The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Idolatry & Sorcery (PART 3 of 5)
What's truly separating you from God? The answer might be more subtle—and more personal—than you realize.
This unflinchingly honest conversation cuts through religious niceties to examine how modern Christians allow idolatry to infiltrate their spiritual lives. From political obsessions to entertainment choices to unhealthy relationships, we explore the various altars we build that compete with our devotion to God.
"The way of dealing with this situation is not to point out that somebody else does that. We need to ask ourselves: do we do that?" This challenging question sets the tone for a discussion that refuses to let listeners deflect responsibility. You'll hear powerful personal testimonies about encounters with fortune-telling, palm reading, and occult practices—including one disturbing story of a palm reader's prediction that came true in the most heartbreaking way.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we explore the biblical concept of "pharmakeia" (sorcery) in Galatians 5:20, revealing how this ancient warning applies to anything that manipulates our reality and numbs our spiritual senses. Even well-intentioned Christians can find themselves drawn into practices that seem harmless but subtly redirect worship away from God.
Perhaps most moving are the raw, vulnerable moments when participants share their struggles with relationships and habits that have become idols. One woman courageously discusses her conviction about a long-term unmarried relationship, receiving both compassionate understanding and biblical clarity.
Ready for a spiritual wake-up call that might make you uncomfortable but could ultimately transform your relationship with God? Listen now and ask yourself what might be standing between you and your Creator.
Faith That Challenges. Conversations that Matter. Laughs included. Subscribe Now!
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Now see, when I hear somebody says that, Say something like that. Especially when I've made it clear, especially when I've made it clear that I have been touched by this just as well as everyone else has, I had to tell myself. I had to get to the point where I completely turned it off Over a year ago. But here's the thing I am willing to say Whatever affects me In a negative way. But I can tell you one thing the way of dealing with this situation, when we're confronted with it, is not to point out that somebody else does that. We need to ask ourselves Do we do that?
Speaker 2:And take accountability for ourselves and not anybody else Stop pointing the finger. You either want to or you don't. You either will or you won't. So stop with that crap, man. Nobody can make us do anything we don't want to do.
Speaker 1:That's right, but the but, the but, the goal of it. The goal of what we should be doing is making sure that nothing comes between us and our lord and harvey, and you know. So you have to determine for yourself what is being, what you're rationalizing and and what is being measured. I'm not saying you can't talk about politics. I'm not saying you can't talk about football. I'm not saying you can't go to a baseball game. I can't say. I'm not saying you can't talk about politics. I'm not saying you can't talk about football. I'm not saying you can't go to a baseball game. I can't say. I'm not saying you shouldn't have season tickets to hockey games. I'm not saying you shouldn't do these kinds of things.
Speaker 1:You have to know the difference between idol worship and reverence to God. You have to know the difference between what is truly entertainment and what is just worship out and out, and it's different for every single person. You have to know in your own heart and soul. What I'm trying to do in this conversation is trying to iron out all the things that are out there, to whatever degree that we can, so that we can be aware of these things. Go ahead, sister candy. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:The beautiful part of the Holy spirit who dwells in us. He's how we change. He's how we come to know the things Hush. He's how we know those things aren't right Cause he changes those things. He puts it in us and lets us know to start paying more attention and be more mindful of our profession. Bring me the Bible.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So my sister Blazing Rose? Again she goes. I always vote, but my Lord is above it all. Listen, that's great.
Speaker 1:Nobody's saying not to vote. Nobody's saying not to vote. Christ is the one who said render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, render to God the things that are God's. So no one's taking away your vote. No one's taking away anything. I'm just making a point about worship and where it should be directed. So no one here, who's who, is ultra political. I'm not attacking you. I'm not attacking you. I'm not attacking anybody. But what you ought to do is attack yourself and purge Anything that even looks, smells or hints at idolatry, that even looks, smells or hints at the possibility of our hearts being stray, being made to go astray. So I don't want anybody Accusing me of telling them they can't be political. That's not what I'm saying. So don't get sensitive. You know, and again you will know. You know so when you, and again you will know. You know who people are Because you know when you hit somebody. That's all I'm talking about, because politics Should not be above God, especially in America today. We keep him first.
