LIVE: "Dispensationalism Justifies the Crucifixion!" Part 2/4

A lot of end-times teaching sounds harmless until you follow its logic all the way to the cross. We dig into dispensationalism and its core claim that Jesus arrived to set up a political kingdom, got rejected, and then introduced a “church age” as an interlude before trying again later. If that story is true, it changes everything about how you read the gospels, the purpose of Calvary, and what it means to call Jesus King.

We work through the Bible texts people argue over, and we don’t skip the uncomfortable implications. If Christ’s original mission was an earthly throne in Jerusalem, then his execution starts to look like a legitimate response to sedition. We explain why that conclusion is unacceptable for orthodox Christianity and why the gospel has no Plan B. Then we anchor the discussion in Scripture: Joshua 21’s declaration that Israel received what God promised, and Daniel 9:24’s six outcomes that point to completion in Christ’s death and resurrection, not a postponed prophecy that props up a future seven-year tribulation or a pre-tribulation rapture.

We also touch the modern history behind the Scofield Reference Bible, the way political narratives can ride on theological claims, and why tribulation is not just a future countdown but the normal pressure the church has faced for centuries. The through-line is simple: Christ’s atonement is the center, God’s Word is complete, and any system that sidelines the cross or delays the kingdom should be tested and rejected.

If you care about dispensationalism, pre-trib rapture teaching, the Daniel 70th week, the millennium, and the relationship between Israel and the church, this conversation gives you categories and texts you can actually use. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves prophecy charts, and leave a review with the biggest question you’re still wrestling with.

Transcript

Church From The Beginning

SPEAKER_04 0:00

When he said that when he talked about the church all the way back to the time when they were when the Jews went through the Red Sea, he called them the church. He also tells us in Acts, Luke also tells us in Acts 20, 28, that Christ Jesus shed his blood to redeem whom the church. His church did not start after he came. His church began from the beginning of time. He began building this church back then. And what Schofield says, and what dispensationalism says, that no, that's not true. The church was unrevealed. It's an interlude, this church age that we live in right now. It's the parenthetical aspect of our of the Christian journey, the whole church. It's craziness. And that it exists only because the earthly kingdom that he intended to establish, because he was not accepted, that it was not established during Christ's first advent. This is this is heretical. It's heretical. So let me stop now and I'll ask all of you for your initial uh remarks and input as we continue to go on before I go into the next point. Um we'll start with Sister Candy. Any thoughts so far? Candy, you there? All right, we'll move on. Brother Jeffrey, your thoughts so far. Everybody's quiet tonight.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Yeah, I'll go right here. Salvation plan B. Uh no. Salvation plan A and only plan. There is no plan B. If you're planning to get into heaven on plan B. I got some bad news, brother. You ain't gonna make it. There is one way to salvation, one way to God the Father. That is plan A, number one, through Christ and Christ alone. This world that we live in, brother, then I'll I'll finish my comments. This world we live in doesn't like being given only one choice. It likes choices, it likes options, it likes to choose. This is not an area where you get to choose. You either receive the gift he gives or you reject it. Pick the right one. Plan is amen.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

And this and I'll tell you something else, brother, to double down on what you're saying. This would imply that the works of God in salvation on earth in his elect people could only happen if the Jews of that day allowed it. Do you know how silly that sounds? It's silly. Sister Lisa, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Well, I'm really excited to be here tonight. Um, I'm really looking forward to you speaking on, hopefully, you're going to speak on the um heretical Daniel 70th week, seven-year tribulation, the way they put it together and the big gap, which never makes sense. And also the pre-tribulation rapture. My mom, who has come out of Catholicism shortly after I did, um, she's finding herself under an under a dispensational teaching. And I'm trying to get her to understand, mom, there's no pre-tribulation rapture. In fact, today I was telling her, listen, you gotta just, it's not gonna happen. And um, you know, you can't, because it was a pastor who teaches her this, she thinks that, you know, that's the word that stands on. So I'm hoping you'll give me some ways to try to, other than the ways that you've already shown me, because I'm sure I've shown those to her. Um, how to get her to understand this stuff is false. So she's gone from Catholicism to another more false teaching, and it's it's heartbreaking for me. Right now.

