LIVE DISCUSSION: "The Oneness/Modalism Heresy" Part 4/4

Start with love that existed before anything was made. That’s the thread we pull as we open Proverbs 8, John 3, Matthew 3, and John 5 to explore how the Father delights in the Son through the Spirit—and why that eternal relationship safeguards the gospel we preach. We move from text to clarity, showing how Scripture’s demand for two or three witnesses undercuts modalism and anchors the reliability of Jesus’ claims.

We get practical fast. Questions pour in about the first “light” in Genesis, the Spirit hovering over the waters, and what it really means for Jesus to be at the right hand of God if there’s only one throne in heaven. We unpack how biblical throne language points to authority and dominion rather than physical seating, and why the ascended, incarnate Christ sharing the Father’s reign is the best news for weary disciples. Along the way, we map Daniel 7’s Son of Man, John 1’s Word, and Revelation’s river of life to show how the canon speaks with one voice: God alone creates, and the Father, Son, and Spirit work inseparably as one God in three distinct persons.

You’ll also hear thoughtful guardrails for study: how doctrinal errors multiply when the doctrine of God is off, how to test teachings by Scripture, and how analogies like Adam and Eve can help without replacing revelation. The tone stays warm and pastoral, with space for real questions and honest wrestling, pointing you toward a faith that is both sturdy and adoring. If you’re navigating conversations with friends or family about the Trinity, or if you want deeper confidence that the gospel rests on God’s own self-giving love, this one will steady your steps and sharpen your answers.

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Transcript

Eternal Love In Scripture

SPEAKER_08 0:00

You love me before the foundation of the world. John 3.35. The Father loves the Son. Matthew 3.17. This is my beloved son. This is the son of my love. And lastly, I will close with reading this section out of Proverbs 8. And then I'll take uh you know comments and get the last words from everybody. Starting with Sister Grace. In Proverbs 8.22. Many of you, I'm sure, are quite familiar with this passage, but notice what this says. Proverbs 8.22. I'm gonna read down to verse 30, so bear with me. It's the Lord speaking, the Lord Jesus Christ speaking, basically. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. And notice the first the first three words, the Lord, first four words, the Lord possessed me. I was with him. When in the beginning of his way, before the works of old. Notice verse 23. I was set up from everlasting from the beginning, before the earth ever was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth. When there were no fountains abounding with water, before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth. While I was, while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there. When he set a compass upon the face of the death, when he established the clouds above, when he strengthened the fountains of the deep, when he gave to the sea his decree that the water should not pass his commandment. When he appointed the foundations of the earth, then I was by him. I was not him, I was by him, I was with him, I was possessed by him, as one brought up with him, not as him, with him. I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him. To use language such as this. But he redeems why? Because he is loved of the Father. And those who are loved do lovable things. Believers are saved by being placed inside the Son of God's love. That is all. Amen. And listen, let me let me tell you something. Sometimes things can have a um boomerang effect, if you will. And you may have questions later on, and you may think, well, you know, somebody may come tell you, but this and that and the other. And just feel free to come back. I will never tire of addressing um questions that come in earnest, in sincerity. And uh, and I'm sure I'm speaking the same for everybody here on this panel, because if there's something I can't make clear, I'm certain that somebody here will. Um, but you know, but thank you for your comments and and and and willingness to come back and to engage with us. And so I appreciate you, sister. And like I said, come back as often as you like. There'll always be a space here, as long as there's a space available when you come. And uh, and if not, as we've spoken uh over the past few days in the text, always write to me and and and we can talk about whatever is on your mind. Brother Rod, your thoughts, brother.

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Thanks for having me. Um, no, just another good lesson again tonight. Sorry I was late. Um one takeaway I want to say is that uh I guess I got a little bit more detail about, you know, the you know, the Trinitarian versus the woman that's the way. I was just actually talking to my father about that. And he was telling me that his wife actually believes in the other side. So I have some things that defend it now. If I decide to even say something to her, I probably will say something to him. I might just keep it to myself. But I don't know until I feel ready to bring it up. But we were just having a discussion, so it's funny that that's what I landed into when I came into the room tonight. But again, like I said, thank you. It's another good lesson.

