The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: John the Baptist, Repentance, Apostasy (3 of 5)
What happens when those who claim to love Jesus have never truly followed Him? This powerful episode dives deep into the unsettling reality of Christian apostasy and the stark contrast between genuine faith and religious performance.
We begin by examining how the world's values fundamentally contradict God's design. "What success looks like to the world is completely different," one participant notes, highlighting how easily believers can be pulled into seeking validation from others rather than from God. This tension creates unprepared hearts—souls not ready to embrace biblical truth because they're too attached to their current way of life.
The conversation takes a profound turn when discussing John the Baptist as "the voice crying in the wilderness." His ministry wasn't merely historical—it represents the urgent call all believers must embody today. Like a herald warning of approaching danger, John's preaching cleared spiritual obstacles, making straight paths for the Lord through boldness, clarity, and simplicity. This preparation, compared to construction work that levels ground before building, remains our model for spiritual readiness.
Most compelling is the examination of apostasy using Hebrews 6 and 1 John 2:19. These passages reveal the sobering truth that many who appear to be Christians—attending church, taking communion, even being baptized—may eventually reveal they never truly believed by walking away. "They were enlightened but not illuminated," one speaker explains, distinguishing between those who merely taste aspects of faith versus those who fully consume it.
As darkness increases in our world, so does the opportunity for authentic believers to shine more brightly. "The darker it gets," a participant encourages, "the more the world needs your light." This challenge reminds us that true salvation cannot be lost—those sealed by the Holy Spirit remain secure even as apostasy grows around us.
Ready to strengthen your spiritual discernment and better understand the difference between genuine faith and religious performance? Listen now and share your thoughts on this challenging but crucial conversation.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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It's my sin, honestly, I don't know. I can't say it any other way. You surround yourself with the world. You start to aspire in the things that the world tells you is good. The way you look, the way the world tells you is good, is completely different than what God wants us to be. What God wants us to be we, let we seek validation from men rather than seeking, seeking the Lord.
Speaker 2:I don't know how.
Speaker 1:Just being in, the, just being in the world, and everything that you're fed on in the world and everything that you're fed on on TV and what you grew up believing and what what success looks like to the world is completely different. It's all the opposite. I'm learning that now. If, if the if the world says it in, you know it's the opposite. We need to be doing the opposite Right when I came to class.
Speaker 2:So I want you to hold on. I want to hold on to that thought, because that's going to really work. That's well. Let me deal with that right now, because I think that I think that this, that this shows this more space of a rough way you know, one of the rough ways that need to be smoothed out.
Speaker 2:I will put this in the context of hearts that are just unprepared, they're not ready to receive the truth. You know what I mean. Because, because you know there are so many, there are so many things in in life, spiritually, um, that we love so many sin, I should say so much sin in life that we love so much that it keeps us from ever having a heart prepared for embracing christ. Because if you love life the way that it is, without christ, it is hard to submit to god's will. Because you want to know why. You want to know why you, you, you want to know why do I need christ? Life is great for me, I have a wife and family, I'm wealthy, I'm powerful in the world. Why do I need Christ?
Speaker 1:Jonathan, one more thing. When you're doing that, some of us and I say us because me I actually believed that I loved Jesus and I was just okay, I wasn't following him whatsoever. But if you had asked me do you love the Lord Jesus? Of course I do. Yes, I do, and so we're just deceived. It's deception.
Speaker 2:Right Brother Jim go ahead.
Speaker 4:I'm with Sister Lisa all the way. I mean, the thing is, I can't really think of a time in my life that I didn't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, but it was head knowledge. I hadn't really accepted it in my heart. And the reason why we need Jesus is because as soon as we take our first breath we're destined for hell. We're destined for hell and you know, coming to Jesus is not fire insurance, but it is. We're all marching straight to hell. And the thing is, if we're fortunate enough and I don't want to open a can of worms here but if we're fortunate enough to be elect, we are going to come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. But how we come is different.
