LIVE: "Will God Esteem Thy Riches?" (JOB 36), Part 2/4

Someone can say a lot of true things about God and still miss the moment completely. That’s the question driving our deep dive into Elihu’s speeches in the Book of Job: are we hearing wise correction, or a softer form of the same accusation Job’s friends keep pressing?

We argue through the turning point in Job 32 where the narrator says Elihu’s anger is kindled against Job, then trace what that anger produces. On one side, Elihu’s theology is strong: God is great, God teaches perfectly, no one can accuse God of wrongdoing, and creation itself displays God’s power. On the other side, we keep asking the pastoral question: what does any of that do for Job’s actual suffering? If the warning is “don’t choose sin in affliction,” is Elihu applying a true principle to the wrong person?

Along the way, we bring in Job 33 and Job 36, discuss whether Elihu misquotes Job’s words, and explore why a “correct” speech can still feel like blame. If you care about Christian suffering, biblical lament, God’s sovereignty, and what wise counsel sounds like in real life, this conversation will sharpen how you read Job and how you speak to hurting people.

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Transcript

Elihu Says True Things

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Is Elihu smoother than the rest of them? Yes. Did he say anything that answered Job as he said he would do? No. He didn't. He did not. And so what we what we and I want you to pay attention as we read these verses because as I said at the opening of this conversation, that Elihu says a lot of right things. He says a lot of true things. He says a lot of true things and right things about God. But what was helpful, what did he say was helpful to Job in the condition that he was in. And that's what we have to understand. That's what we have to understand. And so, Meg, you want to keep taking shots, so let's deal with it. You said, what did he say that was wrong? Let me ask you a question. What did he say that was right about Job? Not just a right about God. What did he say that was right about Job?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I I don't say I said, what did he say? What did Elihu say that was wrong?

SPEAKER_04 1:08

I know, but I'm asking you. Okay, let's say he said nothing that was wrong. What did he say that was right about Job? We know that he says what he says about God is true. No one's arguing that. What did he say that was right about Job?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

So he was just, I don't think he ever I don't think he was an accuser.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Alright, perfect. Alright. So so let me ask you a question. In your mind, what was his purpose?

SPEAKER_03 1:39

His purpose? Yeah. It's stated in chapter 32, verse 2. That was his purpose. And that's why he was upset. What was his purpose? Because he spoke without knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Okay. Alright. So he spoke to correct Job's ignorance.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

No, not his ignorance. That I think to me the lesson is when it comes to this, is there is no perfect response but God's. And so I see Elihu as somebody who's standing in between God and Job and preparing the way for God to speak, especially when we get to 37.

Is Elihu Accusing Job

SPEAKER_04 2:19

All right. All right. Sister Lisa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

So I was just, I want to remind everyone, the whole conversation starts. We have silence at the beginning. And when the silence breaks, the whole conversation turns from all three, and now four. I have to disagree with Meg on this one. I'm sorry, sister. All three, without saying, Job, you did this, are trying to describe a situation. They want him to confess. They're saying things to him like, you wouldn't be in this position if you hadn't sinned. You know that. So they spoke a lot of truth. Again, nothing applied to Job. Elihu comes in, the conversation doesn't change. He just wants to insert his opinions. And I don't think he thinks he's being helpful at all. Again, they don't know. They want Job to confess. Job, confess your sins, Job. You know, you without he's being Elihu is being a lot softer. He he's the one he's the pastor that it's passive aggressive to me. You know what I mean? It's a it's sort of a um without saying it. The accusation is all here. That discussion never changed. I don't believe for one second that Elihu is just responding to what Job said. I think he was listening, like he said, I was listening to all three. It made him angry. Probably that they didn't say something that was good enough to make Joe can Job confess. But that's what we're talking about. What he why is Job suffering? Why is Job suffering? It's not how Job's responding to his suffering. I mean, he's responding very authentically. He's responding maybe incorrectly at some point, but his what he's going through is absolute uh reality, and these guys want him to confess to something, and that's it. They're you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah. So, Sister Meg, you you brought up uh Job 32. This is one of your verses here. So it says here that Elihu's wrath was kindled against Job. Now, I'm trying to understand how you think there's nothing that Elihu is accusing Job of if his wrath was kindled against Job.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Well, if it if it was kindled, what does that mean? If his wrath is kindled? That means that he's not coming at him in a wrathful way, would you agree?

