LIVE DISCUSSION: "The Oneness/Modalism Heresy" Part 2/4

Start with a hard question: when Jesus prays, who is He talking to? We take that question straight to Scripture and uncover a clear pattern across the birth of Christ, His baptism, the transfiguration, Gethsemane, and His ongoing intercession. The threads converge on one reality: the Bible presents one God in three distinct persons, and that clarity is not a technicality—it safeguards the meaning of prayer, obedience, the cross, and salvation itself.

We walk through the relational language of the New Testament—Father sending the Son, the Son obeying and saying not my will, but yours, and the Spirit descending and regenerating—and explain why these are not theatrical roles but real personal distinctions within the unity of God. That frame unlocks the power of mediation. A mediator stands between parties. First Timothy 2:5 calls Jesus the man Christ Jesus, mediator between God and men, while Hebrews and 1 John describe His intercession and advocacy with the Father. These terms lose force if the Son is merely the Father in disguise. They gain depth when the Son, truly God and truly man, presents His finished work to the Father on our behalf.

We also map the triune pattern of salvation: the Father elects, the Son redeems, the Spirit regenerates and sanctifies. This is the living choreography behind every conversion, a single divine will enacted inseparably by three persons, each acting according to personal properties. Even the Old Testament prepares us for this unity-in-distinction: the Shema’s confession of one Lord, the Elohim language of Genesis, and the Angel of the Lord and Name theology hint at plurality-in-unity fulfilled in Christ and the Spirit. Far from puzzle-box religion, this is the Bible’s straightforward witness that preserves the gospel’s center.

If this conversation helps you see Scripture’s coherence more clearly, share it with a friend, subscribe for future deep dives, and leave a review telling us the passage that most clarified the Trinity for you. Your reflections shape where we go next.

Transcript

Setting The Scriptural Groundwork

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Um yeah, so even when, like if we go to Jesus's birth, right, and we look at that verse, and it says, it says, and the spirit, uh what does it say? It says, and the Holy Spirit shall overshadow you, right? And the power of the most high, right, shall come unto you, and then we have Jesus being put in the womb. So all of these things at very important parts, even in the Mount of Transfiguration, but then when we get to these places, we have eyewitnesses. So I mean, I I do want to read that. Like when you were talking about the baptism and then the transfiguration in first John chapter 5, verse 10, it talks about for one who has the witness, has the witness in himself, right? So if one were to deny um the father in that way, it would be the testimony that he gave of his son. And so the question that we you ask modalists or people who believe in the father is do you believe in the testimony that God gave of his son? And if you don't believe in that, scripture says you're calling him a liar. So there's so many places that we see this and it's applied as a whole. Um, you definitely can't cherry pick it. So um, yeah, it's just you know, being simple and understanding it by scripture, not philosophy of men. Um, exactly what scripture says is where we find the distinction. So yeah, I just wanted to add that.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Amen. Brother Pat, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Good evening, y'all. Um I kind of wanted to I also wanted to say something about what Grace said about why do why do people do this? Well, Grace, um the devil hates the gospel. And and um one thing as as you start getting into and learning more about um other religions that associate themselves with Christianity or claim to be Christian but are actually antichrist religions, there's two things that they always go after. And it's either who Christ is or what he accomplished on the cross. Almost every single cult, those two things, Father. I want you to think about this for a second. Grace, what if I was to ask not to you, it would be the same as race to you, right? Because you're you right, you're your own person. And so if if I went around claiming that you, your father's the same as erasing history, right? And so there's all sorts of heresies that your microphone is is really, really bad.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

You're breaking up really bad. We can't even hear you now if you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

It's just internet.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

I know it's bad.

unknown 2:57

All right.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

All right.

