LIVE DISCUSSION: Anthony Rogers - Sovereignty of God (Part 3/5)

Start with the ache: mass graves in history, abuse scandals in headlines, and courts that seem to sleep. Now ask the question beneath the outrage—on what ground do we call any of it truly evil? We dive straight into the heart of the problem of evil and trace a path that is honest about pain and clear about hope. Together we unpack why moral outrage presumes a real standard, why the image of God gives victims unshakable worth, and why denying God dissolves justice into noise. From Romans 12 and 13, we explore how personal vengeance gives way to trust in God’s final judgment while still insisting that the state punish wrongdoers. That confidence is not a sedative; it’s the spine that resists vigilante chaos and fuels patient, courageous pursuit of the good.

We also talk about what sovereignty actually means for daily life. Think of common grace as the guardrails that keep human depravity from racing off the cliff—and of hardening as the fearful moment those restraints are lifted. Pharaoh’s story becomes a window into divine decree and human choice, where God never injects evil yet judges by handing people over to their loves. Then we turn to the cross, the sharpest paradox in history: the worst evil ever committed became the greatest good ever given. Jesus, accused as a blasphemer and insurrectionist, endured the shame we deserved, and God brought life from that death. If God can redeem that, he can weave purpose through our darkest turns.

Along the way, we share lived stories of providence—small hinges that swung big doors—and hard-earned lessons from prison ministry where quiet, lasting change tells a better story than quick statistics. If you’ve wrestled with suffering, justice, or the sovereignty of God, this conversation offers clarity without clichés and hope without denial. If it resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s asking hard questions, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your thoughts matter—what part challenged you most?

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:02

Brother Jeff, man of guy. Go ahead.

War, Crusades, And God’s Goodness

Death, Sin, And Human Destiny

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I just want to make a comment. You know, there are some things that are inexplicable. And certainly I'm with Brother Anthony. I mean, God is sovereign. I mean, and I rest on that. I trust in it. I believe in it. And the thing is, I mean, you know, you can't explain why close to 20 million people were killed in World War II, six million of them were Jews. You can't see the immediate uh point in all that. And what God doesn't do, he allows. We know that. We accept that. And but what we have is the trust that he, by his nature and his attributes, is good. He is light. And he has a plan for humanity that everything that happens is working towards the fulfillment of that plan. And that's all sometimes all you can do. I mean, look at the crusades. I mean, on the face of it, it seems like a good thing, but it was horrible. The first crusade, when they took Jerusalem, they massacred everybody, Christians and Jews and Arabs. You know, it's it it man takes things and makes them horrible. God allows things for his own purposes, and sometimes he doesn't tell us why. But he is to be praised. I trust in him, and that's where it stands with me.

SPEAKER_06 1:24

Yeah, you know what, one of the things you made me think of is you know, some we're we're very short-sighted, right? So you mentioned 20 million people dying in World War II. And I'm thinking, you know what? That's what scripture says. It's it's not merely that 20 million, 20 million died then, but everybody in all of human history has died, right? Even apart from you know, there's other ways they've died, and and that's going to be the history of the world until the coming of Christ, right? So uh when people bring up these big numbers, which they do with us, right? They they try to bring them up to say how terrible this is, we readily grant, right, this is this is what all men are appointed to. Every single person in human history has been appointed to death, short of those that are alive at Christ's coming. Uh and that's because man sinned against God. And so whenever we see any period in history where this person is killed or this large group of people, all that is, is just a reminder that this is the way of all the earth precisely because we sinned against God. And so the question, the fundamental question is does man deserve death? And according to scripture, man clearly does. And so nobody can complain when when God brings it about or how he brings it about. It's it's uh all grace that common grace that anybody's still alive. I mean, I I marvel, you know, the people often marvel at uh, you know, they they they have trouble with evil. Right? What why does why does why do bad things happen to people? And I think to myself, why do good things happen? I I think we're we're approaching this the wrong way. We don't deserve any good at the hand of God. Amen, brother. Right? The fact that there's a human race after Adam, it all should have ended right there. I mean, honestly, think about it. God made a creature from the dust of the ground, and that creature had the audacity to defy him. God, God should have wiped him out, and there should be no more human history. End of story. Amen, brother. Sister Lisa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 3:32