SPEAKER_08 6:52

Thank you. I appreciate that. And let me tell you something, and and I don't, I don't, I hardly ever say this, but I have to a couple people. I I nothing that I have is a secret. So if there's if anybody wants to uh if you ever want the notes that I'm actually that I'm actually speaking from, my own notes, um, and you can make sense of them, I'm willing to send it to anybody who who ever wants it. So um just so if anybody ever wants the notes that I have on them, I'll send them to you. Uh otherwise the full message that we're going over tonight will be posted tomorrow. So you'll get to see that. All right, no problem. Thank you. Sister Meg, last word.

SPEAKER_06 7:33

Um, Grace said in the comments that she would like your notes, Jonathan. Um, I think my my last thing, and I don't know if Jonathan talked about this because I was on the phone. Um, I think that one of the most beautiful things as well about our God is that God will never go against his word. And there's something very interesting in scripture that says, on the account of two or three witnesses, all matters shall be established. And so, did you go over that at all?

SPEAKER_08 8:02

No, no.

Daily Delight And Redeeming Love

SPEAKER_06 8:03

Okay. So, what's beautiful is that the father testifies of the son, and the son testifies of the father, and then you have the son testifying of the Holy Spirit and of the father, and then you have the Holy Spirit that testifies of the Son and the Father. And this is to me one of the most beautiful things in Scripture because, again, this is the completeness of the testimony, um, and the and the testimony of God Himself. And so we see it oftentimes in Scripture. It's just the most beautiful love story ever. And we see how the Father reveals the Son in the Old Testament, and then we get to the New Testament and we see that the Son reveals the Father in the New Testament, and we just see all of these, it's just so beautiful to see that this relationship between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the witness and part of that love. It's just beautiful. And if it were any other way, you know, it wouldn't be God. And so this is who he is. This is, and he has given us the grace to um reveal himself to us in the best way that we can understand. Um, and I think sometimes if we make things too difficult, then it takes away from who God truly is. And so just knowing that God is love and it's not self-serving love, it's a relational love that the father has with the son. And it's just that's our God is a relational God, and he's relational with us. Not only was he relational with uh relational with us, he's relational relational in the way that he made his creation. We see how God called Adam and Eve. You know, there was two people there, but he called them Adam. As we see that the man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become one. It's the picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and his church in marriage. And so these are just beautiful testimonies that we see through scripture that is absolutely ruined by modalism. It's ruined. And so I would challenge you guys, study this, and y'all better be ready to give an answer for this, if it if somebody asks. This is something that we defend, right?

Closing Reading And Q&A Setup

SPEAKER_08 10:38

Yeah, this is this is a big one. Like Meg mentioned, this is a great point that I definitely um have had in previous debates with people over this whole thing, which is what we all understand in the scripture when it talks about let let it let every word be established at the mouth of two or three witnesses. And so in John 5.31, Christ says this. He says, If I bear witness of myself, then my witness is not true. But he says, There's another that bears witness of me, and and and I know that the witness which is which he witnesses of me is true. He's talking about his father. So so the so if Christ were the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, then he couldn't be, there would be he would be his own witness. And so Omega Sand is 100% correct. Again, this it establishes firmly that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot all be, they're not the same. They're the same God, they are God, but they are distinct persons that could make up the Godhead. But like Christ says, if I bear witness of myself, which is what modalism, that's what they have to say. He bore witness to himself, but he said, if that is true, then my witness is not true. But there is one there bear witness of me, my father. And he testifies of me. So, and he said that he and it can be in verse 34. He says, But I receive not testimony from man. So Christ acknowledges that in order for his whatever he says to be true, there needs to be a second witness, but that witness can't be of man, which leaves only God, his father. So good point, Meg. Thank you for bringing that up, brother Pat. Go ahead. Last word from my brother.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

Um, Brother Jonathan, you guys inspired some questions in Grace. Do you mind if you come back to me? Um, but she has some questions.

