The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: (JOB 7:16-12) - Job's Gospel (Part 2 of 4)
What if the hardest truth about judgment actually makes grace more beautiful? We wrestle with the unsettling language of reprobation, God’s command to “let them alone,” and the claim that when divine judgment falls, it is just, final, and not ours to reverse. From Exodus to the plains of Sodom, we trace how Abraham’s intercession reveals both the depth of God’s justice and the precision of his mercy, and why Lot’s rescue shows preservation without diluting judgment.
We press into a pivotal question: why are people finally cast into hell? Not simply for rejecting an offer, but for sin that demands justice. John 3 reframes everything—humanity stands “already condemned,” and the gospel is rescue for the dead, not good advice for the neutral. That’s why the cross is not a symbol of sentiment but the place where wrath and mercy meet. We challenge soft revisions of eternal punishment that might sound compassionate but end up shrinking the worth of Christ’s sacrifice and the urgency of faith.
Then we turn to Job, who begged God to leave him alone. The answer was mercy through refusal. Had God let go, Job would have cursed him; instead, God held him in and through the fire. Affliction becomes severe mercy, like a shepherd who wounds to heal and keep a sheep from ruin. This is the tender core of the conversation: grace is not God looking away; it is God refusing to let go. We close with a call to sober hope—preach Christ, pray with urgency, and rest in the assurance that the Savior’s intercession is stronger than your weakness. If this challenged your assumptions or strengthened your faith, follow the show, share this with a friend, and leave a review to keep the conversation going.
BE PROVOKED AND BE PERSUADED!
Elect.
SPEAKER_02:But the reprobate is the opposite of the elect. The reprobation is the opposite of the elect. There are those who are elect, and there are those who are rejected.
SPEAKER_01:Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:The reprobate has no mind or no concept, Jonathan, that they are rejected. They are totally clueless and absolutely oblivious to that point that they have been, God has turned them over to whatever it is they are indulging in. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:When Moses was appointed to stand in the gap between Israel and God, you find this in Exodus 32, verse 10, where God says, Now therefore, let me alone, he tells Moses, let me alone quit bugging me on their behalf. Let me alone that my wrath may wax hot against them, that I may consume them. And we know that he did not do that. But this is what he was saying to Moses. And here's the thing. When God says and has communicated by way of his judicial providence to let them alone, there is nothing else that can be done to overturn that.
SPEAKER_01:Let me say it again. When God reprobates, it is irreversible.
SPEAKER_02:It doesn't, it doesn't, you can't fix that. But keep in mind, as I said, none of us know when he has done that. We don't know if he's done it to us. We don't know if he's if he's done that to someone else.
SPEAKER_06:I have a question.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, you said that uh repeat what you just said. I'm sorry, because something just came to me where you said that uh God is nothing that we can do when God turned them over. And um I just have a question. Is that the same as when God told Abraham, was Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? And Abraham interceded on his behalf, on their behalf, and God changed his mind because he did find someone who was righteous to be saved. So, and then uh praying and interceding. So, could intercession stop God or or change God's mind from turning them over?
SPEAKER_02:Well, listen, let me put it to you. Let me let me put it let me address the first thing you said first. Because in Sodom and Gomorrah, that's not what happened. There were none. Remember, uh Abraham started out with uh, you know, I forget what it was, 50 or whatever, 100 or whatever it was, and it went all the way down, and there was nothing. Remember, that's the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. There were none. There were none.
SPEAKER_06:So why did Lot, why was Lot um, why did Lot was able to leave Lot and his family if there was none?
SPEAKER_02:Lot and his family were were able to leave, and Lot and his family were were among, were among Abraham's family for sure. But remember, when he when he finished, when he finished, because here's the thing. Lot belonged to God. He belonged to God. And Lot was part of Abraham's covenanted family. Because remember, Abraham was interceding to keep Sodom and Gomorrah from being destroyed. From being destroyed. But we know they were destroyed. We know they were destroyed.
SPEAKER_06:They were okay.