Ask Brother Anthony what you want to ask.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Hi, Brother Anthony. Um this is basically I um it's kind of it's it's not rhetorical. I I I kind of would like some advice on what to say to people when they're making an argument that God himself must be wicked to allow, let's say, what's going on in that we that we're coming that's coming to light with the Epstein violence and these children and horrific um you know, those types of things. And yet there are there are no no one being no one is being prosecuted. Um and you know, I I I am in agreement with what you just said. We are we are wicked, and you, you know, why why does God do anything good? But you have people who are genuinely um not at a place where they just can or they're not at a place where they just trust the Lord. And they'll come up and and they'll say these things and um and I get I get what where they're coming from because I I feel the pain with regards to those kinds of things as well. So what would what would you say if someone came up to you as you're preaching the goodness of God and they said, Well, well, if God is so good, what kind of God allows this? And yet the men walk free and they're still, you know, you know what I mean?

Moral Outrage And The Need For God

Vengeance, The State, And Final Judgment

Faith Amid Suffering And Hidden Fruit

SPEAKER_06 5:16

Yeah, whatever. So there's several several things I would say here. First of all, if if somebody's objecting to God being God, God existing, and so forth on the grounds that these terrible things are happening and these things look like evidence that he's not there and doesn't care, or something along those lines. Well, we have to reevaluate everything in that light. It's not like God could exist or not exist and everything else would be the same. If God does not exist, the terrible things that happen aren't really terrible. I mean, just think it through for a moment. I know that we recoil at it, but that's because we do know that God exists and we know all those other things that are true because of that. So if God does not exist, there's no ultimate standard of evil according to which we can measure this. There's just stuff that happens in a in a chance universe. Okay, what grounds do we have for complaining about how things have happened in a universe that's just the product of chance? It's all sound and fury signifying nothing, as Shakespeare said. Secondly, the people that these things have happened to that we're we're so concerned about, justly, they would just be random products of a mindless process of evolution that eventuated in talking things. Everybody would just be, you know, I remember so my father-in-law, uh though although he's Jewish, he's he's agnostic, and he'd often will would tell me, you know, when he dies, it's all over, just throw him in the trash can. And I would say to him, with all the love I have, I'd say, Dave, his name's Dave, I'd say, why do I have to wait until you die to throw you in the trash can? And my my point is, you're smuggling something in here. If you're saying that there is no God and when you die, it's all over, and and you know you're you're worthless and just throw you away, why it why are you assuming that you're important right now? Right? Did you do that with your mother? What did you do when your mother died? You gave her an honorable burial, right? Because you know better. You know that your mother bears the image of God. You know that your mother has a value, which is why you treat her this way. And so the reason we're outraged when we see this sort of thing is precisely because we think those are image bearers. And if we don't think that, then at the end of the day, we've lost any grounds for complaining at what happened to them, right? But now think about this how is objecting to God uh a answer to this issue? Because the the thing that you said that caught my attention before was like there are people the people that did this, that perpetrated this aren't being held accountable, right? Well, on the supposition that God does not exist, they're never going to be held accountable. It's only in Christianity that you have the assurance that they are going to be held accountable. Now, in scripture, God tells civil rulers to punish lawbreakers, but we always have this underlying assurance that if they don't, God will. And God will hold civil rulers accountable, right? So I you know, I always think to myself, you know, what is it you think you're achieving if you're railing against God by saying, you know, he's not there because these people aren't being punished. You're basically saying they're never going to be punished. And think about what then ensues from this. This is what ultimately generates acts of mob rioting. And it's because people don't have confidence that God will judge. Remember what Paul says in Romans 12. He's talking to individuals, not the state, but he says, don't render to any man evil for evil, leave room for God's wrath. It's God's to repay, right? Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. Now, in the next chapter, Paul goes on to say that the civil magistrate has been given authority from God to execute his vengeance on lawbreakers. But the point is that you as an individual can, although it's hard, you can be a uh, you know, somebody who's experienced an atrocity and not engage in lawlessness in response because you know that God is going to hold somebody accountable. Now, somebody who doesn't know that God's going to hold somebody accountable and they don't see their rulers executing God's judgment, that's where they begin to have unrest. And now they want to start doing things that produce chaos and everything else, right? That's what happens. That's where you get vigilante justice. And sometimes, you know, vigilante justice ends up not being justice because they they think somebody did it and they didn't really do it, they didn't investigate, right? It all just descends into chaos. So I I understand when people are put out by the terrible things that have happened and when they don't see justice happening speedily, but they're not doing themselves a service or getting away from the reality of God's existence so long as they're holding on to the fact that something's really evil, because you need a standard by which to measure it, and and you can't assume the value of these people if they're just you know, sound and fury, you know, signifying nothing, and you can't leave it in God's hands if you don't think he's gonna ultimately finally judge people for what they do.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Wow, thank you.

