The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Lust For Forgiveness (Part 4 of 5)
Forgiveness lies at the heart of Christian faith, yet remains one of our greatest challenges. This powerful conversation strips away the misconceptions about what true forgiveness actually means.
Many believers mistakenly wait for an apology before extending forgiveness, but this reveals our pride rather than Christ's example. As one participant powerfully states, "The issue isn't whether or not you recognize what you did. The issue is that person believes there's something they want to forgive you for." When we prioritize being right over healing relationships, we miss the transformative power of forgiveness.
The discussion takes a vulnerable turn as participants share their personal struggles with forgiveness - from domestic disagreements to deep childhood trauma. One testimony particularly resonates: a woman who forgave her abuser and even comforted him during his time of grief. Her story demonstrates how forgiveness isn't about excusing harmful behavior, but freeing ourselves to show Christ's love even in impossible situations.
Biblical insights anchor the conversation, particularly Jesus's command to forgive "seventy times seven" - not a mathematical limit, but a call to boundless grace. This unlimited forgiveness reflects God's own mercy toward us, which wasn't dependent on our acknowledgment of sin but freely given to draw us to Him.
Perhaps most striking is the raw honesty throughout the dialogue. Rather than presenting themselves as spiritual experts, these believers openly confess their daily struggles: "I don't ever want anybody to think I'm in some better place. I struggle, I fight, I have problems, just like all of you." This transparency creates space for authentic growth and community.
Whether you're wrestling with forgiving someone who deeply hurt you or seeking to understand what Christ-like forgiveness really means, this conversation offers both challenging truth and compassionate guidance. The transformative power of forgiveness begins when we stop waiting for others to deserve it and start extending it as freely as Christ extended it to us.
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will say I forgive you, brother, and that brother will go forgive me for what I didn't do anything to you. But see, that is pride, because the issue isn't whether or not you recognize what you did or not. The issue is that person believes there's something they want to forgive you for, which means that somehow, someway, they were hurt by something you did. It doesn't matter if you felt it was wrong or not, except the forgiveness, because what you're doing is you're establishing or reestablishing the relationship and making it whole again. People don't understand what's important. Brother Michael, what do you think?
Speaker 2:Again, talking about, you know, being a man and knowing what pride and arrogance is, that's me a hundred percent. Uh, uh, I I mean, yeah, that's just me a hundred percent. I don't even like talking about myself now. I just absolutely. You know, if I have to fill out and I know I may be a little bit too extreme with it or fundamental with it but if I have to fill out, like a profile or something, I have the hardest time doing it and uh, and I just don't ever want to step into that uh area where I highlight myself. But I'll tell you this we've already been set free, so it's now, it's time to live in it Right. And those, those ways and the way you just talked about forgiving and seeking forgiveness too, that should be us automatically. That that just. And I know it's hard. I'm not saying we should all be on the same page and stuff, but I really think you should diligently get there, because it's so peaceful when you can look at people through the lens of Christ and know they need him Right. That's part of it.
Speaker 2:Anytime someone does you wrong, you know they need Christ. That's the only reason they're doing that Right and instead of thinking of, well, I just won't forgive them. How can I get Christ to them? Yep, that could be our first thought. That's right, they're doing this to me. They could be doing this to other people. How do I get Christ to them? And if they don't want Christ, they're not a call, they're just not called and I get that, and then they're an unbeliever, so we should not expect anything better from them, that's right, but the thing that we've been establishing is that, whether they want to accept it or not, nothing precludes us from being able to be forgiving and to love on them the best way that we should, the way Christ loved us.
Speaker 2:Our mind should be set on filling our storehouse in heaven. That's right. That's what our mind should be filled on, and if that means we forgive every single person that has done us wrong and it brings one of them to christ, we're gonna see that person in heaven. Amen, brother, that's what counts that's my brother Michael.
