LIVE: "God, Depart From Us!" (Job 22:10-24), Part 2/5

People say “God gave us free will” like it’s a direct quote from Scripture. We don’t let that slide. We open with a hard look at what the Bible actually says about God’s sovereignty, human sin, and the order of salvation, then ask the uncomfortable question: if we were truly free in the modern, autonomous sense, when did we get that back after the Fall? That one question forces clarity about regeneration, depravity, and who moves first when salvation happens. 

A surprising detour into Adam and Eve turns into a sharp insight about shame and sin: they don’t even recognize nakedness until after rebellion, and then they feel the need for covering. That matters because it pushes back on the idea that unregenerate people can simply approach a holy God on their own terms. We also talk church history and philosophy, including how the modern concept of libertarian free will gets fortified later and then read backwards into the biblical text, creating confidence where the Bible is often quieter than our traditions. 

Then we drop into the Book of Job and Eliphaz’s argument that wicked people act like God doesn’t see. We connect that to a deistic mindset, the kind that treats God as distant and uninvolved, and we show why that belief makes sin easier. Finally, we confront the habit of judging faith by outcomes. If suffering “proves” guilt, what would that imply about Jesus on the cross? Stick with us for the tension, the pushback, and the doctrinal clarity. If this helped you think, subscribe, share it with a friend, leave a review, and reply with your biggest question about free will and suffering.

Transcript

Free Will Claims Put To Scripture

SPEAKER_05 0:00

You instead of stupid, because you know what was in Galatians 4, I think, where Paul says that who bewitched you, and then it's literally calling someone stupid.

SPEAKER_07 0:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Stupid Galatians.

SPEAKER_07 0:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:12

But with that deism, what you know how the chosen part, when people think that they chose God, not that He chose them in order to choose them, would that be would that apply to that too?

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

When y'all were talking about and explaining what that meant.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Bible says nothing about that. Zero. And yet, that is a predominant doctrine that is taught and belief. And the Bible says absolutely zero about it. But when it comes to the sovereignty of God, or here's another, here's another example. And they say God gave us free will, and I'm like, where is that in the Bible? Where? Where? And even if we even if we could argue that free will was given to man, let's say with Adam, let's say we let's say we are saying that Adam had a free will. Let's say he did. We know for a fact that if he did, it was lost. So when did man get it back? When did how did men today end up getting it back?

SPEAKER_06 1:43

They rised above all of it. They rose above it in their deprav depraved state, had the arm to lift up and say, I chose God, but the Bible says absolutely nothing about it.

Adam, Sin, And Sudden Shame

SPEAKER_04 1:55

Right. And and and also, this is why I love that comment that um uh I think it was Mariah said the other day, too, about uh Mariah, what was that when we were talking about how people I think they can approach God? Oh, we're talking about how in Habakkuk how it talks about God is of pure eyes and cannot look upon sin. So then if that's the if that's God's perspective about sin, then how is it that men with their free will who are yet in sin are able to approach God and find acceptance with Him when yet they when they are yet to be regenerated? Their first method to their first prop their first process in the Ordo Salutis or the order of salvation, their first process is my free will first, then regeneration, because it is my will that determines whether or not I'm going to allow God to regenerate me. That's stupid. I gotta call it what it is. I'm sorry. I just do. Brother Rodney, go ahead. You have something you wanted to say.

SPEAKER_07 3:01

Good evening, everybody. Dawn, love you all, God bless. I just had a random question. Uh and just because you said Adam, and was I guess the Holy Spirit wanted me to say it. In therapy today, we were kind of getting into Adam and Eve, and I know I'm going off on sandy, but we can revisit it or another live. But he brought a question to me and said, Why were Adam and Eve naked? And he he got around to being something about shame. And then we started getting into the ego and all that stuff. So I'm maybe going somewhere else with it. But it just made me just throw that out there because I wanted to ask, but because you said something about Adam and sin and stuff like that is what prompted me to ask that question. So I don't know if it ties in or if it can be tied in in any way, but well, why they were naked is a different thing.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

But the thing about it is you have to understand something. They didn't know they were naked until after they sinned.

SPEAKER_07 3:46

Uh-huh. Okay, okay, okay. I'll say that to my next session when I talk to him.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

I didn't know what to say. They they didn't know, they didn't, they had no awareness of nakedness. There's no concept of nakedness to them until they sinned.

SPEAKER_06 4:00

Yeah, God said, Who said you were naked?

unknown 4:02

Right.