Speaker 1:Now let's get on to this next one witchcraft. This one is different because we also live in a time where people dismiss a lot of what might come under this category as entertainment, but many of them consider it straight up religion to some degree. But depending on which translation of the Bible you have in Galatians 5.20, you will either see the word witchcraft or you'll see the word sorcery. Does anybody know where sorcery comes from, or what word today that we use that is rooted in this word sorcery? Does anybody know, on the panel Pharmaceuticals, pharmacy, pharmaceuticals the Greek word is pharmakeia and so it talks about.
Speaker 1:You know, in pharmaceutical terms we're talking about drugs, but in sorcery it's not just drugs and it's not just and it's not also drugs specifically, but what it is is, it is whatever that sort of affects your mind, your mind that drives you away from true worship to God. Put it this way Anything that alters reality for you, anything that manipulates your reality, is the best way. So it's just like when you are, if you go out to a club or somewhere, or like when I was in the Navy, you see all kinds of things. When guys come back to the ship from going into the port, they're going there and they'll go get drugs and they'll come back drunk. They've manipulated reality, and when your reality is being manipulated, whether it be temporary or long term, it is taking you away. It is taking you away from things that are divine. So it includes drugs, it includes a lot of other things, but, like my brother, nathan just wrote, we're to be of a sober mind. Anything that leads us from having a sober mind is what this is talking about.
Speaker 1:So you know, you got, you know, you have, uh, magic things. You have enchantments, charms. You know people like to use these little crystals. My grandmother, she went through all kinds of things and she used to take these. She used to take, she had a thing about pyramids and she would put these little pyramid things Underneath her bed. That was freaky to me, even before I knew anything about God. Lisa says sage, you know, you know. There's so many different things and I'm sure that many of you will know more about some of these things than I can even put down on a list. Jeff, go ahead.
Speaker 5:You know sorcery, you know in terms of me reading science fiction fantasy all these years and knowing a little bit about it science fiction, fantasy all these years and knowing a little bit about it Sorcery is when one individual uses literally what they were trying to do is manipulate demons to do things in there for them, either to accomplish for themselves or to manipulate other people. But certainly you could brought in somebody taking drugs to try to expand their mind. I remember when I was just out of high school, very naive, I read this book about this guy. That was basically I think he was doing peyote with some indian and the mexican in mexico.
Speaker 5:Yeah and uh say supposedly this sorcerer could fly. Yeah, I bet he could fly, jump off the grand canyon, probably fly for about 15, 20 seconds. I guess it's not. It's not the, it's not the leap that kills you, it's the, uh, it's the landing. But uh, you know, the thing is all that is to try to manipulate. This whole thing of ouija boards you're trying to find out something about from the other side seances. I wanted to share something too. After I was married, my wife talked me into stopping at a palm reader and she had a palm read, and you know that you want to talk about something really weird and eerie. You know what the woman told her what?
Speaker 1:oh, so you were in there oh yeah, I was with her.
Speaker 5:Okay, she told her. She told her that somebody very close to her was gonna die and, uh, she thought it might be her daughter, and so we ended up canceling a cruise because she didn't want to leave. And this was like when we first got married and then four months later she was killed in the car wreck. So you know, I mean I don't necessarily mean that that palm reader knew something, but it really is disturbing.
Speaker 1:But you were a Christian at this time, right, yeah, yeah, do you mind me asking why?
Speaker 5:you went? Yeah, because I was stupid, you know. I mean I, I mean I was. I was not where I am now. I mean, where I am now is you know. Let me tell you something you won't ever catch me celebrating halloween. It is the most demonic thing. I will not do it. I won't go to a halloween party. I won't dress up. I'd give candy out to kids if they came by, because it's, you know, I'm not going to disappoint the little ones with trick or treat, but I mean the whole thing's demonic and I hate it, you know. And the thing is like, right now, the best thing you can, you know, don't even go to me. I mean, if somebody wants to argue about witchcraft, yeah, come on, bring it on, because I mean it's, it's a boring to me, but at that time I was just trying to be, oh, I guess, accommodating to my wife. You know, I mean my I, my idol was my wife at that time. I guess, for that short time, only four and a half months, though.
