The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: (Job 8:11-22) - Upholding the Perfect Man (Part 1 of 4)
A friend who “tells it like it is” can leave deeper bruises than the storm itself. We dive into Job 8 and meet Bildad, the comforter who wields doctrine like a club—equating suffering with secret sin and appealing to tradition as if age could replace discernment. As we read his words, we ask harder questions about truth, love, and how theology should land on a broken heart.
We share why the prosperity-innocence formula fails the test of Job’s life and the witness of Scripture. Our panel explores the tension between honoring the wisdom of the past and recognizing when it’s misapplied in the present. Along the way, we confront a widespread belief about election: did God choose us because He foresaw our choice, or do we choose Christ because He first chose and drew us by grace? That distinction changes how we interpret suffering and how we treat those who are grieving. If grace is first, then accusation has to yield to patience, presence, and prayer.
We also unpack Bildad’s marshland metaphors—reeds withering without water—and why they don’t prove Job’s guilt. Christ, the living water, sustains believers even when outward life dries up. Rather than reading providence like a scoreboard, we learn to hold fast to the character of God and the integrity He Himself grants His people. The conversation stays practical: how to avoid weaponizing doctrine, how to use tradition wisely, and how to care for friends without turning into a judge.
If you’re weary of neat answers to messy pain, press play. Then share your take: where have you seen “truth” used without love, and what restored your hope? Subscribe for more thoughtful, Scripture-rich conversations, and leave a review to help others find the show.
BE PROVOKED AND BE PERSUADED!
Christians. How are you doing this Thursday night? I hope and trust that all is well. And tonight we're going to continue in our exposition on the book of Job. And I um I have to say I like the kind of direction that we're going with it and the types of discussions that are coming out from it. And I hope that those who are participating would also find much that they can gather from it that will be useful to their souls. Tonight we're continuing the response of Job's miserable comforter, Bill Dad. And we started last night on his response to Job. And we pointed out certain things with regard to his personal character that I pointed out in a bio form so that we can all begin to see the signs of those things that emanate from such a character. And one of the things that we pointed out with Job, I mean with Bill Dad, is that he is a very um cold man. He's a very cold person. He has zero compassion for Job. And he went in hard on Job, and he brought up a lot of and said a lot of things that would be beyond what we call hurtful. For instance, in verse 4, when he talks about and treats of how Job's children are only dead because of transgression in their life. And had they not had these transgressions, they might be alive. This is a cruel thing to say. But he's one of these kind of guys that believes that what he is saying he must say. That he must say. And, you know, and how things were in the past. And he tries to, he tries to make an assessment of the current context of things based on what the context may have been in antiquity. In other words, he doesn't know how to apply the things that he's learned and make them relevant for the time that he's living in. And we're going to see more of this. But he's a and he's a very um doctrinal guy. He's the kind of guy that I pointed out last night where he's the kind of person who is always throwing up doctrine and using the word of God to be a sort of billy club or bat that he uses against people, including his friends, of which Job is considered to be one of his friends. But now we see that his actions don't seem to indicate that he's that much of a friend, or he's just one of these kind of friends that he just says whatever comes to his mind first, and there's no there's no warmth in it. There's no compassion in what he says. He just, in his mind, he's just telling it like it is. And that telling the truth we talked about last night, for some people, just telling the truth, regardless of how and when and where and in what setting. Their idea is that love is expressed purely by stating what they consider to be true, whether or not it is relevant to the situation, or whether or not the way it is being presented is going to be hurtful or damaging to another person's soul. That's how he, this is how Bill that is. He's a very cold man. And he equates all suffering to immorality. He assumes that there's a moral um depletion, as it were, on the part of Job that warranted his sudden plight of misfortune. And the res and so his idea is like Job, quit crying, quit complaining. You're in a situation because of unrepentant sin. You have defied God, you don't want to admit it. In his own words, he says that God is going to remain sleeping until you get your act together. He's accusing Job of not being spiritual, of not being spiritual, being unholy, being unrighteous. And that when he gets his act together, God will wake up and come to his aid. And he believes that God only helps the innocent. And one of the things that we point out is that God has an interest in sinners. