LIVE DISCUSSION: (Job 15:21-23) "WICKED MAN'S DEMISE" Part 1/4

Ever been cornered by “old wisdom” that doesn’t fit your real life? We dive into Job 15, where Eliphaz stacks tradition, lineage, and supposedly pure teaching against a suffering friend, then slides into a sweeping portrait of the “wicked man” that feels more like a veiled accusation than careful counsel. The tension is palpable: if the ancients all agree and the pattern is clear, what space is left for Job’s agony or God’s hidden purposes?

We walk through Eliphaz’s appeal to authority, the claim that truth stays untainted within the fathers’ circle, and the rhetorical shift that uses broad theology to make a narrow judgment. Along the way, we ask hard questions. When do doctrines that are generally true become damaging in personal cases? How do we keep discernment tethered to love so our counsel doesn’t turn into a courtroom? And what do we do when the tidy system says “guilty” but the Spirit says “wait”?

This study doesn’t just parse ancient speeches; it probes the heart. We contrast the anxious restlessness of life without God with the quiet courage of hope in Christ. We reflect on Job’s patience under pressure, the friends’ certainty that misfires, and the larger comfort of God’s sovereignty—Satan can’t move an inch beyond permission, and suffering is never wasted for those who belong to the Lord. If you’ve ever watched truth used like a hammer when a hand was needed, this conversation offers a better path: listen longer, judge slower, hold to Scripture, and let mercy guide the application.

Join us as we trace the fault lines between tradition and truth, accusation and aid, despair and assurance. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs thoughtful encouragement, and leave a review to help others find the study. How have you learned to pair sound doctrine with gentle wisdom? We’d love to hear your story.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Job 15