Speaker 1:You guys listen to him. That's my brother, michael. Tell them the truth. Sister Candy, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I just want to agree with him because in forgiving first, that's the first step to show them God. You know what I'm saying. That is that first step of them seeing the love them God. You know what I'm saying. That is that first step of them seeing the love of God. So I just wanted to say that about the forgiveness part and being the one to go to someone and ask for that forgiveness Even that part, asking for the forgiveness because it's heavy on their heart, yep, they need that. And then when you go to someone and go ahead and forgive them anyway, for they know not what they do- Right.
Speaker 3:That's that sign of love, that's how people see God. That's a fruit.
Speaker 1:Yep, Absolutely sister.
Speaker 6:Sister Evie, go ahead. I just want to say are we practicing this in our own homes? Are we practicing this with our own husbands? Are we practicing this with our own wives? Are we practicing this with our own children? Are they seeing us, you know, in repentance and hugging each other and praying together with the madness of the world and the business of the world. You know, like I'm, I'm, I'm. This is really rocking me today. I don't know who else this is rocking to the core, but it's definitely rocking me because it starts at home. You know, we can be whatever we want to everybody else on the street and who we encounter and every single day. Are we doing this at home? Are we forgiving our spouses? Are we having attitudes towards them, grudges? You know what I'm saying, brother.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'll tell you. I'm telling you right now, with all of you, because one thing that I don't want to do, one thing I never want to do, is come up here, have these discussions, these Bible studies that we've been having, or whatever, and then act like I'm above all of this, because I can tell you, my wife and I got into it tonight and it's fine now. It's fine now and I was like I don't want to go live tonight. I don't want to go live tonight and you guys understand, I got the best wife in the world. You know what I mean. But we went through it today and I love this lady Because something about her, it elicits everything from me that is bad and elicits from me everything that is good, and the bad needs to come out so I can see it and know how to deal with it, and the good comes out so I learn how to make it better. But I don't ever want anybody to think any of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ, to think that I think I'm in some better place. I struggle, I fight, I have problems, just like all of you. But these are the things that we bring to the table and contribute to these discussions that we have, you know, no matter how much we much her and I go through it, she encourages me to do what I need to do for the Lord, and sometimes I'm just amazed, and so you know. So see, the problem is so many people. They don't want anybody to see them in a state of weakness, but I want you to see mine, I want everyone here to know mine. I want to be as transparent with all of you as I possibly can, all of you as I possibly can, because this thing that we're doing, that we are saying that we're about, is very real. It's very real and we all go through it. We all go through it.
Speaker 1:And I'm saying this because what Evie said Struck into court with me, me. Are we doing this at home? Are we doing this with our spouses? Are we doing this with our husbands and our wives? And so I was forced to answer and deal with this. And my wife I love my wife. There are things about our relationship that people just my wife, I love my wife. There are things about our relationship that people just can't understand. I love this lady, you know.
Speaker 1:And so we, we have to be as believers. We have to be transparent with one another. It's just like what Michael was talking about being the manly man and being in the Marines and being law enforcement. I understand exactly what he's talking about and people like him. It takes an extra measure of effort to not put this manliness on display because you want to be able to show you're just pillar-ness. I get it, I have that in my background.
Speaker 1:But we have to learn how to be transparent because I'm telling you, if we don't, then the very things that plague us the most we will never be able to deal with because we'll be too busy living a life of hypocrisy, hypocrisy. You know what hypocrisy is. You know what a hypocrite is? Let me explain what a hypocrite is. We in America especially, we are obsessed with the cinema, movies, tv shows. We're obsessed with all this stuff.
Speaker 1:Actor the word itself actor. It comes from the Greek word hypocrites, hippocritus, which is where we get the word hypocrite. An actor is a hypocrite. That's literally what an actor is A hypocrite playing a part, not being themselves. But as Christians, we cannot be actors. We have to be who we are and to be transparent. Be who we are and to be transparent Always, because the more transparent you are, the less accountable you have to be Because you're throwing it all out there. You're confronting it and people may feel good about agreeing with your flaws and you may look at them and go how are you condescending on me? I'm telling you what my flaws are. You're condescending by going yeah, I realize that's what you are. Whatever, don't be distracted or dissuaded from that transparency, that transparent person you need to be. Let God deal with him, but he's dealing with you in a way that we need to be dealt with. Brother Michael, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So, uh, I just feel led to say a little bit. Uh, like I said, I don't really like talking about myself, but maybe this is reading someone else's mail that has a hard time forgiving. Right, I was never, I wasn't always. I do easily forgive. Now I do, I don't have an issue with it, I just I just do, I don't. I mean, you can instantly do something to me and and one second later I'd be like, oh, I forgive you and I am like that now, but I wasn't always like that I was like a lot of people that did have a hard time forgiving that.
