The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Lust For Forgiveness (Part 3 of 5)
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Love. It involves humility. It involves seeing God's glory and understanding it. I'm trying to tell you, if you really want to know what godliness is, learn forgiveness and stop making all these stupid, rational shortcuts to rationalize why this person doesn't deserve to be forgiven. I'm telling you it is the most powerful tool in your Christian repertoire, your Christian arsenal Forgiveness.
Speaker 2:Now you make me want to tell my testimony, brother Jonathan. I'm in line because I cannot, I can, it gets me me excited, it is so true. It it literally frees you completely. You are you, you have been literally set free, when you can forgive anybody and everything, for everything, because oh man.
Speaker 1:But here's what? But here's forgiveness does free you. But here's the thing god didn't forgive us. Christ didn't forgive us because it frees him. He forgave us because it frees us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when we forgive, we should be seeking not only our own freedom, but seeking the freedom of the person we're forgiving. Amen.
Speaker 1:Amen, wow, sister Lisa go ahead Say something.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say this. It's so huge because I think it's one of the most difficult things, because our flesh wants to hang on to it. I think it's more difficult than anything but, like everyone was saying, that's why it makes it. It makes us so Christ-like when we do it. But it's yeah, it's necessary. And somebody put in the comments how can I forgive when they don't ask to be forgiven? And my thoughts are we don't forgive them for them. We forgive them for a couple of other reasons, mainly because God told us to Right.
Speaker 4:We are being obedient.
Speaker 3:And then it brings us those. He forgave us, so we must also forgive.
Speaker 1:That's all, absolutely, sister Candy. Go ahead.
Speaker 5:I just want to say back when God was really, really, really really changing me after my kid, that forgiveness that's a hard one to swallow, sometimes in the flesh, in the worldly view, but I'll never forget the one thing I had to think about. But I'll never forget the one thing I had to think about that one day I hope to never experience it, but that's why I knew with me, putting her, giving her back to God. I knew she would be okay, he would take care of her, keep her safe and protected. But I had to ask myself, if someone did to my child, what happened with Meg and others?
Speaker 5:How do you forgive them, god? And he said you can't, but with me you can't and it will be okay, you will be able to, but he's the only way that we can do that. But I'll never forget. So it's like how do you forgive, by the grace of God, by his love, his patience, and when we look at all the things throughout us growing up in this walk of the sanctification being done, all the things that we fall short every day. We have to be with others, like he is with us, but, yeah, how do you forgive people who do these things that we're discussing in this verse?
Speaker 1:You know, the thing is is that the thing is, forgiveness is a tough thing to do, but it is truly what I said it is. It is the absolute excellence of Godliness.
Speaker 5:It sets you free. It literally will set you free. It allows you to to breathe. It allows it. It's a weight, it it. It frees you from that bondage, of that hate but it's also that bondage of anger. It allows you to be able to actually love.
Speaker 1:But it also shows to the person willing to do it that they know who Christ is. It's an indication of that.
Speaker 5:It makes them feel thankful too.
Speaker 1:And they know what he's done. They know what he's done for them and they know what he's done. They know what he's done for them. See, the reason why people don't forgive, the reason why people listen, the reason why people do not forgive is because they don't understand how significant their own sin is in the presence of the thrice holy God. This is the problem. People who don't forgive don't see themselves as the sinners that they really are, and so they judge by man's judgment, not by God's judgment. See, because this is and this is what that, this is what that whole. I can't think of it right now.
Speaker 1:The parable about the, when Christ talks about how the one guy Was forgiven His debt. Remember the parable that Christ gave about the one guy who had all this debt and he couldn't pay? The Lord, the master or the vineyard or whatever it was, he couldn't pay him. So then the master forgave him because he had so much debt he couldn't pay it back. But then he was forgiven of his debt. But then he went and brutalized those who owed him debts after the fact. So the thing about it is brutalize those who owed him debts after the fact. So the thing about it is he had to be forgiven, something that was impossible for him to pay. And when he was forgiven for what was impossible for him to pay, he went and started beating up his servants because they couldn't pay him. That's how man is I want to be forgiven, but I'm not going to forgive you. Man wants to be forgiven by God, but he doesn't want to forgive anybody. Sister, evie, go ahead evie and then jay that's um, that's um.