Schofield Bible And Zionist Politics

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Right. I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Thank you. I'm happy to be here, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

All right, sister. I'm happy to have you here as always. You know that. Brother Pan, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Well, my thoughts, uh I'm not a fan of dispensationalism, as you know, Jonathan. And uh, if I'm too harsh, uh let me know. But I firmly believe that um dispensationalism is not another false doctrine like other false doctrines. There's something unique about it because it's a historical fraud. The people who pushed this did not believe this doctrine. This is important to understand. Theodore Herzl, the the grandfather of the modern Zionist movement, formalized that movement in 1897. He was funded by the Rothschilds, and in 1909, in 12 years, they produced the first Schofield Bible under the Rothschild-owned Oxford University Press and flooded the Western world with it. Within 50 more years, there was support for making a Zionist nation. They decided it would be in the Middle East in Israel, and in 1948 it became this is politics.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

This is this is politics. That's not harsh at all. I'm kind of harsh. You're gentle, and I love it because it's the truth. It is the absolute truth. And you know, a lot of people don't know the that they don't know the they don't know the story of Herzog and all how all that began. And that is the absolute that is the absolute truth. Um uh Sister Candy, have you have you made it back yet or no? All right, I'll go on. Sister Vanessa, what are your thoughts on? What are your thoughts so far?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Well, after Pat's history lesson there, which I love, because I don't know any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_05 6:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Um, I just think that you know, if you don't have faith, I mean, what do you have? I mean, I've had it since I was born. So, you know, it's like I hate what they did to Jesus.

Does The Doctrine Make Jesus Guilty

Joshua 21 And Land Promise Fulfilled

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Well, you know, you know, that's a that's a that's a bittersweet thing, because again, we we we deal with this sort of paradoxically in this regard, because Christ was charged as a guilty person, and he was not. He was not guilty, he was innocent, and but for our sake in the wisdom of God, he went to the cross, and that's what he came here to do, and we're glad. So it's this bittersweet paradoxical component to this. But what I uh and and what I have positioned this this uh message to be about is showing how dispensationalism and as a result dispensationalists, dispensationalists, they would have been based on what they hold to now, they would have supported the execution of our Lord. Their doctrine supports his condemnation, right? Their doctrine teaches that his condemnation was deserved. And this is the whole point I'm making tonight. Because you have to understand something. If Jesus Christ really came here to set up an earthly kingdom, if he really did, then his guilt was legitimate. Do you guys are you see what I'm saying here? Because they would have been because, in other words, he was crucified for insurrection and sedition. He was crucified for the very same thing Barabbas was being crucified for, and the Jews asked for him to let him free. Crucify this guy that called himself a messiah, and yet the Lord Jesus Christ, he was crucified and condemned for belief for insurrection and sedition, meaning to overthrow Rome. But even Rome didn't agree with that, even they didn't agree with that, and that's why they were like, Look, we'll we're giving you an hour. You know that Barabbas did what he did, but you want us to crucify this guy, Jesus? Your king, they're going, we won't, we have no king over us, crucify him. And notice it was the religious people that said, crucify him, the people who should have embraced him. It was the Gentiles who said, I find no fault in this man. So if Jesus Christ was guilty, we would have somewhere in this passage, in this book, where he himself said, I am coming here to be your king, I'm going to take down Rome. Which is exactly what dispensationalists believe Jesus came here to do, but he didn't do it because the Jews rejected him. So this is how their doctrine advocates his guilt and as a result, his condemnation. That's why dispensationalist is a heretical, heinous, egregious lie. No one can speak against this. No one. And that's where you get the postponement idea. And that means that this millennial kingdom in Revelation 20 is now talking about some future period where this prophecy of fulfillment of this inheritance of land to Israel will be fulfilled. And this includes Christ ruling and reigning on a throne in Jerusalem and his taking the throne of his father David. Okay? So this is the this is the problem. Okay, so now let me read you something in Joshua 21. And I can and I can show you several places where this is said, but I'm gonna say it here. And if you're gonna find it, you can look there are other places, or you can write to me and I'll give you the other verses. So in Joshua 21, they have received the Israelites have come into the promised land. They came into Canaan, they come into Canaan, enter the promised land. Listen to what it says, because this is the fulfillment of the promises that God made to Abraham's seed according to the flesh. He's it says here in verse 43 of Joshua 21, so the Lord gave to Israel all the land, all the land, of which he has sworn to give to their fathers. One number two, and they took possession of it. Number three, and they dwelt in it. Four, the Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that he had sworn to their fathers, and not a man of all their enemies stood against them, all their enemies had been vanquished. The Lord delivered all their enemies into their hands. Not listen, listen to this, Christians, not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord has spoken, excuse me, to the house of Israel. All came to pass. Amen. I don't know what Schofield's talking about. I don't understand dispensationalists, I don't understand their thinking, I don't understand their logic because it's not from the word of God. It is not. We are told, not just here, but I can find you several other verses that say the exact same thing that God has not failed to give Israel everything that he promised them. National Israel received every promise that the Lord had made. Every promise. Every promise. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Jonathan, let me ask you a question. If Jesus did come here to set up his kingdom, as they say plan A is, and the cross is was plan B, but he did set up that kingdom, where are you and I headed for right now? Where would we be headed for? Oh, this is what we're looking for is T. What I'm saying is if he hadn't have died on the cross, if that theory, what they espouse, is true, there is no atonement.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 15:22

