The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: John the Baptist, Repentance, Apostasy (4 of 5)
Dive into the crucial distinction between genuine faith and religious performance as we explore what truly separates believers from apostates. This thought-provoking conversation unpacks the biblical evidence that those who "fall away" from faith were never authentic believers to begin with.
At the heart of this discussion lies a profound examination of repentance. We distinguish between worldly repentance—merely modifying external behaviors while leaving the heart unchanged—and godly repentance that transforms from within through the Holy Spirit's work. Using key passages from 1 John 2, Hebrews 6, and 2 Corinthians 7, we demonstrate why true salvation cannot be lost.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when we consider why humility might be God's most treasured virtue. We discover that the lower we position ourselves, the more magnificent God's glory appears to us. Pride, by contrast, attempts to trespass on God's territory. Christ Himself modeled this ultimate humility, even referring to Himself as "a worm and not a man" in Psalm 22.
For believers struggling with assurance of salvation, this episode offers biblical comfort and clarity. For those developing spiritual discernment, it provides tools to recognize the difference between genuine faith and mere religious performance. The biblical truth remains: those who are truly His will persevere to the end, not by their own strength, but through His preserving grace.
Join us for this deeply theological yet practical exploration of what it means to be truly transformed rather than merely reformed. The stakes couldn't be higher—eternity hangs in the balance.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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anyway, I said I said yeah, and I appreciate. I appreciate the words, but I want everybody to challenge everything that we talk about here, and we all know that I challenge everybody so well I would think about challenging your brother, except, uh, I haven't found where you've been wrong yet, so when, if you ever are, I'll I'll bring it up.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it, brother, because I know I will be, and I know that if somebody's gonna call it out, it'll be it out. It'll be one of the people in this panel right now for sure, because you're faithful people, and that's what faithful people do. We correct each other. So one of the sisters in the chat, she brought up a good verse out of Matthew 7. So I'm going to read in verse 5 and 6 of Matthew 7, where Jesus himself says you, hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye.
Speaker 2:Now, remember he's talking to somebody who perceives themselves as a believer Cast you, hypocrite, he calls him, you, actor, first cast out the beam out of your own eye and then you shall see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye. In other words, you have a log in your eye, a whole log beam, and you're trying to, you know, cast out the speck out of your brother's eye. But he says in verse six give not that which is holy to the dogs. Neither cast your pearls before swine, and this is the part that you emphasize, because they will trample them under their feet and turn again and come and tear you apart and see he's talking. Now notice you have to understand. He's talking to people who believe they're on the right side of things and they're arguing with the Lord of glory, and he tells them that the truth to them is like casting pearls before swine.
Speaker 2:And so these are people that are apostates. They're not true believers. If they knew who the Messiah was, they would know that the one that they're arguing with was him, and they didn't why. One that they're arguing with was him and they didn't why. Because they're apostates. They're actors. They are religious actors. They put on the robes and the phylacteries, the tinkling bells on the bottom of their robes. So they're just actors. Sister Candy, go ahead. You were going to say something candy, you there.
Speaker 3:I had to find my spot. I moved. Um, I just kind of want to go back to what you originally asked, because now I got my bible out, so. But so where he preaching the repentance of the remission of sins, as it was written, he says the voice of one crying in the wilderness prepares the way for the Lord. So basically, if we resort back to Isaiah 40 in verses three, well, actually pretty much all the way down through our book, he's basically saying, like the wilderness is compared to the discipline and the punishment of sin, so he's crying because of the, the wrath that comes from that, and he's preparing the way. So he's clearing the path for the of obstacles, trying to teach people to clear the path of the obstacles, for the way of the mess coming. Who saved them from all those obstacles? I believe Right, that's true, that's true. And then the crooked places that shall be made straight, putting away sin, telling people how to put away sin, and the rough ways are made smooth because God will restore his people.
