LIVE DISCUSSION: "With God Is Terrible Majesty" (JOB 37), Part 3/3

Some of the harshest lines in the Book of Job sound like proof that Job “went too far” until you ask one simple question: who was he talking to? We dig into that distinction and it changes everything. When Job speaks to his friends, he’s debating. When Job speaks to God, he’s praying, and raw prayer often sounds like complaint before it sounds like peace.

We walk through why context matters, how Job’s words get mischaracterized, and why God’s correction is aimed at Job’s response rather than some hidden sin that “earned” his suffering. Along the way we talk about Elihu’s role, including places where Elihu appears to misquote Job or exaggerate what Job meant, and why confident theology can still fail a hurting person if it cannot explain affliction with humility.

Then the panel gets personal: prayers that include anger, confusion, and big questions, plus the experience of conviction and course-correction mid-prayer. We also explore lament as worship, the fear of the Lord as wisdom, and what it looks like to trust God when He does not explain the plan, only calling us to keep coming back as children to a faithful Father.

If you’ve ever wondered whether God can handle your honest words, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with someone walking through suffering, and leave a review with your answer: what does honest prayer look like for you?

Transcript

Why Context Matters In Job

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I think that it provides an impetus for us to investigate these things. And many people, I know Meg and some of the and and some of all of some of you have all looked deeper into these things, and and I hope that even when we're done with this book, that you will continue to do so. So some of the things that I took out that I wanted to expand on, I'm going to sort of try to introduce in a cursory fashion and just kind of briefly glaze over a few things before we close tonight to point out a few things. We need to examine things that he said because when it comes to Elihu and even the other ones, there are things that Job was accused of saying that he did not say. Or citing things that he did say and misappropriating his context for saying them. Or there were situations that he flat out just did not say at all, but they were assumed to be things that Job did say where he didn't say these things at all. And there's there's several of these things. And I believe that having a context is right, is true. So things that Job said that might be considered negative, or things that go contrary to God, or things that that sort of he could say that are not consistent with God, there are two classifications of these things that Job has said. In other words, there are there are there's two different uh groups or two different uh recipients who are hearing his words. One is his friends, Elihu and his uh and the other friends, Bildad, Zophar, and Eli and Elipha's bill, Bildad, and Zophar. And the other thing, Brother Max said, What do you have against Elihu? I have nothing against Elihu, but I also have nothing against the other miserable comforts as well. What I'm trying to do is just deal with the facts as they are presented. So here's the thing you have a significant amount of things that Job said. And I want to submit to you that there are about if you take if you were to put this in percentages, percentages out of a hundred percent, I would say that somewhere around 75 to 80 percent of what Job said that we might construe as negative, something that God might look upon and frown upon, these things were said by Job, but said by Job to God. To God. Many of the things that Job said that was negative, Job said to God himself. For example, for those of you who are writing down verses, Job 17, or Job chapter 7, verses 17 to 20, you hear this line What is man that you should magnify him? I have sinned, what shall I do unto thee? Job 10, verse 3. Job 13, verse 24. Why do you hide your face and hold me for your enemy? Why do you treat me like your enemy? Job 16, he says that God has broken him asunder and runs upon him like a like a giant. He says that in Job 19, know that God has overthrown me. I cry out, but I'm not heard. So without without going to all of these things and spending another several hours on this, there's two ways, there's two things that we have to look at some of the statements that Job makes, and we have to distinguish the ones where Job was speaking to God versus when Job was speaking about God to his friends. Two different things. And so for a lot of folks who want to condemn Job for things that he said, many of the things that he is condemned for saying, he was speaking to God. He was being honest with the Lord. He was communicating to God in a truthful way based on what was really in his heart. And this is the thing that so many people get amiss about when it comes to Job. Somebody says here, user 960, he says, There is nothing wrong about being real. Job spoke what was real and what was plaguing his heart, and God saw this. What Job spoke to God is in how he spoke to God is one of the key elements in how it is that we learn, should learn, to quote unquote suffer well. We have a tendency to deceive ourselves and to lie to ourselves and to hide the truth about how we feel, even when it comes to how God is dealing with us in our lives. That I believe that God honored. And many things that Job expressed to God, when he talked directly to God, many of these things that he expressed were mischaracterizations about what God was doing. Job, Elihu, Job's friends, all of them got it wrong. All of them got wrong what in terms of when it came to what he was doing when he afflicted Job. But here's the thing. Should Job be condemned? Should Job be condemned for speaking his heart to his God? Should he? Is every one of us here going to say that every one of our prayers to God has been perfect and holy and righteous and asking God the very things? And no. If anyone wants to say differently, if everyone here can say, I have never had a complaint to God, then I would question whether you whether or not you know him at all. And that should make everyone here reluctant to say everything or anything, including myself. Because I know that I've had my issues with God and why he's done certain things or why he did not do certain things. But he always examines our hearts. And we are going to find out that Job's heart was always right with God, was never wrong with God. Job, Job dug down into his own soul and expressed what his heart felt. And this is what we all need to do. This is what we all need to do. And so when we look at Job, we have to examine what it is exactly or who it is exactly he's speaking to. Because there are times where he's most of the time that he speaks, he speaks to God. Some of these things that that Job says that we look at and go, oh wow, he said this. He's pushing the limits. He's going too far. But can you go too far in speaking what's genuinely in your heart with God, even though it is contrary to what we construe as principles of God? Are you going too far if you are being honest? Let me ask every one of you, Sister Savannah, are you going too far when you are speaking how you really feel about what God is doing, even though you may know this may be a problem with God?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I would say no. I mean, um I think God wants us to go to him in honesty, even when, like, even when we're in our flesh, you know, he doesn't want us to go to him like with some type of performance and and uh you know you know what I mean? He doesn't want fakery, he wants us to come to him, you know, with our dirty rags, so to speak, and say, say things, you know, that God might like that we might think that God may be angry with us about. Like, like, you know, I I've been a position before where I've spoken my heart to God, like, you know, God, I'm really angry at you right now, or you might feel like you just like what are you doing, you know? Right. Like sometimes I feel like I don't think that's too far at all.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Sister Hannah, what do you think? Same question. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Um, he wants us to come to him as babes. Like, everyone that has children knows that when kids are are not having a good time, then they're not in the moment, they'll come crying, throwing fits and stuff, and so no, and we need to come to him as we are because what are what do we think we're gonna hide from him?