Speaker 1:Right, see, this is the thing that I mean. That's a really interesting story. I'll tell you something there's somebody that liked to tell me that a family member that liked to tell me all the time that her fortune teller is always telling her all these good things about me, that I was gonna do all this kind of thing, and I would tell her I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about what a fortune teller told you. I don't believe in fortune tellers, I believe in the lord jesus christ, exactly.
Speaker 1:And see, this is this is the thing that we all need to understand, because a person, a spouse, a, a girlfriend, a boyfriend, anybody that that you really want to be with, that you really want to please, and you know, there are times where you, you, you can be in a situation where people you may want to be with somebody so bad, or just be in a relationship, that you're willing to acquiesce to things that would go contrary to what you would normally do, and sometimes it happens so gradually that you don't.
Speaker 1:It's two, three years down the road before you realize that you got, you got caught up, and so we, as believers, cannot give an inch to any of this nonsense to any of it, and this is one big reason. This is one big reason I'm telling you something like today, when you see, when I see these videos in these church services where the light's bright and there's all kind of people making all kind of noise, and you got these guys in these rooms, you know, casting out demons and people passing out and falling out, whatever. I think this stuff falls into this.
Speaker 5:Yep.
Speaker 1:It's all false. Yep, it's all false.
Speaker 5:Well, and the thing is, what I want to tell you is that was an example of the idol that I'd made marriage Right. In fact, I told you, you know, when we had talked before that I mean, after all these marriages and these relationships, I realized that God was saying look you're. You know you don't need that. I mean I don't know whether he had another plan for me about that or not. All I know is that, after all these failures, what he said was you just need me. Now am I standing here saying that you know he might not ever send a woman to be with me again in marriage? I don't know. But I can tell you one thing she has to be, she has to put God first. If she loves me more than him, I don't want her, right, I mean.
Speaker 5:And that idol for me is, you know, I it's only the last few years, too, that I've realized that, but I mean it was an idol for me, right, and it's, it's horrible to think of and you do all kinds of things. I, I mean that's why I'm broke. I mean, all these women I was married to, you know, whatever they wanted, I got them. You know I was. I called myself a giver? No, I wasn't. I was just worshiping them.
Speaker 1:Brother, let me tell you something you know how hard it would be for the average person to admit that, and so I appreciate that, because I know that that must be hard to say. And so I appreciate that, because I know that that must be hard to say, and I'm sure it's even harder to just have this as part of your memory, especially in that situation and what ended up happening, especially after what that fortune teller or whatever that person was, palm reader or whatever told her. And then it wasn't long before she was gone Right, but it also wasn't. And when she was gone, that means your relation, your relationship with her, you being a Christian, was over. And see, this is another thing, because God is always going to take care of his people. You know what I'm saying, brother Jeff. He is always going to take care of his people.
Speaker 5:he is always going to take care of his people. I couldn't get the mic off. Mic on. Yeah, no, there's no question about that, John. I totally agree with you, brother.
Speaker 1:Because here's the thing. Here's the thing you were in an unequally yoked situation in a bad way, right, all right, and you were probably not strong enough to deal with it the way it probably should have been dealt. But this is what happens when. This is what happens when we don't comply with the direction of the spirit of God that works within us. God will work it out for us if we don't Right. God will work it out for us if we don't Right. That's how committed he is to keep us in the faith and walking consistent with what his designs are and what his will is for our lives. Because if you don't take care of what you need to take care of, based on what he has taught you, based on what the Holy Spirit of God has taught you, based on what your pastor told you, based on what your brother in Christ or sister in Christ told you, you have to be careful, because when God gets involved and he's always involved, but you know what I'm talking about- yes.
Speaker 1:He will do something so radical. You'll be questioning your whole existence.