Clarity Over Confusion In Prayer

Submission, Kenosis, And Divine Roles

Mediation And Intercession Explained

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So anyway, let's keep going. So the second point that I wanted to make, um, first, after distinguishing the persons, I want to talk a little bit about the I don't believe that the word of God was that God was in the word of God trying to confuse us or trying to deceive us in any kind of way. Um and I don't think that that the word of God, when it was being put together by the Lord's direction, was causing us to go to a place where we needed to go really outside of any type of you know complex reasoning to understand something. So here's what I mean if the father and the son are the same person, then that would mean that the Lord Jesus Christ is praying to himself. Now, this is probably something that many modalists will argue, will come up with some argument about. But we so often find ourselves dealing with people who want to make everything some extravagant, um, and enigmatic puzzle to be solved in the word of God. Especially when you deal with these dispensationalists and these charismatics. There's always some secret Da Vinci Code, Harry Potter type of a of a of a conclusion that you have to find when you open up a certain box or or read a certain scroll with certain certain types of things. When the Lord Jesus Christ is praying, he is praying to his father, not to himself. And if there was a and if there was a way or if there was a reason that could be rationalized for that, we it would it would be it would spell it out. There's a reason why God wants us to understand this because that is the way it is. There are two persons. The son of God was praying to his father, and when his father answered the prayers, the answer was to provide support for his son. He wasn't trying to be deceptive. No rational person can read any passage of scripture where Christ is praying to his father and come to a conclusion that nope, he's not praying to anyone outside of himself. He's really just he's really just praying to himself. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ be asking himself for the very things that he could do himself if he was the same person? God is not trying to fool us, he's not trying to use trickery. There is no kind of a of a secret puzzle that needs to be figured out to understand the nature of God. When Jesus Christ prays to his father, which he often did, it is it is absurd, an absurd notion to walk away from reading that and conclude that no, he wasn't praying to anyone other than himself. That's just crazy. We see Christ submitting himself to the will of his father. We find him throughout scripture submitting himself to his father's will. Not my will. Christ said this, not my will, but your will. The father's will be done. So Christ as a man knows that he prays to his father, and not only does he pray to his father, but he submits in humility to his father. Remember, Christ also, it says that he gave up in Philippians chapter 2, he gave up his prerogatives as God. That was his humility, giving up his authority and his power as God. So as to not exercise what he had perfect liberty to do if he so willed. But he gave up his prerogatives when he was on earth. But guess whose prerogatives to exercise divine acts wasn't given up? The fathers and the holy spirits. Even when Christ the Son gave up his prerogatives as God, as we read in Philip Philippians chapter 2, the Father did not give up any of his, and neither did this the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The Son gave up his to become man, to become, to identify with us, to subject himself to the like passions that men have. Changing the name is not going to make it more palatable and it's not going to make it any, it's not going to make it true. The third point I want to get to is that modalism or oneness also destroys the doctrine of Christ's mediation. As I just mentioned, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, he's a mediator between man and God. A mediator to be a mediator, by definition, must be distinct from the parties to be reconciled. What does a mediator do? A mediator reconciles two parties. So that means for a mediator to be a mediator, by definition, there has to be two parties involved. The two parties that are involved, man and God. But Christ is the mediator. So if Christ is the father, he can't be a mediator. If he is the one being mediated to and with man, you understand? This is this is a mediator, is a go-between. Moses was a mediator between the people of Israel and God. He stood in the middle. No one calls Moses God. But in the same fashion, even though we know that Moses wasn't God, in the same fashion, Christ came here to do to a fuller and a more complete work what Moses was set on earth by God to do. Between God and men. There's one mediator that stands between in the middle, distinct from men and distinct from God. This one mediator, according to Paul in 1 Timothy 2, verse 5, this mediator is the man Christ Jesus. The man Christ Jesus. He is the mediator between God and man. He can't be a mediator unless he is distinct from those two groups. And Christ is distinct completely. He is not only God in the flesh, but he's also man that separates him from God. He is also in the flesh that distinct him from man because he is also God. And the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who is divine and human at the same time and perfectly so. And perfectly so. If the Son, well, Hebrews tells us that Christ also intercedes with God for us, he's our intercessor. So he's not only our mediator, but he is our intercessor. He intercedes on our behalf. It also tells us in the scriptures that Christ is our advocate. And it makes it plain that he is our advocate with the Father. What does the advocate do? He argues in our defense before the Father on our behalf. Christ intercedes. He prays even now to his father on our behalf. His mediatorial relationship that he established between us and the Father took place at Calvary. And if he's interceding on behalf of those whom he's representing to the one who is to be represented to, and the only way that he could be the mediator is if he is separate and distinct from those from whom he is trying to put their hands together and bring and establish reconciliation. Christ is the Son of God and the Son of Man. He is not the Father, he is not the Holy Spirit. And yet, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, these three are one in unity. They are triunal in nature. Any one of them that is pulled apart from that, they are no longer God. So anyone who says that Jesus Christ is the Father, is the Son, and is the Holy Spirit, they have just destroyed the very thing that makes God God. There's no way around that. No way around it. Anyone want to comment before I move on to point number four?

