because he's such a glorious being, he's still going to give us gifts for doing them Right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, brother. One more, let me see, see, uh may. What's your thoughts? Is there a contradiction here?
Speaker 8:I don't think that there's a contradiction, but I I think that, like faith, working through love um shows an active faith right right it is active, meaning that it's. It says faith, which work is by love. So, as Christ is the fruit we're going to see once we get on into Galatians, chapter five, that Christ will also, since Christ is the root, christ will also produce the fruit of that faith.
Speaker 1:Well, see what. So what I want to get back to you. I want to get back to what I'm trying to ask you. When Paul says in Galatians Corinthians 7, 19, he says, like he says in Galatians 5, 6, circumcision, uncircumcision, has no value. But in 2 Corinthians or in 1 Corinthiansthians he adds but the commandments of god. So my question is is he contradicting himself here from what he says in galatians 5, 6? And if and if he's not, then how do you align these two, these two, these two um perspectives that paul seems to be conveying, which he's not. But I'm just saying I want to get, I want to.
Speaker 8:This is why it's important how we think about these things so when I, when I see, when I see that when it comes to circumcision, I see, when it's talking about that it's, it's pretty much what jesus was talking about when he was calling out the Pharisees, meaning that they were circumcised on the outside but they were dirty on the inside, whereas when we we have the circumcision of the heart, that is that is by faith and what Christ does in us when he gives us that heart of flesh, that's the circumcision on on inwardly. To reconcile those, I would say yes, um, no, it's not contradictory, because we have the circumcision without hands and that's faith in christ okay, I'm gonna ask one more.
Speaker 1:let me see, brother brian, let me ask you now. So I um, you know we're having a conversation, I'm somebody you want to share and witness to, and you showed me this passage in Galatians 5, 6, where Paul says clearly that that if we're in Christ Jesus, either circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith works through love. But in 1 Corinthians 7, 19,. I'm in the wrong, wrong corinthians here. In first corinthians 7, 19, the apostle, the same apostle. He says circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, which he says in galatians 5, 6, but here he adds but keeping of the law, I mean the keeping of the commandments of God, is what matters. So if I'm an unbeliever and I've read both of these sections, how do you help me reconcile this in my mind?
Speaker 9:Well, as far as with me, I would sit back and I would refer right back to that same apostle. I would sit back and I would refer right back to that same apostle and back to that second chapter. In that 20 verse, paul said you know, christ was crucified. He says it's no longer me that's living, but it's Christ that's living in me in a life that I now live in the flesh. I live by the faith of the son of God, who died and gave himself for me. Son of God, who died and gave himself for me, for for grace, came by the law. Then he died in vain, all right.
Speaker 1:So there's a little. There's another nugget I want to add into that, because you're right where I want to be, you're right where I'm trying to get at, and everybody's been correct so far, by the way, so I'm not insinuating anybody's wrong. Everybody's been right and, believe me, I wouldn't say that if I didn't mean it. But there's another aspect, because, brian, you're right there when you're talking about Christ in us. Yes, so again, you're talking to an eighth grader. How do I know from what you know about Christ, how do I know that this is not a contradiction? You're right where I want to be.
Speaker 9:It's not a contradiction because even when you get into 1 John, he says this is the commandments that we love God and believe on him that he sent. This is it. And upon these two hang all that. And I really like this topic because the same apostle, when you get in chapter six I believe, they begin to charge this apostle with telling people that they can sin so that grace will abound. But Paul said how can we, that's really saved, live any therein? So that he said I'm not just because I'm talking grace, that I'm not saying that you should live any old kind of way because we're saved. And and back to what somebody else was saying. He said they said where's workmanship? But listen what it says. We are his workmanship, we are his workmanship. Right, it's him doing it right.
Speaker 1:See, here, here's, here's, here's what I'm getting at the the. I've said this before to people who may have heard me say this, but I've said this before. Here's what I'm getting at. I've said this before to people who may have heard me say this, but I've said it before, so forgive me if I'm repetitive, but the best sermon I ever heard in person, in live and in person, was when this pastor, a good preacher, he, came to visit the church that I was in at the time. He comes up into the pulpit and here's the first thing he says. He says we are saved by works, we are saved by works. Now, I know well enough that he's going somewhere, but when you hear that it will make you sort of cringe, because we all know that we're saved by grace. But what he said was and his whole argument was this we are saved by works, just not by our own works. We're saved by the works of Christ, and so it is his active obedience to God's law that he kept perfectly, having obtained righteousness for us, and then, when we put our faith in him, that righteousness is imputed to us. So when Paul says, when Paul says and my brother Brian in the comments, has been saying it all along. But when Paul says that we are justified or that circumcision does not avail, uncircumcision does not avail, but keeping the law matters, it does. But what we have to understand and what we have to make people understand, you know, when we share in our witness to them is this Paul's not contradicting himself. He's telling you what is required. But what you need to understand in the other door that opens up to this lost soul, is that you need to stop trying to work for your salvation. You can't keep the law. Why? Because of sin. So the remedy for that is God, put on human flesh, came to earth, obeyed God's law, kept it. Those commandments needed to be kept, needed to be obeyed. And then the Lord sacrificed himself, having been obedient to all of God's laws, all of God's commandment, and when he died he resurrected, bringing reconciliation to those who trusted him by faith. And by that faith his obedience has now become our obedience. His active obedience has become our obedience. That's how we stand before God, reconciled, justified, propitiated for, made at peace with.