SPEAKER_05 12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

He knitted our most inner beings, and in the words of King David, where can I go and hide from you, Lord? Nowhere, no, there's nothing I can hide of him. I will come to him and praise God that Holy Spirit dwells in us because I'll be praying, I'll be saying something mid-prayer, and I'm like, I'm throwing a pity party, boom, get corrected, whether it be in the moment or later. So, no, let's be babes. Like, we are his children at the end of the day, and he is a father, he's a good father.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

He is, he very much is. Brother Rodney, your thoughts. Same question.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, um, I'll honestly say that, you know, since I've been on my walk and we lost you, brother. Sorry. Yeah, getting priced on my walk, you know. You heard a lot of people saying obviously. And then now that I'm gonna find out that he doesn't come. Even now, you know, you find people, even here on TikTok, will say, Well, you shouldn't say that, right? Even, even I'll be honest with you guys, you know, even you said it when I came in here, and I've even just told my dad this, you know. I he's like, Yo, you're changing, son. And I'm like, oh, nice. Because, you know, I walk around and say, Oh, Jesus is my homeboy, that's my friend. And I think it may have even taken one of you guys or someone to say, Well, we get it, Rodney, but he's not your friend. He's your dad, he's your father. You know what I mean? So I the the spiritual maturity kicks in, or or the conviction, as I'm saying it. Being 38, I don't know when I'm supposed to grow up, but I can tell you, I woke up, went to sleep one night, and I woke up the next morning feeling totally different. You know what I mean? So that's just me being honest with him. I just had to be honest with him, man. I don't know what's going on. I'm not just dwelling on my situation, but you know, people just get shot at 34 times every day, God. You know? So I just had to be honest with him, man. What did you want me to learn from this? And ever since then, ever since I stopped asking him why'd you put me through that, what did you want me to learn from this? Things have been just falling into my lap. So that's me being real. I just get all I just to say. Just be real with him, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

