The Bible Provocateur
The Bible Provocateur
LIVE DISCUSSION: (Job 8:11-22) - Upholding the Perfect Man (Part 2 of 4)
Pain often draws a crowd of advisers—and not all of them bring comfort. We walk through Job 8 and the cutting claims of Bildad, who reads Job’s losses as proof of a godless heart. From that scene we confront a stubborn modern reflex: turning prosperity into a scorecard for righteousness while treating suffering as evidence of hidden sin. Instead, we argue for a bigger frame—God’s sovereignty over both blessing and hardship—and show how that truth stabilizes hope when life is stripped bare.
We dig into the language of hope as assurance, not wishful thinking, and unpack Bildad’s metaphor of the spider’s web: intricate, impressive, yet fragile and deceptive. That image becomes a mirror for our own false securities—wealth, reputation, perfect families, and religious performance—that look strong until a single gust tears them down. Along the way, we consider how Jesus himself appeared withered and stricken before men yet was never cut off, and how that lens redefines what “favor” looks like when the crowd misunderstands faithfulness.
This is also a conversation about pastoral wisdom. Job’s friends morph from comforters to critics, adding weight to a soul already bruised. We offer a different path: presence over presumption, Scripture applied with patience, questions rather than conclusions, and a firm refusal to weaponize providence. If God truly reigns over our trials, then despair is not our only option; we can grieve honestly and trust deeply, anchored in Christ, our blessed hope. If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who needs gentler counsel, and leave a review telling us how you’ve been comforted—or challenged—to comfort others well.
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These things die without water or the or the or the swamp. He says in verse 13, so are the paths of all that forget God. He's accusing Job of forgetting God. There is nothing more um hurtful to a true believer, particularly when they are going through a period of suffering and affliction. When somebody comes and tells you that not only is this happening because of sin, but they say things in modern times like this. You need to get your heart right with God. How many times have we heard somebody say that to us, or maybe you said it to somebody else, or maybe you heard heard someone else say it to somebody else? They look at your outward circumstances, they look at what they see, they look at your misfortune and tell you you need to get your your heart right with God. This is happening because your heart's not right with God. But if you got the if you got the first house and the second house and the third house, and you got the Bentley in the garage, you got the job, you just got a recent pay raise, you got you got a healthy set of twins that were born to you, and you all you wanted was two kids in the first place. You got the dog, the picket fence, you got all the things you want, you got friends around you. This is viewed by most folks, Christian people included. This is viewed as God's favor. And I'm not saying that it is not the favor of God and the blessings of God showered upon you when you have these things. But the mistake that so many Christians make is in not making the same assumption about the afflictions that come your way. We need to understand that the afflictions that come our way, that they come from God. If they didn't, if they came from any other source but God, we would have the grounds for being excused and having no justifiable grounds for having any real hope if God has no control over the affliction that we have. This is the foundational principle to the Christian believing and understanding that God is sovereign in all things. God is sovereign in all things, and that is the reason why we can have hope. Now, he says here in verse 13, uh buildad, and the hypocrite's hope shall perish. And he is saying that if you continue in whatever it is you're doing, and we don't know what it is, the evidence that we do have that there is sin is the fact that you got boils, lost your family, your wife cursed you, you lost your home, you lost your animals, you lost your health, you know, all these things. This is all we need to do know to come to the conclusion that you have forgotten God, you are a hypocrite, and the hope of you as a hypocrite will perish. But those who understand, who truly understand who the who God really is, they understand that He is in charge of everything. And that means that if we have our trust in Him, like Job said, shall we not take the good along with the evil?
SPEAKER_00:I want to bring up Jesus. So who else appeared withered before men? The Lord Jesus Christ. He appeared withered. He was beaten and and with a cat of nine tails and suffered. But he wasn't.
SPEAKER_05:The cat of nine tails?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The cat of the cat of what was he? He was hit with the cat of nine tails. The Lord Jesus Christ. What is it called?
SPEAKER_05:We'll come back to that another time later. But go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but what I'm saying is, is he was whipped and beaten.
SPEAKER_05:I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00:And he looked withered, but he was and he was not cut down. Just like Job was. I think so many times when we see people, again, reflecting on our own selves and our own situation, we see people that may be suffering on the outside, and just like like Bill Dad, we're misinterpreting, you know, the testing of the Lord, thinking that it's something that they've done when it isn't, right? Because the righteous still suffer. And if we go back to Job chapter 1, verse 8, the Lord said, What have you considered my servant? So while we're reading this, I think we have to still consider that Job is the servant of the Lord being tested, which I don't think that Bildad is seeing the innocence in suffering.