SPEAKER_04 5:16

What do you think wrath being kindled is?

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Well, or it was or he was he was angry. I'm sorry. So Elihu stepped in because he was upset.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

It says he was upset because he said Job justified himself rather than God. Uh-huh. Right?

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Yeah, and that's not something Elihu has said, because Elihu doesn't speak till verse six.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Okay. All right. All right. Well we'll so the person who's writing the book is not aware of the situation. But you are.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Well, just like in chapters one and two, nobody was aware of the scene in heaven.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

I know, but let's deal with let's deal with verse two in Job 32 because you brought this verse up. Uh-huh. You brought it up. Now we know the writer of the book says that Elihu's wrath was kindled. Uh-huh. It says that Elihu's wrath was kindled against Job. Uh-huh. Keep reading the verse. Verse, read the whole verse too. I'm reading the whole verse. It was kindled because he justified himself rather than God.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Uh-huh. So if Elihu didn't say that, and Elihu doesn't speak until verse 6, there's there is, we know that the the word of God is Holy Spirit written. So would this be something that was known because Elihu didn't say it?

SPEAKER_04 6:38

In verse 5, when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, his wrath was kindled. So I don't know why we're playing this little silly game. We know what his wrath being kindled means. And we know that the writer obviously knows that his wrath was kindled against Job. You said that he was not making any charges or accusations against Job, but it is clear that the narrator believes something you don't, which is that he believes, Elihu, that is, that Job justified himself rather than God.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Am I missing something here? No, I believe that. I believe what he said.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

But what you said was that he didn't accuse Job of anything.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yes, but I don't think it's accusatory. I think that it what what is said in the preface of the text.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Well, if he wasn't so if he wasn't accusing him, then why was his wrath kindled?

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Because it read the second verse about his friends. He has something with the friends too, because they accused Job.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

I know he listen, Meg, if we're going to be intellectually honest, let's do it. If you want to have this conversation, let's have the conversation. But don't make it seem like I'm stupid for what I'm reading.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

No, what I'm saying is.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Why is his if he if Elihu was not saying anything, if he wasn't charging Job, either the narrator is right or you're right. So who's right? The Bible is right. Right. So he his wrath was kindled against Job. Are we are we good there?

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Yeah, he was angry. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Okay, so he was angry. But so you said also that he didn't he didn't charge God, accuse Job of anything. But here it clearly says, the narrator says, the narrator says that Elihu believed that Job justified himself rather than God. Is that a is that an accusation or not?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

No, I think it's the truth.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

I think it's the truth. I think Job did justify himself rather than God.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

That's not what we asked whether or not Job didn't. What we asked, what the question I'm asking you is what you said about him leveling a charge against Job, which you said he didn't accuse Job of anything.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

But do you think that that's a a charge that he was?

SPEAKER_04 8:44

I'm asking you, is it or is it not?

SPEAKER_06 8:48

It's an accusation. It falls as a charge because it's an accusation that falls right into it. Sorry, brother. I just, you know, I'm listening and I'm just like, I'm trying to get my in there too, brother, but I hear you. My bad.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:00

So go ahead, man. Just reason through this.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

So it but what sees so this is not something that Elihu said. Okay, because Elihu did not say this. Elihu doesn't speak till verse six. So to me, I see it as a preface that is revealing truth. And there's the re and the reason is because so the writer of the book is wrong, but you're right. No, the writer of the book is is true. That's what I keep saying. I agree with the word of God. I believe that that Elihu was mad. He was and ran burned against Job. His anger burned. Why does why was Elihu upset? Because he justified himself rather than God. Henceforth. And you don't think that was an accusation?

SPEAKER_04 9:49

You don't think that was an accusation? Right or wrong, I don't think you don't believe that was an accusation.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

I think that it's a revealed truth. Okay.