So I I totally, I totally agree with this. Sister Mariah, what do you think? Same question.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Yeah, no, I I don't think that it is too far. Um, you know, something my kids recently start saying to me that when they're upset or something is, they say, I'm not happy with you. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, you know, but now that I'm thinking on the question that you're asking me, it's like if I tell them that it is not okay for you not to be happy for with me or for whatever it is that I'm doing, they're going to, they're going to go to somebody else. You know, they're going to turn away from me and go to who whoever is going to try to understand them and give them the the what it is that they're need, the comfort that they need, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Right.

SPEAKER_06 15:25

So I think that in my learning experience here with my children, that it's not too far. It is okay to say, hey, I'm not happy right now. I'm upset and I need some understanding. I need comfort. I need any anything. Just help me in this time because right now I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm mad, and I'm confused. You know, I don't think that that's an issue. Um, because if we don't turn to God for that, we'll turn to something else. You know?

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Great point. Great point. I like that a lot. Great point. Sister Lisa, your thoughts. Same question.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Um, I don't I don't believe that Job went too far, and I don't believe that I think that we um like um sis like everybody said, we we need to go to God authentically. I think if there's ever a time where you you cross a boundary and and and God's not happy with you, I mean I think Sister Hannah just said it, you get that conviction right away. And I've had that happen when, you know, I'm crying out and I I get this, okay, you know, and right away, Lord, forgive me for that. Forgive me. I'm just upset, you know, and he knows, and there's no, it's it's like it's like we're gonna hear in in Job the the correction that that God is giving Job is so gentle to me. It's beautiful to me. It's literally that's what he feels like. He's our Abba, and we have to, he knows anyway. So right, it's like someone else just said like, do we think we can really doesn't matter if we say it or not, he knows so you might as well say it, take it to him and let him every time I do, he he helps, he takes it from me, like eases it. So if if we're if we don't say anything, we're just gonna hold on to it and let it fester and get worse and worse and worse.

