The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Idolatry & Sorcery (PART 1 of 5)
A penetrating examination of what truly constitutes idolatry in the modern Christian's life takes center stage in our continuing exposition of Galatians 5. Moving beyond simplistic views of wooden statues and pagan rituals, we uncover the subtle yet dangerous ways idolatry infiltrates our daily existence.
"Anything that turns your heart from God is an idol," emerges as the powerful truth threading through our conversation. The panel shares remarkable personal stories—from wrestling with witchcraft in marriage to watching a loved one make pregnancy and motherhood an idol—revealing the contemporary battlegrounds where Christians unknowingly surrender their primary devotion.
What makes this discussion particularly compelling is its relevance to every believer. We explore how even good things—spouses, children, careers, church activities—can become spiritual competitors to God when improperly prioritized. Social media receives special scrutiny as a modern platform that encourages self-worship and obsession with metrics like followers, views, and monetization.
The distinction between religious sins (idolatry, witchcraft) and social sins (hatred, variance, emulations) provides a helpful framework for understanding how the works of the flesh operate in different dimensions of our lives. Most provocatively, we consider how professing Christians can simultaneously hold their Bibles while worshiping false gods—often gods of their own making that align with personal preferences rather than biblical truth.
"God will not share His throne with anyone or any idea," stands as the clarion call of this episode. We invite you to join us in honest self-examination: calculate what receives your time, attention, and emotional energy, and you'll quickly discover what you truly worship. The remedy isn't necessarily abandoning everything you love, but reordering your loves properly with God at the center of all.
Listen, reflect, and consider: what might be stealing your devotion from the only One worthy of worship?
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Good evening Christians. How are you doing? Trust, all is well and today going to be having our discussion on a continued exposition through the book of Galatians. I'm currently in Galatians, chapter 5. And we're still dealing with the subject matter concerning the lusts of the flesh. And you know, I guess people talk about it in a very general way. But we're going to try to be as granular as we can to deal with these issues. Granular as we can to deal with these, these issues, because there are certain things that the word of god would consume as being a lust of the flesh, that many people commit themselves to doing and partaking in and yet not taking it as seriously as the Lord intended to be taken. So there are things that go contrary to godliness, that men take it as entertainment and just because you view it as entertainment doesn't mean that it doesn't violate what God tells us in the scriptures constitutes lust of the flesh and the works of the flesh, the works of the flesh. So we're going to begin in Galatians 5 and continue there, and I want to read Galatians 5, verse 19 and verse 20. It says now the works of the flesh are manifest. Which are these? Adultery, fornication, uncleanness and lasciviousness? Last time we left off in galatians, we finished at verse 19, dealing with adultery, fornication, uncleanness and lasciviousness, and we talked about the vile nature of these works of the flesh. And we talked a lot about fornication, we talked about adultery, divorce. We talked about the extremes that people will go to to discover new ways of being even more unclean in the lust that you contribute to or that you partake in. So now we come to verse 20.
Speaker 1:Galatians 5. And it adds to this list Of works of the flesh which the apostle says are manifest, and he adds to these Idolatry, witchcraft or sorcery, hatred, variance, witchcraft or sorcery, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions and heresy heresies plural now that's a long list and heresy Heresies Plural Now that's a long list. And I'm actually going to try to Get through these Because I think there's more Things that need to be discussed Amongst us On the practical side of these things. So I will try to get through these, but the first of these two I want to talk about Idolatry and witchcraft. Idolatry and witchcraft, now Idolatry. Wait, let me stop here for a second Before I begin. I've skipped over A very crucial part of our discussion, which is to allow people into the discussion. So I'm going to reach out to the panel and get your opening ideas On these works of the flesh and the subject matter.
Speaker 1:And again, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, violence or hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions and heresies. Now, the first two of these, idolatry and witchcraft, these are what would be constituted, these are what would be constituted religious sins, religious sins. And then the others are going to be what we would refer to as social sins, social sins, in other words, sins that involve relationships. So now I would like to appeal to the panel, in other words, sins that involve relationships. So now I would like to appeal to the panel and get your opening remarks, whatever they may be, to help jumpstart the conversation that we're going to have on continuing on the works of the flesh. So that I will start with Sister Candy, your opening remarks.