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Christians. Good evening on this Tuesday night. I hope and trust that all is well. Looking forward to tonight's conversation in the book of Job as we continue our exposition on this book verse by verse. Now, we are in Job chapter 15. And we're going to be continuing, as I said, this exposition. And but we're making a shift in the sense that what was spoken of last by Job or by Eliphaz to Job is that Job needed to appeal to antiquity. He needed to appeal to tradition in order to find the truth. And he needed to go back to what the wise men said and what they taught. And so what happened, these you know, Eliphaz was trying to tell Job, well, you know, listen, we have history on our side. And Eliphaz last told Job, I need you to listen to me. I'm going to tell you what you need to know, Job. I'm going to tell you what you need to know. And you need to hear me on this. And in verse 17, he says, and that which I have seen, I will declare unto you, Job. In other words, Eliphaz is weighing in on his own experience to validate the perception of veracity that he expects Job to embrace. He wants Job to understand certain truths about what he is saying based on his own experience, not purely and solely on the truth of the word of God. And I'm sure this can take many directions. But in verse, in verse 17, he says, I will show you, hear me, and that which I have seen I would declare. And then he goes into verse 18, and he says, Which wise men have told from their fathers. So now he's talking about two different groups, the wise men and then their fathers, who we can perceive are wiser than the wise men. So what Eliphaz is telling Job is, listen, I'm telling you something that I've heard from wise men, and those wise men heard these things from their fathers, which means even wiser men than they. And so he's using this to strengthen his argument against Job in terms of what it is he accuses Job of, in terms of the position that he is in, that is to be under the weight of this grievous oppression and affliction that he is currently undergoing. And then in verse 19, they say, Eliphos continues to add and says, unto whom alone, meaning these wise men and their fathers, unto whom alone the earth was given. Got rid of him, that's pretty cool. All right. Unto whom alone the earth was given, and no strain surpassed among them. And what he is saying here is simply this that the wise men and their sons, and perhaps even themselves, they have received this traditional understanding about things. And in verse 19, it says that so much so that the earth was given to these men alone, and no stranger passed among them. In other words, no foreigners came in and contaminated the tradition of the elders. Basically, what these guys, this guy is telling Job is to, is to, he needs to go back to the old times, the good old days. And so his conclusion is that listen, I have antiquity and tradition on my side, Job, and certainly you have me here, Eli Faz says, you have me here, you have Zophar here, you have Bildad here, you have the testimony of the wise men in history, and you have the testimony of the fathers of the wise men. So, Job, is it possible? Are you suggesting that it is possible that there's something that all of us are missing and only you have correct? How can all of us be wrong, Job, and you be right? This is his argument, and it seems to be one of those arguments that when all else fails, we will appeal to tradition, we will appeal to the former times, we will appeal to the good old days, when things were good, and things, and when truth and goodness, and righteousness was not contaminated by the foreigners. That's what he's saying. This is what he's talking about. Strangers didn't come in and disrupt it. Now I have to say before I go on, I said last night that I thought we would get through the rest of this chapter. Tonight, I realized after going through my notes tonight that, or today, that that's probably not gonna happen. I was a little overly ambitious, but that's a good thing because that just means that we're going to dig a little deeper into these things as we continue to discuss them. And I know that many of you are gonna have valuable input that will contribute to the uh comments that I intend to make. So we'll continue. So let me read verses 20 through 23 to begin with, and then we'll get into the Bible study itself. In verse 20, Eli Foss makes a transition from antiquity from the elders, and now he makes a transition from them to the wicked man. And he says in verse 20, the wicked man travails with pain all his days, and the number of years is hidden to the oppressor. A dreadful sound is in his ears, in prosperity to the destroyer shall come upon him. He believes not that he shall return out of darkness, and he is waited, he is waited for by the sword. He wanders abroad for bread, saying, Where is it? He knows that the day of darkness is ready at hand. So let me stop there for a minute and try to group these together. But the verses that follow do continue the theme that is being discussed here by by Eliphons. But we start with this transition of the wicked man, which is what he's talking about. The wicked man. So in verse 20, the wicked man travails with pain all his days. The number of years is hidden to the oppressor. So now we have this doctrine, this doctrinal change, this doctrinal transition, which goes from authority that Eli Faz was appealing to, the authority of the wise men, the elders and and you know, and the fathers of the wise men. It changes from authority now to a different type of a description. The wicked are here depicted as those who are inwardly tormented throughout their life, throughout their life. The wicked are depicted as being inwardly tormented throughout their life, and this should provide some comfort for us who are believers, because we have a tendency as well to look at the what we perceive to be the blessings that the wicked seem to be enjoying. But here Eliphaz says something that is true the wicked man travails with pain all his days, and the number of his years is hidden to the oppressor. Now, again, what Eliphaz is saying is something that is very true. It is very true, but I'm I'm certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he is using this language and speaking in a way where he's backhandedly, backhandedly referring to Job as the wicked man who is travailing. You know, he doesn't come, he doesn't just come out and say, Job, you're this, you're that. No, he uses this sort of backhanded approach. And you know, there are a lot of people that we can be around when they want to be, when they want to tell us something that they think might not be easily acceptable or embraced by us coming from them, they find crafty ways of saying the same thing. Often by by often putting what they're saying and making a connection between what they want to say to us and attaching it to someone else or others or somebody generic, the wicked man. It seems to me that he's calling Job this wicked man, except he's not he's not directly assigning this to Job. But it seems this is what he is is is saying. And I wouldn't argue with someone who has a different perspective on this, but this is what I see in here. Um, and I certainly don't think it's excluded, whatever may come out of it. Because remember, these guys have nothing to say good about Job at all. So we see here that the wicked man in this verse in verse 20, that their suffering is continu, it continues. It's continual, it's incessant. It says here that the wicked man travails with pain, and it says, How long? All of his days. All of his days. So, what would be the point in saying this if he's not applying it to Job? Because the only one in this narrative here who is undergoing any suffering is Job himself. He's the only one suffering. And this is the reason why I believe that he is he is directing this message, this what he's saying in a backhanded way, referring to Job. You're the you're the wicked man, Job. You are the wicked one. But notice he's crafty at doing it. He talks in a generic sense, though this is what happens to the wicked man. They travail with pain all their days, and the number of their years is hidden to the oppressor. But he's talking about Jove. He's talking about Jove. And the image of this travail that he's talking about, it suggests anguish. Much anguish. It suggests restlessness of soul. You can't be comfortable, you can't be comforted. And it also suggests that there is inward pressure going on. There's an inward pressure, and the pressure is like this this thing where there's guilt building up, and man, the wicked man, refuses to admit his guilt. And so the pressure continues to build. The pressure continues to build. And this is the picture that I see here. This is the picture that I see here. And I'm going to be asking you in a minute what all of you think, assuming that you so you sort of you've gone through this version and come up with some ideas about it. But one thing is clear that when it comes to the wicked, the uncertainty of life intensifies the torment that is clear that they go through. Because what Eli Faz is saying is true. But when you have no idea the road or the pathway that life is going to take you down, and you are living in such a way where God is not involved in your life, there is no possibility of not having this fear of torment, especially and particularly as you advance in age and in years. And one thing's for sure, the wicked are not prepared for their last days. You see, the Christian, we are always prepared for the last day. We're always prepared for it. And we should always be looking forward and for the hasting of the day of our Lord's return. We should be looking for that, prepared for it. The way we live is preparation for death here, so we can be raised to glory and to go into the eternal habitations prepared for us by God from before the foundation of the world. But the wicked, all they have is uncertainty. And the approaching death that is to come upon all men who don't know God, they are facing uncertain times. And their biggest and greatest hope in life is that death will be the absence of everything and entering into nothing. That is their best hope. They have no blessed assurance, like Brother Floyd says. They don't have that. We do. But they have no hope in this world. None. The wicked don't know how long judgment may be delayed. They have no idea how long it will take to get here, to arrive, to overwhelm them. But the ignorance of that feeds their anxiety, an anxiety that we know nothing about. Because we look forward to the day our Lord comes for us. We look forward to that with great expectation. We look forward to that. But power and oppression bring no peace. He says here, and the number of years for the wicked is hidden to the oppressor. Notice the oppressor. The oppressor. No matter how many and how long the extent or the reign of their impression, their oppression is, it brings no peace. It brings no peace to them. Brings no peace to them. Instead, they prolong inward fear and unrest. All they have, all they have is the uncertainty and anxiety and the intensity of soul of an expected day where they have no idea what awaits them. And most know what awaits them, but they refuse to look at it and to face it with spiritual sobriety. And the only way that you can face it with spiritual sobriety is to know Christ and to have been made aware of your sinful nature and how you have offended the thrice holy God and how you need to close in with him some kind of way to be reconciled to God. And that some kind of way is only one way, and that is through Christ the Lord, Christ our Savior. No other way. What he is saying here is that the wicked man, the wicked man who doesn't know God, he travails with pain all his days. There's no peace in his soul. In the number of years that he has, it is hidden to him. So he continues to oppress, he continues to abuse his power and his authority. He doesn't know the day of his death. And this is causing chaos in the soul, and chaos which many of which we don't see. But the word of God is telling us that they have travail and pain all their days. Before I go to verse 21, I want to give everybody a chance to get your opening remarks and uh see what things you want to add or take away from what I've already said so far, just to get your input and to uh, you know, so we can reason together. Uh, brother Jeffrey, your opening remarks so far, brother.