SPEAKER_05:Good point. Very good point. Uh, brother Jeff, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Jonathan, I know you're not crazy about my translation that I study out of, but let me read to you verse 13, okay? It says, such is the destiny of all who forget God. Now listen to this. So perishes the hope of the godless. Right. He is calling Job godless.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my goodness. Yeah, he he he he he's saying, like when yours says the end, that's what we're talking about, the hope. Because our hope is the end. It's not the hope, like, it's not the hope like um I like I wish this happens. It is talking about when we talk about hope, it is it is talking about an actual expectation. Christ is our hope. And he Christ is called our blessed hope. You know, but yeah, like Mariah says, it's assurance. Hope here in this context is talking about the, you know, the the about what is certain for us. Now, in this case, here, like you said, Brother Jeff, is that the hypocrites' hope or their end shall perish. And this is why I said he is basically in modern speech today, he's telling him uh you need to rethink whether or not you even have salvation. You need to rethink that. You need to, we need to, we, you need to really take a look at this. And he's telling them to go back to bases, go back to antiquity. So that's what he's doing. And here's the problem. Now, now here's so there are so much suffering that Job is going through. Most of us as Christians, when we read, we get this cursory view of the extent and the extremity of his suffering. And we know that he lost his homes and his his kids and his and his wife turned on him and whatever, and he has the boils, but this and then his friends, and we call them the miserable comforters, then it's the things they say to him. And now think about this. You've lost everything in pretty much all but a moment. And now, here comes another dagger by Bill Dad. You you may not even be a Christian. What you're going through, what you're going through is telling me that you have sin in your life, and because you won't tell us what it is, that means you're unrepentant. And that would mean that because you're unrepentant, even God has turned his back on you and is taking a nap. In other words, God is sleeping on you. He's got no, he's not willing to wake up to come to your aid until you deal with your sin. But think about this. You have all this going on. Your friends were supposed to come and provide comfort, and now you have one of your one of your chief buddies telling you you may not even be a Christian. You may not even be a believer. He's accusing him of forgetting God. Joe, who at the end of chapter 7 was pleading with God to give him some respite, some peace. Even if it was between swallows of spittle. He was asking and crying out to God. And this guy is saying, You're for you forgot God, and and you're a hypocrite, and your end will be the way of perishing. How can you tell? And he starts off by telling them your kids died because of transgression. Now he's saying you don't even have salvation. You're a hypocrite. He is getting, Job is getting every single blow that I think the devil is been is can can can handle, can dish out. Sister Mariah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Um, that he he even questioned his children's salvation. Um, you know, that if they he starts off by saying if they have sinned and then goes on to say then God has cast them away for their transgression. Now Pete, you know, waits no millisecond to go ahead and then accuse Job of even doing the same thing that he said his children has done, right? If he even has salvation, he I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if he threw the wife in there at some point, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, imagine, especially for those of us, you know, men, right? Because we it hits us kind of hard. It's like your kids, you're a believer, you're at church, you're doing your deacon duties, whatever it is you got going, you're a faithful person, but you got a couple of unruly kids that are out there in the street doing what they do, getting in trouble, whatever. And then people start telling you that there's something wrong with you. You can't manage your household. Now, Joe was offering sacrifices for his kids daily. We were told that. And yet, you have this guy saying, nope, your kids, you know, they died because of their transgression. But it's it's just the the timing and the hardness, the callousness with which he conveys this to Job. I mean, it doesn't, you there's no way to soft pedal this in his speech when you look at what he's going through. And to be that crude and harsh is it just lacks all compassion. It's completely bereft of any compassion. And it's hard to do. And now they're saying, okay, well, now it looks to me, Job, that you have forgotten God, you're a hypocrite, and you're gonna perish for it. And these are hard words to take. So I agree with you, sister. You're dead dead on. Brother Pat, and then Jeffrey.
SPEAKER_02:It occurs to me that even when um unbelievers go through hard times in their life, what is it that they'll always say? They'll say, Well, these are tough times, but I've got at least I've got my family and my friends. These are people who are supposed to help you get through the hard times, right? And instead, they are they are actually part of the trial, they're part of the storm, and Job's left naked with nothing but faith.
