The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: Kirk Cameron Denies Endless Punishment (Part 3 of 4)
What if softening judgment drains the cross of its power? We take aim at a growing trend: the instinct to escape—through pre‑trib rapture hopes or annihilationism that promises sin ends in sleep. Our argument is simple and sobering: if condemnation is not truly eternal, then the wrath Christ bore loses its moral necessity, and the gravity of sin evaporates into sentiment. That shift doesn’t just alter a doctrine; it alters the gospel.
Together we peel back the layers. First, we restore the gospel’s order: law before grace. Without the weight of God’s law, people never feel the debt of sin, and “accepting Jesus” becomes a slogan instead of surrender. Then we turn to Scripture’s language. In places like Matthew 25, “everlasting” modifies both life and punishment. You can’t stretch the word to promise endless joy while shrinking judgment into nonexistence. We also tackle proportional justice: Jesus speaks of greater and lesser punishments. If everyone ends in oblivion, those warnings collapse into noise.
We press into the heart of the matter: death as separation, not cessation. Hell is facing God without a mediator, existing forever under wrath rather than favor. That’s why the saying about Judas—better not to have been born—cuts so deep. If annihilation merely returns one to nonexistence, how is never existing worse? The coherence of Scripture, the holiness of God, and the necessity of Christ’s atonement all point in the same direction: eternal life for those in him, eternal punishment for those who reject him.
This isn’t about cruelty; it’s about clarity that makes mercy shine. When judgment is real, grace becomes amazing again. If this conversation challenged you or sharpened your thinking, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a review to help others find the show. What do you think “eternal” means when Scripture uses it for both life and punishment?
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Today, this is my question. What today do you think makes Christians feel so entitled that they get to escape everything? They there, we we got the the pre-trib rapture, everybody's gonna get to escape, go off scot-free, then at which Kirk Cameron believed in. Now he's going to annihilation where again people are escaping. What what do you think this concept is? Where did it come from? Why does it I don't understand it, but we don't see it. I think it's because people see suffering as a way that's bad instead of it glorifying the Lord or tribulation, because unbelievers can't go through tribulation, because that's tribulation is not a word for unbelievers. It's a word for believers. So basically, my question is like, why is this escapism, I guess I could call it, it is coming through in the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_06:Well, you know, this has been going on for this has been going on for a long time. I mean, you know, the Catholic Church, they invented purgatory, you know what I mean? But the whole idea is that is that, I mean, I can't speak for any one idea. But what I do understand is that men, especially in 21st century America, for instance, we have this idea of what we consider to be fair. And like, like one of the guys, one some guy said today, you know, well, you know, in this in this conversation with with what's his face, talking about the the the crime, uh, the punishment fitting the crime. And I'm like, are you like are you really are you really saying that? So what you're what you're what you're saying is is that annihilation are you saying that annihilation satisfies God in a way that the wrath of God that was put on Christ did? Are you saying that annihilation equates to the wrath of God that was put on Christ? Because that's what you have to say. Because annihilation is the ending of your existence. Christ was the eternal Son of God, and it was required that he come here in order to re take away sin, because only an eternal, sovereign, holy being could do that. If eternal retribution is not what what sinners who reject Christ was going to get, there would not have been the need for the eternal Son of God to come. I don't know why this is, I don't know. See, this is this should be the ABCs and the one, two, threes of Christianity. That's what this should be. Anybody who doesn't any Christian who doesn't understand this needs to go back and sit sit somewhere and go take some time to study the word of God. Because you should not be a Christian a year without knowing this. You can't fully appreciate what Christ did on that on that on that tree. You can't appreciate it if annihilation is the outcome of what your debt is to God. You can't appreciate what Christ did on that tree if you don't understand the wrath of God. You can't understand it if you don't understand why Christ came here.
SPEAKER_07:You know.
SPEAKER_06:And so the whole idea is a terrible subject to have to talk about, but it must be done. It must be done. Christianity has allowed mankind to skate through life, believing that there are no consequences for sin. We don't understand the sinfulness of sin. We don't. So to have men sit in a podcast talking about, well, I don't think this is what God would do if he were being fair. This is not something that I think we would call consider fair. I think this is a massive imbalance of justice. This is this is a miscar, this is a a what is that that expression they make? A miscarriage of justice. If God is good and holy as the Bible says he is, if God is the loving God he says he is, he would never condemn people to eternal life forever. That seems harsh to me.