Speaker 2:I was like a lot of people that did have a hard time forgiving. The person that I couldn't forgive is my father, and there's reasons about it that really put a giant wall between me and him. Now he passed away when I was 16, but there were things he did that I just couldn't forgive. But there were things he did that I just couldn't forgive, and it wasn't even towards me necessarily, but it was towards other people, and so, but what he did, I just did not want to forgive. And so when I was I will say when I was 23, I fell to my knees and I cried out to God, I love my dad and I forgive him, and ever since that day it has been. Even so, maybe someone on the panel has someone that they haven't forgiven. That it's hard for you to, but I'm telling you it's hard for you to, but I'm telling you, if that person is the the stumbling block For you to be easily forgiving others, do it.
Speaker 1:You know it's worth it. I don't even have to tell you that, do it. Come on, brother. Anything else you want to add to that, michael? I mean, I know what you're talking about, brother.
Speaker 2:I want you to speak freely. No, that's it I. I just know once I did that for my dad or with you know, forgiving my dad, and he he'll never even know he's, he's gone by this time you will know he's in well, no, he's.
Speaker 2:He's not in a good place. Yeah, there's no saving grace in his life, and that's the other part of it is knowing that I'll never see him again. But I'm telling you, once I was able to forgive him, everything else has been easy in that department. I'm talking easy because I understand if I don't do that now, while they're here, so they can see Christ, then that's another person I will lose to hell. Basically, right, I don't want that.
Speaker 3:Sister Candy go ahead. So Matthew 23,. Verse 1 says Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, the teachers of religious law and Pharisees of the official interpreters of the law of Moses so practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example, for they don't practice what they teach. They crush people, unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden. Everything they do is for show their arms. They wear extra wide prayer boxes with scripture verses inside. They wear robes with extra long tassels and they love to sit at the head of the table at banquets and in the seats that honor the synagogues. They love to receive the respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces and to be called rabbi. But we're also told not to call anyone rabbi, right, other than jesus. Yeah, but I'm gonna jump into that verse. I think it's 27. Well, there's a bunch of them, but I'm gonna go to 29.
Speaker 3:What sorrow. Sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you pharisees, hypocrites, for you build tombs for prophets and ancestors killed and you decorate the monuments of the godly acts and the and the godly people your ancestors destroyed. But now I'm going to jump back up here to 27. It was 27. I meant to go to no 25, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. What sorrow awaits you, teachers of religious law, and you pharisees, hypocrites, for you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy, full of greed and self-indulgence. You, blind Pharisee, first wash the inside of the cup and the dish and then the outside will become clean too. What sorrow awaits the teachers of religious law and you, pharisees, hypocrites, for you are like whitewashed tombs beautiful on the outside and filled on the inside with deaded, unalived people's bones and all sorts of impurities. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness. And for those who are wondering, that was in the translation New Living Translation. Yeah, sorry translation. New living translation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry, that's right but yeah, so like somehow, that's where I flipped the book to and that's what we got on as soon as it was saying man. So that's just how the Holy Spirit takes it back to his word yep always.
Speaker 1:Sister May go ahead.
Speaker 7:Well, I just wanted to tell y'all just a quick testimony, if I may May.
Speaker 5:I Go for it.