Warnings About Sin In Suffering

SPEAKER_04 10:00

All right. We'll go with that. We'll go with that. That's fine. All right. So Job uh verse 16, 36, verse 16. So he goes on and says, even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place where there is no straightness, and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness. But you have fulfilled the judgment of the wicked. Judgment and justice take hold on thee, because there is wrath. Beware lest he take you away with a stroke. Then a great ransom cannot deliver you. Will he esteem your riches? No, not gold, nor all the forces of strength. Liar not the night when people are cut off in their place, and take heed, regard not iniquity, for this you have chosen rather than affliction. So he does point out that that, and again, he says things that are true. He says things that are true. And so, and he suggests that affliction is meant to lead to restoration. But instead, there is a warning against responding in a wrong type of way. In the wrong type of way. So, why deliver a warning if there's no context for one? Unless he's just being theoretical or theological for the sake of it. So, now like I said, these are things that we get to glean when we look through these through these scriptures. And so he he is rendering an admonishment either to Job, to all of his friends, or to nobody. In particular, he just throwing stuff out there that he just thought was the context of the situation warranted it. But any in any case, he points out that the warning is intended to avoid choosing sin as a response to suffering. In other words, if you're suffering, if you're going through affliction, don't respond to that affliction in a sinful way, because that will be a mistake. Don't do that. And so he also points out that affliction should lead to repentance and not rebellion. He's saying things that are completely true. The issue is do these reply, do these uh remarks that he's making, do they have any bearing on Job at all? Do they mean that are they intended to be applied to Job?

SPEAKER_03 13:35

I agree. Because because Job is blameless.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

I agree. Amen. See, we agree, sister. We agree. We agree here.

SPEAKER_06 13:50

Can I give my point on it? I disagree a little bit on that. I disagree on that. The only reason why I disagree on that, because it says it speaks about justifying judgment. So this is where I mean about justifying.

SPEAKER_05 14:03

Because he just when he says justify himself, is because when he started getting all those afflictions, when he started seeing all those things, instead of going to pray to God and tell God, I'm thankful for that, I'm glad that you did that. He started looking into people, what they thought about him, and started seeing that judgment, why it's going on of what listening to others. Of the instead of listening to God to be thankful, like, man, you know, I appreciate I needed that. That's gonna help me grow more. He started looking to himself because of others what they were telling him instead of looking into the afflictions that he got coming. So that's why the judgment kept coming over and over on him, because he kept looking to himself, he kept looking to the things that were happening on him and of other people, and that's why Wilson came and started telling him all those things of himself, everything that he was going through, because it's rooted in yourself of the things that we go past by that we allow in ourselves to get in our bodies, in our minds. So that's something that I so that I I kind of disagree in that point right there.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

All right, I hear you. I hear you, I hear you. Well, it's we're we're working through it. Amen, brother. Yeah, for sure. So now we get to verse 22. Elihu says, Behold, God exalts his power. This is true. Who teaches like him? No one. Who has enjoined him in who has enjoined him his way? Or who can say, You have wrought iniquity? Remember that you magnify his work, which men behold. Every man may see it, man may behold it from afar. So again, he says some true things about God, many true things about God. God is presented as a great, as a great teacher. He says that no one can instruct God, no one can accuse God of wrongdoing. He points out that the works, God's works, are visible in creation, visible in providence, and that they should lead men and cause men to be the grounds whereby they should honor God. And so he points out that the pro a a good and a proper response to God's works should be reverence, an acknowledgement of his greatness. Nothing wrong with what he says here. There's literally nothing wrong here, nothing wrong here at all. What he says. He's talking about God. And when you extol God this way, you can't go wrong. This is he's talking about God. Sister Lisa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

So I have a question. If let's assume that Elihu is this great guy and he's just making these statements. Um these statements, all of God's people already know. We all know this, right? We this isn't anything new. We we all know of God's sovereignty, of his goodness, that you know, everything that he's saying here, we all know um or or mostly know how how the wicked, how God feels about the wicked. So why why would this uh Elihu be introduced into this into this? Again, we know God's sovereign. He's we're we're supposed to be gleaning from this book. What would what would we what are we supposed to glean if indeed Elihu is not accusing Job and he's just speaking truths about God?

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

What would we learn about that?

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Good question.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

I mean, you know, the three friends we learn, hey, don't be those guys. Don't be Bill Jad, don't be Eli Faz.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Right. But but but I want to make sure we understand something. To be clear, because we keep we we we seem to lose sight of the fact that those guys, as harsh and as bold and as nasty as they were, and we all agree on that. They also fiddle, they spoke a lot of truth. You know, and and we're letting Elihu sort of overshadow that truth. That they spoke a lot of truth. And as I said before.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

What would we learn? What would we learn if Elihu is the good guy here and he's just trying to remind Job of all these things? He's just kind of tossing them out there if he weren't accusing him. I feel like, honestly, the lesson, God is not one of confusion. And if I if I take on that, uh if I take on that position, it is confusing because now I'm saying, what are you teaching me here, Lord?

