The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Lust For Forgiveness (Part 2 of 5)
What happens when we lose our reverence for God? This profound conversation explores how modern Christianity has diminished the seriousness of sin, creating a dangerous spiritual environment where transgression is trivialized and God's holiness is forgotten.
At the heart of this discussion lies a powerful truth: forgiveness represents Christian excellence at its highest form. Through personal stories of betrayal and reconciliation, we discover how true Christ-likeness often appears foolish to the world. "The world will think you are nuts, that you are a fool, that you are a doormat, but the things that the world will tell you you're stupid for forgiving - this is exactly what Christ did."
The conversation challenges popular misconceptions about forgiveness, revealing that when people say, "I can forgive, but I won't forget," they've missed the essence of genuine forgiveness. One participant shares their spiritual journey of learning to "forgive not as the world forgives, but as God does" - a transformative process requiring surrender and divine intervention.
We also examine how human depravity has remained unchanged throughout history while society's attitude toward sin has shifted dramatically from condemnation to celebration. This cultural shift prompted reflection on whether our current moral landscape mirrors the days before Noah's flood.
The most profound revelation emerges near the end: "The most powerful weapon God ever made was forgiveness." In a world obsessed with power and control, this counterintuitive truth illuminates the upside-down nature of God's kingdom. When we embrace both the gravity of sin and the greater power of forgiveness, we experience the fullness of Christ-likeness in a broken world.
Join us for this transformative conversation that will challenge your understanding of reverence, sin, and the revolutionary power of forgiveness in your spiritual journey.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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the Lord, god is to be feared, and it's a healthy, reverent, respectful fear that me personally, I think the body of Christ needs to regain because they're losing it. Um, especially like when you hear people talking on panels and it makes me and, and they don't realize, do you realize that in these conversations that you are talking about the Lord, god Almighty, here, like you know, it's, it's a heavy warning, it's, it's a heart thing and, um, I just think that we need to continue to take the word of God very seriously. It's not something to be played with. There's, like you say, all the time, there's precision involved in the word of God. It needs to be studied and his word needs to be reverenced highly.
Speaker 1:And so I mean, you know, and another thing I just want to add is what you were stating previously about, but you know, the wrath of God, the Lord Jesus Christ paid for that on the cross. And so when people start to bring up things like, you know, pre-trip and and oh, oh, jeffrey, jeffrey, um, when people start to bring things up like pre-trip and say, oh, we're not, you know, we're not appointed to wrath, hold on, read the whole verse. The word of God says we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation in Jesus Christ. This is why we are not appointed to wrath Not saying that we're not going to go through trials and tribulations and things of that nature, but we are not appointed to wrath because the wrath was taken by the Lord Jesusesus christ on our behalf and we were imputed with his righteousness. So I'm excited to hear the rest of it uh, michael, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 2:What are you going to say opening remarks?
Speaker 3:uh well, one thing I wanted to say back on our last conversation and I say this in gentleness because I understand what some of us have gone through with this but when we're talking about adultery, when we read scripture and as a husband I'm coming from this angle when Ephesians tells us that we should be light, as Christ is, to the church, to our wives, and we as men dip into that sin. It is like you saying, with divorce, saying Jesus has the right to divorce us. Well, when us husbands do this to our wives, it is like saying Jesus has the right to commit adultery on a church and he will never do that. And so that's our standard, and we should really fall to our knees crying our eyes out that we conform to him in these ways.
Speaker 3:And so, with that from the last lesson, once we figure out why we have idolatry and witchcraft and why we do it. I can't wait to talk about it.
Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to it. Brother, we're going to get into it very soon. Sit your candy. Open your remarks.
Speaker 4:I mean, I just want to say this Like you said yesterday, it's like by our nature, our hearts are hard and we're sinful and we like the wisdom. We don't know what to do. That's right, because we just don't know. It's not in our nature. But then when we come into jesus, that all changes, and I'm going to resort to romans. Where'd it go? Romans 8, 5, no, 8. Oh, that's galatians. Well, I'll go, even we'll go to galatians five.