Speaker 4:I mean, sometimes, you know, I thought of the passage that talks about. You know it was and it was exemplified in the temptations of Jesus in the desert the pride of the eyes, the pride of life and the lust of the flesh. We're all surrounded by that one way or another. I mean, you know we enjoy our sin. I mean I have to say too that I still struggle in certain areas. But the thing is now I hate it. Before I just thought, and it's really a slap in the face of Jesus, when you could say, well, I'm saved, but it's okay if I do anything, because everything I've ever done is forgiven. Yeah, that doesn't go. That doesn't go, that doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Right, so let me ask this question. Let me ask, candy, I know you just got in here, so this should be one that you might be able to. I don't know how much you heard yet, but we're talking about Luke, chapter 3, verse 4 and 5, where it talks about John the Baptist being the voice of one crying in the wilderness, preparing the way of the Lord, making his path straight, etc. So my question is and this should have been an early question and I go around and you know until we get the answer but what, what did it mean? What, what is? What is the what is? What does the prophet isaiah mean? And what is? And luke in quoting it, what does it mean when it talks about the voice of one crying? Hold on, let me read that. There you go. So so what does he mean when he talks about preparing the way and crying in the wilderness? What do these things mean?
Speaker 3:Preparing the way, look when you say preparing the way. That's kind of different than what I had on my mind, I guess, but I guess it's the the double-mindedness that we have no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:John the baptist. He was preparing the way. What is preparing? Define the preparing part. What is that?
Speaker 3:he's made, he he's preparing, considering, oh Lord.
Speaker 2:And let's go together Preparing the way. Crime in the wilderness what is it?
Speaker 3:He's showing and preparing how to make it work. How is he doing it? How?
Speaker 2:to make it happen. How? How is he doing you? He's not using a crane, is he?
Speaker 3:no, he's using his faith.
Speaker 2:He's using his what's the word I want to use? Don't, don't, don't think too much.
Speaker 3:He's seeking the wisdom and the knowledge to make the way without depending on the fleshly part. So to say, he's depending on God and being shown.
Speaker 2:No, not really we're getting at something more here. Let me get some help. Let me get some help for you. Yeah, let's see Meg, what do you think?
Speaker 5:Yeah, let's see, meg. What do you think? Well, when he says he's the voice crying out in the wilderness, he was preaching, and he was preaching in a place where people were barren Right there. He was preparing their hearts to receive the Lord Jesus Christ, and he was preparing who is praying, preparing the way. So he was calling people to repentance.
Speaker 2:He was preaching.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and being ready to receive the Messiah.
Speaker 2:It's as simple as that. He was preaching, he was proclaiming the gospel, he was telling people to repent. He's crying in the wilderness and see, and these are things that we all know. You know, I know I'm not saying anything new. We all know what we're talking about here. We all know, but sometimes and look, this happens to us, this happens to me, it happens to everybody. Sometimes it is these simple things that we overlook. But it's as simple as this. He was preaching, he was preaching with boldness, he was preaching with clarity, he was preaching with simplicity. He was preaching to everyone, to everyone. Notice, he was crying in the wilderness. All of mankind was in this spiritual wilderness, all of them, all of us. And he was preaching. That was his way, he was preparing.
Speaker 2:It's sort of like when you are doing construction. If you're going to build and, meg, I know you're in that world If you buy land that's full of trees and weeds and rocks and whatever else is out there and you want to build a house there, you have to clear the way to build, you have to level the foundation that's a good analogy you have to smooth out the ground. You have to do all these things. You have to do all these things. And so, when you look at all the tractors and the trailers and all the work that has been done, all these things that you use to level out the field to be able to build a house, john was doing that very thing, but he had one tool, and that tool was preaching, preaching. It was the preaching. He was proclaiming the message of repentance unto forgiveness, to get forgiveness unto salvation, and he cried in the wilderness. Now, when I look at this, that he cried in the wilderness, this wilderness of lost souls, and he cries, it's more like. It's not like this emotional cry, it's like that cry of a herald, a messenger. You know, like those old, you know I don't know what you call those things you know like the bugler that's warning people that the war is about to happen. He's crying out to everybody telling them to get ready.
Speaker 2:Somebody said a furgeon cry. It was a furgeon cry. It was like it was. It was a, an anxious cry, it was an urgent cry. It was telling people you need to move. And now is the time. The town crier. You need to move and now is the time.
