LIVE DISCUSSION: "Man Drinks Iniquity Like Water" (Job 15:14-16), Part 3/4

If even heaven isn’t clean enough for God, where does that leave the rest of us—and what does that mean for raising our kids? We open with the ordinary moments that expose the human heart: a toddler’s swat, a child’s stubborn no, the instinct to get our way. Then we hold those moments up to the blazing light of Job’s questions and the doctrine of total depravity. Not to shame parents or scare kids, but to see clearly why early formation matters and why the antidote can’t be found in willpower or better techniques.

Together we trace a thread from the nursery to the throne room. Scripture says God puts no trust in saints and that even the heavens are not clean in his sight. That doesn’t indict holy angels as sinners; it tells us all creaturely purity is derivative. If God won’t stake salvation on the best of his creatures, he certainly won’t rest it on our fragile choices. We weigh the competing claims of Calvinism and Arminianism in plain language, asking whether the decisive cause of salvation rests in God’s grace or in human decision. The logic of Job pushes us toward a humbling and hopeful conclusion: God acts because we cannot.

From there, we bring the theology home. What does “you will be saved, you and your household” mean for parents trying to set the tone of their homes? We talk headship without harshness, boundaries without legalism, and practices that give kids covenantal access to the gospel—daily Scripture, honest repentance, patient correction, and a house shaped by prayer. Parents are stewards, not saviors. The good news is that the God who doesn’t trust angels to keep themselves will not trust salvation to us either; he keeps those he saves. That reality quiets panic, fuels courage, and turns everyday moments into training in grace.

If this conversation sharpened your vision or encouraged your resolve, share it with a friend, hit follow, and leave a quick review. What’s one truth you want to plant in your home this week?

Transcript

Starting Early With Theology At Home

SPEAKER_00 0:00

On this together. But here's what here's here's the important here's the significance of understanding what we're talking about tonight. When you really understand this, that window of opportunity for dealing with your kids, you realize needs to go away and needs to be dealt with from the cradle. That we are sinners. And rightly so. When she got us when we were young, we got older and didn't realize why we always obeyed her, even as adults. We know now, but when you're young, it's it's it's automatic because you don't remember what happened when you were three, four, five, and you know, at those young ages. And it usually starts right around two. But the reality is when you believe and understand these doctrines and you believe that you are that you really want to be a faithful parent to God and to your child, you get on this as early as possible. As early as possible. When a kid, you know, when a kid flicks their hand like they might want to slap a parent or whatever, just like just playing, you nip that in the bud right away. None of that, none of that. Oh, that was cute. Oh, no, no, no. See, that's what people do. Everything is cute until it's not. And then you wonder why you're visiting them in prison. You know, and so it's important to make people make our children understand that we are depraved sinners before a holy God. We start teaching that and embridding and in and embedding that into their minds at the youngest possible age. I'm talking even when they're babies. If you know, you're reading with them, if you're reading your Bible with your with your with your child there, whatever, everybody knows what they need to do. But yeah, brother Rod, I know what you mean. I know, I know what you mean. It's a hard pill to swallow.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, man, amen. I appreciate that. I definitely get it. I'm more in understanding, because you know, yeah, I mean, I just I just she hasn't done too much, but I'm like, okay, she's gonna do it when she gets older, but I'm I'm preparing her just regardless.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

You know, but here's but here's but here's what I want to here's what I'm gonna bring home, brother Rod. Here's what I want to bring home. It's not about what she's done, it's about what she is.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Understand, I understand, understand, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

You know, it's about what she is about what she is. We are little sin manufacturers. That's our nature. That's our nature, you know, brother Pat.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Um, can I be heard? If my connection's not working, I'll I'll I'll drop and try it another day.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

But is it working? I will tell you if it's not clear, brother.

The Problem Is Us, Not Systems

SPEAKER_02 3:00

All right, yeah. All right, thank you. You you know something um uh uh to to build upon that. Um children they just haven't learned how how to do get what they want yet, but they'll grow up and learn. They learn more ways to accomplish, they don't have the ability when they're young, but that desire, that underlining desire that we want what we want when we want it, it's inside there, bro. It's inside, you know what I mean? It's just in there from the minute we're born because we are fallen in sin. And I'll tell you something to think about is humans have tried every philosophy you can think of under the sun to make this broken world work. We've had thousands of years to get it together. We've tried every religion, every philosophy you can think of. Nothing works. Why hasn't anything fixed uh the problem? Because the problem is us. That's the problem. We are falling in sin, we are depraved, and so there is no solution other than being changed, which we don't have the power to do on our own. That's a real problem. And uh, and so I think that that's what Jonathan is saying is that's what this gospel's about to do what we can't do.