Speaker 2:So far, hey, hey, hey, shoot Idolatry and witchcraft so. We're not to put anything before God. I mean, he's a jealous God, we're not. I have, and it's not good. The outcomes it's nothing but trouble, tribulations, trials, heartache, pain, everything else. So anything before him, that's what we get.
Speaker 2:Absolutely when you put him first, he he basically keeps, keeps you from having to deal with all that stuff he takes. I don't know, I don't can't explain it, but other than it's amazing the goodness that he does when we put him first and we don't have to deal with all those issues.
Speaker 1:All right Amen. Sister, Brother Jeffrey, encouraging servant, Open every march brother.
Speaker 4:Good evening Jonathan and good evening panel Jonathan. I think here Paul's warning to the church of Galatia about idolatry and witchcraft is speaking to anything remotely connected to the occult mysticism, any power or deity other than God, the Son or the Holy Spirit. And so he is warning them that this, as you and I were talking about the other day, can be very, very subtle sneaking into the church and it's a possibility of some of what has happened here. And Paul is addressing that in the Scripture to the Galatian church. So we need if he's giving that warning to the Galatian church, we need to always be looking at and reviewing everything that we believe to make sure that there is no idolatry or witchcraft involved. So we need to be very prudent and very careful in this regard. So that's my opening statement Just to Lisa.
Speaker 3:Hey, so happy to see you. Glad you're doing better.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:So my opening statement is I totally agree with, obviously, Candy and Jeffrey, but I just want to kind of add something along for idolatry. Today it's a little bit different. I know people usually think of making a worshipping something, but I've come to realize it's anything that we place before God or above God. I should say Maybe we don't want to get into our word because it's more important to go to the football game and you know. Just certain things like that we need to really be careful of today. And I've also learned that witchcraft another thing that can be attributed to witchcraft is manipulation, you know, trying to make an outcome. We're not necessarily speaking of magic spells or anything, but I think a lot of times people try to manipulate by using emotional feelings and so on and so forth. So I'm anxious to get in here and see what you have. That's all I have for openers.
Speaker 1:All right sister Brother Jeff, man of God, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 5:Well, lisa was talking about that. She mentioned football. I know, in 2nd Hezekiah it says God says thou shalt not put football above me, but you can put it just below me. Second, hezekiah, it's a joke.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I didn't know.
Speaker 5:I could have said Psalm 151.
Speaker 1:I was like second Hezekiah Okay.
Speaker 5:Yeah, psalm 151. I caught a Christian singer quoting Psalm 174. Oh my gosh, I said there ain't no Psalm 174.
Speaker 4:It's in Revelation 23, isn't it?
Speaker 5:Yeah, Revelation 23. That's what it says. Well, anyway, on a serious note, yeah, I was just joking, Second Hezekiah. But you know, the thing is I'm going to make a confession. Well, it's not really a confession, it's not really my fault. I married a young woman years ago Gosh, it's been 20 years ago, Turns out she was studying to be a Wicca. A what A Wicca. That's what witches call themselves today Wicca.
Speaker 1:And you didn't know about this until after you married her.
Speaker 5:Right, wow, okay, she said she was a Christian and I hope she was. But the thing is so I know firsthand about this Witchcraft is literally trying to reach out and tap into powers. Now, supposedly the Wiccans say they're white witches and everything. It's all satanic. I mean, if there's any power to be tapped at, it's evil. But the thing is the reason why I say I hope she was a Christian. She was the only wife of mine that died. She was killed in a car wreck on Halloween night.
Speaker 5:I mean, let me tell you something. Uh, I I'm still probably not over it. Uh, because I kind of thought, you know, did I don't know? I don't even know, I can't, I still can't wrap my head around it. But uh, anyway, you know.
Speaker 5:Anyway, you know, all these things arise out of our sin nature and it's only you know, as we will see following. You know, that we have the Holy Spirit that can help us counteract that, resist them, tamp them down, eliminate them, whatever you may say. And no, ricky, there's no light witches and dark witches, they're all the same, trust me, they're all the same. Yeah, I was responding to a comment here. There's light witches and dark witches. No, there's not white witches and black witches, they're all the same.