Speaker 2:Well, you're already there, so never mind just tell us, just tell us what's in your mind.
Speaker 4:One of it is is when when when jesus calls us and we're in him and he's in us, then we, they give it. He gives us the holy spirit. So the holy spirit is the only way. So if we don't live and walk in the Spirit and it's going to go back to the surrendering of everything else, because we're made new, so that by nature of being born in the flesh, we're no longer that, it's dead. It was born dead. It remains dead. Now we live in the spirit of jesus. Crossed makes sense?
Speaker 4:yep, it makes all those until until we're, until we're born again, in spirit, that is. That's just how it's going to be. Everything that we're, we're talking about right now, all those things that's right, that's right. Absolutely all those things. That's right, that's right, absolutely One's no different from the other. With God, if you commit one, he's committed them all Right. One's no greater, one's no least. Amen the best part about it is when we have the Holy Spirit, he changes all of that to the ones. That's beautiful. That we'll talk about later on.
Speaker 2:He does God's word.
Speaker 6:Next word Well, I can't really speak on being married because I've never been married, but I have had a relationship with God. And as far as a certificate of divorce, if you'll read Jeremiah, you'll turn to Jeremiah 3 and read verses 8 through 11. It'll kind of tie us into what you're getting ready to go into. Because of the faithlessness of Israel turning to idols and other wickedness during the time of Jeremiah, he gave Israel, the faithless Israel. He called them a whore in that day. He gave them a certificate of divorce because they were faithless to him. And I, even though I've never been married in the flesh, I have been married to our Lord and there is no way that I am ever going to be faithless to him.
Speaker 6:So if I was ever, if it was his will that I have a wife then being holy as he would. I would not want to be faithless to my wife, but as far as speaking on the go, I can't do that because I've never been married to a woman. But if you would read the, you know what Jeremiah 3, you don't have to read it you know what it says. So I was just going to point that out.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother. Appreciate that Sister Lisa open up your remarks.
Speaker 7:Hey everybody. Well, I open up your mark. Hey everybody. Um, well, I'm just super excited for tonight because, um, I think these are the lessons that we miss out a lot. Um, um, the churches don't speak on this stuff and it's so important. Most of us, or many of us, not many of us have been married more than once and I think in the past you don't realize the seriousness of it. And when you're born again, you know, you read scripture and the book of Hosea is the perfect example. I sob when I read the book. Just, I could feel the sadness in the Lord, you know, and yet his love remains true, you know.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 7:I just I'm excited to hear these. I think we need to be reminded and, being Christians and born again, we really can take it, take it to heart. So I thank you for this subject matter actually.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sister, brother, jay anything you want to add.
Speaker 5:The subject is adultery tonight. Pardon me, what is the subject?
Speaker 2:We're in the works of the flesh, galatians 5, 19 through 21.
Speaker 5:All right, I just wanted to check in. All right, I just wanted to just check in.
Speaker 2:All right, that's all right, brother. Hang in here. We'll get back to you later on, okay.
Speaker 5:Can I still have my opening remarks?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, sure, Go ahead, go ahead, absolutely.
Speaker 5:So you know our name of Jesus says to the was it Peter, when he was on the mountain, on the mount, he said for the spirit is wrong, but the flesh is weak. And so it said we inherited the sinful nations, both our and his. So we are. We were made dead in our sins. Right, it says in Ephesians. That's right. So God is the one that helped us to realize that, through the Holy Spirit, that we are sinners, that we had announced our sins to God, that we sinned against God and turned to Jesus Christ for salvation, to great in faith alone. Right? So that's my opening remarks.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother Jay. I appreciate that, you know. The thing is, brethren, is that I think that even when we talk about sin and sinners, somehow somewhere along the line the sting of what this means has been diminished, and I think largely because many of us have you all wish and hope to do in your lifetime to make people understand the sinfulness of sin, how significant it is and how it requires God to do the most tempestuous things when it comes to judgment that men deserve, in such a way that there's no amount of time that can fulfill the requirement or do to sin. But sin has become a light thing. It's become a light thing in people's minds.
