The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Kirk Cameron Denies Endless Punishment (Part 2 of 4)
What happens to the gospel when eternal judgment gets edited out? We tackle that question head-on after a prominent voice claims hell isn’t eternal. We don’t chase controversy for its own sake; we chase clarity. The stakes are spiritual and practical: if sin ends in nonexistence, why did Christ bear wrath on the cross, and why should holiness matter now? Walking through Scripture, we show why “everlasting life” and “everlasting fire” carry the same weight, why the cross satisfies justice because of who Jesus is, and why finite rebels can’t exhaust an infinite debt.
We also talk about platforms and responsibility. Influence multiplies ideas, including bad ones. When public teachers move the goalposts on judgment, it doesn’t change God’s plan, but it does confuse hearts. That’s where discipleship must rise. We outline a fuller way to share the gospel—naming not just that Jesus saves, but what he saves us from. We trace the logic of divine justice, explore the images of wailing and gnashing of teeth as ongoing defiance, and explain why annihilationism undercuts God’s holiness, righteousness, and love.
Throughout, we keep the tone pastoral and urgent. We grieve where we must and hold the line where Scripture speaks plainly. If you’ve wrestled with questions like “Does eternal punishment fit the crime?” or “How does the cross satisfy wrath?” you’ll find careful answers rooted in the infinite worth of Christ and the coherence of biblical teaching. Join us as we aim for courage, clarity, and compassion—correcting error, strengthening faith, and calling the church to clear-eyed discipleship.
If this conversation helped you think more clearly about justice, hell, and the cross, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a review to help others find the show.
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Go ahead. What do you think, brother?
SPEAKER_03:Well, let me tell you what I think. First of all, I'm totally in agreement with you. You know, if any man speaks other than the word, let him be an abomination and out of my presence. Because I don't want to hear, you know, I'll hear it, but you know, I'll shoot it down like a fat duck trying to fly. I mean, uh basically, uh, you know, let me go back to one thing that's interesting to me is when you think of the sovereignty of God, you know that all the elect are going to be saved. And all the reprobate vape are gonna be damned and they're going to hell. What I see this really damaging here is that basically what he's preaching is go ahead and sin, it doesn't matter. Because he's not, you know, saying this to elect people, whether they know it or not, whether they're saved yet or not, doesn't matter. They're still gonna be saved. But the thing is, let me tell you, it'd be a rotten world if everybody just said, hey, we're gonna be annihilated. We might as well just hoop it up and do whatever we want. Right. I mean, it'd be an awful world. And I think for that reason, you know, he's not gonna change God's plan. He's not gonna do it. But he could certainly create a lot of havoc by spreading this kind of stuff. Because let me tell you, hell, yeah, you know, people may joke about they'd rather party in hell than be pious in heaven, but they don't know what they're talking about. And uh the thing is, most people know that hell is a bad place. Whether they know it biblically or not, it's bad. And if all of a sudden somebody's saying, well, there ain't no hell, you know, you're just gonna be annihilated, well, then why don't I just go kill you, Kirk Cameron? Because I want to. It makes me feel good. You know, I'm not saying this on here to say to get banned or anything. I'm just saying that take away the consequences. What's the point? Everybody'll just do what what they think's best, which they try to do anyway, due to our sinful nature.
SPEAKER_07:Which is which is what they do, which is what they do anyway. You're right. I mean, I I have, let me tell you something. To me, like, I don't I don't have any hate for this guy. It's like I I I am just and not that I matter to him or anybody, it's but it's it's so disappointing. It is so disappointing. And it and it's like when you have people that have this platform, it just you know, and and Christ, you know, the Bible tells us, and John, first John tells us, he says, Listen, I'm going to show you who they are. I'm gonna show you who these imposters are. You're not gonna have to wait until after you're dead to find out. I'm gonna show them to you while you're alive.
SPEAKER_06:And this is what we saw today. This is what we saw with him.