SPEAKER_07 10:44

Anyone else? All right, brother.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, I I'd like to say something. Um, because uh someone said something sort of along the lines of this earlier, um, because somebody else was asking them a question, like, you know, basically what Lisa was asking, you know, about other people is like that how can um you know someone believe in a God that lets, you know, all these that allows all these terrible things to happen. And um he had a great answer. Um like so like what if an unbeliever is right, he had a great answer to that is like um we can just say like you know, I truly I don't know why God does some some things, you know, he's God, and um I trust in him that even though it may seem terrible and awful, but I trust in him that that terrible and awful thing um will turn out to be a good thing because my God is a good God, and just and I think in my opinion that just like just that it can be an act of faith, right? We're trusting in God that um that terrible thing can turn out and to be something good, and just by saying that to someone else can you know plant a seed in their in their heart, maybe, you know, because they might be thinking, wow, this person, like what a you know, they have such faith in something like that, you know. I hope that makes sense.

The Cross: Ultimate Evil And Ultimate Good

Can Christians Reject God’s Sovereignty

SPEAKER_06 12:27

Yeah, and I uh you know, I think it it would help too, uh, and this is where we can you know get better at things to remember things in your own experience where this we don't always know why something happened, but sometimes we do see the fruit of it, right? Not all not always. Uh one of my favorite uh missionaries in in all of history, his name was Samuels Weymer. This guy was a powerful individual, but he he went out onto the mission field for 50 years into a hostile context. He was a missionary for 50 years. He would come back to America uh every year to uh stir up people to go out onto the mission field. Well, at the end of 50 years, laboring in Muslim countries, he could only tell you that of 12 people who profess faith in Christ as a result of his labors. Now, most people would see this and this say, well, obviously the Lord's not using me here. But what happened, remember, I said he would come back to America and tell people to go out into the mission field. Because of his undaunting courage and all of his sacrifice and everything else, he was such an inspiration that more people went out onto the mission field because of him than any other person in church history. So it's pretty remarkable. So now when you think about it, he only saw 12 people come to faith through his ministry. But now what he didn't foresee are all these people that went out onto the mission field and the countless hordes that are that are professing faith in Christ because he stirred these people up to that. So we can think, you know, there are all kinds of stuff or things that will will happen down the road that we don't foresee that God's going to bring out of what's happened. And that's where you know we we should be able to exercise faith that he can do that. But we we will have instances in our own experience where we can see what God was doing. You know, we we do get a little bit of a glimpse, right? So uh I mean I I could give you examples in my own case, but I my my whole point here is just to encourage you to say, you know, I remember this one thing that happened to me. It looked really terrible. It was uh it was very difficult at the time. And now that I look back, I think, my goodness, if that didn't happen, this wouldn't have happened. And here we are, and I'm so happy that we're here, you know, uh because there are countless providences like that, you know, small and big. Uh let me uh you know, I I I mentioned earlier that I was converted through a self-well, not converted through him or anything, but God used a devil worshiper to challenge me to read the Bible because he thought I would see it and dislike the God of the Bible, and I became a Christian. God's using this devil in these bad circumstances to bring me to faith. You know, my mom could have been thinking, why is this happening to me? I was a good mother, my son's in jail, right? But I ended up becoming a Christian to this day. And so her mother doesn't have a son who's dead. You know, I didn't die uh 30 years ago, I didn't continue in a life of crime, you know. But initially it had to be painful. I'm sure my mother cried every night when I was in jail. You know what I mean? So so we we can, if we think about things like this, you know, it can help. You know, uh it gives a concrete example for people. And then, of course, never forget the you know, the the example of Jesus, that there's no more horrendous act. Uh you you you think about it. Jesus enjoyed from all eternity perfect fellowship with the Father in a