SPEAKER_07 4:03

Right, right. Okay. I didn't read that. I just didn't know what to say to them when he said it. I said, uh, really? I don't know. But okay. Okay, okay. Brother Penn.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Well, just really quickly to to Rodney's uh point, another way of saying it is they sinned and then and then they realized they needed a covering. Right. If you get what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_07 4:26

You seeing that Rodney? Okay. I like okay. All right, I'll take it like that. Okay, fine, fine, fine.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

But on the free on the free will thing, I I did want to say one thing about that. Um just a little background. Philosophically, mankind has been moving away from God, the sovereignty of God, for centuries and centuries and centuries. But when you hear Arminians talk about, well, free wills in the Bible, the modern concept of libertarian or autonomous free will that we talk about today really was fortified in completeness by Thomas Aquinas. This is the 13th century, to put this to you guys. So I just wanted you guys to know how ridiculous the claim that free wills in the Bible. The 1200s is when that happens. Okay, and so do you see how quickly the Protestant Reformation came after the doctrine of free will? It didn't take long before people, it led to some bad stuff really fast. In 300 years, you've got you've got Luther putting those 95 theses on Wittenberg's door, right? Right. And so to act to when they read back, oh well, free will's no. No, no, no. This is 1200, the 13th century uh philosophical stuff.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

That's right. That's right, absolutely. And just so you guys know, I'm just throwing this out there. I'm just throwing this out there. I've been lobbying to get Pat to come give us some history lessons. I'm just saying. So if anybody wants to help me lobby him for that, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 6:00

I already do it. I already do it.

Eliphaz And The Lie God Doesn’t See

SPEAKER_04 6:04

All right, because that's the kind of stuff I like to learn and know that Pat's talking to me about. So um, whether he does or not, it's another thing, but it's good. I'm glad I Pat, I'm blessed, man, to have you here and to share these little tidbits with us. I really appreciate you, brother. I really do. I want you to know that. Um, so anyway, back to these verses here. Um, what LA Foster saying in these verses 12 through 14, again, this reflects, I want to say again, it reflects a very common understanding and a very common error that so many people have, even in Christian circles, that when men act unjustly, they are always tempted to imagine that God doesn't see. And that is true for the unbelieving sinner. But it is not true for Job, and it is not true for anybody who's a true Christian. Anyone who's a true Christian knows that they have an intricate involvement with the Lord Almighty. They know they do. And they know He's that He is not so far away. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is with us at all times. We know that the Spirit is always teaching us and convincing us of sin and leading us into all manner of righteousness and how to please God. And so, and and this is what the beautiful part of it is. Yeah, right, Lisa says sees. And I forgot what the extension is for it's like Jehovah and then another name, which means, you know, the Lord sees, and I forgot what that is, I forgot which one it is, but the Lord sees, and that's the that's the uh the crux of the matter. This is what we need to understand, and this is what we need to communicate to people also as part of our witness. You we we tell sinners, you need to understand that the Lord sees you. You see, because when you believe, when you convince yourself that he doesn't see, that he's not involved, that he's not aware, that he's not watching, that he's not paying attention, then it opens a door for flagrant sin. Jehovah Gyre. No, Jehovah Gyre is providing. But uh Jehovah Nisi. Nisi. Nisi. The Lord sees Nisi. So so anyway, we have to remember that. So outward oppression is always often link, linked to to uh unbelief. And and we can always, yeah, you're right, Michael. Nisi is banner. Um, I can't remember what it is, but but I forget. There's so many of those. I just can't remember.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

Oh, Nisi is bannered. Gyra. Jehovah Jyrah, my provider. Is that the one?

SPEAKER_04 8:50

No, it's another one that says he sees. And I can't remember which one it is.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

Jehovah Rapha.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

There's so many of them. That's okay. We can get until later. It's not that important right now, but I just wanted to throw that out there. So anyway, let me let me break here for a second and and get some opening remarks. I know we've opened for a while now. We've been talking a little bit, but let me touch on some of the people that haven't spoken yet. Uh, Brother Jeffrey, your thoughts so far. All right. Sister Lisa, your thoughts so far.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Well, I just I think this is um it's an excellent how it's going that we're seeing um that these guys are doing what we see today. Um, I just get and I love what Meg said earlier because it it didn't occur to me, but it's escalating. She she's exactly right. It's just getting worse. They went there first, silent, with the intention on um comforting him. And man, it's gone downhill from there. So I love how this is going, you know, this study.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Thank you, Sister Vanessa. What your what are your thoughts so far?