SPEAKER_02:You see, you see what I mean? So remember, Abraham was trying to stop the whole thing. It wasn't just trying, if he was just, if Abraham was just standing in the gap just for Lot, and that was it, that conversation would not have even been had. But but what here's what you have here. You have a picture of God's mercy and his grace in this. Okay. You see what I mean? You you you are you we are witnessing what we are witnessing today. You and I, all of us here, we deserve to have befall upon us the same thing that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. And this world will have to deal with that and reckon with that. But there are going to be those of us who are in Christ, who have been given the gift of faith, like Abraham did, who are going to not have to undergo what um condemnation and fiery indignation that is coming upon this world when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. But anyway, back to what you were saying. Lot was preserved for Abraham's sake, and he was a person who was a recipient of God's mercy and his grace because of Abraham. However, Abraham was trying to preserve the life of all of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham, God told Abraham, listen, you find enough of these people, I'll spare it. 50, I'll spare it. 40, I'll spare it. 30, and there was none. But what we have to look at is that whenever God is bringing judgment, there is always a remnant that he has preserved for himself. And you gotta think about it. Even Lot's wife, when she was allowed that opportunity to escape, her heart was still back there. She turned around, she looked, and she was also judged right along with him. And so uh Lot, it is safe to say, that he could not have been amongst those whom God has reprobated. And we know that because God talks about Lot being righteous. And you look at what Lot did, there was really no evidence of Lot doing anything deserving, well, none of us do. But I mean, we don't have this, the these, we don't have this grand story about Lot like we do about Noah and David and Samson and some of these other saints. But anyway, it's a long way to go around saying it. But the issue is Lot received grace. He received God's mercy. That's what he got. And I believe for the most part, uh I would be I would be safe to make the argument that it was on the behalf of Abraham. But he did, God did destroy all of them. He destroyed them all, except for Lot. And and that was because God showed Lot mercy, and I believe it was for Abraham's sake. That makes sense forever?
SPEAKER_06:It makes sense. Okay, so uh could someone intercede to change God's mind from his decision of turning someone over to a reprobated mind?
SPEAKER_02:I think that he I think that God does that every day, every time somebody is saved. And and they do so because they trust in Christ, right?
SPEAKER_06:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02:So the intercession of Christ is what ends up saving us from God's wrath. That's what ends up saving us.
SPEAKER_06:Right, correct. I agree.
SPEAKER_02:So when we talk about reprobation, we talk, we're talking about a time where a person has gone so far in their life, um, and like I said, we don't know. We don't know. And when we look at when we look at these verses that talk about leaving them alone, it doesn't specify the grounds, doesn't specify the time, it doesn't say when they turn 50 or when they turn 60 or when they mocked me for this number of times. We don't know what that is. Only God knows the heart. But I will say this, I will say this. Reprobation is not that God actually, it's not that God actually has anything to do other than to leave people in the condition that he's under no obligation to remove them from. So put it this way, when it comes to salvation, this is what this is what is a problem that is problematic. Man has come to a place, especially in America. America, American Christianity believes that God has obligated himself to save everyone if they want it. God is under no obligation to save any. And if you understand what grace is, you would understand what I'm saying. Not you, sister, but I'm just saying in general. So grace means that the already condemned are going to be alleviated by the atonement of Christ from the penalty due to their sin. They will no longer be responsible for that debt because Christ paid the debt. It is not that the wrath that is deserved that is deserved goes away. It is simply deflected and put on Christ on the behalf of those who are saved. So reprobation is simply the act of God not intervening and letting you go your own path. And so those who end up in hell, it is, you know, like some people here's what people say: going to hell is because you rejected Christ. That's not why you go to hell. No one is going to be casting the lake of fire because they rejected Christ. Why do you think, and I'm asking you, sister forever, why do you think men are turned into the lake of fire at the end? Why? What is the reason?
SPEAKER_06:I was under the impression that it was because they did not have the Christ. And yeah, help me for me understand.
SPEAKER_02:That's fair. Sister Mariah, why do why are why are sinners turned into hell?
SPEAKER_01:You said, why are sinners?
SPEAKER_02:What's the reason that sinners are cast into the lake of fire? Why are why are what's the reason why sinners are cast into hell?
SPEAKER_03:For unbelief.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that's part of it. That's a big part of it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, because because God had left them in their condition, right? Ultimately in their state of unbelief.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Uh Lisa, what do you think?
SPEAKER_05:It's because of their sin. The wages of sin is death. That's the reason Yes. If you haven't accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and He atoned for you, then you stand before God on your own without Him.
SPEAKER_02:The reason right. Yeah. The reason why men and women are cast into the lake of fire when it's all said and done is because it's not because, like my brother Cause it, it's because they deny the free gift. No, it's not. It's because of their sin. Not accepting Christ just means not embracing the way out of being condemned. But remember what Jesus said in John 3 16 and 18. He says, those who do not believe, they are condemned already.
SPEAKER_01:Condemned already.
SPEAKER_02:And this is what this is what modern Christianity is not recognizing. You have to understand, all of creation since the fall, all of it, was turned into a vast cemetery full of dead people.