SPEAKER_07:That's what these fools are talking about today. All smiley and giggly. Oh, yeah. It's a lie. It's a complete and utter lie.
SPEAKER_06:You may not like how I'm saying it, you may not like how I'm coming off, but you gotta listen, just forget all of that and focus on the word itself. Please look at who Christ is and what he did. And you have people discredit what he suffered on our behalf on that cross and reduce it down to annihilation for those who reject the Savior.
SPEAKER_07:It's insanity. My head's gonna explode. Sister Mariah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03:Um I was just saying I was I just wanted to say that it just reminds me of the the seeds that fell on on certain grounds. And the difference was is that the other the seeds that fell on other than good ground, they had no understanding. But the seeds that fell on good ground, they received it and they understood. Well, what is it that they understood? You know, you have to understand the bad news before you can understand the good news. And this is a lot of the time why you see people fall away because then they use the expression that you said, well, I just can't see uh God doing X, Y, and Z because that's not just to me. And I just can't understand why God would go ahead and put somebody in eternal hell or pick and choose X, Y, and Z. It's because they don't understand. So therefore, you know where that seed has landed.
SPEAKER_06:Amen, sister. I mean, you know, uh going back to what I I I described um when this this young lady asked me about am I a Christian and what would I preach the what would the gospel be? Here's what is missing. Uh and and this is like for me everybody has their different setting when you are sharing the gospel with someone on someone. And and I believe that the scripture gives us a clear outline, a clear outline on how we present the gospel. And that is we introduce people to the law of God. We introduce them to the law. Remember the rich young ruler? He wasn't, when he came to Christ, he saw him far off in the distance. He came running, got on his knees, and said, Good Lord, what must I do to be saved? Good master, what must I do to be saved? And what did Christ say? Why do you call me good? He didn't say, Oh, well, since you're on your knees, why don't you just bow your head and say this little prayer after me? That's not what he did. This whole thing, like Lisa, you put out a great uh text thing today where where it says we don't just accept Jesus Christ. This is this is the gospel that people are preaching today. Just accept Jesus Christ. What do you mean accepting? Accepting. You see, this is this is the mentality that we have today. This goofy, slushy gospel that has nothing to do with that doesn't that doesn't make people fear the Lord. They don't fear the Lord. Accepting Christ, these altar calls, all that nonsense. People need to be introduced to the law of God, they need to feel the weight of their sin. They need to see that they have violated the Most High, that they've transgressed his law, and they must be brought to despair, they must be brought to wit end.
SPEAKER_07:And godly people aren't telling these people this.
SPEAKER_06:God has a wonderful plan for your life. He just has a wonderful plan for your life. If you just if you just open up your heart and accept Jesus, then he will save you and show you the way. Just come as you, you know. The thing about it is, we people need to be introduced to the law of God. They need to see themselves as hopeless in his law. And they must be drawn to the point where they say, What must I do to be saved? And even then, when when it was when Jesus was asked that question, what must I do to be saved? What did Jesus say?
SPEAKER_07:With men, it is impossible. Am I lying, or is that what he said? That's what he said.
SPEAKER_06:And with God, all things are possible. He said, with men it is impossible.
SPEAKER_07:With God, all things are possible. Brother Faux Field, go ahead, brother. Say what you gotta say.
SPEAKER_06:Tell us something.
SPEAKER_08:How you guys doing today, man? All right, brother. How are you? Pretty good, pretty good, man. Um I just wanted to say um God actually gave me some revelation about this stuff today, man. It was um some great revelation that actually took me to Exodus. Um, so it's kind of crazy. So like I was talking to my mom and um just kind of giving her a breakdown, and I don't know, Pharaoh just came to my mind. Um, and it was really because I was okay, that's what this would have was. I was talking about my child and how it's important to follow what Proverbs, Proverbs 13 uh 24 was saying, right? You um you spare the rod, right? That means you hate your child, right? And um, I really got to see because God always showed me stuff, right? Uh um somebody that was just stubborn, you know, completely stubborn, you know, hardened heart, right? And God just gave me like this great revelation around Exodus. There were 10 plagues that Pharaoh had to face, right, because of his hardened heart. Um, but the main thing it started with, right? And this is the the key thing that a lot of people miss. It started with a snake made out of a staff, right? It was like God was showing you, right, that the serpent, right, right there, showing you that the serpent is what you should be afraid of. That's the first thing it starts with, right? You should turn away just from the serpent alone.
