The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: SINsual Lusts of the Flesh (Part 2 of 4)
What does marriage reveal about our relationship with Christ? This thought-provoking conversation explores the sacred bond of marriage as a divine institution that, when centered on God, transforms our understanding of Christ's love for His church.
The discussion begins with a powerful assertion: marriage, with God at its center, brings us closer to Christ by demonstrating the covenant relationship He desires with us. This sets the stage for an honest examination of adultery's devastating impact. One speaker vulnerably shares his personal story of how adultery destroyed his pastoral ministry and family relationships, describing it as "a reprehensible, heinous sin" that requires "a complete rebuild of who I am in Christ." His testimony serves as both a warning and a beacon of hope for those who have fallen into similar patterns.
The conversation deepens when exploring God's perspective on divorce. We learn that God's hatred of divorce isn't merely a rule but reveals something profound about His character—He will never divorce His bride, the church. This brings comfort to believers questioning their salvation, as one speaker notes, "The only way we can lose our salvation is if God divorces us. How can the one who hates divorce, divorce His bride? He can't and He won't."
Particularly enlightening is the discussion of biblical marriage customs, where engagement itself constituted marriage in God's eyes. This historical context transforms our understanding of Joseph's consideration to "put away" Mary quietly upon learning of her pregnancy before their wedding ceremony.
For couples struggling with relationship challenges, practical wisdom emerges through personal testimonies. One participant shares how seemingly trivial irritations with her spouse—his chewing, his walking style—became magnified points of contention until she recognized these as spiritual attacks and brought them before God.
Have you considered how your marriage reflects Christ's relationship with His church? Whether married, single, or divorced, this episode offers profound insights into God's design for covenant relationships and His unwavering faithfulness to us.
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When you are married. You understand this one, you understand the sanctifying power of marriage and how it will, if done correctly, with God as the center. It will bring you so much closer to Christ and in that you'll actually see the relationship Christ wants with us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Amen brother.
Speaker 2:Jeff, man of God, go ahead Right. Amen, brother. Jeff, man of.
Speaker 3:God go ahead. What I wanted to add here is that this is a particularly complicated, convoluted sin. I mean, when you commit fornication, you basically have two people that are not married, that are doing it outside of marriage Okay, and that's defilement of your temple. But when you're involved in an adulterous relationship and I'm not pontificating, I've been guilty of this in the past, I'm ashamed to admit it, but you're actually disturbing four lives, potentially assuming both people are married. So you're involving four people that God loves.
Speaker 3:The other thing is it involves deception, it involves hypocrisy, it involves shame. You know it involves so many other things too. I mean, you know, when people fornicate, they don't necessarily deceive somebody else. I mean, they're single and people just go okay, they're single, even though that's wrong. But you know you have to hide and you have to lie and you have to, you know, do all this other kind of stuff. So it's really, it's really. Yeah, well, at least it just typed. You're betraying a covenant and it's just a horrible thing, I mean. So you know there is no greater sin in general, but still it is a particularly bad one to be involved in and it's something you really never get over. Uh, you know, I mean, you know, I? I would probably say for me it's been many years, but I still haven't gotten over it, because, uh, it's you know. Anyway, that's what I had to say I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think any true christian, I don't think that any true believer ever gets over it in terms of having understanding that every sin that we commit is a sin against god. You may get you might get over it in terms of the person you cheated on. You may get over how you destroyed a family and it ruined your kids lives and all these other kind of things that that that adultery does and usually ends up leading into divorce. But it is such. It is such a complex, uh, it is such a complex work of the flesh because, as lisa and mariah and and michael sort of brought home in this issue and I think, uh, cain has started with this is that it is a direct um it. It violates the model that was laid out for us by God himself in terms of our relationship with him, which has constituted a marriage. We are, as believers, the bride of Christ. And let me say something that some people may have a hard time trying to understand, that some people may have a hard time trying to understand Anybody, anybody who has been divorced and I mean everybody and anybody who has been divorced is guilty of this sin. The Bible makes it very clear about this. Now people will come up with this idea and I want to make this clear in the ears of everyone listening. People believe that, because a writing of divorcement was given by moses because of the sinfulness of people, that somehow god relaxed what he intended and what he and what he authorized to be an acceptable relationship and, in his eyes, so man has convinced themselves that well, if somebody, if my spouse, commits adultery, then I have the grounds to get a divorce. And moses gave that and it was what people did and this is what people still do to this very day. However, that does not exempt you from this being considered a work of the flesh and a violation against god. It is not. So anyone who talks about law keeping, for example, for example, you, you cannot say that you have kept god's law in any capacity, especially in that one because divorce. Let's understand something about divorce real quick, and I know we're spending some time that you have kept God's law in any capacity, especially in that one, because divorce. Let's understand something about divorce real quick, and I know we're spending some time here, but this is a subject that people need to understand.