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Right. All right, May, go ahead and answer. You have an answer. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

So we we back, I mean, we find out, I mean, before all of this, in verse 8 through 12 in chapter 33, what Elihu knows about Job. He states it. He says, Surely you have spoken in my hearing. He's telling Job this, and I have heard the sound of your words. I am pure without transgression, I am innocent, and there is no guilt in me. Behold, he invents pretexts against me, he counts me as his enemy, he puts my feet in the socks, he watches all my paths. Behold, let me tell you, you are not right in this. He wasn't speaking about Job's past. He was speaking about the things that Job spoke without understanding in his situation. As I say, his three friends spoke about Job's past. I don't feel Elihu speaking about his past in this.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Then what is the point of Elihu talking about? What's the point of Elihu talking about Job's affliction being corrective? Correcting what?

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Correcting him in this situation.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

No, that's not what he's talking about. That's not what he's talking about. You're not getting up.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

There is not one time that Elihu speaks about Job's past, not once in the whole and all of these chapters.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

All right.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Okay. But in the other chapters, but his friends, Jonathan, were wrong.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

You're wrong.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

I don't think Elihu's speaking about Job's.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

But you just read, you just read a passage where Elihu also made another accusation that you say he's not making. In the passage you just read.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

He didn't. He said he listen to what he says, though. He says, he says, Surely you have spoken in my hearing. Like Job, I have heard you say this. I am pure without transgression. I am pure.

SPEAKER_04 21:09

Where did Job say he's that he that he is clean and without transgression? And that there's and where did he say that there is no iniquity in him?

SPEAKER_03 21:17

I'll look up the verses because I know that he said it.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

So if if if Ellie who says it's a good thing, show me I'll find it when Job said there's no iniquity in me. And then and then let's talk about what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So so just to clarify, so Meg, the answer would be you you you say that we are to glean that if we are in tri in trial as Jobas, that we are not to make foolish uh uh not to charge God foolishly, basically, to not to say he is is that I mean is that what

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yes, what I'm saying is is even in our suffering, there are things that are in our suffering that we we don't even have the knowledge to speak about God. Even in our lamenting, there's things that man does not understand. God is unsearchable. And sometimes in our suffering, we simply just have to understand and trust God, period, no matter what. And I think that Job did that overall. But there are some places where Job spoke things that he did not completely understand. And he had, and there is a lack of knowledge. And you know what's even more beautiful to me about it is that because God deemed Job righteous from the very beginning, it is how God saw Job through this experience as righteous. Why? Because God made Job righteous. Job didn't make himself righteous, God made Job righteous. And so when I when I read through this, I see that because God made him righteous, therefore, even in his under his limited understanding about what was going on in his suffering, because God has saw Job righteous, he was righteous. And there was no three friends that accused that could accuse him. There was not one person who, even Elihu, who, when Elihu spoke, although I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 23:25

But I want to go on this. I want to see the part where you where Job said he has no iniquity. So show me that. I want to see that. And just raise your hand when you get to it and I'll call you back up. Alright, so I want to I want to see where Job's where Job said he has no iniquity. Alright. So verse 26. Behold, God is great. Elihu, God says, God is great. We know that. And we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out. We all know that. For he makes small drops of waters and he pour down rain according to the vapor thereof, which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly. Also, can any understand the spreading the spreadings of the clouds or the noise of his tabernacle? He talks about God's greatness. And he shows how God's greatness, in his greatness, he has control over all of nature. Rain, clouds, the natural processes, they are all governed by God's wisdom. No one argues this. He's not saying anything new. So he's not a dealing, he's not dealing with anything other than what we what every believer already knows. The ordinary, these ordinary events that take place in nature, they're actual demonstrations of God's divine power according to Elihu. And the result of God's understanding. That's true. We believe it. I look in terms of what he's saying that is true, I agree. What he's saying is true. And so he talks about God's greatness being beyond human comprehension. Being behind, you know. He elevates God in a way that most people who do know God do elevate God. And so, and we only see a smidgen of God's great power. Okay, Meg, jump Job chapter 10, verse 7.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

There's two. Job chapter 10, verse 7. Job chapter 10, verse 7. He says, According to your knowledge, I am indeed not guilty, yet there is no deliverance from your hand. And in Job 27, 5 through 6.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's marinate here a little bit. So where is this, how does it say what what is Job saying here? What do you think he's saying? Well, because in in Are you saying that he are you saying that Job is saying that he has no sin? No. Are you equating him saying, are you equating him saying that I am not wicked with him not having any sin?