We're still stuck, we're still broke, we're still headed to hell. It took a blood sacrifice to change everything. That's the part that aggravates me about this. This is so simple. Jonathan, I mean, it's Jesus had to die in order to redeem us. Right. If this doesn't happen, nothing changes. You and I are hellbound. That's right. So his earthly kingdom, the whole theory of that doesn't hold water. No, it holds the water. It's totally ridiculous. I didn't realize the depth of this until you explained it tonight. It kind of aggravated me a little bit because that it's it's it's it sounds good, but it's totally deceptive.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

It's false. It is absolutely false. Absolutely false, all of it. And you see right here what I just read in Joshua 21. And there are there are a few other verses. And what I'll do is I'll put those other verses on, I'll post them later on, and I'll send it to everybody so you can see where all the promises that God made to the national Israel have all been fulfilled. All been fulfilled. And guess why they fell back away from the benefits and the blessings of it? Idolatry. They they always, they all at the height of their at the height of all their blessings throughout their history. They always fell away because of idolatry. Never fails. And so now Christ, when he came here, he gave, he said, as needful for me to go, so that the comforter, the paraclete, who I will send, he will give you it, you know, he will give you, uh, he will dwell inside of you and teach you all these things that testify of me. And that establishes order consistent with the kingdom, the true kingdom, and the true nature of the kingdom that he came here to set up. Because he did set up a kingdom, but it's not the earthly kingdom that made that would have made the Romans this determine, yes, we need to take him out because he's about to rally forces against us. They were a sh the Romans were a shrewd people. If there was any truth to Christ trying to set up an earthly kingdom to overthrow them, they would have found out and figured that out way faster than the Jews would have. They were the authors of law. This is what they did. They were a legal-minded people. And so, as we get into the witnesses, which I'm gonna get into in a minute, you're gonna see who thought Christ should be condemned and who didn't. It's astounding when you look at it. Brother D.T., you want to add anything, brother?

SPEAKER_02 18:19

No, I'm I'm all ears. This is uh very fascinating as always. Thank you, John. All right, brother. Sister Mariah, thoughts.