SPEAKER_08 12:43

Oh, I'll come back to her quick. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

All right. Well, you know, one thing that um it's no secret that I'm a big fan of Charles Spurgeon. And one of his favorite, uh, my favorite sermons of his is a sermon called Hold Fast to the Form of Sound Words. And Spurgeon emphasizes a principle that heresy is not something that just exists in a vacuum and you can be wrong about and it won't affect other things. It when you have a fundamental error, you build upon that error, like building a f upon a foundation of a house, and it and the problems multiply. And so if you get your doctrine of God wrong, it will affect every doctrine eventually. You you are hard pressed to find Unitarians that um where they're Unitarians for their for a long period of time and their doctrines anywhere close to sound because error multiplies. And so it's really important that we get this right. And I just want to say, as an American, Unitarianism has been a part of our society for a long time.

SPEAKER_08 13:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Our first vice president was a man named Jan John Adams, a very beloved person, and his wife Abigail Abigail were very beloved. And in his later years, he broke the heart of the nation by leaving the faith and becoming Unitarian. And the nation mourned over that, right? It was a sad moment in American history. This stuff has been here for a long time, knocking at our door. Amen, brother.

SPEAKER_08 14:29

Sister Grace, you got a couple of questions.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yes. So um, my first question is from Genesis, uh, because it says, uh, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And that the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, Uh, let there be light, and there was light. So I was just wondering, like, is the like what light is he referring to? Because later, um in verses 14 it says, and God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night. So to me, like, so so Jesus is the light of the world. So is he referring to let there be light as in Jesus? Or no.

SPEAKER_08 15:29

No, this is speaking, this is speaking about the luminaries in the sky, the stars and the moon, the stars and the moon and the planets. So when he talks about in verse 14, the firmament's uh that lights be in the firmament, he's talking about sun, moon, stars. That's what that's speaking to.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Okay, yeah, then okay, that makes sense. And then my second question was like, so um another like rebuttal that I get from people regarding um like the Godhead and the Trinity and everything is that um that there's only that there's only one throne in heaven, and that um when it says in the Bible that Jesus will be will sit at the right hand of God, that it that it's like it's just as a title as in um that Jesus is you know holds power. And they're saying like there's only one throne. So that part was kind of confusing.

Panel Reflections Begin

Notes, Resources, And Posting Plans

SPEAKER_08 16:34

There there is only one throne, but but but you when you look at when you when you see the reference to Christ being at the right hand of God, that is speaking about his power and authority. And power and authority that existed, that it that is now exists in a way that it hasn't before. Remember, there was no there was no human figure in heaven, in hum in humanity, and the one thing that wasn't at the one thing that wasn't sharing power with God was a person in human form until Christ ascended on high. So when it talks about him at the right hand, it is speaking toward his power. It's not talking about actual seats, it's not talking about chairs and and and what we look at as human thrones, but it is talking about he in his person, in his divine, you know, in his person, combining his humanity with his divinity. This is a new thing that is that is in the that is in the heavens right now, and he has a right to all power and authority. Remember, when Christ left, when he when he was ascending on high, he acknowledged that all power in heaven and the earth had been given to him. And it was a gift to him by his father. You know, so when you talk about the thrones, you're talking about his authority, you're talking about his power, you're talking about his dominion with his equal, which is equal to God. So when it says, so you know, like there's no way that when you think about it, that that God as the as the overriding essence that we've always known him to be, is sitting in a throne, sitting on a on a physical type of a throne. Um, but it's talking about Christ's power and his authority being equal to that of what has been known to be God as a you know as a monarch in the ancient view of things. You know, now you see the son that has come to earth, the son of God who put on human flesh, resurrected in his body, and now you have this figure that we can see and touch and handle, who has been given all authority over all creation by his father. I hope that makes sense. And if anybody wants to add to that, feel free. Does that make sense, Grace?

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Makes total sense. Thank you for clearing that up. Can I add something to that real quick?

SPEAKER_08 19:14

Go for it.

SPEAKER_06 19:15

Okay, I think, and now I have heard some Trinitarians, which I think is wrong. A lot of people have the view well, well, what are we gonna see in heaven? Well, some some people believe we're gonna see an old man, a young man, and a bird flying around. And that's just not the case. Okay. So it's we are going to see the Lord Jesus Christ because he is the visible image of the invisible God. Right. Right. And we also see in Revelations that that that what proceeds from the throne is the Holy Spirit. It's the river of life. This is the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son. So we see all of these things, all of these things in heaven, but the Father reveals, I mean, the Son reveals the Father perfectly. Did I say that correctly?