SPEAKER_03 26:15

No, he it in verse 9, Elihu is stating what Job has said.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

No, no, no, no. The question was earlier, you said, and you pointed out a verse that where where you said Elihu was saying that Job was saying he had no iniquity.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

No, I that's not what the verse says that I was saying. All right. It's verse 9. It says, I am innocent and there is no guilt in me. That's verse 9.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

And he wasn't guilty.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yes, and that what I'm saying is that's what Elihu is saying to Job that he heard him say. I have heard you say this, Job. That's what I'm saying. But if we read if you go back and you read those verses, he's saying, Behold, let me tell you, you are not right in this. And then he continues.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

He's stating So Elihu said, Elihu said a verse you brought up again. You brought up that Elihu said that Job had no iniquity. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_03 27:25

No, I said no guilt. And I read the verse, it's verse 9.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

33, verse 9. I am pure without transgression. I am innocent, and there is no guilt in me. This is what Elihu is stating that he heard Job say. And he wasn't, he didn't have no response to that. He says, Behold, let me tell you, you are not right in this. And it was from the things he was saying moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Job 33, verse 9.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

I'm clean without transgression, I'm innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah, my version says there is no guilt in me.

SPEAKER_04 28:03

So okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

So so if you read 10 7 and your in your version, what does it say?

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Hold on.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

So May, do you think he's misunderstanding what Job is saying then? Because he's he's a he seems to be accusing him, like he's saying, You say I am pure, like Job, I am pure without just transgression, I am clean with no iniquity in me. Job speaks that. But that's the truth, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Yeah, that's the truth that Elihu was stating about Job that he heard him say. But why does it make Elihu mad then? It you just have to continue to read, sister. I that's why I'm saying.

Rhetoric And The Need For Purpose

SPEAKER_04 28:51

Like there's this let's just let's just go on. Let's let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. Because I don't want to get bogged down with this. Um, Sister Mariah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, I was gonna say it's not the first time in which he um incorrectly quoted something that Job has said. Um in 35, chapter 2, he says, thinkest thou this to be right, that thou you have said my righteousness is more than God's. And Job has never said that. Yeah, he I don't I can't recall a verse or where he even so like inclined, such an ink link that he his own righteousness was more than God's.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Yeah, he asked him a question. It was a question, not a statement.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

No, he said that you said my righteousness.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

No, it says, Do you say my righteousness is more than God's? He was asking a question.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Well, maybe in your version or whatever. But yeah, and and here in the KJV where I'm reading, it says, Thinkest you this to be right? So yeah, you think that that could be a question, but he's saying that you said my righteousness is more than God's. He's saying, Do you think that this is right that you said that my right, your righteousness is more than God's? Do you think that to be right, Job? Is that something that you consider to be good or well to go forth and continue to say out of your mouth, multiplying your words against God? That's what he's saying. It's not like he's just saying like this as a hypothetical question. He's saying that you said this, and do you think that this is right what you said?

SPEAKER_04 30:36

He's being rhetorical, is what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

And so, and so, uh, but you know, uh, but that's exactly what he's doing. He's being rhetorical. He's accusing Job Job of saying that. That's what that's what he's that's what he brings it up for. I mean, we have to understand that there's a reason why Elihu is talking. There has to be a reason. Unless it's just merely to just drop a bunch of of uh platitudes and soliloquies about how good God is. I mean, maybe that could be all that there is to it. That he's not, he's not because you know, because it reads to me, and I think you I have to really be, I have to really stress to see that he is not speaking in a way where he is implying things about Job that aren't true. I can't avoid it. But, you know, people see what they see, and I get that, and I can appreciate it.