LIVE DISCUSSION: "God Made Me His Target" (Job 16:6-14) Part 4/4

What if the security you crave doesn’t hinge on your grip, but on God’s? We dive straight into the heart of assurance and ask the disruptive question that reshapes the whole journey: does grace come before belief, or after? Starting from God’s character—not our fluctuating resolve—we explore why the Holy Spirit does not abandon those He indwells, and how Jesus’ words “with man it is impossible” reframe salvation as God’s work from start to finish.

We share vivid testimonies—from years under a works-heavy, fear-soaked system to the relief of discovering that faith is a gift, not a gamble. Along the way, we sift clichés about “choosing God,” contrasting arbitrary preference with Spirit-opened conviction that you can’t unsee, like trying to stop believing in the color blue. Scripture anchors every step, especially Matthew 19, while the sweep of church history—from Augustine and Ambrose to the debates that shaped TULIP—shows these tensions aren’t new. They are the recurring crossroads where sovereignty meets human pride.

Together we press into a tough but freeing truth: the will makes choices, but only the Son makes you free. From Eden’s garden to Job’s trust under fire, the pattern holds—God designs, calls, and keeps. Faith is the key to God’s house, and He’s the one who places it in your hand. If you’re weary of anxious striving or confused by competing claims about election, free will, and perseverance, this conversation offers clarity, courage, and a steady place to stand.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s wrestling through assurance, and leave a review to help more listeners find a deeper rest in sovereign grace.

Transcript

Salvation Cannot Be Lost

SPEAKER_06 0:01

And if the Holy Spirit is in you, if the Holy Spirit is in you now, Him leaving you is an impossibility. It's an impossibility. And only the Christian, the Christian who says that the Spirit of God can live within a person, and that person can lose their salvation, the Christian that says that, let me tell you, let me put it to you bluntly. The Christian that says that is a fool.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

And the Spirit of God is in no one who can say that.

SPEAKER_06 0:45

We need to understand who our God is. Job understands the nature of his Lord, and we understand the nature of our Lord. We know he reigns supreme. We know he is, we know him as El Shaddai. Christ's name means I am salvation. J-E, I am S-U-S, salvation. What is he to us? He is our salvation. That's what he is. That's who he is. And when you know that, it gives you all the comfort you will ever need to carry you through every trial, no matter how egregious they may be. Trust in him and him alone and never let go of him. Now, last words for the night.

God’s Nature And Sovereignty

SPEAKER_08 2:09

Well, I was just thinking about what you were just saying, your comments. Um the people that claim Christ and yet say, yeah, they can um they can turn and uh you know leave, which puts their will above God.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Right.

SPEAKER_08 2:28

So right there, I mean, but what what would you say about those who say this? We have free will to choose God. I mean, I I believe they're the same, but I'm just asking your opinion. Um, we have the free will to choose God, but once we choose Him, we can't lose our salvation.

SPEAKER_06 2:50

Well, here's the thing here's what I ask Here's what I ask people when they say that, and it's funny you asked that because I posted something asking that very question. So when somebody says, I have the free will to choose God, here's my question. When you chose God, did grace precede that choice, or did grace follow after? You see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_08 3:19

Did you get responses? Yeah, did you get responses? No. I'd be interested.

SPEAKER_06 3:22

No. Yeah, of course. No, yeah. They don't. You know, somebody, oh, I'm confused by that question. What is what are you confused about? If you if you choose the Lord, then there's one or two things, because we know that we know that grace is a gift from God. We know that faith is a gift from God. All right? So if you chose God, did grace precede that choice, you making that choice, or did grace come after? And when you think and if you sit back and think about that question, think about the answer to that question, it should be one of them kind of things where when you recite it in your mind, you can only come up with one answer. You can only come up with one answer. If you want to make the case that you have if you want to make the case that you have free will, does your free will um give you the grace? Is it your free will that that gets you the grace?

SPEAKER_08 4:25

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

You see what I mean?