SPEAKER_08 20:16

Uh sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_06 20:17

Yeah, okay. I just wonder. Do you understand that, Grace? I think so many times in scripture you take things so literally sometimes, but we have to understand, like Jonathan said, that the son in human form was not seen before. Because God is spirit, right? It was then when the father sent the son, right? The son of God who became the man Christ Jesus, right? Beautiful.

SPEAKER_08 20:47

Amen. Sister Evie, last word for tonight, sister.

Two Or Three Witnesses In Theology

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yes, absolutely. And I just wanted to add to that that uh grace, what I read earlier in Daniel 7, 9, right? Remember that they were waiting for um coming, right? And I had said he had came to his own, and his own did not receive him. But um, in the vision of Daniel, when it says, and I kept looking in a night vision, and behold, there was um with the clouds of heaven, one like the Son of Man who came upon the ancient of days. And then if you keep going, it says, and to him was given dominion, glory, and the kingdom at all to all the people, the nations and men. And so that's exactly what we have today. We see that he ran, he, you know, works with humanity in particular covenants, right? We see, you know, how he worked with the people in the Old Testament, how he's working with us now. We have the completion of it, and we have that Holy Spirit that works with us today, which is, you know, he's gonna convict us, he renews us. You know, the the scriptures testify about exactly what he does. And it draws us to Christ. And so I think that the more we dig into the scriptures, the more we can understand. Because I think it it has everything to do with wanting to know. And going to platforms that are healthy platforms that are not going to bring you confusion is beneficial, I think, because I think that's a part of growing. One of the things that I like to say is if you have the wrong Christology, you have the wrong gospel. Because I mean it's clear how it works. And we're regenerated. You know what I'm saying? Once we there's there's a justification, then there's a sanctification process that happens. And then at the end, we're glorified. And so that's the promise, that's the hope of the believer. And so I think that um the more we ponder on the scriptures and the more that we can just ask them. I I know that I did, you know, I said, Lord, I need you to help me understand your word. It's it's something that I have a urgency in my soul that I want to get to know you better. And those were my prayers before I, because I literally used to read it and say, I didn't understand nothing of that. I just didn't get it. And so the more that I just, you know, yearn for um understanding the scriptures, it literally you go from like it says, you know, this is a race, and you go from understanding it in like a milk process to like a period process. And some of the meat is hard to chew, as we can see, those that eat meat, you know, it's a real thing. So um, I'm just thankful for this platform, and I thank you for giving me a couple of minutes.

SPEAKER_08 23:38

No problem, sister. Uh Sister Mariah, last words for tonight.

Christ’s Testimony And Anti‑Modalism Case

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Um, yes. I um just wanted to say that there's some scriptures that say that God alone created, you know, the heavens and the earth, and God alone did this and he did that. Um, but I think from my understanding, is to testify, and again, this word it that's used for God is Elohim, which means it's a single plural word, but um, you have in these other worlds or other um ethnic groups who like Greek, you have one who's over water and one who's over this, and one who's over that, and he's just making it clear that he alone has done all of this. The son, the father, the son, and the holy spirit is who has overseen all of creation. And um, so I did and then I wanted to just say um that I was reading, and you know, it dawned on me that God, when he created Adam, he said he put him to sleep and he took forth his rib and he created um Eve, and he named them Adam. Um and it it made sense to me in this way, and I hope it makes sense when I'm saying it out loud, that the son proceeds forth from the father, and Eve proceeded forth from Adam, but Eve is not Adam, and Adam is not Eve, but they are the same nature, they have the same nature and the same qualities that one um versus the other and and everything else. So we see this, and in the two, they become one flesh. So they are one, but we know that they are two, you know. It's just as simple as that, is that in that in that illustration, we can see how the son of God is God, but he's not the father. And a lot of people, when you just say God, all they hear is the father, and that can be furthest from the truth.