SPEAKER_05 18:56

Yeah, good evening, Jonathan, and good evening, panel. Boy, Jonathan, we've got an excellent panel in here tonight, man. I think we're gonna have a really good study tonight. Yeah, we see that uh Job's friend Elifoss just continues to pile on top of Job, trying to beat, squirm, or any other way against some sort of a confession of sin out of Job so they can get to what they believe is the bottom of the issue, totally unaware that God's up to something completely different. And so uh one of the things that um impresses me here, real quick, Jonathan, is the patience that Job has not only wading through his own distress and difficulty, but dealing with his three, as I've called them, knuckle-headed friends that keep accusing him, but don't have a clue. They are clueless as to what's really happening. And yet Job is dealing with that. We've already read that Job said you guys are are are totally blind as to what's going on here. And I think here later on in another chapter, in fact in verse 16, he's gonna go even further than that, but or chapter 16. But anyway, he is dealing with it. He hasn't lashed out at his friends, he's letting them talk even though they don't know what they're talking about. So that just goes to show you that Job's patience is really being built up here.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Amen, brother. Amen. Sister Candy, opening remarks. Sister Candy, you there? I'm gonna move on. All right, Sister Lisa, opening remarks. Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Hey, good evening. Um, I I agree with what you what your assessment was, Jonathan. Um here we have Ellie Faz speaking about you know the wicked man who is in pain. And the one, the only one there that there's there that's in pain is poor Job. I mean, the man is suffering, and basically without coming out and saying it, you know, Job, you you you're wicked. They're accusing him of unrepentant sin because he won't relent and he won't, you know, just confess for them. And and it, I think it's I think it's aggravating for them because they've really set their mind on the fact that this guy must be guilty. And I think they believe what they're saying. Um, they believe and it and it's frustrating them because he won't um he he won't just back down and say, okay, guys, yeah, he he won't concede at all. So I think it sort of that meanness comes out when you want them to say something, um, and they won't say it, and you just okay, well, right, I'm gonna get you to say it. So I believe what you said. So I look forward to hearing what we have more. What we have.

Patience Of Job Under Pressure

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Yeah, you're right, sister. I think I think it's. It's one of the kind of things like what somebody just said, you know, Job is like saying, Tell me something I don't I don't already know. And and but you know, this is it's almost like because we've heard from Ellie Faz already, right? We've already heard from him. And it's almost like he's it's almost like in this particular chapter, he's taking a different task, he's taking a different approach. And you get the sense that he's trying whatever he can to get Job to amend his response. But Job has been, his face has been set like a flint in his position. And and it's like Ellipers is trying to figure out, man, nothing I say is sticking to him. You know, so he's trying everything. He's appealing to antiquity. He earlier he appealed to doctrinal, doctrinal ideas and orthodoxy. And now he's he's he's he's talking about in a backhanded way, he's making references to the wicked, but but you but he's not going at Job like Bildad does. He's not really going at him hard and heavy. He's sort of saying, this is the situation with wicked people. He's not really saying, Job, you're the one, but he's telling him that in a very different kind of way. This is how, and this is how sometimes people that we know and love will talk to us when they don't want to confront us boldly. And um, so it's something to think about here. Uh, Brother Jeff, man of God.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Hey, thanks for having me back. Uh it seems like I've been gone forever.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Too long.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

But anyway, I missed all you guys, but I'm here now. Uh, you know, my thoughts on this is, you know, like uh Lisa and put put those posts on the Bible chat group from those two fat rabbis talking uh trash about our Lord. Uh I don't think those guys are suffering too much. They're just so hard-hearted to blind. Uh, you know, I mean, uh Elifaz is making a general statement here. I don't think everybody that's wicked is suffering that much necessarily. Because if they have no concept of what awaits them and their heart is so hardened, then they they don't care. And uh they're probably they're probably a nihilist anyway. They they think that after you die, you just kind of disappear and you know your atoms go re get recycled or some some nonsense like that. But uh, you know, again, you know, they don't know the story. They don't know the story behind Joe. We do. That's the nice thing about it, is we're seeing it from our perspective. But the thing is, again, they're making the mistake of of assuming they know what's really going on and they don't. And I'm sitting there, I'd be sitting there going, I'd be embarrassed for those guys. You know, I'd be sitting there going, hey, shut up. You know, shut up.