Speaker 5:But anyway, but that was kind of my thought. Uh, it's. It's one of these things that you know, I mean to be so close to something like that and not be ensnared oneself is, uh, is is a frightening thing, and to see what may have happened, I mean there may be. I, I don't know, I can't wrap my head around it. I mean, did she die violently in a car wreck because the Lord wanted to take her home before she got too deep into it? Or did somehow God let Satan take her? I don't know. I don't know where she's at. I don't want to say she's in hell, but unfortunately she may be, and that disturbs me a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, to be honest with you, brother, it's not for us to know why he did it. Yeah, he doesn't tell us that he just does what he does and he has his reasons for doing what he does.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I don't question him.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it could have been to keep you from going down someplace. You shouldn't go.
Speaker 5:Well, that was my other thought too. But the thing is I don't question him, it's just that you know, I'll know as soon as I cross over you know, when I go to heaven. If she's not there, well, there you go, I'll know. I don't know if I'll want to know when I die, but you know anyway. But the thing is, these things can be so horrible. I mean, we think of sin as sin, but sometimes sin can be fatal. You know, ultimately, the wages of sin and all that. But I'm saying sometimes, I mean, this woman was only 24 years old. I mean you know she expected. You know, I would have said I'd expect her to live 50 years. Well, unfortunately that's not true. It didn't happen that way, right? So anyway, that was my thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah, candy, you were going to say something else.
Speaker 2:I was just kind of thinking because of what Lisa had said about the things that is considered and all of the satanic hidden messages that are within it that no one really even considers, unless you're knowledgeable in the word to be aware of such things. Because, like there's so many hidden things that the enemy is trying to sneak in and manipulate people with. That's just like what's his name. Oh crud Got attacked by the bees for trying to make the scary Jesus movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Nick was king.
Speaker 2:There you go. You know what I'm saying. It's things like that. So, jeff, with all due respect, like I that power of Jesus in that one split second, like for somebody playing with him in that type of way? Look at what he did to him. I mean, I'm not going to say that wasn't him, because it's just ironic of how that happened that I wouldn't say it wasn't. That's's. Don't. Don't play with the lord man like that's that fear. That's why that's what we should fear, that type of fear.
Speaker 2:Don't play with him like that right, it's not hearing his love like we're not supposed to be scared of him. We're supposed to fear the things that are against him yeah, well, you know nowadays ain't no joke, sorry, go ahead it's.
Speaker 1:You know, when it comes to the, when it comes to the lord, people think that they, that god is what they shape him out to be for themselves. You know, and this is, this is, this is epidemic in the world. God has to be, it must be what I think he is, and everyone who doesn't think that I think, how, how god is, they are heretical, they're wrong, they're wicked. They don't know this, so therefore they can't be christian and all these things. Everybody, you know, people have a tendency to want to create a god of their own. So you can be worshiping, you can think you're worshiping the true God with your Bible, with your church, all those kind of things, and yet you've turned him into a different God. Worship that different God and then he becomes, or that God becomes, an idol, even though you call him Jehovah, even though you call him Jesus. You know, you have people who say, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, jesus Christ is not divine, he's not God, he was just a man, a good prophet. Yet they say that they worship him, just not as divine. So they worship an idol, because that is not the God depicted in the Bible. Christ is depicted clearly in the Bible, whether people like it or want to embrace it or not. He is presented by himself and he's presented by his father as God in the flesh, and so people are confused about these things and they go about to make a God after their own design.
Speaker 1:So here in idolatry, in this first work of the flesh that we're dealing with tonight, idolatry the first of two that are constituted in Galatians 5, 20 and 19, 19 and 20. These two idolatry and witchcraft or sorcery. These are religious sins and they are religious perversions. They're not the true religion and they corrupt the true worship that is designed for man by God. Of whom only should we be offering up any form of worship? To Only him, no one else. The God of the Bible, that's who we worship. We don't have license to create other gods to worship. We don't have the prerogative to set about to say that, well, all people's religion points to God. We are told that, yeah, there are men that pray to God, but they don't know him. It's not enough to know who he is, you need to know him personally. You need to know him personally. You need to know him personally.