Speaker 2:The town friar that's what I was thinking about, the town friar. He was encouraging people to move immediately, because the the the significance of this is of the essence. It is time to move now. So, and this is what he's talking about. So, so yeah, candy, this is what we're, this is what he's talking about. So, yeah, candy, this is what we're dealing with. This preparation, this was his preaching, and this is something that all of us, to this day, are still called to do. The urgency Hasn't become less intense. It has become less intense. It has become more intense. It has become more intense as we enter into these dark days of Christian apostasy. Now notice, I say Christian apostasy. Unbelievers cannot be apostates. Unbelievers are be apostates. Unbelievers are not apostates, they're just unbelievers, they're lost. But apostasy is what takes place amongst those who call themselves Christians, those who are part of the visible church. Brother Jeffrey, encourage andaging the Servant, go ahead.
Speaker 6:Jonathan, as I've shared before, let me share again. The upside to the world getting darker for us is it's a greater opportunity for our light to shine that much brighter. Because the darker it gets, the more the world needs the light that we put out. When we shine for Christ, we may not think our light is all that bright or all that great, but the darker the world gets, the more we stand out and we shine. So shine bright, everybody. Shine as bright as you can. The world needs your light. Amen. But he shied as bright as you can, the world needs your light.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 7:Michael go ahead All right. So remember, like the Israelites, we are still in the wilderness until we get to glory. So not until we are in the new heaven and new earth will we ever be out of the wilderness. It's the same as the Israelites in Exodus. And on that note, the crying made me think of one of my favorite Spurgeon quotes, and it's the. His quote goes If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed, for that's always been one of my favorite quotes. I think that's the crime we need to do in the wilderness.
Speaker 2:You got to send me where that quote is. You got to DM me and send me where that quote is, because I love.
Speaker 7:If you just go to my page, it on there all right, I'll look for it.
Speaker 2:All right, perfect, I'll find it um. But yeah, sister may go ahead.
Speaker 5:Megan, then candy I have a question, can you? I know it's probably going to seem dumb, but can you explain the difference, like when I say, when I hear apostasy, I always, I always thought that they were unbelievers, because that they were never believers in the first place. If they apostate, so but can you explain, like, what apostasy is?
Speaker 2:I mean fully and use kind of like an example right, so apostasy, so I'll tell you, let me, let me go, let me find the verse that I'm talking about, and I'll make sure, but I want to.
Speaker 5:I'll say this while I'm trying to bring it up on my Because, like when I look at First John, chapter two, verse nine, right when it says they went out from us but they were not of us, for if they were of us they would have continued with us, but they went out, that they made themselves manifest that they were none of us right those were apostates okay. So first john, chapter 2, verse 9 so those are apostates those are apostates.
Speaker 2:219 yes, those are apost, those are apostates, okay, so do, were they even believe?
Speaker 5:it says that they went out and made themselves manifest that they were not of us.
Speaker 2:So right, but, but. But hear me out, but their perspective that they caused others to believe and convey to others, and perhaps even to see themselves with that. They were believers because, remember, they went out from where?
Speaker 5:from us okay, I see what you're saying, all right, so so let me ask you this would you say that an apostate was regenerated or no?
Speaker 2:No, you couldn't be.
Speaker 5:Okay. So if one is not regenerated, then would they be a believer? No, they weren't. Okay. So if one is an apostate, were they ever a believer or were they more of a?
Speaker 2:They were never believers. I don't think.
Speaker 5:I don't think they were either, because you said that apostates were believers no, I said that apostates appear to be believers in the visible church okay, okay, okay, I get what you're saying now okay, that's why.
Speaker 2:that's why john says they went out from us. In other words, from within the body of Christ, the perceived body of Christ, they went out from us. They had been, they had been pretending to be us. Like Haney says, they were hypocrites. Hypocrite is what An actor yeah, so could it.
Speaker 5:could it is that when, when, like Jesus was speaking and he, he said it Isaiah and a New Testament, but that they love me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's exactly right. But what did John say back in 1 John 2.19? He said they went out from us. They were with us and then they went out from us. Why?