SPEAKER_08 9:59

Well, I'm I'm with uh Lisa. Meg said pretty much said it all. But I also think that um they think that Job doesn't know his spirituality like he they think he does.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

Right.

SPEAKER_08 10:15

And um that they think he's drowning in his troubles, and he's not.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Right. Very true. Yep, very true. Meg, I mean uh Mariah, go ahead. Anything what do you want to say?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Well, it seems as though they think they don't think that Job has a fear for the Lord, but more so a fear of um loss of possessions of his things, and now he's crying out because of uh the fear of all of his riches has left him, um, which is quite the opposite, as we know that it is the fear of the Lord, and that his spirit is not troubled by man, but by because of God.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Amen. Amen. Um, anybody else want to add before I move on to verse 15? Anyone else?

SPEAKER_05 11:05

I'll add to what makes it, and it's about where they're progressing in because in Proverbs, where it talks about when you speak the truth to someone like that, that's what they do. They come back 10 times harder because you're they're offended by what you're saying. So they're you're offending them. Forget exactly what it says, but it's basically to that extent. So that's Amen.

The Old Way Of The Wicked

SPEAKER_04 11:30

So verse 15, I'll read verses 15 through 17. Elipha says to Job, Have you marked the old way which wicked men have trodden, which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood, which say unto God, Depart from us, and what can the Almighty do for them? Now listen, that last one. Man, that's that's a whole sermon waiting to be written. Imagine, I'm starting from the bottom here, but just imagine man saying, God, depart from us, what can you do for us? The same folks where the Lord Jesus Christ says, Depart from me, you work as of iniquity, because I never knew you. The ultimate, the ultimate sin of man that warrant that um um indictment from Christ is that men tell God, tell the Lord Jesus Christ, tell his saints, depart from us. What can the Almighty do for me? This is this is the essence of a Paul of what Pat mentioned about rebellion. This is the essence of rebellion. God, there is nothing you can do for me. Jesus, I don't need you. You take your your cross, you take your crown of thorns, you take your bloodshed, you take your righteous parables and speech, it does nothing for me. This is the heart of the wicked. I am fine without you, I will be fine without you. It's crazy. Sister Lisa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I was just gonna say, we hear that a lot from people, especially nowadays. People, it's like the wickedness isn't hiding. They'll come out and say that stuff. But what came to my mind are the so-called believers who uh will judge the Lord and say stuff like, uh, my Lord wouldn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves to hell. You know, uh, my Lord wouldn't do this, or the the God I worship is is all love. He doesn't, you know, he you know what I mean? They they will pass judgment and decide, you know, they're worshiping a God that they've created in their own mind, and they don't read scripture, they disregard it. Um, but yeah, to what you were saying, I'm hearing that more and more, and it's it's almost not even shocking to me now. Do you know what I mean? I mean, oh yeah on this app, especially.