SPEAKER_07:There is no way around it. I'm not gonna sit around here, and I don't care how many people try to tell me, well, maybe, brother, I think you ought to, you know, maybe he's learning or whatever. I don't want to hear that nonsense.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let me say one other thing. To those who are given much, much is required. That's exactly right. And the thing is, he was given he's given a unique platform that most people can't even dream to have. And yet he's done this. Yeah, let me tell you. Yeah, God's gonna require a lot from this.
SPEAKER_07:Man, it's so it is so disheartening, and it's so it is so um disappointing. It's like to have a platform like that, and it just goes to show. It goes to show we need to get ready. We need to get ready because when you got people that have a platform like his going up there and preaching these lies like this, and it just saddens me that we lost Vody Baccom, John MacArthur, R.C. Sprohl. I mean, you got a cube, you got a few, a couple prominent guys that preach the truth today, and it's like this is unbelievable. We need to have more of you getting out there, all of us standing on the Lord's business. Because this is what we're gonna be getting. This is what we're gonna be getting more and more unless we speak up. And we have to. Sister Lisa, what do you think?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I mean, what you said, I I'm I'm so disappointed, um, really pretty bummed, um, because even though he, you know, believed in all the dispensational teaching and such, I I really I thought he, you know, anyway. I I don't I can't I I can't say that he's not gonna come back around and and and repent. And but right now what what this is is he's not, you know. I guess I you know, I I pray he does. I pray he does. I pray he gets on and says, Oh my goodness, what happened right there? I was so so messed up. But you're you know, you may be very um you may be right, and it's so just super disappointing. I tell you this is a good one.
SPEAKER_07:I tell you this, my sister. I would love to be wrong about it. I would love to be wrong about it. I really would. I would love to be wrong about it. Sister Mariah, good thing. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Lisa. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I I was just gonna say in finishing, in what he's saying now, many, many, many will stumble. And like Jeff said, the good thing is he he can't he can't thwart God's plan, and everybody um will come to faith who who belongs to God. So that's the good news. And um That's true, you know.
SPEAKER_07:That's true.
SPEAKER_00:That's it.
SPEAKER_07:Sister Mariah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I don't know who this guy is, but I do know that it is a shame um because it, like you said earlier, it diminishes the very essence and the reason why Christ had to come. Why would God the Father have to pour out wrath on the Son if it was going to be for nothing? You know, we would all just diminish and disappear. And I I don't see the point of that type of suffering. Now, when I do realize that the when these people do uh manifest themselves and reveal who they are, that it is a season. I don't know how long that season, his season it sounded like to was like 30 years that he portrayed to be a Christian, you know, and now he's revealing himself that he disagrees with God and um his punishment, you know. So it says that it's impossible to renew these people unto repentance, seeing that they crucify Christ afresh. So that's my opinion.
SPEAKER_07:And sister, that's why I say, and Lisa, this this is why I say that when people go this far, when they've known the Lord so long, this is why I say they don't come back. They don't come back because they can't. And so and and and the thing about it is, they, you know, like we're never gonna hear, I mean, this guy, he basically says something that I don't see any way unless it happens in the next day or two. And I can't put dates or times on any of these things. I I really can't. I'm not God, and I'm not, you know, I can't say what God's gonna do. I just can't. But I do know this. The Bible tells us very clearly in 1 John 2, I'm gonna show you who the apot who the the fake ones are. I'm gonna show you who these people are. And and so, and and and it is always based on God's truth, his doctrine. There's no possible way that the Holy Spirit can lead this man after after decades to come up and say hell is not real anymore. I used to believe that, but no, but hell is no longer eternal. He doesn't get a pass from me.
SPEAKER_06:He doesn't, because the word of God doesn't give him a pass.
SPEAKER_07:And so I have no sympathy for this, for this kind of thing. Not from a body, not from somebody who's had all that, who's had this platform in this, in this, in this whole thing. He is he he is shown today or this last couple of days clearly, clearly, where he stands. And it's like Mariah brought up, when you understand what Christ did and what he suffered on that cross, you take all of that out of the out of the equation. Why did he suffer wrath if the men, if the men who reject Christ don't have to undergrow wrath?