Speaker 2:It's like a word that has been taken to be a joke Sin. What is sin? You know. And so the problem is this only happens, it can only happen, when we Stop taking it seriously. I see these clowns come on these platforms and they're trying to get people to laugh their way into the kingdom of God, joking about sacred things so that people thinking that people can be entertained into repentance. It can't be, it cannot be. It is a serious thing. May go ahead.
Speaker 1:I just want to say that just as an example. So my grandmother and my grandfather God rest their soul. But my grandfather committed adultery on my grandmother and even it got to one point that, like she begged him not to leave and so she did, you know, he did leave and they got a divorce, but then my grandmother married my step-grandfather, who ended up as a we lost you Meg. You hear me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear you now Go ahead, you alright.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Come on, but I know so my step grandfather Essayed me as a child for like four years of my life and like after he went to jail and he started calling her because she had left at first, and then, you know, she ended up staying with him until she died and we never understood why she never left.
Speaker 1:And it was because of her faith, and she always talked about it. She's like, you know, the first time something happened but then she left, she never left him, and like we couldn't understand it. But like when you're sitting here talking about it today, it kind of just makes me feel joyful, I guess, because like, no matter what she went through and no matter what happened in her life, like it was never about anybody else but the Lord and like she was faithful to Him and so, even though that she was like living in the house with somebody who did that to her granddaughter, she still stayed and it wasn't because of anything else but her faith, and that's what she said the entire time. And so I guess it just kind of makes me emotional, like when we're talking about things like this, because, like the things that people go through and have been through, like the faith that she had, and knowing that it wasn't even about anything, whether she was happy or whatever was, it was her faith in the Lord that she stayed.
Speaker 2:If you, let me tell you something, sister, and this is for everybody, every Christian, because by our title, our descriptor, christian, it means those who are Christ-like. We want to be Christ-like and, sister Meg, you have nothing to be sorry about, because here's the thing your grandmother that you're talking about, think about this for a second. She was being Christ-like Christians. Let me tell you something If you want to be Christ-like, you have to be willing to do things like that. And I'm going to tell you something. The world is going to think you are nuts, that you are a fool. Then you are a doormat, but the things that the world will tell you you're stupid for forgiving.
Speaker 2:This is exactly what Christ did. This is what he did and this is what he does. And you think that he did what he did for you and me, that he did it to absolve you from having to do what he did, when he is the one who told us that we are here to complete the affliction that he left behind for us. It is, you know to see. These are the things, like sister said, people don't want to talk about this. Stop sleeping around. These are the things, like sister said. People don't want to talk about this. Stop sleeping around, stop jumping from bed to bed, stop whoring yourself out, stop turning your back on people who sinned against you, because we do it to Christ every day. I hope you understand this, because this is what Christ is trying to get us to understand. I had a little bit of a trial today, so forgive me If my passion is a little bit more Elevated than normal, but these things have to be understood If you want to know what being Christlike is. But these things have to be understood If you want to know what being Christlike is. Allow yourself to go through and to forgive these things that you find so egregious in other people, even though you neglect to see how you are to other people. And I'm not pointing a finger at anybody, I'm not pointing a finger that I can't point at myself.
Speaker 2:Multiple times over, you don't get to be a nearly 61 years old and not having had your share of a whole lot of sin and remorse and guilt and fear. But we, as human creatures, we are diabolical souls saved by grace, are diabolical souls, saved by grace, but diabolical. We accept the fact that in trust and believe that Christ has forgiven us for all of our filth, that he sees with us. You think it gave you a license to be given free to continue. But what does he tell us? To be like him? In what capacity? Forgiveness, love, patience, forbearing. The list goes on. Brother Jeff, man of God, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 8:You know what I wanted to point out again. You know, being the history guy not exclusively, I'm sure a lot of other people here like history too. So you look back in history and you read about details of how people lived and everything. It's never changed. It's never changed. I mean the degree of lasciviousness and evil, immoral behavior has been present since the time before Noah and the world got sponge clean. I mean it has not changed one whit. But the problem is the attitude toward it has changed.