Speaker 2:God hates divorce. As Canaan says, god hates divorce. He doesn't sanction it, he doesn't authorize it, he doesn't love it, he hates it. And if you've been divorced before and you're a Christian, he knows our frame. All your sin has been forgiven, past, present and future, all of it.
Speaker 2:Some people who who stand outside of the body of Christ, may look at it and go like, oh so you guys, you guys make you relax things here. We understand God's mercy, we understand his compassion, we understand that none of us can stand under the weight of any of God's law that he imposes upon men if they intend to try to obey the law, apart from the grace that comes by way of Christ. But we need to understand divorce is not a a legitimate way in God's eyes to avoid, to avoid what you think is a sin. You can look at the other, your, your spouse, and go hey, this is the reason you cheated, I cheated. Whatever it may be, the fact remains when you divorce, not only, uh, if you divorce because of adultery, not only that, but both parties are now subject to adultery because in god's eyes, that marriage that you, that you establish, is one that he put together and he says, of what he put together that no man tear apart or put asunder, does that mean you are not free to marry again? No, it doesn't. You are free to marry again. The scriptures makes that very clear. And does it mean that god did not put you together with the next wife or husband that you got married to? It does not mean that he did put that together. But we need to understand that all that men do. When we sin against god in any particular sin, we are violators of them all. Even if you never committed adultery ever in your life, he says that if you just coveted once in thought only, you're guilty of the entire law of God, including adultery, fornication and so forth. People don't understand Christians. We need to understand the magnitude of sin and how pervasive that it is. So when you commit any sin, you commit any work of flesh and the flesh you're guilty of violating and breaking the whole of God's law and therefore stand condemned. If you do not know our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ, and even then we stand condemned. However, because we put our faith and trust in him, it is his condemnation that frees us from being condemned. So when you look at any other thing that I want to say about adultery and then I'll move on In the biblical times, in the times of Christ and in the times of Paul and the apostles, when you committed to a marriage relationship, when you committed to a marriage, in other words, when you got engaged, when you got engaged, that constituted in God's eyes the marriage, not when you said the vows and went down the aisle and had the ceremonial aspect of it.
Speaker 2:No, down the aisle and had the ceremonial aspect of it. No, the engagement, the commitment to marriage, is what constituted the marriage. This was why, when Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant with the child of the Holy Ghost, it says he was minded to put her away. Remember, they hadn't been married yet, they hadn't come together and consummated that marriage, they hadn't gone that final step through the ceremonial aspect of it and and through the um, uh, the ceremonial, the ceremonial piece of it and the consummation part. But when it says he was minded to put her away secretly, to put her away part means to divorce, right, it means to divorce. So it was in the engagement stage where you could divorce somebody for adultery. What we have going on today is not like what was happening then, because then, when you got married, when you went to the consummation phase and the ceremonial phase, that was a done deal phase. And the ceremonial phase? That was a done deal. That was an absolute done deal. There is no way out of that marriage, no way Unless there's a death.
Speaker 2:So when, in biblical times, in the Old Testament time, in New Testament, early New Testament times, divorcement was what happened when you were engaged, not after the fact, at the engagement part. That was the only phase Of the relationship when you could be divorced. What we have today Is not what was being experienced then. Don't believe me. Go check it out for yourself. Go check it out for yourself.