Speaker 6:tough, you know that's, it's a tough reality. But you know, as believers, we're told not to give heart. Right, because paul talked about running this good race, right, and then he also talks about follow the spirit's lead, right, right, but he knows, because he talks about what I want to do. I should, you know what I should do. I don't do what you know. So he understands it Right. But the fight is, is is not ours to win. See, that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 6:So when I think about it right, when I think about giving all understanding to who God is, it's almost like you ever see professionals dance Like. That's how I see the illustration in my head, brother. Like professionals, when they dance right, like Sasa, right, professionals. The man is leading, god is leading his children, he's leading, they're in sync, they move, he's leading there. In sync, they, they move like. And then when, when she falls, though because when she falls, it's they pick it right back up and it gets back into that flow, and so that's what he does to us, that's what he does to us, and there's no deserving of that, once you understand that. But yet he does in the love and and he gives us the understanding in the scriptures that says I know that you're going to fall short, but I'm going to give you my spirit and you're going to fight yourself every day, because it's a soul battle.
Speaker 1:Amen, sister. Yes, amen, brother Jay, go ahead and speak brother. Amen, brother Jay, go ahead and speak, brother. Come on Jay.
Speaker 4:What I want to say is that my father, I would say about maybe 10 years ago he committed a major crime, something that was very bad. Ten years ago he committed a major crime, something that was very bad, so he went to jail for it. And not only that. See, let me even backtrack on that a little bit. See, my parents abused us, physically abused us as children. I remember getting hit by him, by my mother, and my own relatives on my father's side reported him to the state, to the state authorities. So we were all taken away by my parents. I had three sisters. Two of my sisters got adopted, my other sister was placed under guardianship and I was placed under foster care. So we got back together with my parents and I forgave them. I forgave them and also I forgave my father for going to jail. This is something I had to do. I had to show love and compassion. If you look at the example of Mary, the woman at the well in John 4, he knew that woman was an adulterer. Right, he knew it.
Speaker 7:Yep.
Speaker 4:And that's why that woman said oh, you must be a prophet of God.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:So he showed love and compassion. He didn't say, oh, you're an adulterer, god's going to condemn you. No, he didn't say that he had love and compassion on that woman. We, as Christians, have to show love and compassion on that woman. We, as Christians, have to show love and compassion to everyone.
Speaker 4:And they can be the worst of sinners. Look at the example of the Apostle Paul right here's a man that smothered people, right Christians, and yet God met him on the road and he said why are you persecuting me? He didn't say persecuting Christians, why are you doing it to me. And yet, when Paul was speaking with Jesus Christ, that changed his whole life. He knew that he sinned against God, and yet Jesus forgave him right.
Speaker 7:Yep.
Speaker 4:So that's all I have to say.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother. Before I go to Michael, I want to read something that my sister Bobby says. If you guys see the comments, take a look at it, because what she said is heavy. Thank you, sister Bobby. I love you to death, sister, you know I do. She says forgiveness has a stronghold on the person who doesn't forgive, not on the one that you can't forgive. Look at that, because that is dead on. It's dead on. Forgiveness has the stronghold on the person who doesn't or can't forgive, not on the one that you can't forgive. And this is important to understand, because what she says there is completely right. Brother michael, go ahead, tell us something, brother, all right.