Speaker 8:Now that may be true for those times also, but it's certainly true today that people go well, you know, live and let live. You know, do whatever you want to do. I can't tell you. You know who to suck it. To Remember that song yeah, being almost 71, I've certainly had my share and witnessed my share. But I mean it's, it's what it is. I mean it's like it just seems like people are becoming more open about it, like it's fine. You know you want to dress up like a dog, or you know you want to go, have people tie you up and beat you and all this other stuff and have sex with you. I mean that's just okay, that's your thing. But then I envision God, as you know, I mean, like Jonathan Edwards, sinners in the hands of an angry God.
Speaker 5:Woo, can you?
Speaker 8:imagine what an angry God looks like.
Speaker 2:I'm going to take one day, one live session and read that sermon to everybody. Yeah, that'd be great, I have to read that one. I want to read that to everybody. Yeah, I mean it's amazing, yeah.
Speaker 8:Well, michael had chimed in after me, so I got it, I got that I'll.
Speaker 2:I'll see him go ahead, brother michael, go ahead so I was gonna touch base.
Speaker 3:but uh, jeff, you saying uh something about, uh, the days of Noah and stuff like that. It always makes me wonder how wicked was it back then to make God want to judge the whole world and then compare that to our wickedness of today and I'm always blown away to the fact that we're not at that same wickedness yet. My all mill mind kind of comes in and says we're not even close to the wickedness of Noah, or there would be another judgment and think about how wicked we are. So that just blows my mind all the time. It's like I can't imagine it getting any worse than it is.
Speaker 8:Yeah well, michael, it is that worse.
Speaker 5:I think it is too.
Speaker 8:I mean the reason why God promised Noah after the flood. He said I'll never do this again. But it doesn't mean he wasn't going to hold the world in judgment, because Jesus I think it was Jesus said this that the next time it's going to be with fire, right right, and the second thing I wanted to say on this.
Speaker 3:oh man, I just forgot it. I'm not as old as you guys, but my memory is going.
Speaker 2:That's all right. All right, come back to me. Just let me hear in the comments, in the chat, when you come back to it okay, brother, jay, go ahead Jay. And then Meg, brother, jay, go ahead Brother.
Speaker 5:Jay, all, right, now I can speak. No, what I was going to say. You have people who are on TikTok and what I call hyper grace. They can say, oh, I can send all I want and God will forgive me. That's not the way it works with being a Christian. We are to be obedient to Jesus Christ, to God, we are told to be obedient, and these people don't realize that we are to serve Jesus Christ with all our heart and all our soul and all mind. We are to be obedient. So if they say that you can sin all you want, that's cheap grace, right, jonathan Right. So that's what bothers me with some of these people. And there was one comment that was in line before and they said confession is a work, confession is a work. First John 8 to 10? That's not a work. I don't know where they're getting that from.
Speaker 2:I hear you, brother, you're right, I hear you so.
Speaker 5:I'm done with what I have to say.
Speaker 2:All right, we'll come back to you.
Speaker 1:I don't want him to forget.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, michael. Go ahead, then we'll go to Meg next. Go ahead, brother.
Speaker 3:Thank you, sister. So yeah, and Jonah actually just put something down in there that kind of hits on this. But what I'm seeing now are tears in my mind because we got to remember a lot of what we do will mimic. Also, you know, when we sin, it's going to look like sins of the world. I mean, it's two categories.