Speaker 5:Because they were not of us, for if they were of us they would have stayed, but they went out. That they made themselves manifest. So they manifested that they were never with us because they went out from us, correct.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, they went out from us. In other words, what the Bible is teaching us there is that the apostates cannot hide. They're going to be revealed in that passage. It is going to be made manifest that they were never of us.
Speaker 5:Agreed. So my question to you is is these people who say that they were, you know, preachers and filled with the Holy Ghost, are doing all these things and 10 years later they're like you know what? I filled with the holy ghost, or doing all these things and 10 years later they're like you know what, I'm not doing this anymore?
Speaker 2:those are apostates right, and that's why, and that's, and that's why, that's what the word of god is telling us. I'm he. The word of god is telling us that it is going to be revealed that they were not true, so that we will know they were not true, so that true believers will know these were not our people okay, so can you?
Speaker 5:uh, g napper in the comments matthew 24 10. Can you go to that she's like? What does matthew 24 10 mean? Then jesus says many fell away from the faith that's what.
Speaker 2:That's what apostasy is. That's what apostasy is falling away. Let me show you the verses and I'll go to that one in a second. In Timothy I mean, I'm sorry in 2 Thessalonians 2. Right turn to 2 Thessalonians 2 and look at verse 3. It says this in verse 3 let no man deceive you by any means. Everyone who's a Christian should listen to this really close. Paul says let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, the day when Christ returns. That day will not come except their first come a falling away and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Now notice it says except their first come a falling away. Falling away, there is the word those two, that compound word. Falling away means apostasy. It's the greek word apostasia. If you look this up, that's what it is, that. That is literally what it says.
Speaker 5:So when you read falling away, falling away means to apostatize so, then, they were never true believers in the first place, because when you're a true believer, you can't you lose your salvation they were.
Speaker 2:They were actors. Let's look at this way if you go watch I don't know, let me think, let's, let's say, let's say the movie. Denzel washington was in training. All right, he played this bad, vicious, mean cop. Is that Denzel himself? No, I'm using this as an explanation. Denzel is Denzel. The part that he played is a part that he played. He was an actor, an actor. That word comes from the word hypocritus, hypocrite. The word actor literally means actor. I mean hypocrite, those are the same words. All right, so he, by playing that character, he's playing the character, but that's not him. Christians there are many Christians, I would say the greater part of Christianity are those who are actors. They're actors. I cannot believe how many people that I see, even on these social media platforms, who have made these confessions, these bold, brave confessions that they have now. They have now um came to the light and realize that the darkness is the light.
Speaker 5:Like deconstructing their faith.
Speaker 2:All that nonsense. That's just you're not deconstructing anything, because because if it's not true, then there's nothing to deconstruct, true. So these are actors. There are many groups of people who are. There are many folks who call themselves christians, who are not, and we can, and so, and john makes it clear, they will be disclosed, they will be made evident who they are, and that evidence of who they are will be when they eventually turn, and they will, and we will see it and we will know. That's what John is saying. So when you see what was the verse you said Megan, verse 20, or Matthew 24, 10.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So in Matthew 24, 10, it says yeah, and then shall many be offended and shall betray one another and shall hate one another. I don't see the part where you're talking about.
Speaker 5:I don't know. Are you in Matthew, chapter 24, verse 10?
Speaker 2:Yes, I just read.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's what she. Maybe there was some context above or below it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but this is what is happening. This is what we see when we look in Luke 18, because Christ talks about it. He says in verse 8, in Luke 18, I tell you that he will avenge them swiftly, talking about God avenging his own elect. In verse 7, it says Luke 18, 7, shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear with them for long. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the son of man comes, shall he find faith on earth? And what he is saying and implying here is that that faith will be, will be barely visible at the time he comes. The greater part of the Christian church will will, will barely be discernible because, because apostasy will be so great and Paul talks about this great falling away that precedes all of this.
Speaker 5:Do you think it's going to be masses or do you think that it's going to? I mean because I know how people read scripture. When people see great in front of a word, they think that they see it so differently from falling away versus the great, falling away like tribulation versus the great tribulation.