Speaker 2:And he did that, and he did that how? By preaching right, yes, that's what he did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. He's he's preaching on repentance and it repentance kind of goes into what. What you're talking about right now with the people who fall away, right, if they truly repented, they will change their behaviors because that's what repentance is right changing the Changing the behaviors.
Speaker 2:No, it's more than that. I mean it is.
Speaker 3:Because it literally comes from the Holy Spirit within us, who changes us from the inside. But repentance.
Speaker 5:When we repent.
Speaker 3:We want to turn from that behavior that we are repenting from.
Speaker 2:No, it's more than that, sister. It's more than that. And see, I think this is the mistake that a lot of those See, this is what happens, this is, this is what is believed by those who believe a christian can lose their salvation. All right. So, and and this is this is no, no reproof, it is I want to make this clear there are christians. So when you, when you look at hebrews set six. So we looked at right, we looked at Hebrew six. Now look, let me go back to, let me get back there for a second.
Speaker 2:I love when we get into these discussions like this, because this is, this is why we do this, because it makes sense to to deviate if it means getting things made more or rendered more conspicuous in our understanding. So in Hebrews six he goes it's impossible For what those who were once enlightened tasted the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and tasted of the powers to come. It's impossible if these people that are characterized by these, if they should fall away, to renew them again to repentance. In other words, if they fall away from this, they can't be renewed again. They can't be renewed again Now. These are people who repented by turning or correcting their behavior, and the reason why these these people fall away Is because they had that kind of repentance. You understand what I'm saying, so?
Speaker 3:basically how you're saying, that is that's good, they did it. They did it by their own works.
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying. Their understanding of repentance Is behavior correction, not the change of mind, not the change of mind, not the change of heart.
Speaker 3:But that's what I'm saying. It all derives and has to happen through the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.
Speaker 2:It does. But what I'm saying is we're talking about what repentance is. Let's keep it focused.
Speaker 1:It's metanoia.
Speaker 3:Repentance is a Putting away your sins.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not. It's not. Repentance is a change of heart, because if repentance was putting away your sin, then how is it that we, as believers, continue to sin? But somebody mentioned earlier the big difference between us as sinners before being converted and after is that now we take no delight in it. We are trying to die, we're dying daily, but our mind and hearts have been changed. The seat of our affections have been changed. We seek holiness that's.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's what I'm saying, but I guess I'm no, here's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:You're too just. There's two things that you, that we're talking about. There is a repentance that is temporal and there is a repentance that is spiritual.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:There are two different things.
Speaker 3:And when we come to Jesus Christ, that true repentance is the changing of our minds and hearts, because of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Right as we fall short every day, like he says in scripture. That's why we are to repent daily, because that's how he continuously cleanses us, right? But here's what I want to say about apostates, those who fall away from the faith. These are people whose repentance was about behavior alterations, alterations in behavior, not an alteration in the heart. So when they fall away, you have all these other Christians saying see, they were saved and they lost their salvation. No, they didn't, because what you were looking at was a was were people who were all, whose repentance was only in a form of behavior. They, they cleaned up the cup on the outside, but on the inside of the cup, full of hypocrisy and filth.
Speaker 3:Exactly, you see, the, I mean they came in from the outside, they pretended that's good they pretended.
Speaker 2:That's right, these were pretenders. Whitewashed tombs, like Brother Nathan says and Brother somebody else said that earlier as well Nathan, I don't know. Yeah, nathan said that. So these people, they cleaned up the outside. And these are the ones that want to tell you that I washed my hands, cleaned up the outside, and they, these are the ones that want to tell you that I washed my hands, but you didn't clean your heart. And so when we see somebody who has been like, when these people say oh, I used to be a Christian, I was a preacher for 40 years, preacher for 30 years, I used to do this, I used to do that. You didn't do anything except cleaned up the outside of the cup.