Speaker 1:And so the answer is that there is no contradiction. We must keep the law in order to be saved. But we couldn't do it. Christ did. So the whole matter of faith is what brings that, that, that aspect of what Christ did and gives it to us, and that is how we are made at peace with God, because God didn't provide, he didn't send Christ to be a, an alternative that we can look to and lay hold of if we exercise our will. No, he went to the cross to secure righteousness for his elect people and that's what he did.
Speaker 1:So this is such an important thing, but when you look at it, it just again, it ties the word all together and, like Meg says here in the comments, he literally took our place in fulfilling the law. That is exactly what happened. Jesus did it for us. So the issue is not that the the issue is not that the commit, that the commandment, that the god's commandments don't say it's just that we can't obey it in order to be saved. But Christ did, and now, by faith, we lay a hold of his righteousness. And so now, as a result of adhering, as a result of trusting in him, by faith, as our substitute See, these are the words that we need to tell sinners he is our substitute, he went in our place.
Speaker 1:This is the heart of the gospel, brethren. This is it. His atonement became ours, his righteousness became ours, he, but he had to obey it first. We have to trust in what he did for us, and that's where the surrender comes in. Do you believe that what he did was not only sufficient to save you but efficient in doing so? And if you can believe that, then you have this eager expectation that the hope of righteousness is fulfilled in you and that what he says here, that faith is working through love, this is it. It always goes back to the atonement what Christ did for us. What did he do? He obeyed the law, sister Meg you're talking about this.
Speaker 8:I think a beautiful picture to kind of paint with it is that. I think you said something a while back that I thought about, and it was the value of christ.
Speaker 8:His value was infinite yes okay, and so, again, this is why we see that hell has to be eternal and everlasting. Life is eternal because he is everlasting and he is eternal and therefore his grace is eternal. His, the worth of his grace, is eternal. His, the worth of his grace is eternal and that's why it's unmerited favor. Because he is eternal, he has infinite worth. So if he has infinite worth and he's infinite valuable, then his grace is infinite worth and infinite value, and what we, what we have to. One thing that you showed me like had me thinking, was about this concept here. And so sin demands payment, and the only way that that could happen if he infinitely paid for it and infinitely nailed it to the cross.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you the question while you're on this, because I love this, I love this talk, so let me ask you this question, meg how do you use what you're just talking about right now to overturn the idea that hell is not eternal and everlasting?
Speaker 8:Well, I would say that, in order, if heaven is everlasting and we have everlasting life, that payment would be everlasting, which, from an everlasting God. The penalty would therefore be everlasting. Therefore, hell would have to be everlasting as well.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's it, nothing else to add to that. Leave it, don't mess that up. That's beautiful, because what you're acknowledging is 100% true. If you reject the infinite salvation that only comes from our infinite savior, the penal consequences of that are infinite. It's a debt that only eternity can pay, and because eternity is forever, you never come out and people think this is horrific. It is horrific, it is horrible, it is terrible. So why will you not believe Brother Fornone? Go ahead.
Speaker 7:So I was just curious. You know we're talking about the. You know, quote unquote believers or Christians that believe in the that it's not just grace, right, it's by works and what you do. So they don't explain works the way that we just broke it down. They don't think that God, you know, does it, wills it and does it through us, through Christ. They think that it's of our own actual energy and power. Is that how they think about it? The Catholics and the Orthodox?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, oh yeah, they absolutely do. See, men, men, men worship their wills and there's a, there's an element of people who feels that their throne, their heart, being the throne that governs their selves, their ego, meaning the inward man, the, the id, the ego. They believe that. Well, you know, I like this Jesus stuff that Brother Fornone is talking about, or to Angie or Brian or anybody's talking about. They like that. But here's what I'll do. Let's compromise, let's share the throne, let's share the throne.
Speaker 7:So that's how the