SPEAKER_06:Annihilation is not wrath. That is not wrath. That is an easy way out.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, I wouldn't be here doing this every night as many nights as I can. I wouldn't have I wouldn't do this at all. And that's the only consequence. And the cross would make no sense to me. The eternal son of God suffers wrath so that the sinner who rejects the eternal son of God mocks him, hates him, despises him, so that they can just disappear.
SPEAKER_06:Consciousness, cognizance, all gone.
SPEAKER_07:This only comes from people who hate the word of God, and they love men above God, they love the will of man above the will of God. This is what we're dealing with today, Sister Ashley. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:And so I can see why honing in on him particularly is like at hand. I get that part, but I want to hone in on discipleship and how important it is. I feel like us as the body of Christ, we are the church. We need to be seeking people and bringing them to the word and bringing them to the truth, right? And this is like all of the other side of standing up. This is the time where we rise, where we stand up, you know, and and speak the truth because there's so much falseness being spoken. The only way to rebuke it is to speak what is really real.
SPEAKER_07:And that's why we're having this conversation tonight, sister, to make sure we set the record straight. And whatever, and to whatever degree that I can, and whatever degree that I hope you can, we have to make sure people understand. Because you know, a lot of people, like I was on a live today, um, briefly, because I wanted to um to uh show some solidarity to a brother who I believe is a is a really good um uh minister of God, a servant of the Lord on this on this platform, the one person that I really believe that, I mean, that that actually leads a live. And um, and somebody was asking me before I got to talk to him, um, so are you a Christian? Yes, I'm a Christian. How did you become a Christian? And at first I kind of chuckled because I was like, I, you know, I was just probably a little prideful, I guess. I'm like, you know. Anyway, and then and then she, well, if you if you were going to tell somebody about how to come to Christ, what would you tell them? And see, we got it in our eye, in our idea, we got it in our minds today, that the gospel is telling people only that Jesus died for your sins, but but but and and so we have all sort of accepted that as the way to evangelize, and we accept that as the as the gospel. But what one of the things that we need to understand, Christ is called the savior for a reason. He's called the savior. So, what you have to be able to do is be able to tell people in your gospel message what you are being saved from.
SPEAKER_06:What are you being saved from? Is your answer going to be annihilation? What does it mean to be saved from your sin?
SPEAKER_07:You can't be saved from your sins in this in the strict sense of of how it can be expressed. You're saying you're being saved from the eternal consequences of the sin.
SPEAKER_06:You already have the sin.
SPEAKER_07:But you need to be saved. So when we talk about being saved from sin, what we're talking about is being saved from the eternal consequences of sin. Now, some people ask the question, well, Christ was Christ was was he was on the cross and he was he was he he died and he raised it, he rose up again on the third day. So why do we have to be eternally condemned if he was only uh in the grave for two days? Does anybody want to does anybody want to give me an answer as to what that is? What is it? Why do men suffer eternally for their sin, but as individuals, and and and why does Christ only have to suffer while he's on the cross? I'll answer that. Okay, hold on. So and so why did is he only have to be because people were people will say that's not fair. That's not the crime doesn't this is what these people oh my gosh, this is what these people were saying. The crime, the punishment doesn't fit the crime if you you get it condemned eternally. Go ahead, Brother Jeff. I want to hear it from you, brother.
SPEAKER_03:They're looking at it from the wrong perspective. The punishment, the agony, the separation occurred at the time he was on the cross when he took all the sins and the father looked away. That was enough to last for eternity in one moment.
SPEAKER_07:But why?
SPEAKER_03:Because it was it was a load of sin that he had to take. He had to take all the sin upon himself, he who was without sin. And the thing is, the grave wasn't his punishment. You know, it's not his punishment. That's right. And that was and when that was done, when he said to telesti, it was finished. But the thing is, when you're unsaved, when you are retrobate, reprobate, you haven't received the punishment for your sins yet.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And the thing is, if you don't accept Christ, Christ is you know covering for those sins, then you carry them for eternity. They can't be removed ever.