Misapplied Truth And Discernment

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Anyway, that's that's what I gotta say about it. It's good. And the thing about it is the fact is, you're right, they don't know. The problem is Job doesn't know what's going on. And so, so you know, so they're all sort of in the dark over this issue, and and so when when God does break in, he he corrects Job. He goes after Job right away. So uh you're right, it's it's it's very interesting. And um but it it just tells us so much about how to look at things because we don't always know we just don't always know the reason behind it. But it's clear that that Satan has a an agenda, and men, of course, are always on the wrong end of that agenda. And sometimes we don't realize the most the most important aspect of this is that for those of us who believe, who are believers, we understand from Job, if nothing else, that when things happen, we know that God did not leave us out there to the wolves. We know that Joe, that Satan can do nothing to us that God has not authorized that he should do. And however, and for whatever reason he does it, he overrides it for our good, which in turn results in his glory. That is what is needs to be plain and understood out of all of this, if nothing else is understood. Sister Mariah, opening remarks.

SPEAKER_06 26:20

Yeah, um, I have to say that when I before I was a believer, um I did have this sense of like thinking for I don't know, a period of of my the time that I was going through this, like I'm gonna die here. Am I gonna die here? Like, I don't know what was going on, but I had death on my mind on at all times for whatever reason. And I think that's because um, you know, as you were talking and as you were speaking, it's something that is inevitable and that we are all growing up and and it can happen at any given moment at any given time, and not having that peace and knowing that um subconsciously that you know that you have to answer to God. Um, I think it's even scarier. But um, I did read here in Psalms 90, it says that for all our days are passed away in thy wrath, we spend our years as a tell that is told yen quiet. The days of our life, uh the days of our years are three score years and ten. If by any reason of strength they will be four score years, yet so their strength labor in sorrow, for it is soon caught off and we fly away. So I think that's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yep. And them kids. I just love those. Um, Sister Meg, your opening remarks.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Hey, I'm gonna answer, I'm gonna answer like you. Good evening.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Good evening.

God’s Sovereignty Over Suffering

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Um, I I think one of my biggest takeaways from listening to Job's friends is that like, I don't know about you guys, but I'm kind of feeling that like they're they're turning true theology and true wisdom into accusation against Job. And to me, it's almost feeling like it's cruel theology. It's like using what is true about God to manipulate and put somebody under judgment. And I think from from this, from these chapters that we're reading, I'm learning that discernment is I'm so grateful for discernment because if we have truth, right, which is the word of God, and it's detached from discernment, it becomes false judgment. So when we you know read scripture and it can be twisted to become something that's true and misapplied, and henceforth a judgment against somebody that we're speaking to. And so I'm learning here to make sure that when we're talking scripture or even when we're correcting somebody, to make sure that we're discerning the scripture and rightly applying it as it should be, and not in a way that's going to judge another brother or sister, like you call it a drive-by. Right. So um it's becoming a lot more prelivent with such pass uh passages as this one.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yep, absolutely. Brother Rodney, good evening, my friend. And uh, what are your opening remarks for tonight?

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Uh good evening, everybody. Um, I'm here. I'm just um I paced through the chapter earlier, that's why I think I had an actual book because I was like, I think I had something to say. But um it's it's uh it's a lot. It's a lot for me because I have so many like touching situations that this touches on, like even going through some of my friends, like I mentioned last night. Um but just understanding, I'll I'll just say this, you know, because in my walk, I've been coming across the same thing, and it seems that everybody fears the created, but not the creator. And again, as you say, you don't have to be a scholar to grasp these things. Like it just doesn't make sense. Like, how do you fear what was created by the creator, but you don't feel the creator? So understanding that Elliphos is talking and he's like talking about God, but he hasn't really met him yet, you know? And I think kind of make sense, like use discernment in Job. And I got to think other people talking, like, you know, that's just