SPEAKER_07 18:30

Um, so my thoughts are like in Genesis 3.15 when it says that you know the prophecy of our savior. Was this something that oh, maybe that he's gonna destroy and crush the devil's head by the works of him ruling and reigning here on earth. If not, then he'll go to the cross and we'll wait for him to come back and rule and reign then. You know, um, it just makes no sense once you really just turn it inside out. It has no legs to stand on, basically.

Daniel 9 Completed And Rapture Claims

SPEAKER_04 19:04

No, it has it has none. And and and see, so here's what I'll tell you also. Whenever you can confound any given error, um you can do it anywhere in the scriptures. Like, I choose the the things I'm talking about tonight. Tomorrow night, I could choose a whole different set of circumstances to prove and demonstrate the same thing. But when whenever there is an error, like Bernette Meg says, it crumbles to the ground no matter where in the Bible you look. Lisa brought up Daniel chapter 9. When you read Daniel 9, 24, Daniel tells you, the angel tells, tells, the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that there are six things. There are going to be six things that have to take place, and those six things, when they take place, they will be evidentiary as to what closes that 70-week prophecy, what fulfills it, to make an end of sins, to um bring in everlasting righteousness, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to make an end of to put uh to to fill up transgressions, all these things to seal up the. All those six things. If those things did not happen at the cross, then that means Schofield and dispensationalists have an argument that we should legitimately consider. But all those things have happened. Christ made the end of sins. The Israelite nation, they filled up the transgressions so that wrath was brought upon brought upon them to the uttermost. Christ, by his death and resurrection, put an end to vision and prophecy. All these silly pastors run around calling themselves past or preach or uh prophets. Philip Anthony Mitchell, he's not a prophet. He's their newest, he's Satan's newest prophet lying to people about these very same things. And he's also talking about his speaking in tongues and all of that, because somehow God forgot to include what he's telling these guys. He forgot to include that in the word of God. I don't need any prophets telling me anything when I have the word of God. I don't need to hear from anybody else. I don't care what God told you. If you are seeing visions from God telling you things that are going to take place in this earth, Then there's something that God has failed to tell us and decided to tell you. And the word of God is not complete, which it is. So when you go look and and and I gotta tell you something, Christians, all those who say that Christians can lose their salvation, if those things in Daniel 9.24 have not happened, one of those things being reconciliation for iniquity, if that has not happened, then we have not been reconciled to God by Christ. I don't know about you, but I am reconciled to Him. I couldn't be if I were telling you these things right now. I mean, I'd have to be reconciled to be talking about these things. But if he has not reconciled us to God, then there's an argument for either we are either not saved or we can definitely lose our salvation, and we can't. And we, as Justin Campbell says, we have been have been given the ministry of reconciliation. Well, if that hasn't happened yet, how are we given that ministry? Anybody tell me that. How have we been given the ministry of reconciliation if we ourselves have not been reconciled to God by Christ? If you read Isaiah 53, he who talks about he who was smitten is stricken for our transgressions. That doesn't tell me anything about him trying to come to earth to set up an earthly kingdom only to bypass that because the Jews rejected him, and therefore he went to plan B and said, I'm gonna postpone this, I'm gonna put this off into the future. No, Isaiah 53 is talking about he's gonna come here as a servant to suffer for our sin. That was his mission. It's not about living on a piece of dirt. His mission was to purge our filth of sin. That's what his mission was: to purge our sin. To be our fuller's soap, to be our balm of Gilead, to be the precious rose of Sharon, to make reconciliation for iniquity and all those things that Daniel 9.24 talks about. If those things did not happen, which, if you are a dispensationalist, you have to say those things did not happen. Which means that all of us today are yet in our sins. Even on this this subject, what I'm saying right now totally destroys this idea of some future earthly 1,000-year millennial period on earth where Christ comes down to earth and rules again. What I'm telling you right now shows that that is false. And it also means that the whole idea of the just of this dispense of this uh seven-year tribulation part, all of that falls apart with this teaching. No prediction. In addition to the several others. Go ahead, Niggs.