way that goes beyond what's possible for any creature. When remember when Moses said to God, Show me your glory, that'll be sufficient. God told Moses, you can't, Moses. That's that's just beyond your ability. But God did give him a glimpse of his receding glory, as it was. And but uh Jesus, it says in John 1, it says he's uh in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the the language indicates he's he's face to face with him, you know, uh from all eternity. And when they spoke the the angels into existence from that time forward, the seraphim had been crying out ceaselessly day and night, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. So from perfect fellowship with the Father to the ceaseless praise of the angelic choir, then Jesus descended from heaven, took on our nature, and he's being ridiculed and mocked and spit upon. And uh there's nothing more horrendous than that. Uh one of the things I I've often thought about is because I I you know I'm trying to I'm trying to think what it would have been like for Jesus. And I I know that I can never fully put myself in his shoes, but as best I could, here's here's the way I've thought about this before. I'm I'm a minister, I uh am an ordained pastor, I serve in churches and in mostly in prison. Uh, and I think, you know, what would be one of the most difficult trials I could possibly go through? And it would be being falsely accused of some horrendous thing that I didn't do. Okay, imagine being in that situation if you know your whole identity, you're a pastor, you're a Christian, and you're being told you're every hideous, wicked, evil thing. And you can understand that people think if you did that you are wicked, right? Uh and I thought about that and I'm like, man, that would be that would be brutal. That would be really brutal to be to be thought of as let's just say the Epstein stuff, right? Imagine being accused of that and you didn't do it. Well, Jesus was accused of uh all the horrendous evils that he was dying for. The the uppermost thing that would have most scandalized Jesus is being accused of being a blasphemer. Okay, Jesus loved his father from all eternity, a perfect love. And he's being told that the one whom he loved beyond our ability to love, he's being told he blasphemed him. That's what Jesus is dying for. So uh, you know, that's what Jesus endured, and scripture tells us this is our very salvation. So there's nothing more horrendous than Jesus being killed, and yet there's nothing more glorious than that Jesus was killed, because by it God has rescued us. So there's a perfect example that he brings evil from good or good from evil.

Divine Decree, Human Choice, And Restraint

SPEAKER_07 18:59

The other thing about that that that I find very astounding is that the Lord Jesus Christ, his his big crime, you know, among the many, but the big one was that he was seditious. He was an insurrectionist. Now can you imagine being the son of God, God Almighty, being accused of your by your creation of sedition? And then releasing a guy who actually was arrested for sedition. And his name just happens to be Son of the Father, you know, Barabbas. And it's and it's really, and like you said, it's really a profound thing when you look at all those aspects. The blasphemy of it, the you know, the the that he was accused of, and then him also being accused of sedition, and not even under, and then having it be considered a capital crime, not under Jewish law, but they were able to convince Rome to condemn him under their law, even though they were reluctant to do it. And then went to them and said, Listen, the surrect the insurrection, the seditious acts that he's doing is not against us. It's against you. So by your law he should die. And now everybody is part of it. Everybody is guilty in this crime. Jew and Gentile alike, all in it. And I and I just think it's like, like you said, it's it's the most magnificent event to ever take place in human history. It's the most glorious event and the most heinous event at the same exact time. At the same exact time. And and I and I think that we will go through eternity without never understanding the fullness of the glory of that event. It will take eternity to get a glimpse of it. To get a glimpse of it. And it is is astounding. Uh Mariah had a question for you. Mariah and then uh Meg.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, I just wanted to ask or um see your thoughts on uh someone who professes to be a Christian, but has a problem with the sovereignty of God, and saying, you know, how is it that uh their God in whom they believe to be uh good, perfect, light, and not love, and all these things, um, if he was to do that, then they don't think that they would find. Such a God, do you think that these people who have an issue with the sovereignty of God are true believers, or that maybe they're deceived in some type of way, or what are your thoughts?