Doctrine Does Not Divide True Christians

SPEAKER_04 14:23

You know, you got people go, you got people saying, you got people saying today, you know, you talk about the Lord Jesus Christ, and now you have people going saying, like, have we not progressed enough for you to still be thinking that there's any potency in the belief in a savior who died on a cross and who shed his blood for sinners? You still believe that? Really? Do you still really believe that? You know how long ago that was? Nothing's changed. But this is how they talk. Do you know what these people are? They are fools. And if you are somebody listening to me and you feel this way about the Lord Jesus Christ, you're a first-class, first-rate fool. Gotta say it. Gotta say it. Because it's true. Now, it's funny that we're talking about this because look at what it says here. Eliphos asks Job, have you not marked the old way which wicked men have trodden, which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood? So the old way, it refers to the path of the ungodly, the course that ungodly men take, have taken in past generations. He's telling him, Job, you need to go back to the to the past and remember and remember what happened to the ungodly. You need to remember what happened to those people, especially those who who, you know, those who were swept away by now listen, by sudden destruction. He's telling Job, if you remembered the path that the wicked have taken in the past, the if you remembered the path taken by the wicked in the past, then you would have a better understanding of what's happening to you right now, because they're saying that this is what's happening to you. And you're the only one in the room who doesn't know it. This is what they're telling Job. Go open up the history book, go open up the Bible and see what happened to the wicked, how God dealt with them. You are living your life like them, and we know that you're living your life like them because we see the outcome of your life at this moment. And this is the evidence that you are like one of them. And he's telling them what we always talk about. History has a way of repeating itself. And he's telling Job, you are a victim of that. You haven't learned from history. This is what they're telling Job. You've forgotten. You forgotten. And these people, these sinners, these ungodly people that they equate Job with being like, their end, their end comes swiftly and it comes unexpectedly. Just as a flood overturns everything that it touches, which is what he uses in his language. You were they the wicked are cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood. And this is what happens to the wicked. This is true, what Ellie Faz is saying. It is exactly the truth. It's the absolute truth. Again, not true when it comes to Job. But it is a true, uh, is it is a true in biblical doctrine. It's a true in biblical doctrine. And just by on a sidebar, don't ever let people tell you something stupid like doctrine divides. Because the way they mean it is that it brings disunity from true believers. No, it doesn't. True doctrine unites true believers. What doctrine divides are those who are not called to believe. Those who don't receive that inward call of Jesus Christ, that effectual call by the Holy Spirit that brings them to Christ. Doctrine doesn't divide Christians. Doctrine divides those who reject the truth, whether they call themselves Christians or not. And so we need to understand this. I love doctrine. I love the doctrine of propitiation. I love God's doctrine of his mercy. I love the doctrine of redemption. I love the doctrine of predestination. I love the doctrine of foreknowledge. I love the doctrine the doctrine of sanctification. I love the doctrine of grace. I love the doctrine of justification. What kind of a Christian is foolish enough to say doctrine divides? If you're one of those people who says that, stop. Doctrine unites. Doctrine are links that are all chained together and they reinforce our salvation and they keep us chained to our Lord. We are said to have an anchor of our salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ, an anchor to our soul. Well, you know what those you know what that anchor is held to? Links in a very strong, unbreakable chain. And you know what those chains are? Doctrines. Doctrines. I'm going to ask everybody to participate in one brief participatory moment. I'm going to ask again and I want everybody to answer at the same time. Bear with me, please. Let this let me have this my one fun thing for the night. Everybody unmute. Everybody, I want everybody on mute. And when I'm going to ask the question, I'm going to ask the question. Every one of those links in the chain of our salvation, they are called what?

SPEAKER_08 21:14

Doctrines. Doctrine.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Amen. Doctrine. Doctrine. That's right. That's right. All right, everybody. Go back to mute. Let's get back to work. All right. Thank you for that. I like my little humorous moments. You guys really will find out that I'm an idiot in person. All right.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

So hey, hey, Jonathan. Jonathan, can I say one thing?

SPEAKER_04 21:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

There's no way to avoid doctrine because if you don't have good doctrine, you've got what? You got false doctrine. But it's one or the other.

Stop Judging Faith By Outcomes

SPEAKER_04 21:52

That's right. It's one or the other. You got one or the other. That's right, brother. Well said. Well said. So the the sin. Of the wicked here, in these verses here, is described as a rejection of God, which I think uh Brother Pat was talking about earlier. Uh rejection, rebellion, all these things that all they all blend into one pot, uh and one big missed mixed bag of unrighteousness and uh a diabolical resistance against the Almighty. Um, but they reject God and they desire to be free. Now here's the thing they desire to be free from his rule, they don't want God's dominion over them, they don't want it. And they doubt it, they doubt his power to judge and to save. Now, they either doubt his power to reject or to save, or they doubt his willingness to do it. Either way, the outcome is the same. Either way, the outcome is the same. But again, it suggests that God is not involved. He's just a, you know, and people who believe this, like Meg brought up, they're just deists. That's what they are. They're deists. And by recalling such examples as Eliphaz is telling Job to do, go back and remember, remember the history of the wicked that we've been taught. The argument is made that present sufferings follow the same pattern of past judgments upon the wicked. And what they're telling Job, excuse me, you got you, Job, are one of them. You don't want to listen to me, then at least abide by the historical, our historical experiences, what we know from history. Go back to the examples of what have happened to the wicked. And if you and see what happens if Job looks back to history, they're telling him to reflect on what he might have seen. But if he if they're telling him to look back into history and to reflect on what he would have seen that have happened to the wicked, then they're expecting Job to come to the same conclusion about himself that they have come to about Job. Meaning that what we see has determined what is going on with you. You can't look in history at the history of a wicked person and look into their heart. But when you look back, you're looking at what happened and you associate their impiety based on what you see was the result in their life, in their life. You have many people in the scriptures, for example, John the Baptist. John the Baptist died a very violent, brutal, humiliating death. And yet he was the greatest prophet to live by Christ's own assessment. No greater prophet born among men than him. And look what happened to him. Now you would look at him like people did in that day, and they would think, well, that's a little bit, that's a little bit of an unfortunate situation. And we know that that's a gross understatement. A very gross understatement. And so, again, another one of these reverberating themes that are woven through this entire book. You cannot judge a book by its cover. This is what Job has been saying the whole time. You can't judge a book by its cover. And, you know, and some of us more than others receive judgments based on what people see. Like I'll tell you, I'll I'll make a confession. I'll make a confession. I'm always open with everybody, with all of you. And listen, I understand, I would understand how somebody might judge me different than what I really am. I can see that. I can see how people can look at me and go, you can't be a Christian. Does a Christian talk like that? You know, and so I can see it. You know, and and and and I'm sure that some of you might say the same thing, but there are others of you who have very kind, gentle demeanor. I never had that. I never had that. I've never been the approachable type, you know, the soft-spoken. I I don't know how to be that kind of person. But I never try not to be me. But I don't say this to make this conversation about me now, because I hate to do that, but I'm just saying I can understand it. I can see how people judge on the outside. And we have to shield ourselves from doing that. And to the extent that we can, if we have a rough disposition, if we can fix it, if we can polish it, if we can look at it and see that there might be some honesty in ourselves, where when somebody tells us something, we can reflect on it and consider it. We should. We should. Because we're not all perfect people. We know that. We're far from it. We're far from it. So our goal is to is to strive to be in a place where we can be reasoned with. And we want to be able to be reasoned with. Job can't reason with his friends, and his friends don't believe they can reason with reason with him. And we see that this is this has become, we're gonna see how it becomes this impasse that is only dealt with when God steps in in chapter 38. Because there was an impasse. He hasn't stepped in yet. But when he does, he's gonna straighten everybody out in a glorious way, as only God can do. Any other comments? Before I move on to verse 18. Anybody? Sister Meg, what do you think? Meg and then two witnesses. I'm gonna ask you something too, or get your input on where we are right now. Meg and then two witnesses.