Job’s Questions And Total Depravity

Calvinism, Arminianism, And Salvation

God Puts No Trust In Saints

Heavens Not Clean And What That Means

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Amen, brother. Amen. So so the real question here that has been asked by Eliphaz to Joe, of all people, the question is isn't the questions that he that he asked, the two questions, is not they're not meant to invite a debate. These are not meant to invite they're not asking these questions as if this is something that should that can be debated. Total depravity of man is not a debate. You know, so even when it comes to dealing with other Christians, when we start talking about these things, I I don't have any time for it. Because if you don't understand that rudimentary, that rudimentary um doctrine, that biblical thing, if you don't know it by experience, it's very difficult difficult to convince a person who's a Christian, by the way. You know, claims to be a Christian. But these questions, they're not this is not about something to be debated, but this these questions are intended to silence presumption, silencing presumptuous attitude. It's not a philosophic, it's not up for a philosophical debate about man's depravity. People can get mad and call me a Calvinist all day long. It ain't gonna change the fact that Calvin was right about man's total depravity. He was right about it, just as he was right about unconditional election, the aton, the extent of the atonement, the effect, the effectual call, and the perseverance of the saint. Has nothing to do with Calvin himself, even though he did believe those things. These are what the Bible actually teach. My brother Aaron Patrick, he says, no, you that's fine. But this is what I mean, Christians. You you know, let that's you gotta let people go do their go do their own way. Their salvation belongs to them, they made it happen. So more power to you, brother. If you made your salvation happen, more power to you. But it is plain in these verses that Job understood something different. David, Abraham understood something different. Peter, Paul, James, they all even James, they understood something different. We are depraved sinners. Didn't matter who said it, the word of God teaches it and it says it there. Simple as that. If man is unclean at his source, which is what it said here in this verse 14, if man is unclean at his very core, at the source, he cannot make himself clean by his own strength. Why anybody would argue that, I will never understand it. Even if you are not a Christian and you read this, you should be able to understand from a literary standpoint that this is what the Bible is absolutely teaching. Verse 15. Behold, he puts no trust, thinking about God, he puts no trust in his saints. Yes, the heavens are not clean in his sight. This is another, this this is this is just another profound verse. And my brother Aaron Patrick, if you're listening, you need to listen to this. Because one day you're gonna realize, brother, you're wrong. Listen, it says here that God puts no trust in his saints. This is not just about fallen angels, this is about the righteous ones. Some people go back and forth between saints and men, um, but it's more likely a combination of the two, those who are with God in glory at the moment. But it doesn't exclude the the upright, righteous angels. God doesn't put his trust in them. Now, here's the thing you have a lot of Christians who tell you when they try to explain a predestination or an election, for example, excuse me, they will say that election is true, but it is based on God seeing that you will make a right choice in a decision for Christ, and then as a result of seeing in the future that that is what's going to happen, then God chooses you. Well, that would mean that God has to put his trust in man, and that's what has to happen. And I'm gonna let my brother Patrick, you know, have fun writing his little his comments. I love you, brother. I really do. You're just wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. But you can stay and write all the notes you want so that people can hear and see how silly it is. We're actually reading the verses right now. Behold, he God puts no trust in saints. If God, listen, listen, listen, the Christians, listen to me. Everybody who's listening, if God wants all men to be saved the way these Armenian people think, if God wants all men to be saved, but then puts them in a situation where he knows that most of them won't choose him, and therefore he won't choose them because they don't choose him, what you're saying is that God put these people in a position to fail when the only way that he can save them is to intervene, and so listen, we have a whole lot of biblical support for this, and brother Aaron, you are an Arminian. The problem is you don't understand your own belief systematically, and this is what we're talking about. I'm not condemning you, you're wrong, and we can talk about it any day. We've talked about these things before. You, everyone's theology, let me say this one clear. If you are a Protestant, if you're in fact, if you're any Christian, claim to be in from any side of the fence as a Christian, your theology when it comes to salvation or soteriology, it is either Calvinistic or it is Armenian. And there is no way to blend the two. Blending the two means you have no idea whether you what what how to string together a complete, rational, logical thought as to how the word of God is put together. When it comes to the five points of Arminius or the five points of Calvinism, whichever side you hold, if one of those is different, then the whole system falls. The whole system falls, and so behold, he puts no trust in his saints, which is what he would have to do if it's up to you to be saved. Yes, even the heavens are not clean in his sight. Listen, if the heavens aren't clean in his sight, if you push no trust in his saints, his created celestial beings at the highest level, how much less, how much less, how much more unlikely is what he's pointing out, is it that man can prove himself worthy of being saved? It's impossible. If a man imagines that something within him, we commend him to God, then the text sweeps away hope by magnifying the purity of the judge. See, the thing is, God is the only one who can make an unclean or bring something clean out of the unclean. Only he can do that. I can't do that, you can't do that, and my friend Aaron Patrick can't do that. Only God can do it. Only God can do that. God is so holy that even those creatures who excel in purity beyond all earthly comparison, his saints, whether understood as angels or men or the most exalted of created beings, whatever that may be, they are not objects of his trust as independent or self-sustaining righteousness. They can obtain righteousness of their own, and they certainly cannot sustain it. That is an absolute impossibility. Absolute impossibility. Your thoughts now.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