Common Grace And Hardened Hearts

SPEAKER_06 22:14

Yeah. So so first of all, I would distinguish between those who are ignorant, they're professing Christians, but they're ignorant of what Scripture says here, or not sufficiently informed. Maybe they have some of the biblical data, but not enough. Maybe it hasn't been articulated to them clearly enough. I would distinguish between people of that sort and those who have been acquainted with these things and are not just wrestling with them, but altogether hostile towards them. That's a very different thing. I would be fearful, I'm not going to pronounce a final judgment or anything, but I you know I would be fearful in that case because it's the natural man, according to scripture, who's at enmity with God. Romans 8 says it's the mind of the natural man is hostile towards God. It doesn't submit to him, nor will, nor will it do so. It's basically in revolt, right? It's in rebellion. And so I shudder when I hear people say I'd never serve a God like that. And I'm saying, I'm thinking to myself, well, that's the only God there is. There's no, right? The God who is is the one who made the world. The world wouldn't exist if he didn't will it into being. The world would not still be existing if he did not continue to will to uphold it. And nobody, I mean, think think about it, God knows everything. Everybody grants that if they're a Christian. I mean, there are some that think they can deny it, but that's just never been a part of any Christian uh understanding. Everybody grants that God knows everything, which means the evil that somebody is going to do, at the very least, God knows it, and He's sustaining them. They wouldn't continue to exist, breathe, you know, and their heart wouldn't beat.

unknown 24:06

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Prison Ministry, Conversions, And Fruit

SPEAKER_06 24:06

In order to commit that action, unless God continued to uphold them. So it's it's kind of inescapable that God is somehow ultimately responsible. And we're just granting the biblical witness that he's actually governing these things, not just spectating, right? He's not just looking and seeing it happen. You know, so I would make a distinction between people who are not sufficiently informed, those who are and are still wrestling with it, and then those on the other hand who are just lashing out against it. Now, uh maybe they're just temporarily lashing out. Uh that would be one thing. Uh hopefully that subsides quickly. But you know, I remember, so I remember when I was first reading these things, and remember if you were here earlier, I was reading the Bible on my own. I didn't have other people telling me stuff. So I didn't really have some of these escape routes of denying that scripture teaches this. I'm just looking at the text thinking, this is what it says. What do I do with this? And I remember wrestling with it for about a week where I was like, is this really the case? Like, am I really that dependent upon God that I can't even take credit for believing in Jesus apart from his will? And, you know, so I was walking, I remember thinking crazy thoughts. I was like, I'd put my hand up and say, Did God, did God ordain that? You know, just like trying to get my mind around this. And, you know, what was it first a little bit difficult to understand and accept, became the greatest of all comforts to me. I put my head on the pillow at night, every night, thinking, not a single thing can happen to me that my father hasn't ordained, and none of the terrible things that happened to me are for naught. They're all going to eventuate in my good and his glory and the salvation of sinners, you know, whatever God is planning to do with it. And honestly, I understand that there are people that have difficulty with these things, and I'm thinking you're denying yourself a world of comfort. Because this this isn't a this isn't turmoil over here, right? This is this is peace. This is what it means to have peace, is to know that you are in the hands of your father. Not a hair falls from your head apart from his will. Uh you know, not a problem with that part. Um I'm uh I I just to reiterate, I would just say that there's a difference to my mind in people that don't know these things. Sometimes people are are sort of pushing back against it because they've heard things from other people. Other people have put bad ideas in their head. They they've given them a way to think about this rather than the way the Bible. The Bible doesn't present these things as bad news. Right? The Bible doesn't present these things as occasions for charging God with evil. They always present these as reasons for reverencing God, honoring God, submitting to God, right? All these things. So there's a number of possibilities, but I get more increasingly more fearful for the person the more it just looks to me like an unredeemed heart that's lashing out against God.