Speaker 7:So, as you guys heard my story and, in short, it was a whole lot more than that, but you know, it's crazy how the lord works. And so I was, my grandmother, um, unalive from ovarian cancer, and, like I told you, the man that did this to me did not. My grandmother never left him, even after he got out of prison. She never left, she went back and so, um, he was unaliving and we had to go take care of her and her last times here. So me and my mom got in the car and I stayed with that man in that house for two weeks and while we were going through everything and you know if, if y'all have never been through anything like that before, it has, it is, it's, it's the same smells, that it was the same house, the same room, the same spots, same places, and finally, and he was doing even some stuff there that made me uncomfortable. But I confronted him again and he told me he says you have no idea, megan, how I have had to live with this. And so my grandmother passed away two weeks later.
Speaker 7:That morning I will never forget this as long as I live I saw him in the kitchen and he was sitting at the. He was sitting at the kitchen. Yeah, he was sitting in the. He was crying and he had just lost his wife and they were married for a long time and she had been with him through everything. And, by the grace of the most high God, I walked over to him and I hugged him. I hugged this God that allowed me to hug this man in his moment when he needed comfort.
Speaker 7:And I'm gonna tell you guys something even after the, even after I called him to make sure that he was okay, was when she had passed away. And I'm going to tell you guys something there is nothing more that forgiveness does than show the love of the father in situations like that. It is, it is by God's grace and his mercy for me that I was able to do that and I can. My story is so much more, but I'm going to tell you guys, if there is somebody in your life that you need to forgive, forgive them, because God loves us so much and I would.
Speaker 7:I felt so proud that I know that in that moment that I made my father proud in heaven and it freed me from everything. And as we left my he says megan, it's over. You know like you'll never have to deal with that again. You know, and to me I still called him and said larry, are you okay? I just want to check on you and make sure you're all right. And I'm gonna tell you something, man, I I couldn't have done it without the Lord, jesus Christ, and I knew I felt so free and happy that he gave me that strength and that ability in that moment to not only stay with this man again but comfort him when he needed that the most, and glory to God for it. I'm just. I can talk about forgiveness all day.
Speaker 1:All day long. Thank you for that. Sister. Appreciate that. That's an amazing testimony.
Speaker 6:Sister Evie go ahead. I don't even know Like after that, I'm just like blown away, like my spirit was over here rejoicing in tears, meg, like you. I just want to say that and I don't know if everybody's going to agree with me. I think that it's important because we understand that the spirit is hostile to the things of the Lord and we're fighting this battle, this fleshly battle, you know daily and you know what. The more do we understand God's will for our lives, the more that this can become easier, you know. But sometimes, brother, I think that counseling depending on how deep this is in people, you know Biblical counseling is.
Speaker 6:I've found some amazing biblical counselors that have helped me through some serious, serious things and I understand that the flesh is weak, but I understand that the word of God is what completely transforms us and there are systems put out there because he knows that we're in this crazy world that help us go into really deep trauma, because I know that I have it. You know what I'm saying and I'm just being transparent. But I think that it's important to keep it completely connected with the word of God, because the word of God is complete in every way. It understands our lament, you know his word is pure for us and I think that you know keeping grounded with that but also getting some professional help when we need. You know, and not everybody will agree with that, but that's for my life and that's what I know. That has helped me through some really dark times and that's just being super transparent.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that. Sister Definitely appreciate that. I'll bring up a point about that in a minute, jay, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 4:Can you read Matthew 18, chapter 18, verse 22? And I want to ask you a question about that.
Speaker 1:Matthew 18.
Speaker 4:Verse 22.
Speaker 1:All right about that. Matthew 18, verse 22. All right, it says Jesus said unto him I say not unto thee until seven times, but not I mean, but until 70 times seven. In other words, he's talking about forgiveness, Right, and he says that I'm not saying that you should forgive somebody 7 times, but you should forgive them 70 times. 7 times is what he's saying.
Speaker 4:So that means unconditional forgiveness right.
Speaker 1:That means limitless.
Speaker 4:Right, what I call unconditional forgiveness right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's unconditional and it's limitless, that's right.
Speaker 4:Right, that's what I'm getting at and I was thinking about that, and so, like Micah was talking about, that is that when, no matter who it is, someone hurts me or that I might know, and sometimes, we get hurt mentally pretty bad, and yet, as a Christian, we have to forgive that person. Right, yep? And look at the situation with the Apostle Paul. Right? And look at the situation with the Apostle Paul right? We were talking about him before.