Speaker 2:So I know, when people see the word great, they you know. Look, I'll put it to you this way. When you read this is okay, apostasy. When you look at, let me show you something here in, in hebrews 6, you guys, all you guys, are all familiar with let me read it 46, 46.
Speaker 2:That's what this is talking about. This is talking about apostasy. So, look, he says in verse 4 of Hebrews 6, it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, this is an apostate, someone who was enlightened, this is someone who has tasted Of the heavenly gift. Remember, they came out from among us so they tasted of the heavenly gift and they were also made partakers, fellow sharers. They were with us at the communion table. They may have even been baptized. They were in the wednesday night prayer meeting. They have they all for all intents and purposes. We couldn't tell that they weren't what we are. In verse five they tasted the good word of god. They tasted it. They tasted of the powers of the world to come.
Speaker 2:And then he says because he starts off in verse 4 by saying for it is impossible. And then he goes into all these things that I just read, and then in verse 6, he says it's impossible if they shall fall away. Fall away means what Go away from them. What did I just tell you? Falling away means what Go away from them. What did I just tell you? Falling away means Apostating, apostasy, to fall away, to apostatize. This is not. This is not. Yeah, this is. This is falling away. This is like this is what apostasy is Falling away. Okay. So in verse 6. When he says, you know, falling away, he's talking about they fell aside, they apostatized. That's what the word actually means they fell away. And then it says and then he says here it is impossible, if they fall away, to renew them again unto salvation, I mean unto repentance, seeing that they crucify to themselves a son of God afresh and put him to open shame.
Speaker 5:So let me tell you what he's saying here but these people weren't true believers, right, jonathan? No, they weren't, they couldn't be. That's what I thought. They couldn't have, jonathan.
Speaker 2:No, they weren't, they couldn't be that's what I thought they couldn't have saving faith. No, they did not. The true believer. It's impossible for them to fall away, amen. It's impossible because we know in 1 Peter, 1, verse 5, that we are kept.
Speaker 5:By the power of God Amen.
Speaker 2:Unto salvation, you know. So this is not the same group of people, because remember what I just read. Look what the writer of Hebrews says. They were enlightened, they tasted. It's all in small increments, nothing large. They were familiar with it, they knew about it, they had Bibles in their house, they read their Bibles, they went to church, they got baptized. For no, doubt.
Speaker 5:So how could they taste the Holy Spirit then? What it's talking about is this the Holy Spirit? Is when you are with the people who actually have the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 2:No, See, here's the thing yeah, like they tasted. Like Barbara said they tasted, they didn't consume. You have to understand. Here's the thing yeah, like they tasted. Like Barbara said they tasted, they didn't consume. You have to understand. This is like a. This is not like. These are people who were completely enveloped in the faith. They weren't.
Speaker 2:Look at the language that he's using, because he starts off by saying listen to what he says in verse four. Again, you got to, you got to wrap your head around this. Because he says for it is impossible. And then he goes into talking about why? Because he says it's impossible. And then he goes into talking about why? Because he says it's impossible. So what is the impossible thing that he's talking about? He is saying that it is impossible. And then you go down to verse six if they shall fall away to renew themselves again unto repentance.
Speaker 2:So these folks are not true believers. They tasted, they did not consume. They were enlightened but not illuminated. They were made partakers but they didn't join the fellowship and become a part of that body of Christ, the believing people. They just dilly-dally. They came in, they got acquainted, but they didn't know. Brother Nathan mentioned tares. All right, when you look at the wheat and the tares. One of the reasons why Christ said let the tares grow up with the wheat I mean with the wheat is because when the tares with the wheat, is because when the tares and the wheat are growing up, you can't tell the difference between the two until the very end, until they reach maturity.
Speaker 5:But the tares were planted by the devil.
Speaker 2:I know, but you can't harvest it.
Speaker 5:You see what you're saying.
Speaker 2:But they look the same. That's the point. They look the same. So that's why you can't separate them Until they're harvested, because you can't tell the difference between the true and the fake. Oh my goodness, they look the same, they act the same, they do the same things. They act the same, they do the same things. You can take communion every week and not be a Christian. You can be baptized 10 times, you can be rededicated 100 times.