SPEAKER_05:You know, and and and this is and this is and this is what should be our daily practice, you know. I know that it is it is something that I'm conscious about, and I I hope that I can persuade a lot of you to be conscious about it, about how we respond to other believers, especially, especially those who are part of our household, household of faith, that is. Even when someone we believe doesn't understand something that we believe we understand to be true and want them and want to convince them, there are ways to deal with our brothers and sisters in Christ that we could do better in how we communicate. And as I have come to conclude in so many different situations, half of it is just letting people say things and and and leading them down a path where they can logically come to a conclusion that is biblical, assuming you're correct. And this is just one thing I'm talking about. But like Brother Pat said, and I like this because I think because what I got out of what he just said, which is a good lesson to get from it, is that is that when someone is struggling so much, we should be as reluctant as possible to become part of the torment. We should be what we should do whatever we can to not be part of the burden that they are already carrying. And try to find some way to lead them back to the waters that we read here in these verses, so that they can find refreshment. He's telling Job, well, listen, Job, can uh you know, can a rush grow up without mire? Can the bull rush bull rush grow without water? But what is he doing to provide any refreshment to Job? He believes he has the gift of rebuking. So many Christians that are like that. They believe that's their gift. And I'm not even being hyperbolic. I have heard people say that they believe they have the gift of rebuking. What a gift that everybody would love to have. And so, but that's how some people act. My job is to correct everybody on everything. That's my job. And to tear them down when they don't get it. Not with an argument, just being boisterous and overbearing and a burden. We have to try not to add to a person, a person's suffering when they're suffering or when they're afflicted, not to add to it. Let's be part of the solution. Let's be let's be let's bring some measure of refreshment to that soul who's struggling with whatever it is they're going through. And that can be hard to do. It can be very hard to do. But Bildad paints this very vivid picture. Calling Job a hypocrite is what he's doing. Calling him the the papyrus, calling him the the the marshy grass that um is not um drinking from the water of life freely. He's forgotten God. He's a hypocrite. And the only hope that he can expect to be manifest is his is to perish. He accuses Job of the of of withering because all the water is being withdrawn. Sister Candy, go ahead.
SPEAKER_06:I was gonna say that's just like what the Sadducees, Pharisees, and Scribes did to Jesus, isn't it? Yep. So this we're staying the foreshadow of that too.
SPEAKER_05:Yep. You get you're gonna see a lot of that. You know, and and you know, and he's and he and look, Bill Dad, he he makes this argument that when wicked people are prosperous, they don't have any, they don't have any firm root. So when you look at these, when you look at these, these, this, this, this, this papyrus, and you look at the marsh, you know, they come, they when they don't have the water and they don't have the swamp, then, you know, they're they're very likely to wither and die. And so he is calling Job one of these, who, somebody who has prospered at one point, and now his swamp has dried up. The water is gone. And all that he has is gone. And he's equating all of that, all of that, that blessing of that water. He, Bildad, is equating it with Job's stuff. He's equating Job's prosperity with the stuff. It never occurs to him that it was that it was God giving him these things for whatever reason God had. But he's assuming that he's this godless person who was prosperous, but had no water, and therefore now is being plucked up because of his wicked ways. And so when God withdraws his favor, and when God takes away all those blessings that Joe has, and his life falls apart all at once, he's trying to tell Joe that your that your your your utter ruin is the result, the sign, the evidence of your unrighteous ways, your sinful deeds. But who else made the same conclusion? Satan did. Bildad is accusing Job to his face of the very same thing Satan accused Job of to God's face. Remember. Satan told Job or told God that the reason why Job will never curse you is because of all the stuff you gave him. That's why he'll never curse you, but let me lay my hands on him and he'll curse you to your face. Bildad is saying the same thing. The only reason, the only reason that, you know, or or that the only reason that you thrived was when you had stuff. But because but because of your wickedness, and because God took it away, or the reason why God took it away is because of your sin. Brother Jeff, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, Jonathan. Uh, undoubtedly, Bildad overheard every word of the conversation that Eliphaz had uh with Job earlier, and Job didn't come clean in his confessions in Bildad's mind. So what he does, he ratchets up a lot his accusations against Job to the point, like you've just pointed out, Job, are you really sure you're even a man of God? There is no righteousness in you. Look at all these terrible things that have happened to you. What's going on, Job? Come clean. And I mean, it's almost to the point where the accusations from Job's friends, Jonathan, are worse than what he has lost. Right. I'm not saying they're a good thing. Don't get me wrong. But these are supposed to be his supporters, his friends, his encouragers, the men in his life who provoke and persuade him. Okay. They're not doing it.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_04:They're kicking him in the teeth while he's down.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_04:That's what the thing about this that has really opened my eyes about the story of Job is not just what the devil did, but what his his so-called friends did to him when they came to console him.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Right. Absolutely. Good point there. So in that last verse, he says, So are all the paths of those that forget God, and hypocrites' hope shall perish. Now we come to verse 14, 14 and 15. Whose hope, meaning those who forget God and perish, whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider's web. He shall lean upon his house, but it shall not stand. He shall hold it fast, but it shall not endure.