SPEAKER_07 27:18

And you know, so uh here I had the question for you. Meg, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yes. Um, this is this has been so good. I love the sovereignty of God. Um, I I wanted to ask this because I think about this a lot. Um so we know that God is absolutely sovereign, um, and we know that man is truly responsible. And so, like, for example, when we see like in Exodus chapter 4, verse 21, where God is decreeing to Moses, right, that he's going to harden Pharaoh's heart. But then the plagues come and Pharaoh hardens his heart, and then God, in his long suffering, reveals that final judgment and hardens his heart. So I wanted to get your thoughts on the precise relationship between divine decree and human choice, and what does that look like and how would you explain it?

SPEAKER_06 28:24

Yeah, so uh I it's kind of what I was trying to do earlier when I was talking about the water. Water has a nature, right? It it seeks a level. So if there are no boundaries, it just uh you know goes all over the place. So I have this cup here, uh not with water, but another liquid, and obviously it's holding it in in uh place. Remove those boundaries and it goes all over. Well, the the human heart is described by scripture as desperately wicked, evil, right? Jeremiah 17, 9. Paul gives an equally unflattering description of the human heart in Romans 3, where he gives a litany of verses there from the Psalms and elsewhere talking about man's depravity. Genesis 6 speaks of man's heart being evil continually from his birth, uh from his infancy. Uh so scripture is very negative with respect to the the heart of the of the fallen man, and it's out of that that every evil thing comes, Jesus says in Matthew 15: murders, adulteries, heresies, whatever. All of it comes from the heart of man. Uh so when we see people not being utterly evil, that's an indication to us, not that man isn't, what scripture says, but that God is restraining man. This is what we call common grace. God restrains people, he keeps them from living out all the evil that they would do. Now, think about, I mean, this I run into this a lot uh because I do prison ministry, but uh one of the things that uh you often hear from people is they didn't have a good upbringing. Okay, that's one of the restraints that God uses to hold people back. Now, I'm not saying this justifies, that's not my point with this. They're justified in doing this because they they didn't have a good upbringing. No, that's that's not the point. The point is that there are restraints. Some people have more, some people have less. And all it takes for a person like Pharaoh to descend into greater wickedness is for God to simply remove the restraints. And that's what you see happening in Romans 1. This is where Paul talks about God giving people up. He's giving them over. Not now he it doesn't say he's putting evil into them. You're right, he's not making people evil. It's it says he's giving them up and up to what? The to act according to their own depraved hearts. Uh so if you I'll just pull this up real quick. My computer turned off here, I think. I don't know why. Oh, there we go. Um in Romans 1, it says, uh, let's see here. Okay, therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them, for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature. And then it goes on, for this reason God gave them over to degrading passions. For their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burden their desire toward one another. But notice it's talking about God giving them over. Uh then it says, verse 28, just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind to do those things which are not proper. So God is simply abandoning man, as it were. Not like, you know, if God abandoned a person completely, they think they'd cease to exist. But I mean, in terms of his moral restraint that he exercises on people. Uh it's a judicial abandonment. Yeah. Yeah, it's judicial. So Pharaoh, you know, scripture says God raised Pharaoh up for this very purpose. Pharaoh was an idolater, an evil man, and God, you know, uh I I don't suspect that he was probably necessarily any worse than some other leaders in history, right? Uh but the the picture that scripture paints of people is that they're capable of all the evil of a Hitler or a Mao Sai Tung or Stalin or you think of anybody, you know, Attila the Hun, whoever you want to think of that's evil, the capacity for that is present with all of us. And that's why, you know, people often mistake themselves for being good because God has been good to them and restrained them from doing the you hear people say things like, um, you know, I wanted to do this, right? They but they didn't. Why didn't they do it? Something kept them back. Maybe they didn't want to go to prison, maybe they didn't want to shame their family. You know, those are restraints. And uh, you know, God is the one who who's in charge of those those barriers. Uh so unless I uh just ranged way beyond your question, I hope that answers it. Sometimes I just get carried away and I I think I'm addressing something and I'm I'm really just uh it's it's it's it's also like it's also like I'll see you, John, I'll give you I'll call you in a second.