Tribulation Now And Modern Errors

SPEAKER_06 25:19

Well, it also, if Daniel chapter 7, 9, I mean Daniel chapter 9, 24 through 27, if it all everything has been complete, then the 69th week, which people who agree who who agree with pre-trib, it's been fulfilled. So pre-trib is out the water. It's out the water. There's there's no nothing more. It's over.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

There's there's not there's not there is no look here's the thing. You you can look there, here's the bitter sweet to that. The sweet is the easy part. There is no tribulation, seven-year tribulation period. The bitter part is that we are the church has been in tribulation ever since Christ ascended on high. Every one of us goes through tribulation. Every one of us. And in different periods and different eras in the history of the church, the intensity is more severe and less severe depending on what it is. For us in America, we have had it pretty easy, comparatively speaking. But when you're so, when you are so disconnected to like when the Catholic Church was killing, when they killed 50 million Christians, it's hard for people to understand. Because it didn't happen in your lifetime. So you act like we act like it didn't happen. But what could be a greater tribulation than that? And this has been going on, this has been going on for centuries. Christians are always somewhere going through, quote unquote, going through great tribulation to some degree everywhere in the world. Tribulation is happening to Christians on in on in more severe terms and other places than they are for us. And I have no doubt, I have no doubt that it's coming to America. I have no doubt at all that it's coming to America. And I'm going to tell you a big reason why. A lot of it has to do with these lies now that we're trying to defend ourselves against right now. Dispensationalism is the is the the modern day it is the modern day equivalent of dealing with the the sacraments that the Catholics pushed back in the, you know, in the in the in the early days of the Catholic Church. It goes against the baptism, the baptismal regeneration aspect of it. Um it goes against the Pelagian heresies that Augustine fought against. It goes against all these things that Martin Luther went against when he wrote the 95 Theses and put it on the door of Wittenberg. It goes against all the arguments that that Calvin was making, that Whitfield was making, that Edwards was making. All these great men, in any era in church history, there was always God's champions, his people who were fighting against the prevailing errors of the day. And make no mistake about it, today it is dispensationalism. It is all a lie. It frustrates grace, it upsets the completion of the Bible. I can go on and on about all the things that this teaching that it impacts. And keep in mind, this did not even come up around until the 1800s. That is still a baby teaching. And yet it is pervasive and predominant within Christian circles. And it's and it's terrible. Sister May, go ahead. Pat and then Meg.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

You know, uh, I just want to add one thing if you don't mind. So there might be some people in the chat of well, if the people who funded this movement weren't even Christian, you know, they're they're non-believing, they don't even believe in Jesus. No. So what do they have in the game? Why do they care about pushing this doctrine? Doesn't make any sense. You need to understand these the Zionist movement, they're not stupid, they're students of history. Right. And if you study all major empires and the history of post-empire Europe, religion has always been used to give authorities a divine right to rule, whether you talk about Pharaoh being a walking god, whether you talk about the bloodline of the Caesars being a walking god, or if you fast forward all the way to the Holy Roman Empire and all the kings of Europe claiming to have a divine right to rule. So do you see what's being established here with this theology in Western civilization? Is they're establishing the principle that there is a divine right to this land from God. That is what they're seeking to do with this.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Right. It's really crazy. It's really crazy. So, and you're right, brother Pat. You're right. Uh, Sister May, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 30:18

I wanted to know if you were gonna go into um Acts 7. Nope. Um, where it where it talks about the Sony of Stephen and what Schofield said about that and why the Lord Jesus Christ stood.