SPEAKER_07:He this brings me to mind a house built on sand. That's what he's accusing him. He's accusing him of not having his house built, his confidence. Um the house built on stand is stuck in my mind that when trials come, it washes away. And this is what Bill Dad is saying to him. You know, he leans against his house, but it does not stand.
SPEAKER_05:It it he's he's just saying, you have your well, well, well, look, let me let me go back. I'm gonna stick with you on this one. I'm gonna pick on you a little bit right now.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, great.
SPEAKER_05:So so yeah. So verse 14. He says, talking about those who forget God, the hypocrites. He says, their hope shall be cut off. You know, that's that's basically tantamount to saying, like, your your salvation, your lively, you know, your life in God, whatever you, however you want to look at it. Um, and then he says, whose trust, so we're gonna deal with trust, shall be as a spider's web. So I want you to just I want you to just because what I'm what I'm trying to do is get I want I want everybody to think. Don't look at notes or anything. Think for yourself. Just think.
SPEAKER_07:So his confidence his he's talking about his trust. His trust in the Lord. There's he's saying that those who are the hipp hypocrites their confidence isn't in the Lord.
SPEAKER_05:But when he says his trust shall be a spider's web, what what is what what is the spider's web? What does the spider's web say about his trust?
SPEAKER_07:I'm trying to think, a spider's web, it is it's a trap. So it's a trap for the so his trust is a spider's web. It's what he he's accusing Job that the trust he has is not.
SPEAKER_05:Oh what's the it's keep going? What is he saying about his trust? He's using the metaphor of the spider's web to to describe his trust. So what are the attributes of a spider's web that he is equating with his trust?
SPEAKER_07:The spider's web it is it it's it's a trap. It it catches it catches the spider's prey. Those who are caught in a web are dead. They are it's death to them. Okay, it's true.
SPEAKER_05:You you you said um you said um I forg I'm I forgot the word you said. You said um uh a trap. Uh and I I think that's a good I think that's a good word that we can that we can stick to uh trap. Um brother Pat, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Well, spiders' webs don't endure. They don't endure. You want to elaborate a little bit more on that? Well, uh a spider uh builds something up for a purpose uh uh and they have to do it again every day because uh they put it up and it's destroyed before the next day, and the next the next night it just doesn't endure.
SPEAKER_05:All right, brother Trevor, I know you're getting ready to go, but I want to give you one shot before you leave, brother. Thought you would get out of there, didn't you? Brother Trevor, are you there?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm here. Uh so who's trusted is a spiders web is basically um hoping to catch anything that comes comes by, you know. Um but um I'm I'm trying to wrap my head on this one because Bildad is playing the role of Satan. Satan's using Bildad to uh make Job believe that he's lost the inheritance of the Lord because he lost his riches. Basically, he has nothing to show for, and he's basically trying to convince Job that everything that God had done for him, he has taken it away. And uh, you know, now he's at this point where he's trying to, you know, throw in the kill, you know, basically with um his mind, you know, um if he can convince Job that he's lost, that that he doesn't have God on his side anymore, then he might uh just give up and and die. You know, just you know, um so when he's speaking these things, it's basically like going for the kill shot, you know. Um the spider's web though, um I'm I'm trying to I think Lisa pretty much said it. Um you know, it's a spider's web is basically, you know, to catch the spider's prey.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but but remember what he what he's saying is uh trust is uh yeah all right uh Lisa, you you you brought your hand up again. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_07:So so here here I I don't know if I can say this right. So is Bill Dad saying to Job that your trust is like a spider's web? Is he saying to him, it your trust is it's a trap. You must have had faith in all those things that you had, and not true faith in the Lord, and that is why you're going through this stuff.