This is when we're getting into depravity versus um 14 was great. I'm just still I'm just listening and kind of gathering info, but I'm right here with you.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

All right, brother John Langlord, anything you want to say?

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Well, I I have um two things. Hello, everyone. I don't get to say hello very often. Good evening, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Good evening.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Um I wrote a poem about a tulip after I think I understand the tulip. Um I'd like to read that, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

How long is it, brother?

SPEAKER_03 14:24

It's short.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Alright, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Okay. While walking through the garden, I found the gorgeous flower. They said it's called a tulip and told me of its power. Created by the one true God before the world was made, a plan to deal with sinners will never make degrade. A sovereign God who chooses peculiar people for his own, the payment satisfied by Christ, the seeds of love were sown. Believing men came forward, receiving gifts of faith, eternal life provided through God's amazing grace. His loving son will keep those souls tightly in his hand, his spirit guiding as I yield, waiting for the great I am.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

That was great.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

That was pretty good, too.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

I uh wrote that on uh basically on the uh the March of last year.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Can you can read brother? Can you send that to me?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I would love to send it to you, sir.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Please do send it, brother.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah, well, I'll let Jonathan figure out how to get it to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

All right, yeah, send it to me. I'll I like that. That was that was that was very good. That was very good. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

All right. Um, so the other reason why I came up um was a talking about children and and teaching them, trying to raise them up in the Lord. This particular verse came to my mind, um, Acts 16, 31, and they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. That part that says, in thy house, has can you uh give me a brief clarification on that? What that means.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Where you at, John?

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Acts 1631.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Let me see. Let's get there. Acts 1631.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Somebody might have said to me one time something called uh like household salvation or something.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I don't remember exactly, but um yeah, so so it here's the thing, because a lot of people have in this in this in have taken a verse like this and made it a a um a covenantal arrangement, and it is, and it is, but it is not in the sense that if I become if I become a believer, that every single person in my family is going to be a believer, it doesn't mean that. That's I believe, yes, yeah, so it's not that. So what but what it is saying is that the the the terms of covenantal grace and having access to it has come to your house.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And that's the way to look at it. And so it doesn't, it it it by no stretch of the imagination, especially when you look at the totality of scripture, can you argue that if I'm a believer, then that automatically means all of my family and those who live in my house or my extended family, that they're all saved. Otherwise, you know, you know, that would go against much of what the scripture requires from us as individual believers. But it does it, but it does intimate this idea of those in your household having covenantal access because you are, because you came to believe, if that makes sense. Brother Pat, go ahead and add to that.

Poem On TULIP And Grace

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah, I just uh it's a great question. Um, and you have to understand that this modern idea that you can um be the head of a house and you could have one child who's an atheist, one child who's a Buddhist, they're all figuring out and they're all free to do whatever they want to do in life. That's a modern thing, and that's not the way that the ancient world uh viewed the world at all. There was a headship within within a household, and it's like that it's something like this house were a Christian house. And so we don't want to hear anything non-Christian from even the servants, you know what I mean? With from the children, this is the way that this house is is ran. Right.