SPEAKER_01:Dead people walking. Dead souls. Christ came here walking through this vast cemetery, and he looks over here and he says, Mariah, come forth. He told Lazarus. Forever blessed, come forth.
SPEAKER_02:Meg, come forth. Here I am, Lord. There you go. Brother Jeff and Joni, come forth. He doesn't do that for everybody. We're out. He doesn't do so for everyone. And here's the crazy thing: he's under no obligation to do so. And yet the command to obey is still binding. You have a responsibility to believe if you would have eternal life. You have a choice to make in your life that you will either stand before God draped in the robe of righteousness only given to you by Christ by trusting in him and his advocacy and his intercession, his mediatorial standing over you. Or you stand before God mediating, advocating, and interceding for yourself. That is what those are the options. But what needs to be understood is that men are already dead in sin and trespasses, and as a result, already condemned. And I gotta tell you, I know these are not the most comfortable teachings to embrace, especially when we consider our loved ones. But this is why there is such an urgency on the believer to communicate the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the lost, seeking to win souls so they do not have to go to that awful place and face God without Christ. Because that is what hell is facing God without Christ. That's what it is. There is a reason why he's a consuming fire. There is a reason why Moses had to stand before God on Mount Moriah in front of a bush that was burning.
SPEAKER_01:And notice that bush wasn't being consumed, and yet it was on fire. You had the first picture of what hell is in that bush when God gave the law.
SPEAKER_02:A bush that was on fire that was not being consumed. That is going to be those who reject God because of the law of God, where they stood before Him to give an account for their pretended obedience to God's law. But that burning bush was the first emblematic perspective or view into what hell is going to be like on a much grander scale. That bush that wasn't burning. And that's what happens when you have to deal with the law rather than dealing with grace. I pray to God, and I mean this sincerely, that this is something that I am communicating and articulating in a way that everyone listening understands.
SPEAKER_01:Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:They are going to know that their sin debt has not been paid in full by Christ. And when God says to them, Depart from me into everlasting fire, those people are going to be in complete agreement with God when he says to go. See, that's the part. I don't think there aren't going to be angels dragging people, kicking and screaming into hell. No. When he says, Depart from me, yeah, you're right. You're a holy God. I have a lifetime full of sin that I that was never paid for. I racked up a lifetime of sin. I didn't allow Christ to forgive me of it. Right. And so now I've got me and my life of sin, I've got to spend eternity from God. I understand. That's what I have to do because I can't stay here. Right. Allow me to be in the presence of God, in a holy, eternal God. So we will go willingly, not kicking and screaming that hey, there was a miscarriage of justice in the accounting department of how many sins I committed. Right. You see, so it it it's again, we we we've got to remember, Jonathan, and then I'll stop. We're dealing with an infinite, eternal God that knows everything there is worth knowing about us, about everything there is. There is no way he can be outsmarted. There is no way we can speak around his sin. They are of a reprobate mind. They do not know him.
SPEAKER_02:And you know what? And and I'll tell you, brother, because you're dead on. And here's the thing here's here's the sad part. This is how this is how gross, and this is how sinful sin is. When those who rejected the only provision that God made for your justification and your peace and your reconciliation with Him, all those who refuse that, when they go to face the Lord Jesus Christ at the divine tribunal, the bar of God's sovereign eternal justice, when they go there, they are not gonna be any more repentant than they are while they're here on earth. But you're right, they're gonna know they're guilty. But remember, we read in the Bible where it talks about how these people are gonna say, Lord, didn't I do this in your name? See, they they are still, even on the brink of being dragged into hell, they are still in the presence of the Lord exhibiting rebellion.
SPEAKER_00:Talking about works instead of grace. That's right. Do we not spend how many weeks in Galatians trying to get that church straightened out because they added something to God's plan of salvation? Works doesn't come into it.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:By grace and grace alone, that we are saved, all of us, every last one of us.
SPEAKER_02:That's it. Grace alone. That's right. My sister Barbara in the comments, she says they would rather go to hell than to bow down to the Lord. That is true.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Whatever you, however you are for the Lord Jesus Christ when you die, that's what you will be after you die. Conscious and aware. I don't care what Kirk Cameron says. And so these people, you know, I there these people don't understand the severity of sin. They don't get it. They don't understand how much of an offense sin is to the thrice holy God. They don't get it. He says that his eyes uh his eyes are of are so of the type of purity that he cannot even look on sin. Brother Jeff, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Jonathan, I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I do want to say this about Kirk Cameron. He has had plenty of time now to make a statement, whether on television, online, on uh X, uh whatever, wherever platform he wants to use, and to say, no, that's not what I meant. I still embrace the biblical concept of eternal hell. He's been quieter than a church mouse. I think he's not voting to change. He's voting to change.