Speaker 3:The true, elect believer is always going to be like when Paul talks about he hates what he does because that whole long thing. I always mess up paraphrasing it because of the amount of hates and I don't and I do. But we do things we hate. Now we still do that, we still sin, and so, and sometimes we get caught in a sin that we may do over and over while we're battling it, while we're praying, while we're looking for others, for accountability and so forth.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the difference is where we hate that we're doing it Right and we want to conform to Christ. We hate that we're doing it Right and we want to conform to Christ, whereas I see a lot of people in the church. They have been told the truth to their face and they say I'm okay, I'm free, I'll just, I'll be forgiven later and I'm like I don't think it's going to work that way for you. It's like why would? No, that's not how it's going to be. So there's a willfulness there and you're literally throwing God's forgiveness in his face and saying, oh, you're going to do this, I'm going to be this way and you're going to still forgive me.
Speaker 2:Right, right, absolutely, absolutely. It's so true. You know, sometimes there is and I see this a lot, and I'm going to you next, meg, and then Evie there is this inordinate obsession with sin and all room for sin to take an occasion against us. You know, I get sick of like whenever I hear people talk about you know. You know I rebuke Satan and whatever. I'm like. You're an idiot.
Speaker 2:All we have to do, like James 4, 7 says, just resist it. We don't need to have a conversation and parlay with him. We don't need to do that. We're told in the scriptures to simply resist it, just resist. And I'm going to tell you something. I know it is true. I'm going to tell you something. I know it is true. I'm telling you test me and see if I'm telling the truth. When you feel yourself getting ready to engage in anything that you feel is not compliant with godliness and holiness, when you willfully in your mind, in your heart, acknowledge, acknowledge the Lord, jesus Christ, and beg for his assistance, in that very moment he will offer it, he will give it. I'm telling you, he does it every time and I can't explain it. I can't explain it, but he always does. He always does. Meg go ahead. Was it Meg or was it? Let me see?
Speaker 1:No, it was me and then maybe yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, then maybe, yeah, okay I, I just think that, like, when we think about things like this, we also think of the power of forgiveness, like whom, whom has been forgive, forgiven, forgive as much, and like I just I think that is like the epitome of Coming to that realization about forgiveness.
Speaker 1:I, I, I could do a whole talk on forgiveness just because of what I've been through, but it is such. It is one of the most beautiful things To see when we forgive somebody who has truly hurt us or damaged us in ways that are incomparable, to see the goodness of God in forgiveness and and it it does so much in your life. And so I just can't express to people enough, like forgiveness is so powerful because we serve a God who, when we see these things and we recognize how filthy and wicked people are, but he loved us while we were yet sinners his standard is perfection. You know what I mean, and and it just makes me so grateful, and so I just I think that that's really important to talk about when it comes to things like this.
Speaker 2:Is the absolute Peak Apex Of godliness. It's the, it's the peak. It is the peak of godliness Because it requires you To be See. I want to say this when you say, when people say, I can forgive, but I won't forget, that's not forgiveness. It's not. That's not forgiveness, no.
Speaker 1:And I just want to say one more thing on my journey personally, I remember the Holy Spirit like when I was 26 and I had to take this journey. I, the Holy Spirit, says I am about to take you on a journey and I am going to teach you how to forgive, not as the world forgives, but as I do. And I'm going to tell you something Just when you think that you have forgiven somebody, the enemy is going to try and show you why you didn't. And I'm going to tell you something. I'm telling you, brother, I can forgive anybody for anything. And it is so powerful and it comes from the Lord Jesus Christ alone. It is the most powerful thing that the believer can do. It is just phenomenal. I could talk about forgiveness so much, Brother Jonathan.
Speaker 2:I know man, I know, but listen, you can take. We are living in a twisted time where men are obsessed with bombs and all this stuff, all this wickedness and all this stuff that's going on in the world. The most powerful weapon ever made was forgiveness. It is the most powerful weapon God ever made. It is the most powerful Weapon God ever made Forgiveness and, as a Christian, I want to make sure Everyone understands this. Forgiveness Is Christian Excellence At it's highest, is Christian excellence at its highest. Forgiveness is Christian excellence at the highest. It involves love.