Speaker 1:So when you give Undue honor, when you give undue honor to that which is not God, which could only be creaturely or a manifestation of a creature, us or turning some other creature, like an animal or something, into some kind of a God, like people often do with things that they want to associate with God.
Speaker 1:These things turn people's hearts from God. Anything, anything like Sister Lisa said, anything that turns your heart from God is an idol, anything. So when you go back into the Old Testament and you think you're being very literal with things and you say, well, no, idolatry can only be if you build something made out of wood and you bow down to it, that is not solely and purely what idolatry is. Idolatry is that object or that image or that being, whatever you want to call it, whatever it is that you elevate above God. And not only that you elevate above God, you give it, you give this, this, this entity, whatever it may be, you give it value in your own heart as as a object of worship, because it takes your attention, it gets your attention over and above God. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead, encourage your servant, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, jonathan, I just wanted to add here real quick that even in our desire to be good husbands to our wives, or, ladies, good wives to your husbands, we can allow that to become an idol as well. Even though that is an excellent and worthy goal, okay, if we allow that to become number one in our lives to be the best husband or wife, instead of putting Christ first in our marriage and then being empowered by the Holy Spirit to be a godly spouse, we can make our spouse an idol. We can make it like Jonathan says. We can make anything an idol. Yeah, and Jonathan, the bad part about this is oftentimes we make good things, things that are meant to be good, into those idols. Not, not bad things, but good things. We have to pull back away from them or get rid of them completely.
Speaker 1:Right, right you know people, you you can tell generally speaking. You can tell generally speaking, what the kinds of things that people worship. Because here's something else you might. You might believe in the true god of the bible, but if you also give something else or someone else equal footing with god, this is still idolatry. There can be no other connection or it can be nothing else that drives the attention, that channels the attention or harnesses and procures the attention of the center.
Speaker 1:Whatever that may be, is idolatry, even if you are also associating yourself with the true God. He will not share his throne with anyone or any idea. Nothing he doesn't share. That's what the Bible means when it says he is a jealous God. His worship cannot be bifurcated by you. You can't go and say, well, I'm worshiping God, that's cool. But I also, you know, got my fortune teller that I go visit on the weekends or whatever. But not even just that, because a lot of things that we can talk about, people are going to say, oh well, nobody does that anymore. Because a lot of things that we can talk about, people are going to say, oh well, nobody does that anymore, never realizing the things that they actually still do. Candy, you were going to say something.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, candy and then Lisa, I was just going to say, like he was saying, the things that we consider to be good, like crosses on necklaces or bracelets or rings, you know, things like that simply can become something that someone doesn't realize that they turn it into an idol too, because when they like, when they're worshiping God, but they're actually fiddle or faddling with that item or something like that, it's easily to get caught up and not realize that that's what you're doing. It's you you got to be mindful of, of the things that we do do. That's just the key factor in it. And horoscopes, horoscopes. People don't realize that horoscope is a as a witchcraft, like no one's supposed to know. I mean, you know, we're not supposed to depend on anything to tell us what our future looks like. Only god knows that. So stuff like that is considered they, they seek that and consider that to be an idol too in certain circumstances right, right, just elisa go ahead
Speaker 3:so, um, I have a little story about my middle daughter. She had had my first granddaughter and a few years later she was trying to have another baby and she was finding it difficult to become pregnant and she literally became so obsessed with becoming pregnant and she, she's her. I don't want to say that she quit worshiping and so on and so forth, but she's born again and her whole, like there was no joy in her and there, and I, I don't know, I don't know if the Lord put it on my heart, but I had a talk with her and I suggested are you making this pregnancy an idol? Have you stopped communing with God? Have you stopped doing the things that you should have? And I'm not suggesting God was withholding that for any reason. I'm not suggesting this is even true, but it was a consideration because of the way it overcame her life. That was her life.