Grace Or Choice First

SPEAKER_08 4:28

It makes it puts their will above God. So yeah. Yeah, um yeah, it's really super frustrating. So I I've I've just again I've quit. You know, you you can just post things that are true, and there are, in fact, I I I saw a post today, and there were literally twenty or more verses to support election in in in the new tet in the new testament. Um, and you go back and read it and to to try to dispute that, even find one verse, one verse that says, please choose me or choose God. I mean, and then you know, I could be quite you can't find one verse. I mean, over and over in the New Testament, and then again in the old testament. I mean, David speaks, you know, you are my salvation, Job here. You know, you you know what I mean? Um, it's it's it's truly they haven't been given the eyes to see.

Scripture And Election Claims

SPEAKER_06 5:40

And they haven't. They haven't. And so, you know, and and and I'll tell you something. I believe that this is a very um, I believe this whole thing has is is very anti-Christian. And and and you know, you do look, if I told you what I felt about some of these things, you guys would probably never come on here again. Because it's, you know, people don't understand the significance of these of these of these lies, these heresies. And I call them the heresies. Like I mentioned the other day that I'm posting these little history things on on my on my profile uh about the church fathers and the you know the previous you know theologians that that are responsible for why we believe the things that we believe today. And uh, and a reason why one reason why I do that, not only for not only for educational purposes, but well, it is for educational purposes, but it's also so that you recognize that what you hear today is not new. It's not new. This conversation that we have about losing your salvation and and God's grace and the origins of sin and depravity, I mean, this goes all the way back to Augustine and and and Ambrose and fighting against Pelagius and Zosimos. I mean, there's a lot of history that you that that that you that you could understand. But I would bore you to death get into the history. I love it, but I want more of you to understand it because you will realize that none of this stuff we're hearing is new. None of it's new. These guys are always running around screaming their heads off, oh, that's Calvinism. They don't even know what Calvinism is. But if they knew anything about the origins of it, they will know that they will know that what has been termed Calvinism under the acronym TULIP was a response to the five points of Arminianism. And and they called it that to give it a name. But they were responding to the five points of Arminianism. And maybe one day we'll have a broader discussion about that. But basically, if you take what that acronym says and and do and and uh and extrapolate from it the exact opposite of what is being said, you will see what the position of Arminianism was. You're not dead in sin and trespasses, you're just sort of sin sick. God didn't choose, you chose, and then he looks down and sees that you choose, so he chooses you because of what you did. Then you have the universal atonement. Everybody is, you know, everybody is safe. There's no election, you know, and it goes on and on and on. But most people don't talk from a standpoint, from a standpoint of actually knowing anything, they just feel something or they've been told something, and pride and hubris will not allow them to consider things in a logical context and try to reason these things through. So they end up just fighting and bickering and never coming to any rational conclusions about anything. But the reality is, if you understand the nature of God, there are certain things that must be true. If God is absolutely 100% sovereign in all things, then there's no possible way that salvation is not the result of sovereign election. It's impossible. So you either believe that God is absolutely sovereign, or you believe that he start started creation and then took his hands off the off the steering wheel and off the gas and just left and just was waiting to see what happens. Then that would be Darwinism. That would be survival of the fittest. The smart ones will be saved. We'll see what man does. It's just an experiment. But when you start from the nature of God, which is what Job understands, start from that, that that that is what will make you understand why it must why things must be the way that they are. Especially and in particular when it comes to man and their salvation. Nobody's getting into God's house without a key. And that key is faith. And that faith, that key, is a key he gives you. You don't just throw out your keys to your house in the middle of the street and tell people, welcome in. No. God gives that key to a special elect people, and it's his family. Nobody has keys to your house but your family. And it's the same with God's house. Same with his house. Brother Pat, go ahead.