SPEAKER_06 28:43

And and and 15?

SPEAKER_04 28:46

No, I said before I get to verse 18. Anything, whatever you if there's anything I can do.

SPEAKER_06 28:51

No, I I we're right on we're right on point. I'm loving it. It's good.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

Perfect. All right. Two witnesses, anything you want to add?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Well, the more I uh because I went ahead, right? I don't know if you guys uh done that, but I went ahead yesterday and I continue reading after uh yeah. So man, the more I read these guys and and try to like uh understand them, the more I just think that uh because you see God told the devil that everything was in everything about job was in his hands, right? So I think at this point that maybe the these guys are in the hands of the devil against job, you know. Like this is this is one of his tactics for him to I don't know, try to break him or stuff like that. Because it cannot, man, it cannot possibly be that these people are really his friends.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

Right. You're right, brother. You're right. Amen. Sister Morale, anything you can add.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

I I just find it uh so ironic of how it is in in their speech, and and they don't reflect on themselves. That's what's really just blowing my mind is that it's like they're taking every angle that they can, high and low in between, to try to get him to see that he's such a wicked and evil person. Um, you know, like but what I really find here is when God's when they said is it God they say unto God, depart from us, that that what can the Almighty do for them?

SPEAKER_07 30:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

We hear it all the time. We do that is crazy that that he is also comparing Job to people who say such things.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Yep. anybody else? Brother Pat, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

You know, they're they're judging by his circumstances and what he's going through. So if we're gonna be consistent, if Job is guilty because he's going through a rough time, man, Jesus on the cross, he must have really done some bad stuff for that, right? Look what happened to that guy, right? Look what happened to that guy. He must have really done some bad stuff.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Yeah, see, that's that that's when we start making these deeper connections. So the more that we can drive, the more that we can use these things to sort of reflect on our Lord, a lot of things that that they start to make sense about what Christ, what he went through on our behalf. And like Brother Pat says, I mean, if if what these guys are, if what they're saying is correct, like Brother Pat said, then the consequences of what Christ should have endured should have been, I mean, if you base it on what you saw, um you'd have to come up with the conclusion that what he got, he deserved. And just by way of preview, I'm gonna talk about this on Sunday night. Um, so just by way of preview, I'm on Sunday night, since we're talking about this, I'm gonna be trying to point out how dispensationalism proves that Christ got what he deserved. That's what we're gonna talk about on Sunday. Sunday night. Lord willing. I'm gonna show how dispensationalism proves that Christ deserves what he got. Because I believe that teaching teaches that his crucifixion was something that is deserved just as the Jews to this very day maintain. So hope you're here for that one on Sunday.