Elihu’s Misquotes And Exaggerations

Lamenting As Worship And Wisdom

SPEAKER_04 17:26

So and see, I I think that's a good point because I do think that um, like like Brother Max says, I've been mad at God before, and so have I. So have I. I don't see any scenario where any true believer in God, where any true believer that loves the Lord Jesus Christ, I don't see any scenario where you can be too honest. And so, and I think that for the most part, and and that what God corrects in Job, because Job did have some irreverent speech, but you will see that most of his irreverent speech was when he was speaking to God. And so, and and so I so God honors honesty. And I think Job was being honest with and Job's true heart was being exposed. Was being true, was being exposed. I mean, we've been talking about, you know, uh uh Elihu's heart. Job's heart was always right about God. Was right about God. And so, and Meg, I didn't forget about you. I didn't get to you yet. You got two more people to go, so I'm there, sister. Don't worry about it. I didn't forget about you. So the thing is, is that Elihu, he, I mean not Elihu, Job is laying out and pouring out his heart with, you know, to God. This is he he knew that his friends weren't giving him anything. And he knew that he needed to hear from his advocate. He knew he needed to hear from his redeemer. That's what he wanted to know and hear from. Because these guys, including Elihu, none of them had any answers for him. And he spoke truthfully and honestly to God, which I believe that I'm gonna that I intend to show, is that this is what, for the most part, God was correcting. Job did not need condemnation or correction for that which warranted his affliction. He did not need that. How do we know? God told us. God told us that. So the only issue that God is correcting, the only issues that God is correcting Job about has to do with how he responded to God himself. And on a few occasions, how Job spoke about God to his friends, to his friends. And so, and so, and I mean the first three, Job only spoke to them. He never spoke to Elihu, he only spoke to the first three. Never spoke to Elihu. And so, anything that that God was dealing with when it comes to Job is what he said to the other three that Elihu overheard or you know, overheard by a third party. But we can assume that he probably heard it all. I don't know, I we don't know. But what I do know is that none of them answered Job's for why he was being afflicted. None of them knew, and Job didn't know. No one knew, and God told no one, and certainly we know Satan was not in the business of telling people who he's trying to destroy and trying to get them to sever their relationship and their ties with the Lord Almighty, he's not going to aid them in coming to their senses. And so we have a situation here where, as we have always have, we have always been encouraged when we read the scriptures by our Lord Himself, he teaches us to understand that he is a God that looks at the thoughts and the intents of men's hearts. That's what he looks at. A heart that is true. And there is no scenario. And no matter what Job did or said, what he said, he laid bare before his God. He just told it based on what he felt, what was in his heart, and he spoke to his Lord. He said, This is my instance. Did he speak irreverently at times? Yes. Yes. We can attest to that. And God will correct him on these kinds of things. But none of what Job is being corrected for by God has anything to do with any sin that warranted the affliction, the afflictions that came upon him. None of these things. None of these things. He was a godly man, and he was never, there was never a point where he was not. He was never to be associated with the wicked, and he has been described in association by all four of these people. But he was not. Job never said that. When you read Elihu in in chapter 34, verse 9, what Elihu says, Job said, Job never said. He never said. In verse 20 in Job 21, verse 15, Elihu says that what is the Almighty that we should serve him. But Job was saying what that this is what the wicked men say, not Job's own personal beliefs. This is what the wicked men say. So Elihu, he misquotes Job. And Elihu puts the speech of the wicked into Job's mouth. And there are several versions or several passages where Elihu exaggerates. He embellishes what Job says. If anybody wants the list that I had that I have, I'm more than willing to share with anybody who wants it. But to give you another example, in Job 35, verse 2, Elihu says my righteousness, it says that Job says, my righteousness is more than God. Job never said that. He never said that. And so while I know that there are a variety of opinions about Elihu, and we've discussed it for sure. Um we need to understand none of these men, including Elihu, none of them had anything for Job, and none of them spoke for God as it pertains uh to Job's affliction. None of them. All of them, when they spoke about God, they spoke many things that were true. But what we have discussed over and over again is that none of them, none of them have spoken anything to Job that was true as to why uh he was suffering and going through the affliction and why he suffered such tremendous and great losses. And then Jeffrey. Same question. The question being, is there any amount of honesty um that would be unlawful to speak from our heart about what's going on with our personal situations in our relationship to God?

SPEAKER_08 25:58

I mean, I think lamenting, like when you're looking it up, I think that lamenting is a form of worship because you are being honest with the Lord. And um I think also that, like, for example, I haven't been able to have kids, and I've asked God, God, why is it that you allow people who abuse their children and throw, throw them in dumpsters and dump them off places, but then you won't give me a baby. I've asked that.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Oh, wow. Okay. Now we're cooking with gas.

SPEAKER_08 26:34

Yeah, I've I've asked him that before. And but at the same time, I had to I had to understand that I know me asking that was also a question that I had to also humble myself in at the same time and understand that God is God and He has a plan for me. And I know that all things work out in my life no matter what it is. But the fact that I did ask him that question, that's the that is one question that I specifically remember asking. But um, but I did ask him that question. And so, but at the end of the day, I told the Lord, Lord, you know, whatever you have for me, I know that it's good. And even if it's not for me to be a mom, I'm sure that you'll make me a mom in other ways, you know, a mother to babes in Christ who need somebody to comfort them and encourage them and disciple them and build them up, you know. And um, but at the same time, I think there's also a reverent fear in me that prevents me from from going too far, like for accusing God. And I that is the fear of the Lord is for real. And that and to me, that is the beginning of wisdom because even sometimes in our honesty, even in mine, I felt like there's certain things, there's a line that I shouldn't cross with the Lord. And through the word of God, I have learned that. Um, whereas I think, you know, in Job, I've learned that too. Like human knowledge, human knowledge fails, and human understanding fails. Only God has the perfect knowledge of man.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

Right.