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save the innocent, he came to save the guilty. This is what this unbelieving Christian world doesn't understand. It is not because of your purity or your piety or your own personal righteousness, which you might categorize as simply, I haven't hurt anybody, so I deserve salvation. One of the worst things that I have ever that I ever hear Christians talk about when it comes to their salvation, when they and when they refuse to deny what many of us will say is true, that God has chosen us to be in Him before the foundation of the world. There are certain Christians who, even though they don't like that doctrine, they know they can't deny it. So what they do is they modify what they can't deny. And they change things. And what I mean in this particular case is that they will say, Well, I can't deny that God chose his elect people from before the foundation of the world. But what they do is they offer up a rationale and a justification as to why he chooses. These people know why God chooses those who he has chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. And what do they say? They say that God, because he has foreknowledge and foresight, he looks into the future like a fortune teller. He looks into the future, witnesses that you are going to make a good choice for Christ and salvation. And it is then, after upon, after or upon looking into the future and seeing your good deed, and it is then that he chooses and makes them his elect. When the Bible teaches something very different, it teaches the very opposite, which is that the reason, while anyone will choose Christ, the only reason you will ever choose Christ is because God chose you to be in him before the foundation of the world. And not only that, he provided all of the means for you to come to him in faith. Look at it this way. If God looks down the corridors of time, having made no choice in who he is going to save, having made no election, if he looks down the corridors of time and makes his decision to choose you, then you are saying that God saved you because of what you did. And therefore he was obligated to choose you to salvation. It is one or the other, saints. It is either God chose you, and that is the that is the foundation for you coming to Christ, or you chose him, and that warranted him choosing you. That is the reason and the ground for why he chose you to come to faith. And so there are many people who don't like to deal with the true doctrines of the Bible. They don't like them. They say that this is not how God is, this is not how the God of the Bible is, this is not what he does. So many people think that they know something about God that no one else knows. But what God has done, he has wrapped up in the person of his son all that we need to know for our salvation. And when we look to Christ, and if you look to him sincerely and deeply enough, things should make sense for the right-minded Christian. Job is a man who is being accused by his friends of having some secret set-aside sin that he's unwilling to be repentant for and of, and that that is the reason why he is suffering. And this is why he could make the comment, Bildad, that is, that the reason, Job, you're in this situation is because your hands aren't clean. You sinned against God, and God only deals with the innocent. No, brethren. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to earth to save anyone who was innocent. He came to bring salvation to the guilty in order that he on their behalf might make reconciliation between them and the Father. So we left off in Job chapter 8, verse 7. I'm gonna read those verses and then I'm gonna start in the new verse, which is verse 8. But just to kind of get people reminded of where we left off so that we can continue the flow, it says in Job 8, verse 5, if you would seek unto God, now this is Bildad speaking to Job. He says, If you would seek God unto if you would seek God unto God betimes, and make your supplication to the Almighty, if you were pure and upright, surely he would awake for thee and make the habitation of your righteousness prosperous. Though thy beginning was small, yet your latter end should be greatly, should greatly increase. And we talked about this last night and where we kind of closed up things with this idea that Bildad makes this statement to Job Though your beginning was small, yet thy latter end should greatly increase. And it appears that he is speaking to Job in a way that is condescending and that puts Job in reminder or in a state of re being reminded of his tragedy. And so, but what we glean from this last night is that whatever his mindset was in making the statement to his friend, it is clear that what he said is true. And it also seems clear that he has no idea that what he is making is basically a prophetic utterance as it pertains to Job. Because we know that later on he is going to have his prosperity back multiplied. So what buildat means for Job's hurt, God has him saying exactly what his goal is in Job, which is to make his latter end more fulfilling than what it was before. So much so that he would greatly increase above above and beyond what he had before. So now I get to the next verses where we start tonight, verse eight. I'll read the first three verses and then I'll go to the panel for opening remarks. Job verse chapter eight, verse eight. Bildad says to Job, Inquire, I pray thee. Notice, inquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare yourself to the search of their fathers. For we are but of yesterday and know nothing, because our days upon the earth are a shadow. Shall not they teach thee and tell thee, in other words, out of their heart. So remember, I told you how Bildad says a lot of true things. The problem is he misapplies them to Job. And so, even in these verses here, as I said to you earlier, he is always appealing to tradition, to the old ways and the old folks of doing things. He he's he's telling Job that he somehow lost sight of what history ought to have taught him. And so he tells them, For inquire, I ask of you, inquire of the former age, prepare yourself to the search of the fathers. Go back, go back into antiquity, go back into tradition, and start all over again. Get reacquainted with the truths of this common understanding that we have become accustomed to. And he tells him to move kind of fast about this because we are but of yesterday and we know nothing, but our days are upon the earth are as a shadow. So he's telling him to hurry up about it. And then he says, and they will teach you, and they will tell you. In other words, out of their heart. And that last one was a question. So now I'm gonna start with the panel and get your opening remarks. Sister Lisa, good evening. Hey, hey, good evening.