SPEAKER_07:Right. So there's something else on there's something else I'm trying to get out of this. Because you're you're right, brother. You're right. You're right. Okay. Sister Lisa, I want you to add to what you just got through saying. Why? Because here's the thing. Christ could have his death, the death of Christ was sufficient, sufficient to turn away the wrath of 200 million planets of sinners. So why is it that every individual in your mind, why is it that every individual has to suffer in eternity as penal retribution for their sins against God, but Christ suffered only on the cross. Why, Lisa?
SPEAKER_04:Well, because of who he is. Christ, he was he was he's God, and he was etern. He is eternal. He is He's eternal.
SPEAKER_07:He That's right. No, say, no, say it. Come on, come on. I'm I'm excited. Come on, say it throws me off.
SPEAKER_04:It throws me off when you do this. Um because of the quality of his person, he is he suffered. He yeah, no one can compare to him. He is he was sinless, he was God, and he took the punishment upon himself. We are eternal beings, and we will either be with him eternally or without him eternally.
SPEAKER_07:What what what Lisa what Sister Lisa just said is what is important. Christ is of infinite worth. It's what yes his value is greater. He is the spotless Lamb of God and He is eternal. If He if He imputes to you His righteousness, guess what that means? That the righteousness that He imputed to you is eternal, hence we have eternal life. If He doesn't impute His righteousness to you, which He does not do to everyone, then the consequences of you being or you uh not having His righteousness are eternal. In fact, He's the one who said He that does not have the Son is condemned already.
SPEAKER_06:Sister May, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:So I mean just to add to that, the I don't know how I can Okay, walk in the hair. So Christ being one infinite person suffering for a short period of time is infinite satisfaction. Okay. Now finite creatures suffering for eternity, you still are never satisfying the dead. Never, ever. Because you are finite now. So Christ in Isaiah 53, he he literally fulfilled and satisfies satisfies God's wrath, but the lost never satisfy the justice of God. Why? Because in Revelation 22, 11, it shows the wicked continue sinning in hell. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still. So that nothing, nothing is stopping. They remain sinful, they never stop rejecting God, they never at one point become righteous ever, they never repay their debt because they're finite, and they continue to rebel. So therefore, the payment is never satisfied nor paid because of that reason.
SPEAKER_07:Never. It's impossible.
SPEAKER_02:So man, I'm trying to put all this into words. So even if we go back to in Psalms, like what you were just talking about, annihilation, annihilation violates so many of God's attributes, it's not even funny. And to be honest, it even violates his wrath. Well, that's that's what I was saying. Oh, yeah. It it violates his holiness, it violates his wrath, it violates his righteousness, it violates all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_07:So it violates more importantly, more importantly, it it'll violate, not more importantly, but equally as important, it violates his justice. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06:That's not justice.
SPEAKER_07:That's not that's not justice. If Christ suffered the wrath of God and men don't suffer God's eternal wrath, that's not justice.
SPEAKER_02:But but let exactly, but we have to let's look at it from our perspective. So in Psalms 910, it says, Ye that love the Lord hate evil. So loving God equals hating what destroy his creation. Now, in Psalm 119, 104, listen to what this says, Through thy precepts I get understanding, therefore I hate every false way. So the more we learn scripture, the more we discern and reject and can't stand this stuff that is false and sinful. Why? Because we hate what God hates. Right. Because we are in Christ Jesus. So I mean, I I could go on for this. I think it's disgusting. Yep. Um, and I'll tell you what, it's a it's definitely a first John chapter 2, 19 for me.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. Uh Brother Jeff, man of God, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03:To piggyback on that, I want to posit two things. One is that uh the physicists have discovered, and I say this since the creation, that matter cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. Right. In the universe. That is a fact. Therefore, even the soul consists of some kind of matter. So the soul is eternal by scientific definition. The other is that the people that are in hell are described as wailing and gnashing their teeth. When you examine that, wailing means crying out vigorously, but it's it's in anger, it's in frustration. It's why am I here? Why do I belong here? They still don't get it. And gnashing is definitely an angry reaction to God. Even in hell, some people will still be angry at God. So, you know, the thing is, what Meg said about continuing to sin is a fact. I mean, they'll be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I mean, that's sin.