SPEAKER_08 28:30

So, um, but yeah, I've I've definitely asked questions, but at the same time, it didn't change my faith, and I pray to the Lord that he understood my question.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Yeah, and I I agree with that. And I don't think that um I don't think that it changes your faith at all. I think it enhances it. I think it enhances it because I because we we need to understand um how the Lord sees us, and he sees us as little children. You know, we could we could be 90 years old, but to God we're babies. To him we're babies. And so and and and sometimes uh babies, children, sometimes they don't know how to express themselves. But it is our it it it is uh our careful attention to our children that helps us seek and look for ways to bring comfort to them. And God always brings comfort to his children, he always does. No matter what we agree with or disagree with in his book, one thing that we find out for sure is that God takes care of his own. He takes care of his own. That's how every Christian should understand God. He loves me, some me.

SPEAKER_08 29:56

Can I say one more thing?

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_08 29:59

And the other thing that I've done is, you know, I I have went and cried and bawled to him asking him to show up for me.

SPEAKER_07 30:16

And I told the Lord that I wasn't gonna leave. I wasn't gonna stop bugging him, I wasn't gonna stop coming to him, I wasn't gonna stop doing what I was doing in that moment until he showed up.

SPEAKER_08 30:32

And you know, I he showed up. And I would he knew the the Bible says, knock and the door will be open, seek and he shall find. And you know what? I will knock the door down until he shows up for me because I'm gonna hold him to his word. And he says that he is our ever-present help in our time of need. And I need, I need you, Lord, and I need you to show up, and I'm gonna stay right here in this moment, and I'm not gonna leave. I don't care about eating, I don't care about doing anything. I need you to show up. There was a time I didn't eat for seven days, waiting on God to show up for me because I knew they was going to, and I didn't, and you know what? He showed up, and he always will. He's never, ever, ever failed, ever, and he won't. You know why? Because he can't, and that's the truth.

Trusting God When You Cannot Know

SPEAKER_04 31:34

That's true, absolutely, sister. Absolutely, brother Jeffrey. Uh last word, and if you're willing to close us out, your last word.