Speaker 2:Marriage and divorce today Is not what was experienced then. So if I ask my wife to marry me and she says yes and I put that ring on her finger, we are married, notwithstanding the ceremonial and the physical consummation of that marriage. And if I found out, or she found out, that there was adultery or sexual impropriety while we were in that phase, in that engagement phase, that is what constitutes adultery Even in the engagement Phase. That is what it constitutes Adultery Even in the Engagement stage. So A lot of people Don't like hearing this, but it's the truth. And, as I said, let this provoke you a little bit and go check it out on your own, because you will find out.
Speaker 4:It is the truth, sister Candy, go ahead right, because in this generation of people nowadays no one wants to go through the work that it takes to stand beside that one person that either is or isn't. But how do you know if you don't endure and trust and lean and depend on God to be the head of that marriage? If we can't and I'm speaking because I was one of those who always said I was never getting married because ain't no man going to sign a piece of paper thinking he owns me. But I'll tell you what changed throughout all. That is when Jesus changed me and when I finally got out of the relationship with my daughter's dad after 22 years, and I'm sure in my testimony I said I was supposed to have gotten out a few years prior to becoming pregnant and didn't. But then after that I was kind of trapped and it was hard to get out. But I made excuses. In life there are no excuses. You either want to or you don't period. But finally, several years after that, like when I finally got out of that relationship, it was like it literally took me saying I'm done, lord, I don't want, I don't want nothing else, but you Like I would, I choose to be. I. Literally I was like I choose to be married to you, god. I choose you over everything this world has to offer me. Like I don't want nothing. I just want to do whatever it is you have in your will for me to do. And I'm going to tell you something.
Speaker 4:From that day forth, it was like the transition from getting away from all that negativity, all that stuff that was just overconsuming, overwhelming. Just ah, what am I going to do? I've got to get away from all this. You have to be a better role model for our kids, man. We cannot let our kids grow up to think that the things that we did were okay. We have to give them a better example than the crosswalk example. But at the same time, it literally takes. I say discipline. I say discipline. You literally have to be so consumed that in God, in Jesus, because he's the only way, he's the only way. So, yeah, marriage, the marriage to him and him being the husband of the, of the bride that that's waiting to when he comes back to get us and take us home. Wow, I mean is he?
Speaker 4:married, abstain from all that, that, that lust and stuff in this world, and if we're meant to be single I thought I was, but then I met. Tony came back into my life and it's so easy because when you're not used to people's behaviors and attitudes and this and that it's so it's easier to say man, I'm not dealing with this, I'm done with this, I want a divorce. And but when you're with Christ, you have to see there, possibly you have to trust him that he has something that's good. It's going to come out of it, period all about him
Speaker 5:in the end amen sister appreciate that brother canaan go ahead and while we see the implications of what god says about divorce, we also see a beautiful picture that he paints in ephesians 5, 25 through 33. I'm sure you're all familiar with it. And so these are the things we must weigh when we make these decisions, and not to take them lightly, but again to seek the Lord first and all things, with who we're seeing or thinking of marrying and all these things, because once you're with them, there's no divorce unless on alignment. And so we also see the beauty in what happens is when you're in a relationship you can serve and be selfless and demonstrate Christ's love to your wife or your husband, and that trickles down into your family and it creates a beautiful legacy for your family and for Christians to come. And that is why the enemy constantly attacks the husband and the wife, so that the destruction and this is speaking from my own experiences that generational destruction will take place and the enemy will have victory in all these families over generations.
Speaker 5:Because of this, and once you are the deciding and changing factor in that, because the Lord is leading you away from that trend and from that generational train, you break it, you sever it, and so we need to be even holding harder onto Christ's word, harder onto his ways to really think of ourself less and serve others as Christ served.
Speaker 5:Because when we see his ministry we see what he did. He came in on a donkey. He didn't have a place to lay his head. He was constantly going from one place to another. He had no place that was truly his home. And in that same way, that is the same mindset that we need to adopt in our relationships to have victory over things that we're talking about, you know, that are in contrary to the spirit, and in that way we have victory and we can truly reflect Christ in his kingdom and our life and in the world, in such a dark place where divorce is abundant and I said it earlier but people treat divorce as if it's optional, as if it's a choice or as if it's easy because society embraces that ideology and it's poison.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's very true. And you know something you said in the beginning, part of that I can't remember it verbatim, but it touches upon. And this is when it comes to divorce. This is the brighter side of this. The brighter side because there is no bright side really to divorce. This is the brighter side of this, the brighter side, because there is no bright side really to divorce. It is always. There is no scenario.