SPEAKER_05:Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. Because what what what does and there's and there's some more I want to add to this, but here's what I but but you nail one of the things that I have on my list, and that and that is he trusted so when people have their homes and their jobs and their cars and their money and everything is what what does that provide for us? What's the number one thing that provides for us? Security, security, security, and so and and so job's security, Bildad is telling him that this stuff that you had, it was a it provided you a false sense of security, like brother old school says. Big one. That's a big one. This stuff doesn't it doesn't it doesn't give you any real security. You can think that you can save away your 401k, put your money into your what do they call that new stuff now? The the the the Bitcoin. The Bitcoin and all that kind of stuff. People think they the world never stops believing that their security is in this world. It is not. And this is the this is the big thing. Um, Sister May, and then um, and then Mariah.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm sitting here thinking, and so like when you look, when you look at a spider's web, if you see one, right? It looks elaborate and nice. It's so like well put together and it looks strong, but it's strong enough for the spider. But we as human beings, we can take that spider web and just knock it right down.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, now let me stop you right there for a minute because now you're going down the right, now you're going down the right path. This isn't about it, because remember, he's using the spider, because it matters for the human. It matters to the human because what is he saying? He's saying that the he's saying that the trust of the hypocrite is like a spider's web. So go ahead. I just want to uh because I like what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So to us when we are when we look at a spider web, it looks elaborate and it's beautifully woven, but all we have to do is take our hand and swipe it away. Yep. And it's gone, right? So to us, a spider web looks like a false hope, but to the spider, it looks secure. So in tying that together, it's like um, oh man, I kind of get I'm just I'm going, I'm just thinking. So it looks strong, but when you lean upon it or when you swipe it away, it's gone.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but it doesn't look it doesn't look strong to us.
SPEAKER_00:No, not at all. It's nothing. We know that it's not. Right. We can't. But to the but to the spider, it does. Yeah, but the issue is not the spider. No, but to us, it it's nothing.
SPEAKER_05:Right. The issue that we're talking about is Job's trust, the trust of the hypocrite.
SPEAKER_00:So I wouldn't trust no spider web being a human being.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Well, what well uh let me move, let me let me Mariah, what do you think? Let me ask you what do you think? What do you think about this?
SPEAKER_01:So I wanted to say he what he's saying um to me is that the hope of the godless, it disintegrates. And basically their trust or their confidence hangs on by a thread. And and the spider web, it is not connected to God, it's connected to this world, you know, things uh upon this world. So he's basically saying, you know, you trust in the things of this world, or uh, or you know, the the unbeliever rather um has its connection and bounds to their trust in this world and not the and not threaded to God, right? It's not connected there, so it's hanging on by a thread.
SPEAKER_05:I like that. I like that. Meg, you were gonna say something.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:All right, let's have it, let's hear it. Tell us something.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So, Bill, what build dad, I think what the underlying issue is, is that at this time, Job's hope looks fragile. Like where he's at right now, it looks like it's fragile. Yet, going back to Job 1.8, God declares him upright. So he appears cut off and fragile, but he's not.
SPEAKER_05:Fragile is one of the words that Lefty used in the comments. Fragile was one of the words that I had listed as well.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, it's I think from a human perspective, a spider's web is very fragile.
SPEAKER_05:It's extremely fragile. And and and the thing, and so what what it is is what you have is because um it not only is it not only is it fragile, it it is it's thin and it's fragile, but it ha it from a spider's perspective, for example, it is uh deceptive. It's deceptive. It looks secure, but it's not. It looks secure, but it's not. And this is and this is and this is what Bill Dad is saying. And again, he's talking about real things, really. You know, because it's really a profound statement to make. But he is dealing with this whole idea of false hope. And and I like the word Lisa used, uh trap, because it it when you when you have this sense of security that is not real, that's what the trap is. Believing that it is secure when it is not. And so you get caught up in that trap. And so I think somebody used the very words caught up. But that's what that is. My father used to use that word a lot. You know, you know, when you go on into things that you shouldn't get into, and you eventually you get caught up in it. But it's deceptive, it's fragile, it's thin, it's a trap. And I think Pat was who he who said that it doesn't, it's not enduring. It doesn't. Spider webs don't last very long. You know, it it takes nothing to t to rip down a a uh uh a spider's web. But what he's but what Bildad is telling Job is this that his trust