Speaker 5:Well, the interesting thing is that at the time, the interesting thing is is that you know, at the time you know he could have easily he could have. I mean, you know he might've decided to let her live and take me home, uh, uh to me. There are several things in my life, uh, that have indicated to me that he wanted me to be here because it would be easy. I mean, like I told you last year when I had that bleeding episode and I almost bled to death I've seen many situations like that, that people around my age with my condition they died. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not supposed to say that they passed on, but I didn't.
Speaker 1:And God wants me to be here for some reason well, he wants me to be here, and one of the reasons is because you're here right now, brother, and people get to hear you.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know, I love you man man, you know I love you to death too. You know that we go back a ways, and so so, man, I'm telling you you're here because God wanted you to be here. If you want to know, if you want to know what God's will is, then consider where you are at this very moment. Yes, sir Meg, what am I saying?
Speaker 5:sir, for I'm 10 years older than you, that's true. No, but you're the host. You're the host. There you go. Remember, I was raised in the army. I acknowledge authority.
Speaker 1:Even if they're younger than you. Right, that's right, sister Meg, go ahead.
Speaker 4:And then Lisa. So when I was like nine years old, I had heard from I don't know where it came from. I'm sitting here thinking about it, but my grandfather bought me a custom. It was an original cabbage patch doll. And these, these cabbage patch dolls, were the early ones. The ones that were that I just came out were um, they had witchcraft spells put over them. And do you remember those trolls with the funny hair?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:Same thing. And so one day I went in my room and when I heard this I was like nine. I went and I got a box and I took my cabbage patch doll and I threw it in the dumpster outside. I took those trolls and I threw them. My mom was so angry at me and she was like Megan, that doll was expensive. And she was so mad and she was like why did you do that? I was like I heard that they're not, they're not of God. I got to throw them away and so, like, even these things, these items or whatever they are, they're not of God.
Speaker 4:And, like you know, that's why we can't hold fast to anything. You know we can't love anything. Um, we can't be obsessed over the things that we have. Um, we just can't. And that's that. That that can be a stronghold. You know where people like I can't stand when people say, oh, I love my car or I love my house or I love these things. The Lord told me along, don't you ever love anything above me, especially you know what I mean. So I think it's very important that we have to be careful, like what we say to, even if it's something that we don't mean. You know, like literal love, like the things that come out of our mouth, the word of God says out of the abundant of the heart, the mouth speaks and so whatever is in, you will come out, and you know, being cognizant of that and understanding that, um, you know, we need to correct those things on, do better, you know.
Speaker 1:Yep, Sister Lisa go ahead.
Speaker 6:I was just going to say you know these things the enemy is is just diabolical and he he targets people. He targeted me from a very young age, just like Sister Meg was saying nine years old, maybe younger than that. I became obsessed with the supernatural, had experiences with things moving me, seeing them move, and of course I got obsessed with that. I lived my whole life searching, wanting to talk to dead people, and I knew better than to get on a Ouija board. I knew better than to go and seek a reading of some sorts, but it's just so subtle, things around my house would move and I always had the TV on on supernatural things, just things that you know that God says are a no-no. Of course, at this time I hadn't picked up a Bible at all and I remember even I was in so much turmoil in my brain and I bought a. I spent quite a bit of money on this meditation thing that used frequencies and things to align my chakras, if you will. All the while I'm praying to God to bring me this peace and I finally get you know when we hear the voice of God, that small still voice that said, you got to read my word and I wanted to argue. Lord, I don't need to. I love you, just please help me. I won't understand your word. And he wasn't letting it go. This is his goodness.
Speaker 6:But my point is, these things are so subtle Sometimes you really think that, you know, while I'm sitting here, I look back now and I'm just, I could just be sick to my stomach that I'm, you know, trying to do yoga to all these sounds and get crystals for protection and all these things and all I needed the whole time was just my Lord and I needed to submit to him and I, it wasn't until I, oh my goodness, the first time I read Leviticus and you know the first Old Testament, I cried my eyes out the whole time. And here I am today, great, so thankful and grateful that he in fact. You said Mark Pharmacia, I'm off of all of my prescription medicines. I was on antidepressants for 20 years. I take nothing. I just needed him. We only need him, right, we only need him.