SPEAKER_09 11:05

You know, Sister Lisa, something happened last night, and I feel like it was meant for you. Um, I was in a room after our Bible study uh yesterday, and I've been talking for months on and off with a woman who's been really damaged. She's been stuck in a very culty, works-based religion, and she's been beaten up and she's tormented. She's lived in a living hell of religion, uh, just in a constant state of fear her whole life. And so some months ago, I started having conversations with her and introducing the doctrines of grace to her, and it is changing her life. God is working in her life and working miracles. Well, she comes in last night, and like clockwork, the devil sends in a couple of his cronies, right, to tell her that what I'm telling her is all lies, and we need to we need to choose to believe. And I'm gonna point out, I'm gonna tell you what I told her, Lisa, because there's a little nuance that a lot of people miss that once you see it, you'll never unsee it. I told what I told her is we're not when we use this word believe, we use them in different ways. We don't mean the same thing as belief as as some other religious people do. I'm gonna do a thought experiment with you, sister Lisa. I want you to choose to stop believing in the color blue right now. Can you do it? Or here's another one. I want you to stop believing that your parents never existed. Can you do it? No, because there's a belief that is based upon an experience and you know it. It's not a choice. You have no choice in the matter. You that's true belief. So, what these religious people are talking about when they believe, they're talking about arbitrary belief. That's like what somebody on the street tells you a story, you have no clue if it's true or not, and you just choose. You don't have any evidence either way, and well, I guess I believe them, or they don't seem trustworthy, or I don't believe them. Do you see how they have relegated saving faith to arbitrary uh decision, and they think that God rewards that with salvation somehow? You see the difference? Yes, our belief, we know, and we can't unbelieve because we've experienced it. There's no choice in the matter. He's opened our eyes, we've lived it, we know him.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_09 13:42

And once you know God, there's no unknowing God.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

Amen, brother.

SPEAKER_09 13:48

So I I just wanted to point that out that when they use the word belief, choose to believe, they don't they're not using that word in the same way the Bible uses that word.

SPEAKER_06 14:00

Right. Amen, brother Pat. Amen. Brother Rod, last word for tonight, brother.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Uh I'm kind of uh stuck. No, I'm not really I got it. I won't, I don't I'm not gonna be making long. Um, it's kind of a part of my testimony a little bit, just like um me like walking away from just everything and just follow my place because I had part of my testimony is I had got um this far from the capacity from due to behavior issues, but I kind of really didn't know if it was just from me at that point, but that's what I'm feeling I'm looking back and I'm like, okay. The point I'm making is that I'm understanding that you know, you've got issues because I'm giving the life back. He never turns back on me even then, you know, even when I walked away, you know, even giving the life back to bed. He's still there because I had a lot of situations, you know, we all have. Um but now it's just like, you know, he's just like I'm gonna give you clarity and clarification, you know, through everything, even this church, you know, and everything that's happening. As long as I believe where I'm gonna apply right now, because that's been the best scripture that I can stand before and believe in that. He is the Lord and Saving, you know, everything is forgiven and all that. So I'm also understanding that if I stay with him, he, you know, we have my back and everything that I do, you know. So I think that's kind of where I got from the scripture tonight.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

So amen, brother. Glad to hear it, man.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Um, Sister Mariah, last word.

Church History And TULIP

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Um, just from um what you just said, I think that a lot of people would not like me either if I fully expressed um how I felt about the sovereignty of God or um the salvation uh or salvivic part of um our salvation and where we stand. And if I don't think anybody can straddle a fence, and I don't think I I just see it plain as black and white in the scriptures that we're either saved or we're not saved. We're children of wrath or we're children of God. And I just don't get how people intellectually cannot understand that we are not born by our own will, but it is God who has uh gifted us life here today. The reason why I'm standing and speaking to you is got because God willed me to foresee the nine months in my mom's womb and to come out and likewise he does the same for us for our spiritual birth. It is him who gives life in him alone. So to think that I think it's just arrogant for people to think that they have any hand and in life itself when it's obviously can your life, you you cannot say whether you'll be here today or tomorrow, or you know, by the end of today or tomorrow. And I think it really put it in perspective when he said you could you cannot even add another second to your life if you wield it, you know. So I I just I I tried to keep my mouth shut um because I know that some people aren't in that um range of maturity to comprehend it. Um, but I just think that it's a foolish thing to say that you believe in God, yet you contradict his promises and what he has said.