Speaker 2:Let me make it clear there is no scenario where divorce is not a sin. No scenario because, even if the description makes it plain, even if you are the perpetrator and your spouse gets the divorce because of your sin, you cause her or him to sin. So, no matter how you look at it, whoever is doing the divorce thing causes the other person to commit adultery and vice versa. And see, so this is. But see, some people may look at this and say to me or say you're crazy, that's impossible. But see, here's the thing People don't understand the holiness of God.
Speaker 2:They don't understand his holiness. He, in modern terms, let me say it this way he doesn't play. He does not play when it comes to sin and obedience. But I mentioned that there is a bright side to this, but the bright side of divorce has nothing to do with us or the relationship that we have with our spouses and and we're going through divorce. It tells us something god's hatred about divorce tells us something about him, brother Greg. Let me ask you what does God's perspective on divorce tell us about him? Brother Greg, you there.
Speaker 6:Yeah, Well, you know I got a couple of different thoughts. Well, you know everyone hit it. You know it's a covenant issue. Marriage is a reflection of, or you know is supposed to be a reflection of, the covenant between Christ and the church. Right, God hates divorce, but he divorced Israel, you know. So I don't know what to make of that.
Speaker 2:What do you think? Well, let me ask one more person. Let me ask Lisa. Then I'm going to come back to that. Lisa, you got something you wanted to say.
Speaker 7:Oh well, I was just going to say when Canaan brought up that the enemy comes to attack couples, I've experienced this firsthand and I was just going to share just some of the little things that I noticed. And it was God in his goodness, he showed it to me and he saved my marriage. But there were times, you know, my husband could walk into a room and I could like his chewing would annoy me so bad. I wanted to. It's just ridiculous stuff, like you know. It seems silly, but it was to the point where him and I were the same, like we couldn't even walk past each other because he shuffled or something. And why do you shuffle that way? And it was. It's so ridiculous and but it seems so funny and stupid, but it really it.
Speaker 7:It led me into into it led me into deeper sin and betrayal of my marriage and just because I was and I couldn't understand this anger I felt towards him. But when I realized, and I realized what was happening and brought it to the cross and just, you know, confessed and God is so good and my marriage is stronger now than it's ever been, you know, and we talked, I talked to my husband about that, like when he starts getting snappy with me. I, you know it's like are you? You know what's going on here? And we, we always, we always know and we're never going to be immune to that. So people keep again, just be on guard, you know, keep that armor on and remember who we are in Christ. That's all I wanted to say, just encouragement and experience.
Speaker 2:That's great sister. I appreciate that Brother Michael go ahead. Well are you? Want to go with what greg asked about god divorcing israel yeah, go for it, because I was gonna deal with that too, but but I'll hear. If you got an answer for it, let's deal with it. Go ahead, brother yeah.
Speaker 1:So you got to look. You know one. We always use words that we would understand of what god's actions are going for. And so in that case we see Israel being the unfaithful wife and God handed her over to her reprobate behavior, basically, and allowed her to go into exile and everything. But we know. And then we know in the law they state how if a woman leaves, she cannot return to her first husband and so forth. And we know that had to deal with the whole. What am I thinking of? The money they get? But what's the money they get at the beginning of a marriage and stuff in the dowry and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So there was a lot of, there were a lot of issues why returning to the first husband wasn't allowed. But we see God later on in Jeremiah talking about return. Faithless Israel declares the Lord, I will frown on you no longer, for I am faithful. And so there's a picture there and we see this in the book of Hosea that God is going to show his faithfulness through different means throughout all of Scripture. That's what we're seeing there. They're using harsh and strong language as a bill of divorce to show how unfaithful Israel was to God. Right in that sense?
Speaker 2:Absolutely no, very, very true, very true, brother Jeffrey. Encourage the servant, go ahead.