SPEAKER_06:What I'm trying to understand. What do you mean turn away from the serpent? Because they were told, you're talking about when he when they put the serpent on the pole?
SPEAKER_08:Boom. So that serpent, right? So when the serpent hit the ground, whatever, right? It turned into a snake, right? When Moses had the staff, right? Oh, okay. I see. Okay, I see you're going. Okay. God was showing them at that moment, right, that they should be afraid of the serpent alone. That serpent is a representation of Satan. That's a warning for you, right? To see that the serpent alone, right, is somebody that you should not turn to. But instead, right, what was what was happening? Oh, my people have tricks of their own, right? So they try to throw it back at them. They did something that the serpent, right? It did something that the serpent would do, right? It's throw him back, throw it back at God.
SPEAKER_06:Well, let me well let me let me ask let me ask you a question. Because you you you're so what connection are you drawing from that to the eternity of hell and condemnation? Oh, it's it's it's by the cook, brother. It's about the cook.
SPEAKER_08:So it goes it goes as far as this the hardened heart, right, is what people have. That's their stubbornness. Your hardened heart is your stubbornness, right? God is giving you an olive branch. He's trying to let you in by his hand. Simple. He put his hand out, he's trying to give you his hand, but you don't want to take his hand. And this goes far. This goes very far, by the way. This goes very deep.
SPEAKER_06:But I need you to keep it, I need you to try to get it kind of consistent, because I don't want to, I want to give you the time to say it, but I want to kind of get there for me.
SPEAKER_08:No, okay, okay, cool. So if I had to get, I didn't I didn't want to just give you the whole entire thing, just spread all out, right? But I I guess I guess I can give it to you like that, right? All right. So the whole point of Pharaoh going through what he went through, right? Is because he was given a chance, right? Just by the serpent alone. The the revelation was the serpent, right, alone, you should you should turn away from, right? So as the plague starts to go into um the blood, the blood inside of the water, whatever, whatever, right? Every plague, right? His heart gets harder and harder. So everything that he is giving me, right, is related to revelations in the Bible. Everything he's giving me is the rep related to revelations in the Bible specifically. I'm ready for you to land this plane, brother, because you're taking a while. Yeah, but it's it's it look, it I don't have to say if you don't want me to say it, it's cool.
SPEAKER_06:No, no, I want you to see it, but I'm I just I want you to no, I'm not being disrespectful. I just want you to I want you to get there because I I don't want to close off and it's you and me. I got everybody here, so I just want to I want you to get there if you can. If that's okay.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah, but like I said, it's it's a it's a cooking moment. It's not something that you just just throw in. It's like it's something that you you you give a full revelation of and a full understanding of.
unknown:All right.
SPEAKER_08:That's why I was trying to start from the beginning so you can actually understand like what's going on. Because a lot of every all of us has read Exodus. We've all seen um Moses going inside of there and and Moses having to give news to Pharaoh, right? Well, let me saving the Israelites, right? By taking them to praise God, correct?
SPEAKER_06:Right. But let me just ask, let me just ask you one thing. Let me ask you this one thing. Because maybe this is a subject for something different. I'm trying to understand. We're talking about the you know, the the idea of annihilation being taken to be what the Bible teaches contrast uh contract in contradistinction to the eternal condemnation that the Bible talks about in hell. So what I'm asking is, does your story what you're talking about now, how does it relate to um uh an eternal hell versus annihilation? Does it so is that where you're going?
SPEAKER_08:I'm gonna ask you this. How does revelations start? What what's what's the first thing, what's the first thing that they experience, right, in Revelations as far as a punishment?
SPEAKER_06:Hold on. Let's well what this is what I'm asking you. I'm asking you to kind of I'm giving you, I want you to be able to say it if you can, if you can tell it to us, because what I'm saying is I don't want to tie up the whole live to deal with this. If you have if you have like a uh because we can talk about it another time, but I'm what I'm just wanting to know what the connection is, what you're making.
SPEAKER_08:I I'd rather I'd rather I'd rather do it that way then because it's it really it's really a cooking moment. It's one of those things where you start, you start from and you land it, but you land it with a whole revelation and it all makes sense. But if you'd rather me give it to you inside of like a private message or whatever, we can do it like that. That's it like that. That's fully understood. This is something that God gave me uh a revelation to, and it's funny because we're talking about it, but it's it it definitely relates to God gives people chances, right? God gives people chances over and over and over again, and it's different levels of those chances, right? We'll get to it, brother, because I don't want to isolate everybody else.