SPEAKER_06:So my my first thoughts are that Bill Dad is telling him to seek the wisdom of the past. Like, what's that saying that history repeats itself?
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_06:And he's he's trying to um get Job to you know to learn the letter to seek the lessons of the past um since he's but a babe and and our life is just a vapor on the earth. So um again, it's just very condescending. Um, but that's the way I'm taking it. Um history repeats, and I think that's still through true today. You know, if we don't learn lessons, we're we're what's the word? We're not cursed to repeat them, but we bound to repeat them again. Bound, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, bound to repeat it again. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, and that's exactly that's that's that's more or less exactly what he's saying. Sister Candy, what do you think?
SPEAKER_04:I see. I say God creates new. So do away with the old that's passed away. He makes things new, you become new. So what he's doing in Joe, he's going to restore him in newness. Because the old is done and gone. And that's what I see. It's like Bill Dad's lost that mindset of what God's words actually say. He's taking it into the carnal mind and saying, This is what you gotta do because this is what the world and the man is seeing you need to do. This is what we're saying you need to do, not what God's word has shown us to do. It's right. You can't go back. You want to become a pillar of salt? Go back then. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:Right yeah, but I think I think that I think that what what he like, I don't necessarily think that he is, I don't think that the problem so much here is that there's anything wrong with looking at antiquity. I mean, look, we study the Bible.
SPEAKER_04:The words he says with traditions. You know what I'm saying? The traditional part, because that traditional part is you gotta see God, not man. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04:So that's where I'm coming from with it.
SPEAKER_03:All right, I got it. Perfect. All right, uh, brother Pat, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think that um what Job has is he's got a buffet of friends, and they have different perspectives that maybe represent the collective perspectives of the wisdom of men.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and here we've got we've got Bilodad, um the pragmatist, and I and I just want to point out that Biladad really thinks he knows, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_03:He does.
SPEAKER_01:He he really thinks he has answers, and little does he know that the reasons things can happen, and and especially in Job's life, are beyond anything that they could ever comprehend. Beyond anything that they could ever comprehend.
SPEAKER_05:You done, brother?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there was some sort of feedback or something or something, but yeah, that that's all I had to say. I'm looking forward to the rest of the study.
SPEAKER_03:All right, brother. Look forward to it. Brother Jeff, encourage you, serving. Opening remarks.
SPEAKER_02:Well, good evening, Jonathan, and good evening, panel. Boy, we got another good-looking group in here tonight, Jonathan, for sure. So we're going to have an excellent discussion. Jonathan, I continue to see that Job's friends lack compassion and empathy for Job. All they want to do is judge him. Reading between the lines of what Bildad is saying here in uh chapter eight, I hear him saying, hey, Job, come on, man. Get this thing out here. Confess this. I want to go home. I need to go home to feed my cows or take care of my oxen or something like that. You know, I want to get out of here. And that's kind of what I read a little bit that Bildad is implying to Job. And yet, like you said, his thinking is right, but it applies zero to this situation that Job is in. And that's my thought.