“You And Your House” Explained

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, it just speaks so, like it's it's like even when you go back to uh Joshua 24, when he tells those unbelieving amongst them that refuse to put down their idols, he said, Well, okay, well, if you don't want to put down your idols, that's fine. Then you can choose if you don't want to serve God, then you go serve whichever one of those idols you want to. But as for me and my house, we will serve the God. Now, he he is Joshua is the head of his household. And he said, His household is going to be governed by principles established by the word of God and by the law of God. You know, you know what I mean? And so that means his family, those are in his household, they're going to be subject to that same governance. But still, every one of those he those individuals has an obligation to God on their own as an independent vessel that needs to submit to God in all humility and and and and um and reverence and due reverence to him.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah, well, well, we'll we'll we'll do our best to teach them, you know. But We can't we know at the end of the day Lord has to save them.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Right. Absolutely. He does, brother. That's exactly right. So yeah, that's that is a good question because that verse has been misleading. But I do believe there is a a this speaks of a covenantal advantage, basically. Thanks so much. That's how I would look at it, brother. That's how I look at it. And by the way, I'm gonna say it again. I love what you wrote. I really did. So don't forget to send it to me.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Yeah. I'm just so grateful that the Lord let me put that together. I really wanted to. I I wrote some other poems too, but another time. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

When you come back up, I'll give you another shot at doing it. You've proven yourself.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

All right.

Headship, Household Faith, And Responsibility

Why Boasting Fails Before A Holy God

Dead In Sin And The Myth Of Free Will

If Angels Aren’t Trusted, What About Us

SPEAKER_00 20:44

All right. So, you know, God even says here, uh, or Eliphaz actually says here that even the heavens aren't clean in the Lord's sight. And, you know, and this doesn't this doesn't imply that there's any fault or sin in the angels of the host of heaven. It doesn't imply that at all. But it shows that the the so what it does show, it's not saying that you know the angels, the holy angels are sinning against God and they can't be trusted or whatever. That's not what it's saying. Because the good angels are pure. All right. They they are righteous and holy and upright. They haven't fallen. They're not amongst that group that fell. But what it does indicate is that whatever purity they have is a derivative of the purity of infinite holiness. In other words, whatever purity they have, whatever purity we have as saints, it is purely derivative of the holiness and purity that comes from God. Even when we leave here and get our glorified bodies and we are holy and righteous and absolutely sinless and perfect, all that we will have will still be derivative of the Holy One who sacrificed his life for us. And that's what this, that's what this means. And it also means that these, these, even these, these, the angelic posts, even they are dependent and are upheld, just like the verse that Mariah read in Jude 24, that God himself keeps them, keeps them just the way he keeps us. And it was, and God had no obligation to keep any of them. So whatever the situation was that caused the fall of the one-third of the angels that fell, we it's clear that God was under no obligation to keep them from falling. Under no obligation. So whoever it is who is kept by him, he does so by his sovereign prerogative only. And for nothing in them, or nothing resulting from them, or nothing derivative of them, their salvation, their perseverance is a derivative of God himself. And that's what needs to be understood. Nothing in heaven, the symbols of brightness, order, and constancy in heaven, even these things are not clean in God's sight. Everything is derivative of him, and there's nothing outside of him that warrants the salvation or that warrants being made clean unless God so wills it by his own sovereign will for reasons we do not know. We just don't know. Why? I don't know why he chose me. And I know you you all feel the same. You don't know why he chose you from among all the people in the world, all the ages of people in the world, even above the angels that have fallen, why he gave us a place greater than the angelic host when we leave here. Why does he do this? Why are you mindful of us? I feel sorry for people who call themselves Christians and don't recognize the majesty of God's sovereign prerogative and how and why he directed it toward me and you. So the lesson is clear here. If created purity at its highest pitch cannot stand before God as self-justifying, how vain it is for a man to boast in his own righteousness, and men boast in their own righteousness daily. Daily. The more and more I listen to the bitterness of foolishness coming out of the mouth of those who call themselves believers, the less and less I'm inclined to even want to have the discussion. Even though I know there's gonna be times where I have to. And we have to be ready for that when the occasion uh seizes upon us. But generally speaking, I'm not going out of my way to look, to argue with those who profess to be believers, who don't understand the most rudimentary aspect that that that that is that is over mankind, which is that we are sinful by nature. And there is nothing in us that could ever desire or aspire after God. Nothing in us. Which implies that we were dead, because there is no raising unless we were dead in sin and trespasses. And the people that run around saying that nope, it's my will. I look at them, you know, these Christians, it's my will, and it's because of my my choice, and then you know, and I cooperated with God. To me, these guys are like spiritual zombies. Zombies. When you do when you watch these zombie, these zombie movies, what you know, what are they what are they? They're dead people running around wreaking havoc. That's what they are. Verse 16, the last verse in tonight's uh discussion. I love, love this verse. In other words, he's comparing the fact that God does not regard or put his faith in saints or in things that are in the heavens. He puts no trust in them. And then he says, if he doesn't put his trust in the saints in heaven, if he doesn't put his trust in the luminaries of the celestial heights, how much more abominable and filthy is man? Men, man who's not in heaven, not in the heavenly realms, not in the celestial society. How much more abominable and filthy is men? And then he says, Who drinks iniquity like water? So, having established God's holiness, the conclusion is heavy. The conclusion is crushing. It really is. He says, How much more? If the heavens fall short, how much more does man fall short? Who is not merely finite, but corrupt, and stand condemned. Now he's can he he's saying that if God God is saying, if I look at my angelic host, my righteous angelic hosts, even if I look at them in the heavens, beings that are above us, beings that have seen and have been a partaker in his glory, how much more abominable is made in the state that we're in. And so he goes on, and he said, and he's and you know, and he's he's pointing out that man's condition is so bad because he's already in this in this he's already in the place of being corrupt, he's already in the place of being condemned. So if he puts no faith in the angelic hosts who are righteous, let's say, if he puts no trust in them at that level, if man is already enveloped in corruption, standing in the position of condemnation, dead before God, how much less is there any reason or justification to put any trust in man? Now, here's what we need to understand God loves his people, but he is not going to leave it to them, he's not gonna leave it to them to come to him. And what he is saying is, I'm not going to trust you to come to me. This is what he's saying. I can't trust you to be reconciled to me. So I'm going to send my son. He is going to accomplish for you what you can't accomplish for you, because I want you here with me. God says, I don't trust man. I don't trust the angels. Their purity is derivative of me. You, man, you don't even have that purity. You don't even have it. You stand condemned. So I definitely can't trust, can't put my trust in abominable man, in filthy man. So where is this expectation that God is going to wait and hope that someone he wants to save is going to come to him when he says he doesn't even put his trust in the angels? Sister Lisa and then Meg.