SPEAKER_06:It's not just you and me, it's everybody here. So I don't want to isolate. So I don't mean no disrespect at all. I really don't. I just want to give everybody a chance to be able to speak freely. As long as you hope you're okay with that. But definitely feel free to reach out to me with that.
SPEAKER_08:It's your live, brother. I don't want to take up your live like that. No, no problem. Brother Jeff, man of God, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I just wanted to say something before to get out of this uh particular subject, but I I have a little bit of a difference of opinion of the serpent.
SPEAKER_06:I mean, God gave me I don't want to I don't I don't want to go down that path with the serpent.
SPEAKER_04:Well, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. All I want to say is that all Moses was doing was showing the establishing his credentials as God's servant by throwing down something that looked like a serpent and it turned into a serpent. That's all it meant. And basically, if there's anything theological about it, when they converted theirs to serpents, his ate them up. But I don't think there's any more than that. That's all one said.
SPEAKER_06:No, but I'm saying it, that's a different subject. So I get I I I I I see what you're saying, and I I just don't want to get off of what we've been talking about. That's that's why. But I I understand what you're saying.
SPEAKER_08:Honestly, and I just wanted to say that what I was about to say actually related directly to this particular thing specifically. That's why I would say, cool. I I'll give it to um um to my brother here uh in a private message, and you'll understand exactly what I'm saying and how it actually relates. But it is a cooking moment, so I'm I don't want to take up the live. I just want to I just wanted to say that in my piece and everything.
SPEAKER_05:All right, no.
SPEAKER_08:I appreciate that. Candy, go ahead.
SPEAKER_10:I could be wrong, but what I literally just thought was Moses was the holy one who threw something key, uh quote unquote the word serpent like down, and people believed it.
SPEAKER_06:Hold on one second, hold on one second.
SPEAKER_10:So but it's it's it's the falseness is what I'm getting at.
SPEAKER_06:I know, but let me let's let's get off this serpent thing. We're not talking about the serpent. I I I I know I get it. Let's let's let's I don't want to get off track. I'm not I don't want to shut that down. That's a different discussion what we're talking about. What I'm trying to get, what I'm trying to get deal with is this this issue of the eternity of condemnation. That's what I want to want to want to trying to finish talking about. So I don't mean any disrespect to anybody. I just don't want to lose the point we're talking about.
SPEAKER_10:And you're good. I just uh would he just said that, and that's what literally like that's what I kind of seen in what was being said. But what I want to kind of go back is when Mariah brought up um the this the grounds. Okay, there was more ungood ground than there was good ground for one. Second, I want to I wanted all night I've been wanting to reflect back on the men of talents based off of something uh brother Jeff said earlier. And it was um I I think we were talking about Kirk and leading people astray, and um the responsibility that's on him for each person led astray. And to me, I like when that was being spoken on, I could see like the the like the the guy who was. The one talent that hid it in the ground, and then what happened whenever he was to bring back to God, he was cast into the lake of fire. You know what I'm saying? So, like I can't remember exactly everything else that I had to go along with it then, because that was a long time ago. But yes, okay. I bought it. That was another thing that to kind of relate. And yeah, send me that link to uh or send that to me so I can see that one. Because I seen the one where he was talking about he just did a book and went to try to do to sit down in the libraries and read the book to children, right? Because he's he says that um the oh gosh, the drag the drag queens or whatever got to read their books in the library, and he was denied being able to read a Christian book in the libraries to the children because that was just something that they uh didn't see eye to eye on with him. So they were denying Christ in the libraries basically. I don't know if that's the same one you seen, but I've seen it like yesterday or the day before. So yeah, I'd like to see the one you've seen because I haven't been on TikTok to be able to see that one that you're talking about.