SPEAKER_07:Well, Christ and Christ gave us a glimpse into that, even when we look talk about the rich man of Lazarus. He didn't go down, he didn't descend down there and start asking for a way out. He wasn't down there, he wasn't down there mourning for his sin. He was he was asked, he was trying to give orders even still. Abraham, can you send Lazarus up to my brothers uh and tell them not to come to this place? He wasn't begging to get out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:But it shows the depravity of man.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And uh, you know, it's uh it's like it's as plain as the nose in your face. This is this is one of those slam dunk parts of doctrine. Right. I mean, you know, people people can really, you know, I mean, you know, if you really want to get a bunch of Christians stirred up, say, I want to talk about election, that'll get them going. But this shouldn't.
SPEAKER_07:You know, so so let me uh Linda, I haven't heard from you, Linda, yet. Uh, what do you think, sister, before I go on?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I think that it's amazing that people read the Bible and don't really see God as He presents himself to us. Um, He's so awesome, he's so just phenomenal. I mean, just don't express how great God is. So, and of course, as everyone has said, Um, He's infinite. And because His justice is also infinite, um, it carries the weight of sin, whether or not it's small or big sin, all sin is the same to God. And so his justice is gonna be meted out in an infinite way because he's infinite. So um, I I think that um his his covenants, um, his um his statutes, everything that he has told us that represents him and how we're supposed to live our life, when we don't carry it out, we never have been able to, never could. Only Jesus was able to because Jesus himself was the word, and he himself was uh part of the Godhead. And so by him paying that payment for us, it solved the problem for me and you, but it didn't solve the people that continue to sin and refuse to repent. So the justice is gonna be infinite, um, regardless of how people want to um you know soothe away their their um their feelings about you know, I I you know they can't see themselves going to hell, but that's where they will go.
SPEAKER_07:That's my sister, that's my sister, y'all. That's my sister right there telling the truth. Sister Ashley, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:And just like a message to the body, also, is like there's so many secondary things that we that we hone in on with our time, but right now the time is the gospel. Like we need to deaden all the all the stuff that really, you know, doesn't really matter. If somebody celebrates something and you don't, then you know let them celebrate. We need to celebrate in the gospel, we need to share that. I felt the need to say that because sometimes we get wrapped up in things that don't matter, guys, and and and right now it it's time to share the gospel.
SPEAKER_07:Let me ask you this question. Do you think this doesn't matter?
SPEAKER_01:Do I think what doesn't matter? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_07:Do you think what we're talking about? Do you think it does not matter?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I absolutely think that it matters because if if people are in opposition of the truth, we need to speak up on that also. Um like I'm talking about like secondary, like, okay, oh Halloween, it's the most evilest day in the world. If that's what you think, so be it. That's like that's your conviction. Awesome, have at it. If the next person wants to, like those secondary, like exposing the truth, like Ephesians 5.11, that thing, absolutely true. We should do that.
SPEAKER_07:Now, you know, a lot of people are writing in the comments about Kurt Cameron didn't say what he said. He did say what he said. I heard it myself. I'll forward you the video if you want to see it. I heard it comp thoroughly. So he did say he does he believes that, and he did say that if anybody um can show him differently, then then show it to him, he's willing to listen to that. He did admit that. So I'm just telling you, don't try to tell me he didn't say that. He did say that. So, so um, and and and it's not just me. So I listen, I understand nobody wants to see anybody become a villain. But the fact of the matter is, we need to understand this is what's going on in the world. This is what it is. If we don't recognize it, then what is the point of reading and understanding God's word? What's the point if you can't recognize it? You see what I'm saying? I'm not pointing to you, Kelly. I'm not even talking about what you wrote. So nobody take it personal. I'm just telling you what I read, I mean, what I heard and saw with my own eyes and listened to it several times. And I will forward it to anybody who wants to get, who wants to see it. So don't try to tell me he didn't say it. I know exactly what he said. I heard it. My him in the video. And he specifically said, he specifically said that that this is his new position based on something, some somebody he was talking to who told him about this, and that he said that if somebody can convince him otherwise, he says he just believed this, hell was eternal, and he was he just believed it because he was taught that, but now he sees differently. I heard what he said.