Speaker 1:That's true. Amen, sister. Amen to that for sure, sister. Tina, I haven't talked to you in a second. What are you thinking, you? And then Mariah.
Speaker 7:I'm sorry everybody Trying to do my dishes and listen to everybody For me. I mean, I've lived that life of witchcraft and how real it felt to me that life of witchcraft and how real it felt to me, um, astrology looking into all of that and not knowing anything of it. But, um, I think, at a point where I kind of started taking over my life and, like I said, I felt like I was gonna die twice and I just kept crying out to him and praying that I would give up everything if he just helped me I don't know what's going on with me and just kept praying until I finally started breathing again, to where it just felt so real and that's what turned my life around, to where I gave up everything, changed my life around. And I just feel stuck right now because I feel like it's like how you're talking about unequally yoked.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 7:My partner that I've been with for 16 years. We are not married, but we feel I mean he knows more about the Bible than I do but we feel.
Speaker 3:I mean he knows more about the Bible than I do and he's.
Speaker 7:I kind of ask him questions and I tell him about I keep bringing up fornication because it feels like something strong in my heart to where I feel like it's not right, and he kind of just explains to me that we're like, I guess, lawfully married in his eyes because we've been together for so long.
Speaker 1:No, no, I can't let you walk away with that one. No, that's a lie.
Speaker 7:Yes, I feel like you know. Sometimes I feel like it's just a lie to me, just to keep me here.
Speaker 1:It could also be a lie. You want to believe, to stay there. You know what I mean. Now I don't want to get into your personal life, out in public like this, okay, but I want to tell you this Only because you said it Okay, that's not marriage and you need to be married or out of that relationship, one or the other.
Speaker 7:And if you say that he knows the Bible better than you, well, obviously something is disconnecting there yes, and also because I know like men are supposed to lead right, um, lead us to him and he still does things that I gave up a long time ago. So like to do with marijuana, but I'm just, sister, let me tell you something.
Speaker 1:I know I can only imagine how hard it must be. I can imagine how hard it must be. You know what I mean and you know you have to seek out the Lord and you should talk to him about it. You guys should come to a conclusion, or whatever. You need to have a discussion because it'd be different. It'd be different if you told me he wasn't a believer, or if you told me he wasn't a believer, or if you told me he was a believer and you're not.
Speaker 7:Yes.
Speaker 1:But you're saying that both of you love the Lord, both of you read the scriptures. You even say he knows it better than you. But somebody needs to figure something out, because you need to be married, because what your gut is telling you is the Spirit of God telling you, and you know it. Yes, for a year. That's all I want to say. Like I said, this is public, but as a general rule, these things I have to tell you, I have to tell you, I just need it though.
Speaker 1:And it will be my honest prayer, because even when we got off the phone the other night, when we got off the other night, I went immediately into prayer for you, because what we talked about last week, now I'm doing it again and I'm going to plead heavily. I'm going to plead with God heavily that he forces something in this situation, in your situation, so that you can get rid of some of the sadness that you've been going through or the you know the circumstance that you've been going through.
Speaker 7:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. So you guys need to really sit down and have a conversation, because what you cannot do, what you cannot do, is is because you are christian, he's christian, so the world sees this and you have to ask yourself what am I telling the world?
Speaker 7:right, um, that is so true because, um, we're totally two different people now and he's still the same to where it's like his reputation and all the people that he, you know it's still listening to the same songs marijuana, everything and I know like I wanted us to live right for my kids as well, so we're, like you know, a great example.
Speaker 1:I hear you, I know listen, I know it's rough. Okay, I know it's rough, but you know we're going to be praying for you. I'm definitely going to be praying for you and and I want to see things work out for you and and your, your, your hopefully potential spouse. But something's got to happen there. Ok, it's something that happened because we have to understand that we, as Christians, when people know that we're Christians, when people know that we're Christians, and then they see things with us, they start asking all the questions. And it's not about it's not always just about how we are making things look, but we have to understand something they start equating us and what they see us doing or living in, and they start equating that with God. They start accusing him somehow of being responsible for how we are not consistent with his guidance and we call ourselves Christians.