SPEAKER_07 33:54

But it's also like what happens when uh the sun withdraws its heat creates ice, it hardens, it hardens water and it hardens it. If if um if God were to remove his restraint, as you said earlier, brother, from the uh from the boundaries of the oceans that the Lord God has set, it would flood the entire earth and we would all we'd all perish. But and that's the thing, there's there's that judicial restraint that God has that keeps uh man's depravity in check. But when he uh removes those restraints to whatever degree he does so, then man's heart will plunge into the the extreme of chaos that uh his depravity will allow with whatever restraint that God still has on it. And um and it's and it's a scary thing to be in in that situation on and on top of that not knowing that this is what is happening. And this is why it is so important so important for for mankind to understand, especially Christians, that God is sovereign. And if the and if the believer, if the Christian believer has not espoused this uh this understanding, then who is left to tell the rest of the world what's what what the situation really is and how to um alleviate that situation. So it becomes this really uh tough, you know, tough place to be in. And depravity and sin is nothing to play around with. And either and especially uh trifling with God's sovereignty is nothing to to play around with. Brother John, you got a question for Anthony?

SPEAKER_05 35:41

I do. Uh Anthony, what a blessing it is to have you here this evening. Um hello, everyone else. Good evening. Um I was interested to find out about the uh the jail ministry and how often um are you experiencing you know the jailhouse conversions where it's just for the moment, you know, or how how's that going for you?

SPEAKER_06 36:09

Yeah, so uh part of that's not really something I can't answer because the guys that I minister to, typically the the jailhouse religion thing that you're talking about, which for those that don't know, you get people that will profess faith just because they're in jail and they're hoping to A lot of what's behind it is they're hoping that by professing faith they're gonna get out. You know, God's gonna suddenly open the jail cells or give favor to the parole board or something like that. But the people that I minister to don't really have a prospect, not many of them, of getting out, lamentably. You know, they're they're there for the duration, which cuts down on some of that, right? A lot of that. There's no there's there's no benefit here in their minds. They're not going to get out just because they profess faith. Um or or at least I can say it's not like they get out and then have a chance of revealing where their heart was really at. They end up uh I haven't really had inmates get out that I've been ministering to. Now, I can say, though, that uh I'm part of a broader ministry. There are uh I I am the regional director in South Carolina. There are other directors in Texas, California, Virginia, other places, and they do minister in jails and prisons where people get out. And uh our recidivism rate is extremely low. So the recidivism rate refers to the return rate. Right. Uh and um it's a it's very low. And the the prison uh officials take note of that. They often mention to us how remarkable it is. Uh so happily we see a lot of lasting fruit from this. You know, but there's you know, there's always there are some times when I'm when I'm preaching and teaching to people and interacting with them, and I I'm over there thinking, you know, I I wonder if if this person because it's hard to know in some cases. You know, well, I'm not pretending you can infallibly know in anyone's case. I can't know anybody's heart, but I mean, you know, there's there's a level of uh evidence that people can have and and can give you a degree of confidence for you know they're where they're at. And uh, you know, some of them I can tell, you know, that at least at this point they they may not really get get it yet, but uh, huh?

SPEAKER_05 38:38

How how long have you been uh doing that? Five years. Okay. Um so what percentage I know it's all God, you know, what percentages uh percentage has been successful, you know, how many people do you believe uh have been saved, truly saved?

SPEAKER_06 39:00

Oh yeah, I I don't even know. I so what happens is I I do two or three things. I I preach, I teach, and I mentor. So the preaching that's an opportunity for anybody in the prison to come out. And so I can be preaching between a hundred and two hundred people at a time. And I don't see the vast majority of those guys outside of that. They they they bring them in, and then uh I can talk to people for a short period of time before they have to go back to their dorms or cells. And so I don't really get to know what's going on in their things.