SPEAKER_06:Stop saying he didn't say it. He did. He did. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_07:And here's the thing: it's not even really about him. Because it's really about this is this kind of teaching is what is being is what is becoming more and more pervasive. And as the c as the time, as the clock winds down on prior to the you know the Lord coming, we're gonna see more and more of this. And we as believers are supposed to be able to recognize it when it happens. What is the point of reading the Bible, understanding all these things, if we don't recognize what it is talking about? I just don't get it. Everybody wants to try to neutralize everything and say, oh no, that wasn't evil, that wasn't bad, that wasn't, he's the, you know, we're all Christians.
SPEAKER_06:No, we're not. We're not.
SPEAKER_07:We have two-thirds of America, and actually two-thirds of the planet, that professes to be a Christian. How is that possible? Considering all the things that are going on. But that's another, that's another thing. Matthew 25. Matthew 25, verse 41. Words of Christ. Words to live by or words to die by. He says, then he will also say to those on the left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This is Christ. These are his own, his own judicial sentence. This is not a parable, but this is a prophecy. A prophecy. Now, if I ask any Christian, what does everlasting life mean? If I ask anybody, Meg, what does everlasting life mean? If I say everlasting life, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_02:Everlasting to everlasting, from age to age, no beginning, no end.
SPEAKER_07:Everlasting is everlasting. So here's the thing. So if we say everlasting damnation, what must that mean? Anybody. Everlasting. Everlasting. And the crazy part is, is that we all think, we all believe that everlasting is what it is when it talks about eternal life. But when it comes to eternal condemnation, it doesn't mean that. Somehow, this is a metaphor. This is analogous to something else. This was spoken to the Jews of that day. This was spoken to the Gentiles of that day. This was spoken, this is the word in Greek in that particular passage was meant to be this, and it was used in the middle active voice that was denied the neutral, the neuter gender verses, and this is this is what people do. All this nonsense. But they're clear when it comes to everlasting salvation. That's what that always means. Suddenly, when it comes to eternal everlasting condemnation, it means something different. Now, notice what Jesus says also that when he says, Depart from me into everlasting fire, he gives the command to these folks, depart from me. And this marks a permanent exclusion from the presence of God.
SPEAKER_06:A permanent exclusion, notice, from his presence. Annihilation is different. Annihilation is different.
SPEAKER_07:Eternal condemnation is being excluded from the gracious, glorious presence of God. From the friendly face of God. And so, and then he says, Everlasting fire. Everlasting fire, it establishes something that is clearly irreversible, clearly unending in duration. Clearly, and that it is punishment. The same judge who promises eternal life, he speaks of eternal fire. In the same identical terms. When God says, when Jesus Christ teaches us and tells us about we who believe have eternal life. Why people start picking and choosing what the same words mean in one place and saying that it doesn't mean even when they're used in the same exact verse. Even when they're used in the same exact verse, they start getting crafty with language.
SPEAKER_06:And they start going to the Greek.
SPEAKER_07:Than anybody who's been taught in school or whatever. Or seminary. Fire in scripture has always symbolizes not annihilation, but torment. There's no verse in anywhere in scripture that teaches anything about annihilation. Fire has always been associated with torment. For the believer, fire has always been associated with what? Purification. For the wicked, fire is tormental. For the righteous, it is purifying.
SPEAKER_06:Why this is confusing for people, I don't know.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know. This is purifying for the believer, for the righteous soul, but it is punal, penal retribution for the wicked. May go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, just a couple things. Well, when we see what John says when he's baptizing Jesus, he says, But the one who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. You don't want that fire. Why? Because there was believers and non-believers standing in the midst of this happening. And so in the next verse, we see that Jesus is talking about that he will purge his threshing floor. So you don't want that back that that fire, right? Second thing, with annihilation and all this other stuff, what what