SPEAKER_06 17:59

Amen, sister. It it is, and and you know, and and the funny thing is that people always go, well, you know, you know, I you know, the Holy Spirit told me this, or I just I just read the Word of God. That's all, you know, they they play that little role. Um, but very few people know how to reason through the scriptures. And this is something that I really, really want to encourage with everybody to really get into the word of God, you know, and and to really understand how these things, how things are aligned, because it's very true. I mean, when Christ says, Christ is asked point blank in Matthew 19, right? In Matthew 19, he says this, or it says this, when the disciples heard it, verse 25, they were exceedingly amazed, and they said, then they asked a question. They they asked the Lord Jesus Christ this question, who then can be saved? Now they just got to be talking about how hard it is for a rich man to enter to the kingdom of heaven. And then Christ said, What he says is easier for a camel, and we all know the rest of that story. So then they say to him, Well, who then can be saved? They point blank ask him the question and then listen to what he says with men, it is impossible. This is impossible. It's impossible. Now, how do you align the free will of man when it comes to salvation when Jesus Christ says, when asked the question, who then can be saved? And then he responds by saying, with men, it is impossible. And then he follows up with saying, But with God, all things are possible, which means that nothing when it comes to salvation is possible without God. And without him, it's impossible. So if men believes, if men, Christians run around here telling everybody that I'm a demon, I'm a false prophet, me. I'm a demon, I'm a false prophet, because I'm telling people that you can't do it. You don't have a free will not to believe, not to be saved.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

You are free to choose whatever thing you want to choose.

Sovereignty Versus Human Autonomy

SPEAKER_06 20:22

But being saved, Jesus Christ could not say it was impossible if you had a free will that was possible to give you salvation. And that's why I asked the question uh in response to Lisa's question. If you say you you you know you have to exercise your free will, my question is, well, did grace precede that choice or did grace come after? And if you can be saved by the exercise or the exertion of the freedom of your will, or by the freedom of your will, and grace comes after, then what is the point in needing grace at that point? And if the grace preceded the exertion of you exercising or the exertion of your free will toward salvation, then you can't say your will was free because you needed grace in order to do it. Either way it goes you're facing a very serious quandary in your theological assessment, and it's false. Christ said how it is possible to get saved. He said, and he said that it is only possible with God, which means that whatever you you want to define your free will is, go for it. But what it won't do is save you. That's what it won't do. That I can tell you as an unequivocal fact. So when anyone asks you a question or tell you about their freedom. Of will and they make their case. All of you listen to me right now. Write this verse down. Matthew 19, 25, and 26. There's no way around this. It doesn't say with the Jews is impossible, or with the Gentiles, it's impossible, or with people of this day and age, it's impossible. No, Christ says very clear, with men it is impossible. I'm sorry, I get I get a little excited about this subject. Brother Jeffrey, last word for tonight.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

And Job is in the process of learning that right now, even though he doesn't understand. Eventually he will. And the world has that exactly backwards. They think they can change God or redefine God into being something other than what he is, which they cannot. But they still falsely believe that. So again, spending time in his word, spending time with him, gives us that opportunity to get to know his character and his uh his uh righteousness that much better. So that's where we need to be tonight.

SPEAKER_06 23:56

So amen, brother. Father, thank you. Go ahead, Sister Candy, and then I think Savannah, and I think that's it. I think I got everybody at that point. Uh, Sister Candy, last word for tonight.