Speaker 3:That's all you do. People that can talk a good game, but if you watch their actions, they still do the things that they're telling you not to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, before time they can fool us into thinking that they're believers. But what, meg? Yet before time they can, just they can fool us into thinking that they're, that they're believers, but what? But what Meg quoted in First John, chapter two was that what is what we always know, which is that in First John let me get there. And two and he's. And he goes over it as he talks about it, and this is why I love this, because it's always a reminder he says little children. It is the last time, and he was saying that then, which means we're still in that last time, as you have heard, antichrist shall come. And then he says even now, there are many of them. So what John is saying here is that Antichrist. Listen to what he says here in 1 John 2. Turn to verse john, chapter two.
Speaker 2:Whoever has your bible, look at verse 18. He says children. It is the last time, as you have heard. In other words, at some point prior to his writing this, he says you have heard that antichrist shall come. Now. He says now. He says at this time, let me tell you, now there are many of them out there. He's saying that this is the coming of the Antichrist. He's saying it's already been fulfilled. You have heard that Antichrist will come, but now I'm telling you that there are many of them that have already, that have come, and even now there are many antichrists. That's what he says, whereby you know. In other words, he says this is how you know it is the last time. If we are saying that we are in the last time, as the bible clearly says and as 90, as as all most Christians always admit, the evidence of that is the Antichrist already being here, not just one, but many of them. That's how we know it's the last time.
Speaker 2:Read verse 18. Then, in verse 19, he says they, who are they, antichrist? They went out from us, they apostatized. Notice what they're called. They are called Antichrist for a reason Because they oppose Christ by having been posers in Christ. Antichrist are not just the unbelievers, but they are unbelievers who pretended to be in christ.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so it says in john 19 or 219 they who, antichrist? Who are they? Those who pretended to be christians, those who are actors? They went out from us. He tells you that they go out, they always exit and he says but they were never of us. Why is he saying this? He is trying to make people understand. He's trying to make the believers understand. This is why they went out. They went out because they were never of us. Don't be fearful that this could happen to you. I'm telling you that you, we are all part of the same family. But they went out and you have questions. But I'm telling you is what John is saying. John is saying I'm telling you they went out because they were never of us. He goes and then he goes to them further to prove the argument he goes. If they had the argument he goes, if they had been of us, if they had been what we are, they would have continued with us. Because the continuing part is what makes us distinctly Christians. It makes us distinctively God's people, his elect souls.
Speaker 3:They said the goodness, and we don't know.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying that's no, that's the apostates. That's the apostate. That's not Christians. Pull that back. The apostates, that's not Christians. Pull that back. And come back to that in a minute.
Speaker 2:I'm going to show you why, in that passage, those who tasted and who were enlightened, that's not talking about believers, that's talking about these folks, the apostates. Now, they went out from us, but they were not of us. If they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. And then he says but they went out. And he tells you why they went out. They didn't go out because they were destructing, deconstructing Christianity. They didn't go out because they realized they came, that they came to a certain truth that about their Christianity was false. No, they went out for one reason. What does it say? So that it would be made manifest that they were not at all of us. That's why they went out.
Speaker 2:Now, candy, going back to um, going back to Hebrew six, to answer what you were bringing up in verses four through six of Hebrew six, this is not talking about believers, because he goes on and says it's what it's impossible for them to do. It's impossible for them, after and after tasting being enlightened, being made a partaker, and tasting of the powers of the world to come. He's talking about these folks falling away and that they cannot be renewed again to repentance because that will require Christ being crucified all over again, and that can't be done. He died once for sin, that's it.
Speaker 2:Right, I wasn't saying Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, follow me. Then he goes into verse seven. He goes for the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it and brings forth earth's meat for them. By whom it is dressed, they receive the blessing from god. That's the christian. But that which bears thorns and briars is rejected and not unto cursing, whose end is to be burned. That's the reprobate, that's the people at the top. But then what did he say, candy, in verse 9? Read verse 9.
Speaker 3:Let me find it.
Speaker 2:All right, I'll read it. Yeah, he says, but, beloved, we are persuaded. Better things of you, things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. In other words, you have salvation, so the expectation of better things you have, because they accompany that salvation, these don't have salvation. These are the briars I mean. These are those who bear thorns and briars and are rejected unto cursing. You know what that is Reprobate.