SPEAKER_02:No, he's not. He's not. He's not. He's bent. And see, this is and see, and and what we need to understand is that when we when we are warned about these things in the word of God, we need to recognize it. There's a reason why the Lord gave us his word so that we can recognize these things. You don't turn from something like that. You don't spend 30, 40 years as a Christian believing that and then going, you know what? Um, it sure would be great. It sure would be a great gospel message to tell people that, you know what, if you die outside of Christ, you're not going to undergo eternal punishment. He's talking about a gospel for the wicked.
SPEAKER_00:Well, what's next then, Jonathan? Does he start telling people they can be saved by works? Because that's what would come next. Well, you know, if he continues in that direction, that's what he would be preaching. You can be saved by works and not just by grace.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I I I I think that he I think that he, me personally, and I hope God will, you know, will do what he does. I don't know. But what I do know, you can't be a Christian for that long and then come up with some grand revelation that you drop on a lot of people who have been listening to you for years. But see, I know his doctrine has been faulty ever since he started that whole thing. Ever since he was doing that left behind series, ever since. When I tell people that dispensationalism how wicked it is, they think I'm going too far. But I'm telling you, I'm not. You can never go too far. The slightest deviation from God's truth is severe and serious. God does not give latitude to what he has called righteousness, to what he has called truth.
SPEAKER_00:We can't go far enough, Jonathan, in teaching and preaching that truth. No, it is the only entrance into heaven. That's right. Anything else is, I'm going to use the word blasphemy because that's what it is. That's what exactly what it is.
SPEAKER_02:That's blasphemy. Somebody told me, well, you can't call that heretical. It's heresy. That's what that is. It's heresy. And I will make the strongest arguments, as all of you should be able to make the strongest arguments against that nonsense and those lies, because of what it takes away from the sacrifice of Christ, from the value of his sacrifice. So now let me ask you this question.
SPEAKER_01:Joe in verse 16. We read it. He says that he wants God to let him alone. Two questions. Did God answer that request?
SPEAKER_02:And if he did, whatever answer you give, what are the ramifications of what you think God did or did not do? I hope that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:You got settled somewhere? Alright, she might still be tied up somewhere. Uh let me start with uh Sister May. Job asked to be let alone by God.
SPEAKER_02:Did God leave him alone or not? And whatever the answer is, what is the outcome?
SPEAKER_07:I say no. I say he didn't answer his request because that would be number one, if he left him alone, then he would have definitely regretted that. God did not leave him alone. The hedge was never removed over his soul. And I think that because he was in deep lament, um, he did not, because while we were yet sinners, Christ came and died for us. This was a state that he came into knowing that we were sinners, and it was by his grace that he did not answer his request.
SPEAKER_02:Amen, sisters. Forever blessed. What do you think? Did God leave Job alone? Did he give Job that request? Did he fulfill that request?
SPEAKER_01:Yay or nay? What say you? Forever blessed. You there? All right, Mariah, what about you?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I would say no, and I say that because I I believe that had he left him alone, he would have cursed God to his face.
SPEAKER_02:All right, sister Lisa. I like that feeling.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that was good. Um I I would say no as well. And I was I was thinking along the lines of Sister Meg. I mean, it's it's by his grace um that he's he's he's hanging in there. I mean, he's being upheld whether he realizes it or not. And um again, uh what Mariah said, oof, yeah. I hadn't thought of that, so but that is awesome. Yes, he may have.
SPEAKER_02:Brother Jeff, encourage your servant. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:God most succinctly said, no, I am not going to answer that. And here's why. He knew that later on he was going to restore Job, and he was going to correct Job for his improper, incorrect thinking. But Job yet hasn't yet reached that point. It's still early in what's happening with him. And his worthless friends are still trying to get him to uh confess some sin he never committed. Right. Okay, what I'm I'm really anxious to get to chapter eight when Bildad takes his shot. We'll get there, brother. I've got yeah, I got something to say for Bildad. But anyway, no, God said, No, I'm not gonna take your life. Because uh if if he had stepped taken everything away from Job, he would have died because he told the devil, look, you can do anything you want to him, but you don't touch his life. Amen. If God backs off from that, do you think the devil wouldn't have moved in and killed him immediately?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:He'd have been dead before he hit the ground.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Um, uh um Sister Mariah, Cause didn't hear what you say. Say again what your answer was. Because I gotta tell you, that's the best answer I could ever I could have ever heard. And I certainly didn't come up with that answer myself. Say what you said again.