SPEAKER_07 24:08

Well, when I got through doing and came back up, I was gonna play devil's advocate, but a lot of spoke, so there's no need in me doing that now. But I think the free will part, even though there's a choice of surrendering and not choosing after hearing the word, is where people believe that they have a free will. But in the end, it's the will of God. Jesus came to do the will of the Father. If we are in Jesus and He's given us the Word, and we've cried out to Him and want Him to come into our lives and save us, to heal us, take from us what could cause us to die. Unalive, I'm sorry, F1, whatever. But you know where I'm going with it. Y'all know the scriptures, we all know the scriptures, right? But it still boils down to people thinking because they have a choice even after hearing. And even in Joshua, even in Joshua, when he says, you know, I'm not gonna go get into it, but Joshua 24. He says, We we choose, me and my house will choose to follow the Lord. I think a lot of it comes from certain scriptures, and once again, as we know, get twisted, and they take it and they apply it to exactly what you're talking about in Matthew 19. And that is, man can't do it. And brother, brother Jeffrey, he just spoke about people changing. Man can't change ourselves. So no matter what the choice is, just like God when when God, when Jesus, when the talent was given to the guy with the talent, he did nothing with it. He didn't do anything with it. That was his choice to go hide it. So I'm I'm I'm seeing more and more where people are taking the free will that we supposedly have, but it's not a free will, and it's a free will to die unalive in the end. In for yeah, there's no eternal life in it.

SPEAKER_06 26:19

Well, I'm waiting, I'm still waiting, sister. I'm still waiting for somebody to find in the scripture and show it to me because that's something nobody could ever do. And not even if it's inferred. So, no, so you're right, you're right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 26:30

I mean, it even says uh it's all over, like you said, just get into the word and and and and seek it from the Lord, man. Seek seek the understanding because that's where it all comes from, anyway. Amen, sister, and those who he puts in your path to help us understand. Yep.

SPEAKER_09 26:45

Jonathan, can can I say something? Uh do you mind?

SPEAKER_07 26:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_09 26:48

Well, I I want to know free will, free from what? Yeah, what what are we talking about here? Free from sin? Free from your nature, free from God, right? Free from what? Somebody explain that to me.

The Key Of Faith And God’s House

SPEAKER_06 27:03

So here's here's you know, this is this is another another one of my responses that I make to this whole thing when people talk about their free will. Well, John 8, Christ talks about that the Son will set you free. The Son will set you free. So if if the Lord Jesus Christ is the one who sets you free, then if you like you said, Brother Pat, if you have a free, if you have a free will, then in what sense does the son make you free? What does he make you free from? Like you said, like you just said. So if Christ is the one who can make you free indeed, and you had a free will before being set free by him, then in what sense were you free prior to this? And what did he free you from, and what did he free you to? So all of it is just nonsense. Because, and and this comes from a misunderstanding about understanding the nature of man, and the thing that causes people to slip up is misunderstanding two things: the nature of God and the nature of man. He is all life, and we are all dead until he gives us the resurrection of our souls, of our spirit, gives us new life. He doesn't patch up a wound, he raises a dead man. That's what he does, Sister Savannah. Your last word. And Pat, if you don't mind closing out for us, I would appreciate it, brother.

Testimony Of Being Kept By God

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Um so yeah, when I think about free will, I I always go, it always sends me back to Adam and Eve, right? Like, it always makes me think about like why would God um you know put the tree there in the first place, even though he knew that Adam or that Eve, you know, that Adam and Eve would be deceived, right? So, but it it just reveals something beautiful about God is that um like he was like he respects our freedom of choice because like without our choice, right, it wouldn't be uh without our choice to have faith to believe in him, it wouldn't be a true love. But also, like you were saying, like God is truly sovereign. So, like, you know, I kind of try to think of it like um, like for example, if I offer my kid a cookie and broccoli, obviously I know I know what my kid is gonna choose. You know, my child is obviously gonna choose a cookie over broccoli, so it's like he already knows every every single choice that we are going to make, which brings me back to the verse, um, you know, uh, you can go left or right, but I will direct your path. So, yes, you know, God is a gentleman and he respects our our choice, but at the same time, uh like God's will is above everything. That's how I view it.