Speaker 8:Well, jonathan, I've been sitting here holding my peace for a while, wanting to share tonight. Some of you on the panel may know my testimony of what has transpired in the course of my life. I was a pastor years ago and chose to allow adultery to come into my life and absolutely destroy everything, and when I say everything, I mean all of it. I committed the adultery with the young lady who led me to Christ when I was a teenager. Okay, so you talk about a reprehensible, heinous sin. This was it. I mean it doesn't get a whole lot lower than that. But well, I'll say this but God was willing and able to extend grace even unto someone who committed sin on that level. But my point here is that it destroys every part of you. I had to do a complete rebuild of who I am in Christ after that was over. I mean, it has put damage between my son and me. It has given me a testimony that has helped other men get through adultery issues. So that is a good thing.
Speaker 8:But, however, it is to be avoided like the plague. I mean, when you're in that relationship, you are being totally inconsistent with who you say you are. You're lying to everyone, you're lying to yourself and you have to keep covering up what you do, which is almost impossible. It becomes a juggling act after a while and your life just isn't consistent and people begin to see that and they begin to ask questions what's going on? Why are you behaving this way? What is this you're doing over here that I don't understand? And it's endless. It can be endless. It can be a treadmill if you don't get off.
Speaker 8:So my point here, folks, is, as I said in the scroll a moment ago, put on your armor from Ephesians, chapter six and become a farmer of the fruit, as it says in Galatians, chapter five. That's where we need to be and that's where we should be. So I encourage all of you to do that today and if anyone ever has, listen. One other thing, and I'll get out If ever you are dealing with this issue, reach out for help. Do not under any keep this to yourself. If you're being tempted with this, get help If the person you're reaching out to truly loves you and cares for you in Christ. They are not going to condemn you. They're not going to judge you. They're going to help you, they're going to advise you, they're going to encourage you, they're going to pray for you, okay, and help you get, with God's love, around and out of that situation. So that's all I wanted to say, jonathan.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 4:Sandy go ahead and with him saying that, I got to say that is what the Holy Spirit and God is all about. That's why it's 12, dennis. It's because he does not allow us to be tempted no more than we can handle what he knows we can handle. But the fact is, who do we turn to when we face those issues? Do we turn to him or do we turn to man? We turn to help or do we turn to man? Because which one of you want to benefit the most from man? No offense, I'm not saying that you can't turn to your congregation, to your fellow brothers and sisters, because we are supposed to help you with that. So, yes, that would be god's hands and feet that is sent to help you with the prayer that you prayed about and give that blessing of his love and affection and compassion and to help you get through that time together with his body, with him, but at the same time, yeah, encourage and serve at your daily running. Forget about what I was thinking about before. That made me raise my hand. It was something about what the guy before you was talking about and I can't remember, but anyway, it'll come back to me. But yeah, that's the key factor right there, because he tells us in, if I'm not mistaken, 1 Peter, no 2 Peter, 1 or 2 Peter. He tells us everywhere in the Bible that he will get us through the temptations because he doesn't give us any. We will not face any temptations that we cannot bear. That he already knows. And then, on top of that, the tribulations he's already defeated. The world, he says don't worry about whatever tribulations, he's already overcome it. Victory is his and we are in him. So we have victory with him.
Speaker 4:So, yes, it's all about the dependency of him. Do we literally depend on him, or do we look at it from a worldly view instead of the spiritual view? His view, that's where we. That's view, that's where we. That's where we. That's where we get confused when we let things come between. And that's what it was. That's what it was. It was about the marriage. And a lot of times when we get into relationships, we let that relationship become infatuated with that person. And then guess what that does? That slowly starts putting distance between us and the father, right, right, so what? He is a jealous God. Do you think he's like? No, he don't like that. So that is another reason why he doesn't like that adult. That's why he doesn't like that adult, that's why he doesn't like the horse, because he doesn't want anything to come between us and him in the relationship that we build with him. But the point of it is do we depend on him, do we seek him in everything?
Speaker 2:Sister Mariah go ahead and everything.
Speaker 9:Sister Mariah, go ahead. I think to your question earlier you said that what does it say about God?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what we get back to.
Speaker 9:I think that it says that he is faithful and that he is a promise keeper. Elaborate on that faithful and that he is a promise keeper, right.