Speaker 2:But what he's talking about? Because, remember, he's talking about something that is impossible and he's saying that these people, they appear to be Christians. Why? Because we saw them somewhat enlightened, we saw them tasting, we saw them partaking. I'll see you, jeff, I'll get you in a second. But then he says it's impossible. And then he tells you all these things about them.
Speaker 2:And then he goes in verse six and you connect this to what he says it is impossible, if they shall fall away, meaning apostatized, to turn away from that which they had been enlightened about, that which they have tasted, that which they had made. They were made a partaker, ok, and they were made partakers, meaning that they didn't make themselves partakers. The body made them partaker, okay, and they were made partakers, meaning that they didn't make themselves partakers. The body made them partakers. The Holy Spirit showed them, but he did not live in, he did not take root in them, he didn't live in them.
Speaker 2:And then it says a person who is in this condition, who apostatizes and turns from the faith. It is impossible for these people to be renewed again unto repentance. This is why I always say that I don't believe that any person that we see that has been a true Christian. They've been in church, they read the Bible, they've been witnessing, they've been street witnessing, knocking on doors, going to prison, doing all this kind of stuff. When they turn away and go I've been a preacher for 40 years and I'm no longer a Christian anymore I realized, I came to my senses that that's all nonsense and that Christianity is just a man-made thing to control people. These people can never come back. That's what he's saying right here. He says it's possible for them to come back and to be renewed. Why he says it's impossible for them to come back and to be renewed? Why? Because it would require. It would require it would require crucifying to themselves the son of God all over again.
Speaker 5:What does that?
Speaker 2:mean? It means that the only way that a person like that, who turns away and tries to come back, he says it's impossible, they won't they, it's impossible for them to be renewed because it would mean that christ would have to die all over again so that's how far they are from the faith, basically that's how far they are from the faith.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, yeah. And see, you got a guy here. This, this Mark Hoyle, says, tells me to shut up and calls me a liar. See, this is what. This is what these people sound like. Listen, he says. He tells me shut up, liar. I bind you in Satan in Jesus name.
Speaker 3:Mark, he's a person with the Church of Christ.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, Jay, that's OK, I don't care, let him say what he says.
Speaker 3:He means that you have to be baptized for salvation.
Speaker 2:I don't care what he says, that's how an apostate sounds, you know. So this is so, and I'll let him say go ahead, Brother Jeff, man of God, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Well, what I want to say is you're right, we don't need to pay attention to this guy. He's ignorant. It doesn't matter what church he belongs to or thinks he belongs to. But I think this highlights the importance of grasping the doctrine of election. I mean, once you get that in your head, you realize there are elect and there are reprobate, and the reprobate people are not going to.
Speaker 4:You know, they may look like Christ. I mean you get a guy that, say, was born in a church. You know, I mean his family, everybody in his family goes to church and he goes to church, he goes through the motions, but he never really makes that connects with the Lord, and if he never does it's because he never would be. But the thing is, you know, if you look I mean Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits you know, really, when you come down to it, you could actually see a patient kind of hit you the wrong way. You know it's like they say something or they do something and kind of hit you the wrong way. It's not your job to call them out or anything and certainly they have no impact on us personally. So it's just a matter of it's just that the tares are going to stay into the church until the end, where they're separated and the apostates are going to leave the church. They finally fed up with it and they're tired of hiding everything, so they just come out in the open. I mean, that's really the only difference between the two and again, like I said, it really doesn't affect us personally.
Speaker 4:We've still got to witness to everyone because we don't know who's elect and not elect. But we have to grasp that. We have to hold on to it. You know, once the Holy Spirit seals you, when you're sealed, that's it, it's done, it can never be undone. It's like a brand. You know, like anybody who watched Yellowstone getting that Yellowstone brand on your chest, you're never going to get that off. No, you have it, you. You're sealed. You can't be taken away, you can't be lost, you can't drift away, you can't apostatize, etc. Etc. And I'm just getting on my soapbox about this. But you know I'm with you, jonathan 100 brother, you know I am.