Speaker 1:I believe 100 percent you're a Christian. I don't believe you'd be here tonight if you weren't. But I also believe that I believe that God is working with you. I believe he's working on you at this very moment. And I'm not talking about in a mystical sense, I mean. I mean like in a real way, especially since we talked the other night what we talked about and I had no idea, as you can attest, about the parts where you talked about the witchcraft or the occult. Whatever you said, I had no idea.
Speaker 7:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know so, but you are important tonight and I want you to know that, in your situation, is something I'm definitely going to be praying for, and these people that are here, I'm sure, will do the same thing.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:OK, mariah, and then Brother Jeff.
Speaker 3:And then, brother Jeff, yeah, I mean, I I've had some instances where, like when I very first was saved, I was like given I don't even know by who, but I was given distractions. I was given like a Hindu book, I was given like a Hindu book, I was given like a picture that the Hindus say like would bring money and all these things. And I was also given not all at the same time, but you know, christian terror cards and yeah, yeah, they, it is out there, it is it, it is, it's a thing. And um, I caught myself like, oh well, maybe because I obviously I didn't have any discipleship, no mentorship, nothing um started like digging into this stuff and then, like my spirit told me what I was doing and I threw it away and I held on to the Christian tarot cards because it said it was Christian, for whatever reason. It was evident to me that the Hindu was not of the same God. But then my best friend, she was like, what are you doing with those? Are you kidding me? Just because it has Christian on the front end of it doesn't make it Christian, girl. And I was like, yeah, you know, you're right.
Speaker 3:So it's like Sister Lisa said, it's so subtle how things can creep in and distract you from the word and the truth of God and what he requires of us, which is not to put anything else above him, in the midst of him or after him, nothing but God and God alone.
Speaker 3:So I do understand this. And my dad, just to talk on the pharmaceutical side, I was just looking and he has to take a lot of medicine and I was like geez, that's a lot of pills that he has to take at this moment, you know, and so I just began to like, just pray in my heart, but it I think the world wants to quiet the Christian, you know, and in more ways do they want to become like the world, not us to become like the world, so that God's plan for those who are it takes longer, if Christians aren't out there proclaiming being bold about the world, for all the numbers of the Gentiles to come in, you know, and I don't know how long that is, I mean a hundred years from now. I don't know who's going to be born that God wills like he wants to bring into his fold. But the distraction of the world is so prevalent and it is so subtle.
Speaker 1:It is so subtle. It sure is. I think that the devil wants to render your consciences numb. He wants to numb your conscience, because when your conscience is numb you don't feel anything, so anything goes, and all you have to do is be caught in one of those vulnerable moments when your conscience is numb and you find yourself succumbing To very things that you end up later becoming ashamed of. And just like Novocaine, that numbs, it wears off and then all the things that it was numbing come back to the surface and you got to get it again and whatever. You know just a doctor, you can talk more to this kind of thing. But what I'm saying is, once your conscience becomes numb, you're no longer susceptible to being obedient to the Holy Spirit because you cloud that communication.
Speaker 1:But he, if you are a true elect of God, he's not going to let you get away. He's not going to let you get away. He's not going to let you get away. See, this is what God does with his people. He says he chastises whom he loves, and when God chastises, when he corrects, it is absolute. There is no possible way that someone who he loves doesn't get that corrective chastening, and there is no scenario where he attempts to discipline his child and doesn't accomplish the goal of that discipline. This is important to understand. When he says there is nothing that can separate you from his love, this is part of what he's talking about.
Speaker 1:You want to go off the deep end? Alright, I'm going to meet you there. I'm going to make it painful, but it needs to happen this way so that you understand Not to go this way again. It's tough being a Christian. It's tough being a Christian, tina. I want you to go this way again. It's tough being a Christian. It's tough being a Christian, tina. I want you to understand this. It's tough. I could tell you stories about my own personal life. I know what you're going through. You know many of us have. I am no saint in the way the world looks at sainthood. None of us are. We are all the same. I am no saint in the way the world looks at sainthood. None of us are. We are all the same. No-transcript.