Speaker 7:Well, hopefully we can break this stronghold with what I'm about to say. So we go to second peter, uh one, starting in uh five, real quick. So, for this very reason, also applying all diligence in your faith, supply moral excellence and in your moral excellence. Knowledge and in your knowledge. Self-control and in your self-control. Perseverance and in your faith supply moral excellence and in your moral excellence. Knowledge and in your knowledge. Self-control and in your self-control. Perseverance and in your perseverance. Godliness and in your godliness. Brotherly kindness and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor unproductive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the one who lacks these qualities is blind and short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
Speaker 7:And so I say this because I always hear the forgiveness stuff on. You know, forgiveness is for the person that's forgiving people and stuff. And I've never seen it that way. I've always seen it as if we go to our brother, now one. We have two categories of people one, a brother and sister in Christ. We go to them and if we tell them they have sinned against us and all this stuff, and we and we do the forgiveness during that time and they accept it, then we win a brother, we win a sister time and they accept it. Then we win a brother, we win a sister, we win them back, we win their. You know, uh, I'm paraphrasing that uh scripture, but it goes along with like Matthew 18 and stuff.
Speaker 7:Now, if it's an unbeliever that does us wrong, what right do we have any to hold anything against them? Anyways, they don't even know what they're doing. They're literally the people stoning Stephen putting Jesus on the cross. Forgive them. They know not what they do. And so we need to get to a place where we forgive easily, because there's going to be plenty of people out there. They have no clue what they're doing, because they don't even believe in Christ. They have no clue what they're doing because they don't even believe in Christ. And then the brother and sister that does us wrong. We want to win them back and so we go, forgive them easily, because it's about winning them back and getting them back in the fold, like the man in first and second Corinthians sleeping with his stepmom. We don't do these things so that they can be condemned. We do these things so they can see they're wrong and they repent and we go back to brotherly love and going back to just how things were.
Speaker 1:Man, you're so right, brother, michael. Man, I can't. Man, I'm telling you right now because what you're saying is just, it's heartbreaking, because it's so true and it's so easy. I can't say it's easy, but it's definitely true because people, even as Christians, we try to find whatever justification we can to not forgive. So somehow somebody made up this stupid little cliche that has become circulated in Christian circles that you don't forgive unless they want to be forgiven. Who said that? Because I have not read that in the scriptures and the last time I checked, no one that the Lord Jesus Christ forgave wanted to be forgiven, no one. This is the problem that people have. They start thinking that these crazy things, that God does things. When you do something, if you want to be forgiven, then he will forgive. No, he forgave me when I wasn't looking for it. I wasn't looking for him. No, go ahead, michael.
Speaker 7:I'll say one more thing on this Cause. Uh, as, as someone that's always been considered a a manly man, you know, I was in the Marines and so forth. I was law enforcement and all this stuff, Right. I'll tell you right now forgiving someone will never make you the weaker person that's right Ever. There's nothing weak in forgiving. Our Lord Jesus bore the sins on a cross. There's nothing weak about that. And if this world wants to call me weak because I forgive people easily, fine, Let them call me weak. I'm set free already. I'm not pleasing the world, I'm pleasing my Lord.
Speaker 1:That's my brother right there talking. That's my brother, michael, talking right now. That's the truth. That's the truth. That's the truth. See, the world has everything twisted Brother. I'm thanking you so much for that, so much because it is so true, strength, that so much so, because it is so true, strength, paul says our strength is made perfect. How, how, brother Michael? Nobody else has to answer this, michael. How is our strength made perfect?
Speaker 7:In our weakness. Amen brother.
Speaker 1:In our weakness. That's when we are the most powerful, when we are exercising that which we have no ability To exercise. That is something only a Christian can understand, because you have to be given the ears, the eyes and the heart and the mind to understand this thing. What my brother Michael just said, I can't add or improve upon that at all. I can shut down this message tonight, and what he said is all that needs to be said. It is the truth. It is the truth forgiving someone who hates you, who doesn't love you, who has no desire to change. When you forgive them, you tell them I'm going to tell you something, just being able to tell them I forgive you. I don't care if you forgive me or whatever. I forgive you anyway. It's powerful, it's powerful. It's powerful.