SPEAKER_04:I said, no, I don't believe that God did, because had he left him alone, he would have surely cursed God to his face.
SPEAKER_02:That is deep right there. See, that's the kind of stuff I like. That's because and uh I love it because it's true, and I love it because my sister is connecting it, her conclusion, with the word of God itself, and more importantly, in the context of what has been already expressed. Meg, go ahead.
SPEAKER_07:So think about this too. The word of God says that he puts his word higher than himself. So when he is giving the word to Satan that you cannot touch his life, if he would have touched his life, then it would have looked like it was God and not him.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_07:So he he will always put his God can never go against his own word, he won't. And so if he when he if if that would have happened, number one, he says he will protect his name, and he will protect who he is, and that's why we know that when he makes covenants, they are true, because he will not he will not go against his own word ever.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. Amen. Listen, I I I I got my nugget for tonight. That that is a solid, succinct, articulate response. Had God left him alone, he certainly would have cursed God to his face. That is that is it. Now here's the crazy thing, and here's here's the big lesson. One of the big lessons that we get from Job is that not only did God not honor that, and not only did God not leave him alone, look at how God was paying attention to Job. What there is nothing that is what is happening to Job that makes him feel like God is doing something good for him. Remember, he's not getting any comfort at all. And yet, God is not um, he does not leave off from Job. He does not leave him alone, he stays with him. But what God is doing, he is behind the scenes in of you know uh inflicting these things on Job, allowing these things to happen. And that is how he is involving himself with Job by the afflictions. Go ahead, Meg.
SPEAKER_07:And when and when and also like when we think about the Lord Jesus Christ, where he leaves the 99 for the one, one when we when we speak about the sheep, oftentimes the shepherd will break the leg of the sheep and bring the sheep back to the fold. And so the process that Job that God is doing with Job is the same thing that the Lord Jesus Christ does with us. If our leg is broken, the shepherd tends to the to the sheep, rebuilds the sheep, lifts the sheep back up, and heals the sheep, and that's what Job is doing to that's what God is doing to Job. He is breaking his leg, but he is literally restoring him, just like the Lord Jesus Christ does to us when he comes to him.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I mean, it it's I mean, it it's it doesn't fit the paradigm of the depraved mind, the sinful man. That the blessings of God take the form of affliction that doesn't sit well with man. This is why people are always asking us when we talk about God's sovereignty and how God's in control and how he does all things according to the counsel of his own will. This is why they say, How can you believe a God that does this and that destroys these people and that causes disease and that he does this and that and the other? They don't understand what we understand. Sister Lisa, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, I hope I can say this to where it makes sense. Um, but what Mariah just said with that is is exactly why we can rest and be sure that no matter what it is we go through, you know, sometimes in our own mind we doubt. Oh, I hope I never say anything against the Lord. But it is through the Lord Himself that keeps us from doing that. Right. See, I mean, like Mariah said, if the Lord had removed his hand, he surely would have cursed God. Just but God will never remove his hand from his children. Never. So we are secure, we are secure in that we will never, never turn against, you know, or curse our Lord. We are it it's his it's his strength that upholds us. Right. We don't have to worry about our own. It's beautiful. Oh my goodness, it's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. I mean, that that's that's that's that's that's exact that's exactly right. I mean, you could take that statement. That little that one little statement, if God were to leave Job alone, he would certainly curse God to his face. That could be the one side of the coin that describes this whole message, this whole book. That's a heavy statement. When you think about it, it is a very, very heavy statement because that that deals with the whole with the crux of the matter around this debate between God and Satan. Because Job or the object the objective of Satan was for Job to curse God to his face. But the but the statement that Mariah made, that she said it it is establishing firmly what we already know, which is that this hedge, as Meg said, was always around Job's soul. So God can't leave him, he can't leave him alone. He can't leave his child alone. So when you look at the extremity of Job's suffering and affliction, when you look at how bad it is, and and we we are seeing how bad it is, we know the narrative, and we know that God did not leave him, he never left him. So even though Job felt no comfort whatsoever, he was not left without the comforter. He wasn't, he was always there, always there, and he shows Job later. Go ahead, Meg.
SPEAKER_07:So, as you guys know, like my sister is going through cancer right now, and she's 28 years old. And I was talking to her on the phone one day. I'm like, Carly, why don't you why don't you tell anybody? Why don't you tell anybody what's going on? And she's uh