SPEAKER_03:Yep, absolutely. Well, you know, what what so in these verses here, you you you have you have a you have quite a few things, a few things. Like he does appeal, like we said earlier, to the ancients, you know, the you know, antiquity. And we talked about this last night because uh and I was saying how I see so many people in in in, you know, when I used to debate uh these kind of things before, and now you hear people arguing about them fighting about these things now, and you when people have a tendency to lose uh an argument or not be able to make a good case for why they hold something true, what they often do is they will appear, appeal, for instance, to the church fathers. I see this so much, I see this a lot on TikTok. You know, when people can't explain something that they are adamant is true, they they don't tell you or explain or reason out the veracity of it. But what they do is they tell you that the church fathers or these church fathers believed it. As if we're supposed to say, okay, great, since they said it, or this one person said it, Ireneus or or Augustine or whoever, then it must be true. You know, and this is where a lot of these people get the universalism, that the fact that everybody is going to be saved. This comes out of the Alexandrian school of thought, of Greek, Greek thought. And this is where the you know, where Greek philosophy was, and that was a seat of it. So you had these two guys, Clement and Origen, and these guys believe that whole idea. And so you got guys that'll be saying, Well, you know, the church fathers believe this, and they'll be talking about either Clement or Origin, and then they will make you believe that it's like all the church fathers throughout history, this is what they all embrace, when in fact it's not true. And my point is like in the case of Bildad, he's trying to appeal to the wisdom of the ancients in antiquity, and he's using that to validate what he is saying about Job. Now, what he's saying about Job is this he's simply saying this. He's going, listen, your sinful works got you into this situation. And if you go back and look at the the history of earlier generations of folks who taught things, them having a much longer line of observation over these things, you can learn something. And and he and he's so condescending because he's assuming that Job doesn't know what he knows. He's assuming that Job doesn't know what he knows. You know, and this is what this is what always happens. And you'll know this because I can't tell you how how often this happens to me, even on this platform. For example, I will make some posts or about some subject or whatever it may be, and somebody will inevitably write in the comments, you need to go and read your Bible. And I'm like, like here's two things about that. One, they assume you don't read your Bible. Number two, that it doesn't even it doesn't even factor to them that you have read it, and perhaps you might have misunderstood, which is a good assumption to have if you think someone is wrong. And then number three, directing me to go read the Bible instead of explaining to me where my error is, that would be helpful and edifying. But this isn't what people do, and this is why I'd make a point that when somebody makes a comment to me that I feel needs to be addressed, I will tell them that they're wrong. But I will tell them that a my my repost is coming, and I'm gonna tell you why. I'm gonna tell you why. You have so many people, all they do, they just tell you you're wrong. That's it. That's that's it right there. That's their ministry telling people they're wrong. There are people out there all over this platform. They're they're constantly telling people how bad the church is. How was that edifying? And who does that build up? The church in the Bible. He doesn't tell me what's wrong or why I'm wrong, but he tells me to go Google, go Google it to find out how to be made set straight. As if the Google is as if Google is led by the Holy Spirit. Bildad is this kind of guy. Go go back in antiquity, go look at the creeds. I appeal to the church fathers. You should go to them and go study them again. He's not telling Job anything beneficial or edifying. He's just telling him to go back and do his homework. He's telling Job, you know, you need to go Google the church fathers. That's what he's telling. Get your worldview straight. In verse 11, Bildad says, Can the rush grow up without the mire? Can the flag grow up without water? While it is yet in its greenness and not cut down, it withers before any other herb. And notice what he says next in verse 13. So are the paths of all that forget God, and the hypocrites hope shall perish. Now, verse 11. Can the rush grow up without the mire? Basically, the rush is like papyrus that grows up out of you know swamps. Swamps. You know, you see that that that kind of it's like a type of a type of a grass, a thick grass that comes out of the swamps. And then he says, can the flag, which is a a bull rush or a a marshy type grass as well. And he says that can it grow up without the water? And the answer to both is no, they don't. And then he said, then Bill Dad says, While it is yet in its greenness and not cut down, it will wither before any other herd, assuming that there's no mire, assuming that there's no water. Assuming that there's no water. And I think it's interesting, and this is and this is where I'm going to go around and ask people to you know give some ins insight into what they think. I think it's interesting, he talks about um a healthy papyrus growing up out of the mire, the swamp. And then he talks about the flag or the bull rush or marshy grass. It need it needs water for it to grow. And he says, While it is green, if it doesn't have these things, it will wither before any other herb. And then he says, so are the paths of all those who forget God, and the hypocrites hope will perish. So let me start by asking you, Mariah, what do you think? What do you think he's saying here? What do you think he's saying here?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's kind of like, well, what's coming to my mind is like those who um what does the scripture say? They love me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. It's like, well, you you do all this, you say all this, and then in your time of need, you forget God. And so, you know, those who forget God or um don't go to God for their needs in in any type of situation, then they shall perish because they don't depend on God in all situations. They just depend on God when things are good or going good for them.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. I I I um well, let me go around some more. Linda, what do you think, sister? What do you think he's talking about?