Why People Crave A Human King

SPEAKER_04 30:30

Oh my gosh. If I went if I went through everything Schofield said, we'll be here, we'll be here for like another decade just to just but that's a really good one. So I there's a lot of these things. And so and so the reality is, but I want to get like, you know, so what there are certain things that I like, because it's a good, you're right, Megan, is is is it's a good thing, and there's a lot of other things that that that would be impossible to fit into just you know this one night. Um, but I also intend to cover these things in different sessions, different meetings together over time. So we we could definitely deal with that. Um but I want to make sure that people understand the ramifications of believing of the teaching that, and this is a hard, this is this is a heavy thing, the idea that dispensation dispensationalism teaches that Christ came here to set up a kingdom on earth to be an earthly king, and then didn't do it because the Jews were mad at him and they rejected it. So then he would so then he throws up his arms like, oh well, since they don't accept, I mean, what's to say that they're gonna accept him later? You see what I mean? But see, here's the thing if Antichrist, or if there is some man of sin or that's that's the embodiment of all that is wicked in in an individual person, which I'm I'm not, which I don't believe so much so, I'm not opposed to it, but what I'm saying, if that were true, them, him, they will accept. And you know who else will accept accept them? All these Christians today. If there is this man of sin, this son of perdition, if it, if it, if it is, if it is in fact the embodiment of a single man, this is who they will accept. Because what wicked men have always wanted, and we see it in biblical history, they always wanted a ruler to dwell with them. That's why they got Saul, and that's why things started going south for them. When they started, when they decided, when they said, actually, when they rejected God as their theocratic governor. He was like, Oh, you want a man so you can be like the other nations? All right, I'm gonna give you Saul, and you choke on him. You want Saul, you're gonna get him, you're gonna get a king. And look what he did, look what he caused. And so, and so you you see the succession of kings that that follows, and each one of those king kingdoms ended up falling apart because of idolatry, because of idolatry. Solomon, the wisest man that God ever made, was given to idolatry. He knew all these things, but the people of Israel, their hearts always went astray, and this is not a slam on them per se, because without what we have now, the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within us, we would be the same. We would be the same. People love to idolize men. They love to idolize men. And and and so and so they make they put these people on pedestals and they worship them. And they will say, Well, no, I don't worship, I don't bow down to them. But here's the thing when it comes to when it comes to what is in your heart, what's in your mind, you have to understand what you what what you give more of your heart to. That goes over and beyond what you give to Christ, what you give to the Lord, how much you dedicate to being in his word, how much and how much you commit to being in prayer with him, how much you commit to involving yourselves and being a part of the lives of other Christians who will let you. You know, we we need to be focusing on any possible way that we can that we can make use of to glorify our king. Which they say he's not king now. They say he's not he's not king. That's what dispensationalists say. Christ is not king, he will be king when he comes back to set up his kingdom on earth. But he tried to do that in the past, and the Jews wouldn't let him do it. So he decided, oh, I'm gonna go to the cross, die, raise again, and then I'll set up my kingdom later on. But in the meantime, I'm gonna save some souls and I'm gonna introduce this church age, and this will be the way that people will come to faith. I'm gonna give them the gospel, they're gonna spread it, they're gonna come to faith, and then I will be their savior, but then later I will be their king as well. Savior now, be my Lord later. So the original, the original intent that Christ had according to dispensationalism was to establish a physical political reign in Jerusalem. That was what Schofieldism teaches. That's what dispensationalism teaches. And then that had to be put on hold because of the stubborn will of Israel. Their stubborn will is what prevented and caused Christ to have to come up with another opportunity, another way to interact with his people and to bring reconciliation to his people. So because the Jews refused to accept this um Christ, then he had to figure out another plan because they would not accept Christ as their king. So, what was the result? He decided to withdraw and to postpone his offer to be king to a later dispensation. Now let me ask you a question. The Bible makes it clear. Paul says, if I tear down, if I build up again that which I tore down, I tear down, I make myself a transgressor. Paul was laying out a principle that we should all live by. When the greater thing comes along, we put aside that which was less in lieu of that which is greater. For example, the Bible. Paul gave this principle again in Romans or in Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians, when he says, when he says, when that which is perfect comes, then that which is imperfect will be done away with.