SPEAKER_08 26:01

That's exactly the truth. That's exactly right. Exactly right. That's what that's that's what they start with, that premise, and that's what gets people uh fooled. You know, in fact is it many people just don't take the time to apply themselves to discover these things, and that's what we need to do. And um, yeah, so you're right, sister, 100%. Sister Lisa, last word for tonight.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Oh, this is another good one. Um Sister Grace, I can so relate to you. Um, and I gotta tell you, you have been blessed um by coming across this live and meeting with Brother Jonathan. Um I have known him for many years now, and I gotta tell you, this man will, if you have any confusion, anytime, any, you know, you can call on him. Um and there's so much more wisdom in this group. Uh, Sister Meg, Mariah, Evie, Brother Pat, Jeffrey, Irod, all of us um have something. Um and we're all here for you. Um my advice to you would really be careful about the lives that you attend and and the stuff that you, you know, scripture tells us to guard our ears and guard our eyes, you know, what we watch, what we listen to. And if you the confusion comes when we start hearing these false things. Um you know, you have the Spirit of God who will lead you in all truth. That happens at his pace. Unfortunately, we want to know everything right now. Sometimes that was me. I cried out to the Lord many times. I just don't understand, Lord. I don't understand. And gradually, you know, you get the understanding. Um but lastly, I just want to read John 1 1 through 1.3. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning, or he was he was in the beginning with God. This is the Lord Jesus. So Jesus is the word, all things were made through him, and without him, nothing was made. You know, the verses that you just brought up a minute ago about the spirit of God was hovering over the waters when nothing before everything was created. We see the Trinity right there. God is there, and now you know in John 1, the word was with God, and that all three are there right at the beginning before anything. And it was through Christ Jesus that all things were made. So it's so beautiful. And um, I'm just I'm happy you're here. And you know, there's a lot of wisdom here. So I hope you stick around and come back.

SPEAKER_08 28:56

Amen. Good one, good one. Brother Jeffrey, last word and close us out, brother.

Heresy Multiplies: Guard Doctrine

SPEAKER_07 29:04

All right, wow. Uh Jonathan, I think and I hope anyway, I can speak for the entire panel tonight. There was something here tonight, brother, for everyone. For those who may have needed some spiritual milk that are still cutting their teeth on the gospel, they were filled tonight. For those who are a little bit more mature, who've been in the gospel a little bit longer, there was some definite grade A spiritual meat here tonight. So, Jonathan, I just want to take the opportunity to say thank you for uh the spiritual feeding. And Jonathan, a lot of times too, uh, I like to call this teaching reinforcement. It's something that we should know. But sometimes, Jonathan, it's good to go back over the things that we know that we know, but go over it again anyway. Reinforce it, make it stronger, and you think it further into your brain. And that's what I feel like you've done here tonight for all of us. So thank you so much for that. Appreciate it. All right. All right, let's close this thing out in prayer. And everybody, listen, uh, real quick, let's begin praying for Megan's sister, who will be having surgery on Thursday. Is that correct, Megan?

SPEAKER_06 30:17

Yeah, the fifth. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 30:19

Okay. And uh pray that all goes well with that, and that uh uh she's able to be there and to uh speak with the doctors when this is all done, and that they get nothing but an excellent report. Father, we thank you tonight for your presence here. Oh, you're so good to us, Lord. You've given us reinforcement tonight, you've given guidance, Lord, to someone who needed to know more about uh how you are Father, and there's the Father, God the Father, God the Son, and then the Holy Spirit. And we are so grateful, Lord, for you showing us that. Oh, thank you, Jesus. And Lord, we want to lift up uh Megan's sign, what they need to find. They're gonna get it taken care of, they're gonna get her on the mend, on her way to being fully well, fully recovered, and back to having more and life uh uh within her life, Lord, and living it to the very, very fullest. And Lord, we're just grateful for your presence here tonight. Thank you again for this incredible study. Help us retain it, Lord, and speak it the next time. Holy Spirit, you prompt us to speak it. And with all of that, we say thank you, Jesus. We love you in your incredible, mighty, holy name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_08 31:41

Thank you, brother. We appreciate that. Hey, Mariah, you got you got our you got our you got our children ready?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

No, they're running around.

SPEAKER_08 31:50

Oh right, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

But I love you guys. Good night. Hey, hey, Mariah, I think.

SPEAKER_06 32:03

I can act like or we can even say, hey, wear him here. I love those words.

SPEAKER_08 32:21

I'm gonna say tonight. So you guys have a good one, good one tonight. Be provoked, be persuaded.

Genesis Questions: Light And Spirit

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Persuaded, amen. Don't be a building, don't be a building, or an Ellie Faz for that matter.