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Anybody?

SPEAKER_02 17:59

All right. So I'll move on to point number four. Oneness. Brother Pat, go ahead. Hopefully your phone is working all right now. Go ahead, brother.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Does it sound like I've got a connection now?

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yep, it does.

Community Reflections And Warnings

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Okay. Yeah. What I wanted to say earlier, you know, my phone was cutting out, is um is is to Grace. Grace, if I was to insist that you are your own father, right? Would that would be the same thing as erasing you, right? And and what we see is that um all these different doctrines that uh attack Christianity, they either attack Christ's work on the cross or him or him and as a person. And modalism is no different. They they try to erase the person and they try to erase the roles like Jonathan is talking about. So this is a it's very it's a very serious error because there's a lot of implications.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Amen, brother. It really is. Anyone else want to add anything? Brother Jeffrey, you want to add anything?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Again, I just want to uh add the importance of making sure this is straight in our minds, in our hearts, and especially in our conversations with other people. Okay, if we if we don't have this straight, Jonathan, then we are misleading others as we are misleading ourselves. Again, and but again, it it does take some time to sit down and study this like we're doing here now to understand it correctly. Father, son, and Holy Ghost uh each has its own separate role. Okay, and so uh Jesus, as I put in the bridge a moment ago, is there, I'm sorry, put in the scroll a moment ago, he is the bridge for us back to the Father. Jesus, his sacrifice on the cross fills the gap uh of sin between us and the Father. He is a mediator, for lack of a better word, that you were using a minute ago. He heals that uh uh uh uh valley or chasm, closes it between us and the father, that restores us back to uh uh relationship with the Lord. If God was one, like oneness was said, you know, all three parts of him would be on the cross. That didn't happen. So, amen. We've got to make sure that we have our minds around this correctly, Jonathan. That's right.

Election, Redemption, Regeneration

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So here's something else. So we have to understand that when we read about what the work of the Spirit does, what the work of the Son did, what the work of the Father has done, we understand why there are the distinctions in the person, the personalities or the hypostases, the personalities of the Godhead. So we have the God the Father, and many of you have heard me say this before. His role when it comes to our salvation is election. Election. That's what the God Father, that's what the Father does. He elects those who are saved to salvation. Election belongs solely to the Father, and then you have the Son. His role, his administrative work in the triune God's work in saving mankind is redemption. Redemption. He's the redeemer, and then you have the Spirit of God. What is his role in our salvation? Regeneration. He makes the new birth happen and continues. Working with us in that sanctification process. So you have the Father, whose role is election in our salvation, the Son, whose role is regenerative or redemption in our salvation, and the Holy Spirit's role in our salvation is regeneration. And these three things are what the different persons in the Godhead do to ensure and secure and to effectuate our salvation. Sister Evie, you wanted to say something. Go ahead, sister, and welcome.

Jewish Context And The Name

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Oh, good evening, guys. Thank you so much for having me. And such a great live the other day, Jonathan, just FYI. I was super blessed. Oh my goodness, it was awesome. Um, I just wanted to, I just wanted to add, um the Jewish people, the ones that were writing this, understood this language. You know, when you do the studies, right, it talks about, and that was their ancient Jewish argument. Like, it wasn't an argument. It was, yeah, because if they they the the joke is if you have two Jewish people in one room, there's three opinions. So they were very opinionated on this and they understood the language, and they called, they were trying to figure out what is this and uh what is the word, um, anthropomorphic attribute, a divine, you know, using human-like form and actions and and and emotions to make God relatable to human understanding. You know, for an example, like in Exodus 23, 20, um, 22 through 23, it explains, respect my Malach, it says, because my name is in him. See, that word name is big because remember, the name was where? The name was in the temple, the name was in Mount Sinai. You know, when when this was an agent that was speaking, this, you know, same, we have the same power here, we have the same will, we have these things right here that we see in the text. And they those that still want to believe that Jesus is not the Mashiach, He is the Mashiach, who they were waiting for. And so we have the completion of the book that says this is who he is. And you have so many today that want to follow the Old Testament when there's an incompletion of this Old Testament. It's not complete. That even when, you know, um they were in the synagogues in Acts, there, you know, the um, I think it was Apollos that was speaking, he had half of the gospel, you know, not the whole completion. And and but he was, you know, elegant in his speech and everything like that. But he was willing to leave and go talk to those, you know, Priscilla and and the other uh lady, and and was willing to get this information. And too many today wanna, you know, pass on this hill. They're not only just gonna pass on the hill, they're gonna pass for eternity if they don't get this understanding because it was in the text, it's completely there. And so it's a real sad thing because a lot of people are not willing to seek the word as it is, and it's complete today.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