Speaker 4:Is that when he first they knew, the Christians knew that Apostle Paul was unloving people other Christians, right? You can only imagine what the early Christians at that time had to forgive Paul, right. So that's equal. When you forgive someone like the Apostle Paul, it's called love, right. When we love that person, we forgive them. We have love and compassion and forgive that person even though what they did to us might be wrong and maybe they hurt us pretty bad, but we are still obligated to forgive that person right. And Jesus also says to love your enemies in faith, those who persecute you. And also says to love your neighbor as yourself go to persecute you. And also it says to love your neighbor as yourself, right, yep, that's it, I'm done.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother, I appreciate that. And it's interesting because in this passage, brother Jay, he says don't forgive him seven times, but he says until. Don't forgive him seven times, but he says until 70 times seven. And the expression is meant to convey without limit. Now some hardhead Christians, some crazy person would go. Well, he only means you could forgive this person 490 times. That's not what he's saying. He's saying you forgive them every time. That's what he's talking about. And that's just for one person, for the one person. Because remember, in verse 21, peter came to ask him how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Came to ask him how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Should I do it seven times? Christ says no, 70 times seven is for the one brother. In other words, as many times as necessary.
Speaker 4:Someone made a comment a couple of days ago. I will only forgive that person if they repent.
Speaker 1:How do they respond to that, then that's not forgiveness. Because here's the thing forgiveness is all about saying that what's most important to you is the relationship with the person. And we are saying, by forgiving a person, we don't care about the sin that comes between us. What's more important is the relationship being established, and so the whole idea about saying that a person, we can't forgive them unless they want repentance or unless they want forgiveness or whatever, that's not what true forgiveness is, because we have to look at it from the standpoint of our relationship to Christ. He forgave us, and his forgiveness is what compelled us and drew us to him. It's what drew us to him. Why would you forgive me? You see what I mean. It's not like we came, it's not like we recognized all this stuff about ourselves and then we went to Christ and said, okay, I'll see the way.
Speaker 1:The way man looks at salvation is that is this way. I'm going to let Christ forgive me, I'll let you forgive me. My gift to you, jesus, is that I'm going to accept your forgiveness. This is, and see, this is the mentality that is in modern christianity. This kind of teaching is coming from the pulpit today, when people start talking about how that I'm going to give my life to christ or I'm going to accept the lord jesus christ. I'm going to accept you, dan, when I hear that.
Speaker 1:It's insanity. So what they're saying, think about it. What they're saying is this I will let you forgive me, I will accept your forgiveness to me. When you think about it, it's insanity, but this is what happens. Because, when you think about it, it's insanity, but this is what happens. Because people don't know. They don't know who our God is. They don't know that he's holy and that he's righteous and pure, a God of wrath and a God of love, of course, but salvation God of wrath and a God of love, of course, but salvation has everything to do with being forgiven, pardoned by God. You don't accept that. That's what he gives. But we, now, we believe that these people, these american preachers and I'm american, but this is what, this is what they teach.
Speaker 5:Sister lisa, go ahead so, um, when, when sister meg was given her testimony, the Lord brought to my remembrance a situation, many, many years before I was even born again, in which I had hatred for this person. I had hatred for this person and she actually kind of destroyed my first marriage, which it's a blessing in disguise, that's a whole other thing. But I held this woman responsible for my first marriage and for a long, long, long time I literally I hated her, I mean. And then it was her brother had passed away and I knew her brother and he was always kind to me and I suddenly and this is the Lord, and this is what he just reminded me I felt her pain in his loss and I remember picking up the phone, and it was solely by the strength of the Spirit, and I called her and I said I just want you to know that I'm so, so sorry. And you know, I think there's somewhere in I think it's in Proverbs or something, where it says a soft word.
Speaker 1:Turns away wrath.
Speaker 5:Yes, and we were wrathful towards each other. So this conversation, this conversation literally changed the whole trajectory of everything and to this day we're in contact with each other. I don't know if she's a believer. She follows me on Facebook and my whole Facebook.