God Acts Because We Cannot

SPEAKER_05 31:37

So I have I have a question. So this is Eliphaz, and he's speaking to Job. Basically, you know, what he what he's speaking of, we're all aware, but since he's speaking to Job in this way, and the last he's is is he is he basically calling Job an abomination because he believes that Job is in sin and and job is is holding to his innocence. And and it seems like Elizabeth is saying, you know, no one is innocent, and he he wants him to confess something. And so that's what I'm I'm just wondering. Is he basically just telling, basically condemning Job using using the like you said, the truth of God's word or the truth of what we know about God to condemn this man in their mind in his mind?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Here's what he's doing. I'm gonna see if I can put this in the simplest way possible, and I think you'll get it. Yes, please. Yes, please. What he is doing is accusing Job of being self-righteous in his own eyes. He's accusing Job of self-righteousness. And so he and so he uses truth to try to try to solidify that position. And so he's and he and he's trying to be in a way, he's a little bit more um direct in the sense of using proper doctrine in most cases. But what he's doing is this he's telling Job, you are righteous in your own eyes. Because remember, Job has acknowledged no sin. They accused him of being sinful. Job doesn't know what what they're talking about. He's even he even asked them and God to reveal it to him. So but they think he's harboring a truth about himself that that he refuses to disclose, and they and they're telling him, you're just righteous in your own eyes. You don't think you, you know, you think you're holier than thou, you have no sin.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Okay. Okay, gotcha. Thank you.

Is Eliphaz Condemning Job

SPEAKER_00 33:59

You know what I mean? So he's so he's he's so he's going. So basically what he's saying, like even in this verse, behold, God puts no trust in his saints, even the heavens that are clean in his sights. And Job, you think he trusts you? You think that you are clean in his sight? You look at verse 14. Job, what what what is man that he should be clean? But why are you acting as though you are? None of us are, but you think you are.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

You see what I mean? This is what he's getting. He's telling Job, why are you being so self-righteous? You know, but the thing about it is, these guys are being very hypocritical. Because Job has done nothing but acknowledge these things. And see, and here's the other thing if they believe what they're saying, they would have a very different approach toward Job. So, so for example, if