So amen, sister.

Shema, Elohim, And Unity

Sent By The Father, Not Self

Incarnation Under The Law

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Listen, uh, you know, and you're right, sister Evie. And and there's there's a very popular verse in Deuteronomy, and I'm gonna read it because this is this was probably one of the more common expressions known to ancient Israel, the Israelites. And it comes in Deuteronomy chapter 6, and it says this in Deuteronomy chapter 6, verse 4. It says, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God. Notice this, the Lord our God is one Lord. The Lord our God is one Lord. Let me explain a little bit what this means. Because when it says the Lord, and when it says God, it is two different things. So the Lord Jehovah. You have the Lord of Jehovah, so and then you have God, which is Elohim, and as I already expressed, Elohim is plural. So when you refer to the verse that um Lisa brought up in Galatians, I mean in Genesis 126, let us make man in our image Elohim, plurality. So when you read Deuteronomy 6, 4, he is saying, Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, is one Jehovah. So Elohim is plural. Jehovah is a plurality of persons that is united as the one Jehovah. That's what it means. You have to understand yourself, you have to understand why it would say the Lord our God is one Lord, because the idea is that is that God is Elohim, He is a multiplicity of personalities, but He is one. So I just want to put that out there because that's a big that's a big thing when it comes to the the mindset of ancient Israel. That's something they understood. Now I'm gonna go to John chapter 6 to show something else. John chapter 6, for those of you who have your Bible, and this is what the Lord Jesus Christ says in verse 37. He says, All that the father has given me. So he distinguishes himself again from his father, and he says, All that the father gave to me shall come to me. They don't go to the, you know, they will come to him. And then he says, and him who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out. Now notice verse 38. The Lord Jesus Christ says, For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but to do the will of him that sent me. You read this passage, there is no way to confuse the fact that there are two different parties here involved. Christ says, I came down from heaven, where his father's own will, but it was the will of him who sent him. Well, the only way that that can be, that sentence, the only reason that this word can make any sense whatsoever is if you are able to make the distinction between the father and the son. And I don't know how that distinction can't be made. Because you don't need to be some kind of a scholar to understand this. You really dumb. In John chapter 17, in verse 6, listen what the Lord Jesus Christ says in verse 6 of John chapter 17. He's praying to his father in verse 5, and he says, And now, O Father, glorify uh glorify thou with me, with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was. Notice in verse 5, Christ speaks about the glory that he had before he came to earth with the Father, not as the Father, but with the Father. Now, in verse 6, the Lord Jesus says, I have manifested thy name unto the men which you gave me out of the world. Thine they were, they were yours, and you gave them to me, you gave them to me, and they have kept my word. Christ makes it clear, in casual speaking, in casual speaking, that his father was distinct from him as the son. And he says that Christ says that what he came here to redeem were those whom his father gave to him, and he said he came here not to do his own will, but to do the will of his father. I'm gonna keep going with this, but the argument is firmly established, firmly established, they are different in in Galatians chapter four. Let me get one more verse here in this on this subject. Galatians chapter four. In verse four, we read this when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his son, made of a woman, under the law. Notice, God sent his son who was made of a woman. The father was not made of a woman, the Holy Spirit was not made of a woman. It was the son who was made of a woman and was made subject to the law. Remember, our atonement, our salvation is based on the Son of God coming here in human flesh to obey God's law. So that by doing so, he on our behalf can appease his father for us. If the father came down here and did that, we wouldn't be, we would not have salvation. This is something only the son could do. And it says that the son came under the law to do what? To redeem those that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And then he says, and because you are sons, God again, God sent forth the spirit of his son into your hearts. So now you have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the world.