SPEAKER_05:All right, uh Pig Trocks. Go ahead, brother. Or sister, I can't tell which is what. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:I'm a brother. Um first of all, uh, thank you for this live. I've been watching your videos for uh a while and I didn't know you had a live, and I saw Sister Free and Meg in here. I was like, oh wow, he does lives. This is great. So I saw your job um yesterday and came back today. It's it's great to be on the panel. What I'll say about this is to me, if annihilationism is true, God is a wicked and unjust judge. And I'm I'm gonna tell you why from my perspective. When I was a sinner before God saved me, my fantasy was to sin as much as I possibly could and then just go to sleep and not wake up one day. And that's all I wanted in my wickedness and in my evil. And so if annihilationism is true, God's a partaker of that. You know, He's He's facilitating that wicked mindset, in my opinion, by not bringing justice to bear because these people are are actually getting exactly what they want in their wickedness. Um, at least I can speak for myself. That was me. And maybe I'm just I was worse than others, I don't know. Right. And the other thing I want to add is there's a problem in scripture. Jesus gives a couple examples, and there's some examples in the Old Testament. Jesus says, if you hurt one of these children, you're better off having a millstone tied to your neck. He says that there is severity of punishment in the afterlife. Well, if annihilationism is true, then God's a liar. Then these people who some people are going to be judged in the afterlife more severely than others, well, that's not true because they all get annihilated. So it it it creates problems in my in my view with scripture as well. And that's all I have to say about that.
SPEAKER_05:I appreciate that. I appreciate that, brother. And I agree with you 100%. 100%. Sister Candy, go ahead.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I think I texted this earlier.
SPEAKER_10:Um, so if if the unjust is not going to be justified by the eternal damnation when all said and done, then what we're reading about in Job and him suffering for the good, for being a child of God, then where's the justification in where God tells us that he will have justice for his children? I mean, if we suffer for Christ, where do those suffer that don't have Christ?
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_10:That don't even make sense.
SPEAKER_06:No, it doesn't. It really doesn't. And that's that and that's the point, is that it it absolutely does not make sense, any sense at all. Like if you if you have been a if you're a student of the word of God, and I and I also think that, you know, it this is to me, it seems like something that the Holy Spirit would bear witness in your soul about. You know, I I know that I can only speak for me, but I know that when I came to Christ, there was a sense of relief from something terrible that my sin deserved. And and and and and so I don't understand how this is not common with every Christian. I know, I know that you know, good believers, they they they all know this. I mean, the greater part of Christianity has understood this. And I just don't understand how how this can be Mitch, you read everlasting life and you assume that means you live forever. But when you read everlasting death and condemnation, you think that's annihilation. How does that make any sense? And you can, and like I said, you read these things in the same verses, in the same, like within within a few words of each other, and you separate the two and go, one means annihilation, and one means actually everlasting. But the everlasting of condemnation, that only means annihilation. Megan and Mariah.
SPEAKER_01:So also, if we think about it, right, that God's word does not return void, that it will go out and do what it is said to do. Now, when we hear the gospel, right, the word of God is going to do one of two things. It's either going to save you or it's going to judge you. If if one was going to be annihilated, then would God's word return void if it didn't judge and do something justly in its place. So, I mean, we we can take this to so many levels because why God's word does not return void, it when it's saying that it will go out and do what it is said to do, it's either going to save your soul or it is going to judge and condemn you.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_06:Well, these guys are saying that condemnation is just annihilation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it no, it can't be. Because there is it's either eternal life against a holy and right, I mean, that that a holy and righteous God will save you, right, and and and give you, or it's eternal punishment because you sinned against a holy and righteous and eternal God. There can't be an annihilation because wouldn't it have to go both ways?
SPEAKER_06:Well, it has to be. I mean, whatever it is, like like for instance, everlasting, like in the case of Matthew 25, 41 and 46, everlasting is spoken of as eternal life, you know, everlasting life for the believer. In the same passages, is it is everlasting condemnation for the unbeliever. You can't say that everlasting when it comes to the believer means everlasting life. And then say for the unbeliever that everlasting means annihilation, which has nothing to do with everlasting at all. It has to do with being cut off and losing your existence. Christ, when he spoke about Judas, what did he say? It would have been better for him to have never been born. Well, what does it mean to have never been born? To not exist. Christ says that what Joe, what he got, not being born and never having existed, would have been better than what he got where he is now. And so we look at these passages and we have to ask ourselves, what does he mean when he says that to about Judas? How is it better to basically not exist, to be annihilated? He's saying it was better that you haven't been born. What is it to not have been born? To never have existed, to not to be out of, to have no consciousness, to have no rationale, to have no intellect, to have no animated soul that animates a body. So how is it better? How would it have been better for him to never have been born if Judas was annihilated? Because basically, if Judas was annihilated, that would be what he was before he was born.
SPEAKER_07:Non-existent. So I don't understand how people aren't connecting these dots.