SPEAKER_07:I'm sorry, I missed out on the uh initial um conversation. I came in late. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_03:All right, no problem. I'll come we'll come back around. Sister Candy, what do you think? Can the can ask your question again, so I'll make sure I'm Can the rush grow up in the mire? Can the flag or the marshy grass grow up without water? While it is green and not cut down, it withers before any other herb. So are the paths of all those that forget God, and the hypocrites' hope shall perish. What can you extract out of these verses, if anything at all? It doesn't have to be, it can it can just be whatever you when you read it. What comes to your mind and when you read these verses? And I'm trying to I'm trying to get some understanding. I'm trying to get you to to when you read these verses, what do you think?
SPEAKER_04:What do I think based off of what I'm hearing? Is it I'm it took me to 2 Corinthians 5 1. So it's about um that if our earthly house is tent is destroyed, having a building from God, our house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. And we grown desiring to be clothed, but we we live for the things not seen, not for the things that seen.
SPEAKER_03:All right, okay, all right, brother Pat, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01:He's seeing Job withering away, and I think he's comparing them to those weeds. Like if you were doing the right thing, you would be prospering like the good plant should. But because you're like these marshweeds, you know, that they're gonna wither away. And so he's he's piling on, I think.
SPEAKER_03:He is, he very much is. Brother Jeff, encouraging servant, your thoughts.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Jonathan, it has occurred to me that Bill Dad is trying to ask Joe. I may very well be wrong here, but it's just my thought. He's asking him, can a man prosper without the righteousness of God in his life? The righteousness of God being the water that he so that these plants, the reeds and the papyrus need. Can they uh thrive without it? No. Can you surprise you prosper, Job, without the righteousness of God working fully in your life? Look at where you are now. Where's the righteousness of God? That's what I hear Bildad saying.
SPEAKER_03:I like it. Sister Lisa, what do you think?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I was gonna kind of say pretty much what Jeffrey and Pat said. Um, when I see it, he's speaking of these things do not thrive without water. The first thing that comes to my mind is Christ is the living water. He is our living water. And in saying such things to Joe, Bildad is implying that he's not got the relationship that he should have with God. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in the state that he's in, the condition that he's in.
SPEAKER_03:Amen. So, so what what what you what you guys just said, this is true, this is exactly right. This is exactly right. He he's he he's basically saying, he's basically telling him, like, at least you brought up the living water part. And and and and what Jeff, so what Jeff and Pat said, when you put all these things together, it gives you the exact picture of what's been talked about. Remember, he's telling Job that it is that that somehow the the life support system for the believing heart is gone. And what and what and what he's saying is that you know is that you and your hypocrisy is being revealed and and is evidenced by your suffering, by what's happened to you. Your tragedies, Joe, are the result of secret wickedness that's going on with you. And God, because your sin is so great, God can't even supply you with the nutrition that these plant that you being a plant need. Remember, he said in verse, he said in verse um uh six, if you were pure, Job, and if you were upright, surely God would awake for you to make your habitation, um, to make the habitation of your righteousness prosperous. So he's telling them he doesn't have that. He's telling him that you're not you're not um um perfect and upright. And so, because of it, it is evidence that because you are not, God has gone to sleep and is not supplying you with those things which should provide for your growth. He is questioning something about Job, which no Christian likes to be questioned about. What do you think it is? What's the one thing no Christian wants to be questioned about from another Christian?
SPEAKER_02:Are you sure in your salvation? Amen.
SPEAKER_03:Amen. You're sure about your salvation. Do you really have salvation? Because if because he's looking at this thing where, like, you you, if if this is happening to you, Job, then there's something wrong. And this and Brother John Langlow, he said, he says faith, but it's worse than that. It's worse than that. He he's he's he's looking at Joe, he's treating Job as if he either one of two situations, either he has turned his back on God, or he was never affiliated with him in the first place. It's most likely one of the two. But what is certain is that he is questioning his salvation, or at the very least, he is questioning his relationship to God. Look what he says in verse 13. So are the paths, just like these rushes or the or the papyrus and the and the bull rushes or the marshy grads, just like