Speaker 3:All I was literally saying was I was of them, because I'm not falling away. That's literally what I was saying a while ago. It's okay. It's okay what you did. Somebody needed to hear that, that's fine. But I was sitting here like dude. I don't believe that I am of him. That's why I'm not falling away. I don't have to worry about that, because the fact that verse 10, for God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love, that's right that you have shown towards his name in that you have ministered to the saints and do minister. That's kind of, I guess, a couple of my comments. That's kind of where I was coming from with it. Not necessarily, but again, the conversation was elaborated more in depth because somebody needed to hear that here right, right, and that's where, and that's where we get to.
Speaker 2:So when we talk about um, you know back to your point about repentance, you know there there is a, there is a, there is a, a worldly repentance, um, that a worldly person can do, an ungodly person can do. That is different than what a true Christian. How they repent, there's two different kinds.
Speaker 3:I agree, because it's the worldly view versus the spiritual view and if you are not in the spirit and walking in the spirit, then that worldly view is how people will quickly fall away Quickly fall away Blown away like a tumbleweed.
Speaker 2:Right. Their repentance is carnal, it is a temporal repentance, not a salvific repentance. It is they. You know you get a lot of people that can clean themselves up. You can, you can be, you know and this is not a slam on on people who who take advantage of this If you had an alcohol problem and you went to aa, you can go to aa, get cleaned up and not be a christian, you know. Now, if you're going to aa, it's a good thing to do that. But what I'm saying is getting cleaned up in any capacity doesn't mean that you are a christian because you cleaned up your act. But what? What is clear? That christ says that a, a, a dog will always return to its vomit and that a pig will always return to its wallowing in the mire. Even if they get cleaned up for a while, they will always go back and they always go back to make it manifest to us that they were never one of us it goes back to the atonement as well.
Speaker 3:How many times are they going to sacrifice I'm you know, instead of that once and for all sacrifice of jesus christ. How many times are you going to keep? Right repeating and going back, and repeating and going back. That's not gonna work. Like you can't keep sacrificing. Jesus is that sacrifice?
Speaker 2:so come unto him and he sacrificed himself once, and that's it.
Speaker 2:There is no more so and so, if so, if you turn away from that, if you turn away from that, it is clear. It is clear that it is something that you did not, um, really truly embrace and you came in to touch, to get your feet in water, but you don't want to take the full, the full dive. You didn't want to, you didn't want to, you didn't want to get baptized in that spiritual sense. Brother nathan says something really good and he got. He gets it out of. He gets it out of, uh. Second corinthians 7. But thank brother nathan for this, it's a good one.
Speaker 2:Paul says in verse 9 of 2 Corinthians 7, now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you sorrowed to repentance. For you were made sorry. Now watch what he says here. This is a great passage, brother brought up. For you were made sorry after a godly manner, that you might receive damage by us in. Nothing but notice. He says you were sorrow, you were made sorry after a godly manner, as opposed to an ungodly manner. How do I know?
Speaker 2:Look at verse 10. For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, to not be repented of, meaning that you cannot lose your salvation with this type of repentance that results from godly sorrow, but of the sorrow of the world. But the sorrow of the world works death, the sorrow of the world, is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. It is a behavioral repentance, not a sorrow that leads that works, not a godly sorrow that works. Repentance to salvation, to not be repented of, truly been blood-bought, blood-washed, is the recipient of salvation because they had experienced a godly sorrow that works. Repentance that cannot be repented of, meaning that they can't lose it. It cannot be altered, it cannot be changed. So when you tie all these things together 2 Corinthians, hebrews 6, second thessalonians 2, first john 2, 19 it all points to the same thing. You look at romans 1, verse 24, 26, 28, god giving these people up to reprobation, all those three verses that I just cited talk about being made reprobate. That means rejected by god. When god rejects you, there is no repentance to be had, other than an outward, worldly, ungodly repentance which can, which can only clean up the outside of the cup, but it doesn't clean up the filth on the inside. But a godly sorrow works, repentance that leads unto salvation, to never be repented of.