SPEAKER_03:Right now, even as they are alive. And so they still so then they can't comprehend when the second death comes that they will still be alive, right, but in a state of perpetual um death. And that's what they don't get. Um, you know, they don't see themselves as um in need of savior, a saving or um the separation from God here on earth now, you know. So I I think that's a a big issue, what some people not understanding obviously their condition and their state that they're dead, yet they they're walking and they're living. So it's kind of it's ironic enough to say, but you know, that that's the case.
SPEAKER_06:It's true. One somebody said earlier, I can't remember the person's name, I believe it was a lady. Um, um, I believe it was Cindy, I think, or something like that. But somebody said something that was smart and that was wise, and it is true, which is that death is separation from God. Now, that is true. Death is separation from God, but it is separation from the God that favors. Okay, but more importantly, when we talk about when we talk about separation from God, what does that mean? What it means that, and well, I should say this, what does that imply? You can't be separated from God if you're annihilated. Separation implies your existence, but you exist in a different place than where God is. So look at it this way. If you are married and your spouse dies, you would not call that separation. You'd be a widow or whatever. They but they died. You don't call that separation. What do you call separation when you break up, but your spouse lives across town or in another country, another state, another city? Separation implies your existence. You can't be separate from anything or anyone if you don't exist. Separation means there's a divide between you and the other party. And in the case of the sinner, the divide is their sin. And so when we talk about like one of the, you know, I break, I bring this up a lot. One of the one of the best quotes that I ever ever read came from a guy, a pastor named Earl Davies. And he says that he says that hell is facing God without a mediator. Facing God without Christ. That's what hell is. You don't your your separation from God means that you're you you are not in his presence, and all you are going to be receiving from him forever is his wrath. That's it. So that's what separation is. You can't be separate and annihilated at the same time. Annihilation, be you, if if Judas had never been born, you wouldn't say God was separated from Judas. And this these are the kinds of things when we when you read in the scriptures in Romans 8, uh uh 8 uh 38, 38, and 39, Paul talks about how nothing, no, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. Nothing can separate us from that. And he says, not even death. Not even death can separate you from God's love, but death can uh but you can be separated from God. You would be separated from God if you are not separated, if you don't belong to Christ. If you don't belong to Him, you would be separated. But there is no situation where the idea that death can separate you if you don't, if you're outside the level of God, this is what people need to start laying hold of. It's really it's really fascinating when you think about it, but it's really a dreadful thing to have to have to consider. But this is the motivation for sternness and vigilance and persistence in our preaching to those who we love and those who we want to see come into Christ. If you start telling people that annihilation is the alternative, less people have any seriously any serious concern or fear for God. I don't see how that's possible. Um, who did I miss here? Um Candy, go ahead. Candy and then Lisa.
SPEAKER_09:I mean, based off what you just say, everything tonight is what they're doing, they're justifying seen. That's all it is. The enemy is trying to help the world justify being able to do what they want to do, and everything's gonna be okay because either they're annihilated and it's not gonna matter, or they're gonna rise again and still get to live eternally.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_09:Negative.
SPEAKER_05:Amen. Sister Lisa, go ahead. And then full feet.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm I have I have a question, and I I don't know if it's a stupid question. Forgive me if it is. Um this my scripture and your scripture, what you just read, clearly says eternal punishment. We all know what that means. We all know what that means, right? So, my question to you is are these people, is the word eternal um where it says eternal punishment, the same word being used when it's in Greek, for instance. I mean, are they are they messing it up because they're trying to get to it's is it the same word? I mean, how because if it is, then this is ridiculousness to even I I I know that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_06:It's so stupid, it's so stupid, it is it's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_06:It's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02:I'm just trying to figure out how you can go from b all of a sudden seeing eternal um punishment and believing in hell as eternal punishment, and then changing your mind all of a sudden saying, well, maybe that's not the case, because that's what it says. It says it in Daniel and and all over all over scripture.
SPEAKER_06:It says everywhere. I challenge, listen, I challenge everyone here to look at these words. Because I know a lot of people, you know, for some reason, like I said, it's real popular for people to go around going, this is what it says in the Greek. Well, this is one time where there's there's no question. There's literally no question. There is no situation where everlasting is limited, restricted, or does it mean the same thing that it means in both everlasting life and everlasting condemnation? Everlasting and eternal in both in both, it is always the same. It's the same.