Prayer, Gratitude, And Hope Ahead

SPEAKER_05 31:47

Same question. I will hang on one moment, Jonathan. I have something I want to say to Megan. Megan, you said a moment ago, and it really touched my heart about how you haven't been uh a mother. Do you not know, Megan? Do you not see that you are a spiritual mother to all of us in this group? Sometimes, Megan, the wisdom that comes out of you is absolutely astonishing. There's been times in my life I've been bankrupt for wisdom, and you said something like, bingo, my light, the light goes on in my head. You have been an example, and you have mothered us as Jonathan has fathered us into spiritual maturity. Don't you ever forget that. But we all have grown. We all have been nurtured, we all have matured because of your spiritual mothering in our lives. And I am, for one, I'm asking you to please continue to do it because we are all better for it. Okay? And that's what I want to say to you, Megan. We love you. All right, to get to your point about Job, Jonathan, is the fact that there are times in our lives when God will tell us, child, I'm gonna, part of my plan is this. This is what I'm gonna do. But there's many, many other times, Jonathan, he has said to me that I'm not gonna tell you what I'm gonna do because, quite frankly, you wouldn't understand. You don't have the capacity to understand what I'm gonna do or why I'm gonna do it. Why do you think my word from start to finish says, trust me? Trust me. Right. I don't have time to to understand all that God is doing in my life, let alone someone else's. I just have to trust, brother, that he is God. Right. And he has my best interest in heart and in his mind. And there's times that I've had, yeah, Lord, this what you're doing right now, I don't understand. In fact, if we're going to be honest, like you're telling us now, I don't like it. This stinks. God says, Okay, I hear you. Let me finish what I'm doing. It will come to you. And it does, it does, Jonathan. He is faithful to us. And so I just want to say that up to this point where we are with Job, and now God is going to begin to answer. And boy, we're going to get some good stuff here in the next few chapters. It's been amazing because it has taught us that we're going to go through dry times in our lives like Joe, Job is right now. God is going to be faithful to us, folks. Let us always, always remember that. So, having said all of that, Jonathan, uh, it's good to be with you all tonight. I'm going to get uh put together a video this weekend and get it posted about our get together coming up here in about three months in August. And I'll get some more detailed information out about that. If you haven't made your reservations, you might want to start thinking about it. It's going to be a lot of fun. All right. Heavenly Father, Lord, we just thank you tonight for your presence here and what we have learned, we have gleaned from your word tonight about who you are, what you did through Job, and how Lord, we can look at that and how he responded and be blessed by, and how you responded to him and be blessed by that. Help us to sharpen our swords, sharpen our minds, our hearts, and learn, Lord, from what Job encountered, what Job learned, what he endured during that time. And now, Lord, we know that the things are going to begin to turn in his life. You're going to ask Job a lot of questions, and those questions will answer his questions, Lord, because you're going to challenge him to understand who you are. And Father, we are just so grateful that through the cross we understand a lot of who you are. You are infinite, you are eternal. Lord, we love you from our limited perspective. We need you. Father, each and every one of us here declare loudly, clearly tonight. We need you. We want you in our lives. Thank you that you never leave us, forsake us, or abandon us. Thank you for tonight, Lord, for being here. This excellent study. Bring us back tomorrow night so we can get into your word and begin to study what you're going to say to Job. We give you thanks, glory, honor, and praise. Thank you for Jonathan and everybody here on the panel tonight. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

Amen, everybody. Amen. Is the choir available?

SPEAKER_06 37:10

Yeah, let me take my headphones out. All right. Hey guys. Good night. Good night. Good night.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

They sound like they're fading too.

SPEAKER_06 37:32

Yeah, they they are.

Romans Next And Final Goodbyes

SPEAKER_04 37:34

They're like, good night. Well, anyway, God bless everybody tonight. And look, we're we're almost getting there. We're almost done with Jove. And um looking forward to the to the next the next book and finishing this one here. But this has been a great time and a great conversation. And God bless you all. And I look forward to the next book. I think it's gonna be Romans.

unknown 38:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 38:02

I think it's gonna be Romans. So uh that's what I'm leaning. That's what I'm leaving, I'm leaning toward toward. And I'm yeah, it's it's it's it's gonna be be Romans. I'll say that right now. It's gonna be Romans.

SPEAKER_06 38:15

Hey, I'm excited. I love Romans!

SPEAKER_04 38:18

Yeah, so as soon as we get through with Job, I'll take a I'll take a beating from all of you guys on the book of Romans.

SPEAKER_05 38:24

We're gonna walk down the Romans Road.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's my favorite book. You know, Romans, Revelation, and Hebrews are like sort of my my trifecta set of books, but but um but I mean I love the Bible. We all do. And so I mean it when it comes down to it, I'll you know, I'll cop to every Bible, every Bible book being my favorite. So um, but I think Romans um is where I want to go next. And then um and we'll go from there. So so get ready to do that one and and try to get ahead of it if you can, uh, in the book, and uh, because that's what we're gonna deal with, and I'm gonna deal with that one in depth too, as well. So uh but God bless you guys. Have a great night and a great weekend, and may God bless all of you richly and may He be merciful to you continually. Have a good night.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Good night. God bless you guys. See you all tomorrow night.