Speaker 2:Comments from anybody. Brother Jeffrey, encouraging servant, go ahead your thoughts. I don't have any right now I got sidetracked. I'll get back to you later. Thank you, no problem, brother brian, I didn't get a chance to hear from you today. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 6:amen, thank you. So, in regards to repentance, actually the scriptures is very, very serious about this. I was actually reading this to you night. It's in Numbers, chapter 5 or 6. It talks about, basically, even if you hurt somebody, you've got to go back to that person and you've not just got to give back what you took away from them by hurting them, you've got to put more on top of that You've got to repay them. That's the repentance of the Old Testament.
Speaker 6:The New Testament, matthew, chapter 5, jesus actually relates non-repentance to unalivenment. He says that before you bring your gift to the altar, he says, and realize that your brother has something against you, leave your gift at the altar. That gift, by the way, is yourself, it's your body, it's the living sacrifice, that's your gift at the altar. That gift, by the way, is yourself, it's your body, is the living sacrifice. That's your gift to God. Right, leave your gift at the altar, turn back, reconcile with your brother, come to an agreement, for if you don't, you will be handed over to the torturers.
Speaker 6:And 1 John as well relates to this he who hates his brother is an unaliver, and no unaliver inherits the kingdom of heaven. It's very, very, very serious, incredibly serious scriptures and this is actually a bit of a hard topic for me right now because I've only been dealing with a sister in church who has been shown an unrepentant heart, actually a very hateful heart, and it's very upsetting for the few of us that know about it to actually see somebody like this. But we do know that the tares grows up with the wheat, we know there's a separation from the goats and the sheep, but still, when you're going through this, when you're witnessing this, it's very, very sad to see. Actually, people are like this and, as you, you said it best they're spiritual actors. That's who they are and it's just the biggest waste of time it is.
Speaker 2:It really is, brother. Brother foreknown any comments? I haven comments. I haven't gotten to you yet either. Want to add anything?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, well, it's kind of interesting, it's kind of dovetails into something that I've been catching during my readings. So repentance is a form of humility, right, is a form of humility, Right? So, and I've actually been studying humility based on a couple of verses. Maybe I can unpack it and get your thoughts about this, this connection. So verse is like but many who are first will be last and the last first.
Speaker 5:You know, all over the Bible, God is talking about being humble, and not only that, but he bowed the lowest. So what he did for us is the apex of mercy of humility, and he wants us to be humble as well. So I guess my question is why did God choose to make a reality that allows for the magnification of the virtue of humility above any other virtue? Why is humility so important to God? Everything is around it. It's all about the highest being bowed the lowest that's possible on a cross, and I guess what I'm trying to figure out is why? Why did God choose this one? And I guess I can see what you think about that. What I'm trying to figure out is why, why did God choose this one? And, um, I guess I can see what you think about that.
Speaker 2:You see, when you, when you say, why did he choose this one, what do you mean? This one?
Speaker 5:This virtue, humility. Yeah, humility above all others. It seems like the whole reality is based on it or for it.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll certainly open it up to everybody to comment on that, but I'll start by saying this that humility is the counter to the most egregious sin that any man can do, which is pride. God hates pride above all. Which is pride? God hates pride above all because pride is the, the highest. Pride is the contradistinction to the lowest humility. The more low you put yourself, the higher you see God. Anywhere in between of being in the dust, of anywhere between being in the dust and being up to God is to compete with God. It is to walk on his territory. It is to step on his is a trespass on his land. So the people, those of us who see ourselves the lowest, the lowest of the low, the lowest of the low that we see ourselves, think about it. If God is the highest that there is, the lower you are, the more awesome it is to look up and see his glory, the closer you get to him in terms of where you think you stand. What you are doing is trying to put yourself on par with God, and this is what man does.