Speaker 1:You don't need a gun to be powerful. You don't need some kind of policy agenda that you need to embrace to be powerful. You don't need to be aligned with a particular group of people To be powerful. What you need is to exhibit weakness, humility, under the submission of Christ, and you have attached yourself to unlimited, an unlimited source of power that nothing can overcome. Nothing can overcome it. Stop thinking like mortals, stop thinking like humans. Stop thinking like sinners. Start thinking like our Lord Evie. Go ahead, sister.
Speaker 6:I don't know who else is getting jacked up by today, but I know that I am. I'm going to tell you one thing right now. I'm just going to give you just one day. I just want to give my testimony about my marriage. I've been with Nick I just sent him this because I'm getting so rocked by it, and he's inside and I'm on my porch and I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 6:You know, it's not an easy thing when real serious things happen in your marriage. Do you know what I'm saying? And you really feel like you're just doing so much. We feel like we're owed something. You're just serving the Lord, you're singing, you're doing this and doing that, and then when something crazy happens in your marriage, right that you don't even know, god used it to save your husband right Out of his funk, his circumstances, and I can see a complete change in my husband that others do, and it's just this beautiful thing.
Speaker 6:And I remember, before knowing what happened, I wrote him a note and I was worshiping the Lord and I know nothing that was going on. And I'm worshiping the Lord. I'm like you know what? God? I'm going to give this to you. I'm not going to try nothing, I'm not going to do nothing. I'm going to pray, I'm going to worship you, I'm going to surrender to you, I'm going to do all of these things and waiting on you, lord, and what you want.
Speaker 6:And then, when everything went good, right, I brought it back up, though. So, so I was battling with did I even forgive, because it holds no record of wrong, wrong, right? And I really battled with that because I'm like, if you have forgiven, why are you bringing things back up? Does he say to you hey, I remember in such and such years you was, you know, toking it up or doing whatever. You know, I'm gonna bring that back up to you, I'm gonna tell, to tell you about yourself. He's not doing that to us. But yet in this flesh, I'm not thinking about how I'm forgiven daily. And as soon as something is triggered, you know I'm going to put my little quotes at my trigger, right, because that's an excuse, I think. And I'm talking to myself. You know it's not an easy thing, because if you look, it's connected. Forgiveness is connected with love, and if you read that passage of what love is, it will just yeah, you'll be checking yourself, like I, like I have been.
Speaker 1:You know what, evie, what you're saying is so true because here's the thing. You know what, evie, what you're saying is so true because here's the thing Love, love is action, it's action, it's action. Jesus himself, he never really, he never really said to people that I love you, Except for a few people in this inner circle who are already believers. But his love has been exhibited in every aspect of our humanity. The very fact that this earth still spins today is evidence of his love, evidence of his love. And see, the thing about it is, you know, he gave himself for us. He was sacrificial. But here's the thing. The thing is, forgiveness for mankind, really for us, the ability to be able to forgive is the ultimate expression, to the degree that it can be exhibited, of being sacrificial. We are saying that it's important for us that we make that person feel that we have no more hostility toward them. Well, what did Christ do? He died for us. For what? So that we would know that there is no more hostility leveled against us by God. And you have Christians out there who don't want to teach and preach about hell because they don't want to tell people the reality of what we're being saved from. But what does forgiveness do? Is our Lord telling us? I have no more, nothing against you whereby I intend to extend to you the wrath you deserve. Like my sister says, it frees us, jesus. John 8, 32, he says that he makes you free. Indeed, forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Forgiveness is not just saying that I'm no longer going to hold you accountable for the wrong you did to me. Forgiveness assumes that a wrong was done. It assumes that a wrong was done. It assumes that a wrong was done, so you're forgiving. You're forgiving them for the wrong that was done. This is what a pardon is. Forgiveness is to be pardoned. Your debt is forgiven. You owe me the debt, for sure, but I've been giving you of that debt. The crime you committed is your crime. You did it, but I'm going to pardon you. The pardon assumes you committed a crime. Pardon you. The pardon assumes you committed a crime. If you didn't, there will be no need for a pardon. If you did no wrong, there's no need for forgiveness. So when people talk about well, I forgive you for your sins, but I won't forget, that's not forgiveness. And if that's your position, what if the Lord has that same perspective and deals with you the same way? This is what's wrong. This is what is wrong.