Speaker 2:Elaborate on that.
Speaker 9:Well, he is faithful in all ways, in all things concerning his promises.
Speaker 2:What promise are you speaking about Specifically?
Speaker 9:Specifically, I'm speaking on the promises Of life. Yeah, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:Let me deal with this, because Blazing Rose said it Earlier in the string and I was trying to keep it up on screen and it's exactly what I was looking for and what everybody said was correct. Everything, because, you know, I'd point it out if I thought it was something off. But everybody, what everyone is saying, is dead on. But then one particular thing that I wanted to point out about what does this say about the character of God who hates divorce? We are his bride. He will never divorce us. Up against this whole idea that we, that we, all of us here and others that have been amongst us on our lives and whatnot that we always fight about on a daily, on a daily basis, about can you lose your salvation, the only way we can lose our salvation is if god divorces us. How can the one who hates divorce, how can the one who hates divorce, divorce his bride? He can't and he won't.
Speaker 2:Now my brother Greg brought up a good question. God divorced Israel. He did divorce Israel, but did he divorce his church? Did he divorce himself from his church? He divorced himself from national Israel. But we also understand that all Israel is not Israel, and so we have to make that distinction All Israel is not Israel and all Israel never was Israel. The true Israel of God are those who are justified by faith, which is what Paul is talking about in this very book, in this very book. So the Israel that he divorced was a national, physical Israel, not his spiritual body. He could never divorce himself from them, never. And in fact, as people have mentioned in the comments here in the chat about Hosea, when God tells Hosea to go marry this woman who is basically a hooker, this woman who is basically a hooker, because he wanted to show Israel what he's doing to them, I mean to him how he, how they were breaking his heart in human terms. This is what he was showing, and he was showing that he will never separate himself from the people of his love, never. God does not divorce His people that he sent his son to die for. He did that to ensure that that covenant is inseparable. It's inseparable. The covenant of works that God gave to the nation of Israel. The law, was a conditional covenant Do the law, obey the law and you will be saved.
Speaker 2:But that was something that could not be done. It was an absolute impossibility, and yet men are still boasting that that's what needs to happen in order to be saved. And there are men still today who boast and brag or tell you that you need to do it in order to be saved. And there are many people, like Paul is dealing with with the Galatian church, who believe that I'm okay with justification by grace, through faith. I'm okay with that, as long as we keep baptism or circumcision or speaking in tongues or whatever as a part of it. Paul is telling them no, he's telling them to adhere, to embrace and to adhere and to be obedient to one thing Faith in God, through Jesus, christ alone.
Speaker 2:And this is something that people find so difficult to hold to, and yet it is the easiest thing that should be done, to be done. It involves nothing on the part of man other than to acknowledge that you have a need for him, that you have a need, a heartfelt need for him to justify you before the father, because there's nothing you could bring to the table worthy of justification, up to and including and especially your will to choose or to make a decision or to accept Christ. You can't accept Christ. You won't accept Christ because your sinful nature won't permit. It can't accept Christ. You won't accept Christ because your sinful nature won't permit it. Won't permit it, try as you may.
Speaker 2:People who believe that salvation, that salvation is accomplished that way, may endure for a while, but when the cares of this life start to affect them, it will choke out what little word they had and it will dry up and they will wither away. But it is only the soul that is good ground whereby fruit springs up into eternal life. And what is the good ground? Well, what is the ground? The foundation, the basics, the bottom, the basics, what is that? It is our holy calling, our foundational promise that we have been chosen by God to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. And that ground is what the elect have, and very most of them have no idea until such time.
Speaker 2:As we talked about earlier. Fruit produces starts to produce over time. The seed starts, the seed has to be thrown out, put out there by the father, and then the seed has to take root, then the seed has to germinate, then the ground needs the sunlight and it needs watering, and so on, and so on, until the first leaf or the bud starts to appear. Then it grows up and it's young, and it goes on and on and on up until the time it grows into a full-blown tree or vine or whatever. And then you see the green fruit, which shows that it's there, which shows that it's there, which shows that it's there, but it's still not ripe yet, but it's there.