Speaker 2:I have debates with people on a regular basis and discussions on a regular basis about man's will, all these Christians who talk about their will. They worship their will and what they're doing by championing championing this ideology of will worship. They are saying that there is a place where I am, where I'm able to access god in ways or closer to than than than others who are more on the on the humble side. So we'll start with that for a second and see what, how we can build on that. Let's start with than others who were more on the humble side. So we'll start with that for a second and see how we can build on that. Let's start with Brother Jeff, jeff, and then.
Speaker 1:Cain. Well, you know it's obvious that I mean God does love the aspect of humility overall, and he modeled that when Jesus came to earth. I would say that there's probably no one that's ever walked the earth since that would say that Jesus was not a humble person. I mean, he is the exemplar of humility and a humble person doesn't place themselves above anyone else. They seek others good over their own. And this isn't something you can have perfectly, but it's not an abasement, it's not a denigration.
Speaker 1:I used to have one elder, at a church I attended, talked about how we were worms all the time. We're worms, we're lower than worms, and I'm thinking, no, that's pejorative. You know, humility're lower than worms and I'm thinking, no, that's pejorative. Humility is a noble thing. I mean, when I look back at my life and see where I haven't been humble, I can see, yeah, you really did a great job there, pal. You didn't follow what you should. And now, as I get older, I'm humble because, first of all, I know I'm getting close, closer to being in his presence. But also it's just that things tend to shape you. I mean, we're shaped like a sword in a forge and you know, that's what I want. I want what he wants, more and more each day, right.
Speaker 2:Brother Kanan go ahead each day.
Speaker 4:Right, brother Kanan, go ahead the subject, because it's really been something I've been studying and reflecting on. But first I wanted to start in Matthew 20, 24 through 28. And after hearing this, the other 10 disciples became indignant with the two brothers. But Jesus called them to himself and said you know that the rulers of the Gentiles domineer over them and those in high position exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you. But whoever wants to become prominent among you shall be your servant, and whoever desires to be first among you shall be your. I'm going to say servant because I can't say the other word. Just as the Son of man did not come to be first among you, shall be your. I'm going to say servant because I can't say the other word. Just the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as ransom to many.
Speaker 4:And I want to tie that into John when we look at John 4, 32 through 34, which is but he said to them I have food to eat that you do not know about. So the disciples were saying to one another no one brought him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them my food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. And so we see that humility christ exemplifies. We know this and, as he was selfless, when we embrace this we nourish our very soul with his realities and truths. When we read the Holy Scripture, exemplify and follow his lead in our life, with our responses, the way we think, the way we speak to people, the patience that we give people who may be in error or who may be believing a lie, to remember that we have a great commission to fulfill.
Speaker 4:And it's not about arguing with these people or becoming upset and being driven by emotion only, but to be discerning and being able to say hey, can I share the gospel with you? Can I give you God's truth and word and allow those seeds to be planted and water them so that they go back to the word, or they go to maybe a local church or a Christian that they know in their area to start asking these questions as the Lord prompts them, because we know that if we do these things we can remain faithful in him. But we have to think of ourselves less. It's not about what I feel or if you've upset me or offended me or said something about my perspective or politics that you don't agree with. It has nothing to do with any of those things, but to be servants and to be messengers for Christ, just as he demonstrated for us perfectly in his life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, brother. We see this. I want to read something in Psalm 22. And it's Christ speaking. You know, pre-incarnate. He says, oh my God and this goes to what brother Jeff was saying about, because he mentioned the worm being a worm, and I want to show this in Christ. He says oh my God, I cry in the daytime, but you hear me not, and in the night season I am silent and am silent, but you are holy. Oh you who inhabits the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in thee. They trusted and you did deliver them. They cried unto thee and were delivered, and they trusted in you and were not confounded. Now, this is what it talks about Christ himself. But I am a worm and no man, a reproach of men and despised of the people. All they that see me left me to scorn. They shoot, shoot out the lip, they shake their head saying he trusted.