Speaker 3:There was sadness the next time she would try and find out that she wasn't pregnant. And it went on for months and months, and months and she got pregnant and she lost the baby when she was a few months pregnant. So she surrendered. She was brought to the low point, literally surrender. And I said to her you have to thank God, you have to. I mean, she went to see fertility specialists, so on and so forth. There was nothing wrong, I said. It is God that decides when you have a baby. Just don't. I think she was ignoring her husband and everything Fast forward and she ended up having a beautiful. My second granddaughter is so beautiful and so loved. But I think it was a lesson learned for her. You know it was a very hard lesson. She lost a baby in the process. So again, I we don't say that was anything. You know, we don't consider it punishment, we don't consider it anything like that, but it was something that will will remain and she is going to not forget that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Right, I know what you mean, you know and it's, it's, it's, um, you know it's, it's, it's understanding in some, in some ways, especially when you think about mothers in the Bible, like Hannah, for instance, who wanted a baby so bad, like Sarah, who wanted a baby so bad, plenty mothers where I could look at them and think this lady worships her children. It's sort of like Brother Jeffrey was talking about. There are people who worship their spouses, there are people who worship their children, there are people who worship their jobs, who worship their bosses, who worship sport. You know, see, today we don't want to call it that Everything that people want to hold on to dearly, we call we either infer it's either a necessity or it's entertainment. You can rationalize whatever you want, but whatever it is that you rationalize that sets itself over and above the creator, it is idolatry, and you can be a professing Christian and be an idolater.
Speaker 1:All those 3,000 people who were dancing around that golden calf, these were all people who were more than familiar with who Jehovah was and what Moses' role over the people as they stand between God and men they knew. However, we saw 3,000 of them lose their lives. However, we saw 3,000 of them lose their lives. And so you know the thing is, people, they find it difficult to step away from things that distract them from the means of grace and embrace those things because they bring them either comfort, they bring them joy, whatever it may be. But men worship things that they ought not to worship and it's getting more and more difficult because men don't want to refer to it as worship. So, and and this is what is wrong with the world today, if there's something you don't like a doctrine, let's say, for example, let's talk about like a doctrine. You don't like a set of doctrinal themes that somebody is trying to tell you about or preaching about or whatever, but you can't really refute it. You heard it over again, you were told you shouldn't like it and so you don't like it, but you don't know why you don't like it and the people like you that don't like it, you guys collectively get together and you frame a term or label that you want to give it, give it that label, and then you just show disdain for the label, which is all encompassing of all the things and ideas you don't want to deal with and can't refute. Like one brother says, you worship, they worship tradition. This is what people do.
Speaker 1:So you get a group of people who are like like-minded, and we go, yeah, that's what we're not going to do anymore, we're going to call it this and we're going to call it that, and then that's what we're going to say we don't believe in, and anybody who says anything that comes close to one point of that, even if there are a hundred. If you come to close to one point and I'm like you, or the one point, well we're going to call it that label and say we don't, we don't agree with that. I can't tell you how many times I have been called a preterist, and which I'm not, but a preterist. And when I asked the people who accused me of that what a preterist is, they don't know. They don't know. And I always ask them what is it? Tell me what a preterist is? And more often than not, they don't know. In fact, not one person, not one person on this platform, whoever called me that actually knew what it was, but they got the term right.
Speaker 1:So it's important for us that when we start dealing with things that take our attention I mean let's take, for instance, this platform, social media. I mean people are taken away with this and it has made people establish themselves as their own idols. It has promoted self-will. It is to promote self. Think about this for a second. You have all your social media platforms. People are obsessed with getting followers, with getting views and with getting ways to monetize and to sell their monetization to other people. This has become an obsession with folks, so they'll do anything, they'll say anything, they will give all their time to it, and when you start calculating what you're giving your time to, you will soon find out if you're honest. You will soon find out what it is you're worshiping, because it's not, because worshiping something that is not God is always the what that you are worshiping. It is never a who, because only God is the who who can be worshiped. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead, encourage your servant.
Speaker 4:Boy brother, you're nailing it head on tonight. But those things that we make an idol, okay, if we let go of those and put God back in first place in our lives. He doesn't always take those things away from us, but he can give us the proper love, the proper desire, his love, his desire for those things, so that we can then have them in the right order in our life after him Okay, not before him or not making them that idol that we bow down. It's not that God necessarily wants to totally remove something from our life, unless it's completely evil, but he simply wants us to get the order of things in our life right and then some of those things can fall into place through his power after he is first in our life and they have no other idol or no other thing that we worship but him. That's been my experience.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask the question to everybody on the panel. Let me ask you this question and anybody who's in the comments. So here's the question. Consider what it.