Speaker 1:You got people on these platforms and in these live things trying to debate predestination and whether or not water baptism is sufficient for salvation or necessary for salvation, or whether you do this, but we don't get the basics right. We don't get the basics. Forgiveness, love, patience, forbearance these are the things that characterize what our Savior did for us. I don't, you know, there are lots of things that we can argue about On a theological Field, but if you can't get forgiveness, what are we talking about? What else are we going to talk about?
Speaker 1:I'm not sure we could, but for what I've seen, people on this platform rip the spines out of people Just to win an argument, even when they're wrong. That's why I don't do it no more, even when they're wrong. That's why I don't do it no more. I don't do it no more. I was a spine ripper, out or over. I don't do it anymore. It's a fruitless endeavor. I want to learn more about forgiveness. I want to know more about what it means to love. That's what I want to know. It took me too long in life to understand that, to my detriment. But God is good and he's merciful. He's merciful and it always, constantly, reminds me that he's not done with me yet. To you, it may look like he's just about done with me but he's not.
Speaker 1:Brother Michael, go ahead, brother, tell us something.
Speaker 7:I'm trying to find it One. We have the Lord's Prayer Forgive us of our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. So these are things that should be easily done by us, because we know we want forgiveness for our sins quickly and easily, and so I'm trying to find it, where it talks about Now, if you're the person that has offended someone and again we got to remember this is, this is when we're talking to brothers and sisters in Christ. Right, everybody doesn't live this way. Now, if we have offended someone, we should go seek forgiveness. We should be accountable for the sins we've done against each other, and we should go to that brother. We should go to that sister and tell them hey, I did this against you and I'm trying.
Speaker 7:I think it's in Matthew 5. It's not worded that way, but I can't find it. But it's basically saying if you have anything that you're going to bring to the altar and you know that you have a brother that has something against you, meaning you did something to them. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. You need to go get reconciled.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go be reconciled before you bring your gift to the altar. I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 7:Yeah, and so there's another side of this for believers.
Speaker 1:Candy. You can find that verse Candy, but go ahead, mike Keep talking.
Speaker 7:Yeah, there's just another side of this. It's not only forgiving people, but we don't remember. Hold on michael.
Speaker 1:Here it is. Go ahead. Pancakes got it, hannah got it. Matthew 5, 23. Okay, what do you want? I'll read it. You tell me where to stop. Jesus says in verse 22 of matthew 5 but I say unto you that whomsoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment. Whosoever shall say to his brother, raka, shall be in danger of the council, but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if you bring thy gift to the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave there your gift before the altar and go thy way. First be reckless, out to your brother and then come and offer your gift. Is that what you?
Speaker 7:meant yes, yeah. And so there's two sides to this. For the Christian right, we have to easily forgive, and if we know we have done someone wrong because we're not just sinning against God all the time, we're sinning against people too there's a vertical and a horizontal to this. That's another reason why we should forgive easily, because there's going to be a day where we may have made a comment about someone Right and we need to go ask hey, I made this comment about you. You know, I know you have nothing, you don't even know I made this comment about you, but I need to forgive it. Be forgiven, because this is what I said, right. And so there's. There's another side of forgiving and seeking forgiveness all the time.
Speaker 1:Yep, well, I'm going to add another facet to this Diamond Brother, and that is when someone forgives you, right, when someone forgives you, you have to accept that forgiveness, meaning that here's what I'm saying, because you covered two things, and it makes me think about A third piece that Sometimes Men are full of pride. So Somebody says and here's what I mean, you'll see what I'm talking about when I say this Some people.