Spiritual Birth And God’s Will

SPEAKER_06 30:20

Well, you got a good view, you got a good view about it, and and and I know that as days and years and and it go on, you know, you're gonna be able to refine the way you express it. And I and I think there's because I think I really think there's lots of Christians who who who understand it and believe it, but sometimes trying to, you know, um present it in a way um that where it makes it fluid in commun when you communicate to someone else, it can be tough. It can be tough. But over time, you get you you exercise that. Now it's interesting that that when you talk about Adam and Eve, that tree was already there. The tree was already there. Now, people will say, well, they were made perfect and upright, right? And that they had no sin, and that's true, but they were also not made infallible, they could fall, and that's evidence because they actually did. Now, here's what I'll say the tree was always there, and there were always many, a multiplicity of trees, so the choices were already there. All the myriad choices that a man can make, they're all there. What the problem that so many people have is conflating the will with the choices that the will can make. And what the most of the what most of this unbelieving Christian world holds to is that choices implies freedom of will. Nothing tempted them about that tree until they re got until they got the temptation. So what happened when God told them to not eat from that tree? Suddenly, they had a bias. Suddenly, there was nothing indifferent about their choices. They built, they they they acquired a bias. When she was tempted, when Adam and Eve were tempted, they suddenly were moved to do something that was contrary to their design. And for whatever reason, it was God's design for it to happen. Christ was a lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This was the beginning of that, of putting that whole process in motion, even though, as I said, he was slain before the foundation of the world. This was in the divine mind for all of eternity for this event to take place, which means that all these things that did happen needed to happen, and they were ordered and designed by God to happen. Yes, even the fall was by God's design. It was by his design that Adam and Eve would fall. And this would be the beginning of the process whereby God is shaping the relationship throughout the future that would be established between himself and man. How we explain these things, we don't have the wisdom for that type of intricacy. We just don't have it. But what we can say, if we know who God is, we have to we have to rest in the fact that He did it all. And I mean all of it. There was nothing left to chance whatsoever. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And Job understood that. He understood that. And so we'll close there. And uh, brother Pat, if you wouldn't mind closing, greatly appreciate it, brother.

SPEAKER_09 34:49

Brother, I can't get an internet connection. Oh, wait, I think I got it. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_06 34:54

We hear you fine, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_09 34:57

Go for it. God is good. I had no connection, and the minute I started talking to tell you I couldn't pray, uh, it came back. Praise God. All right, let's let's let's join me in prayer. Our Heavenly Father, we thank you so much for our time together tonight, Lord. We thank you for your spirit uh teaching us your your sacred word, Lord, and we pray that you you continue to give us hearts that are open to being taught by you, Lord, so that these teachings can take hold, that we might be enlightened and be used as blessings to bless the world, Lord. Um Lord, I thank you for the gift of each other. It's such a blessing to be amongst your people, Lord, and you brought us together uh to rejoice in your world, and we live in all sorts of corners of the world and your and your family. It's everywhere, Lord, and it we just thank you for that gift of love and unity, Lord. Um, we pray, Lord, that you make our lives count, that we we learn from this this book of Job, Lord, and that we learn to suffer well and be faithful to you, Lord, and trust you, even in the eye of the storm, Lord, that we know who you are, what you have done, and what you will do, Lord. We thank you for everything that you have done for us and everything that you will do for us, Lord. We praise your name in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

Amen. Thank you, brother, Pat. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

All right, what are we baby there? You guys, it's time. Say goodnight.

SPEAKER_08 36:42

Good night, baby. Good night, good night.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Hallelujah.

Matthew 19: Salvation Is Impossible For Man

SPEAKER_05 36:52

All right, love you. Good night, babies. I love you.

SPEAKER_06 37:00

You guys have a good night. It's been a really good, it's been a really good study. Lisa, you got my head turning tonight, sister. Good work. Good work.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Wait a minute, Grace's children wanted to say good night, too.

SPEAKER_08 37:12

Because I'm the pinky toe, man. I'm on the pinky toe.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

Was never right. Was ever right?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Grace's children are trying to say goodnight too.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Okay, Grace is here.

SPEAKER_05 37:32

Well, see, Grace, now you're in trouble because now I need you have you here every night just like a hearing kids say goodnight. God bless you. Have a great night, but a great night, everybody.

SPEAKER_08 37:43

Good night, good night, good night. Good night, it's gonna be a good one.