LIVE DISCUSSION: "The Potter, The Clay & Reprobation" (Part 2/5)

If the words “God is sovereign” feel comforting until they touch salvation, Romans 9 has a way of bringing everything to the surface. We sit down with our panel and follow the Bible’s potter-and-clay imagery where it actually leads: God forms vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, and the clay doesn’t get a vote. That single truth challenges modern Christian assumptions about free will, fairness, and what we think God “wouldn’t do.”

Along the way we connect Jeremiah’s picture of a marred vessel with Paul’s argument that the Creator has rights over his creation, and we read Isaiah 46 as a direct claim that God’s counsel stands and he does all his pleasure. We also talk honestly about why people cling to choice language, especially when they’re desperate to “convince” someone they love. If salvation depends on our skill, our timing, or our phrasing, the pressure never ends. If salvation is of the Lord, we can witness faithfully while learning to let go of control.

We don’t dodge the hard phrases, including “vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,” and we ask what that means for assurance and self-examination. A label can’t save us, and saying “I’m a Christian” doesn’t automatically mean our hearts submit to the God of the Bible. We close by returning to the clay theme in Genesis, reminding ourselves how dependent we really are on the One who formed us from dust. If this conversation challenges you, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a review that tells us: does God’s sovereignty make you resist or rest?

Transcript

Reprobate And God’s Control

SPEAKER_05 0:00

And the reprobate, which is the rejected of the pottery that God has framed. So I'll start with Sister Vanessa. What's your opening thought so far, sister?

SPEAKER_07 0:16

I I am so excited about this because I know it's so true that the Lord, there is nothing that can break us away from him, but there's nothing that we can do to make it any different, even if we wanted to. Because we are God's children. And it doesn't matter. He whether we're his children or a reprobate person, it doesn't matter because God's in charge of everything.

SPEAKER_06 0:46

Everything.

SPEAKER_07 0:47

Everything that happens in this world.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Amen. Sister Mariah, your thoughts. And good evening.

Panel Reactions To Sovereignty

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Good evening, everyone. What a what a topic, you know. Um, I think that it's always well needed to discuss um the severity of having seared your conscience, what a hot iron, um, that to the point of no return. And um, you know, it kind of reminds me of what Paul was saying. He said that for I myself wish that I was a curse, that his brethren would be saved, you know. Um, but even knowing that, I feel like he's what he's saying is like there's nothing that I can do, even if I could give my salvation to one of them or some of them or all of them, you know, and and this just states to what you just said. God's judgment is final, and um he does so as he pleases, and and we have to be reminded that we are his creation. And if you're not created in Christ Jesus, then what are you created for? You know?

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Right. Amen. It's interesting too because you know, Jeremiah, he he he his flavor in 1911, when he talks about the broken potter's vessel that cannot be made whole again, it goes to show you how faulty these people are that go around and telling you that you can be cast into hell and later be found to come out. Whether you are being refined by the f by the flames of hell or whatever, whether it be purgatory or whether it be by the superfluous works of some dead saint. It's important to understand what Jeremiah is speaking about is that once a vessel is marred and broken, when something is when a vessel is marred or broken, speaking about individuals, they cannot be put back together again. There are no Humpty Dumptys in Christianity. When you have fallen and you have broken, there is no way to record to repair that. Sometimes people like to go down and get too strict about some of these things. But what he is saying is that there are two classes of people: sheep and goats, wheat and tares, vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy. This thing is thrown together throughout the scriptures, making it very clear that these two groups exist. Brother Jeffrey, your opening remarks, and good evening.

Trust Versus Free Will Fear

SPEAKER_04 4:13

Well, good evening, Jonathan, and good evening, panel. Yeah, Jonathan, I think you've uh uh struck into some very interesting scripture here this evening. Uh the potter always knows what it is doing when it is molding and shaping the clay. The clay has no uh input as to what the molder is going to do, it can only be uh the finished product of what the potter or the molder wants it to be. And I think a lot of times we get confused or uh thinking that God is going to make us something other than what He desires us. Well, let me let me tell you something, folks. We are gonna be the finished product that God says we are, that we're going to be. As I've said many, many times, I'll say again: God is God and we are not. We need to just say, Lord, put me on the potter's wheel and start shaping. Whatever you want me to be, that's what I'm gonna be. Then we're gonna go into the fiery furnace of trial, and we're going to be hardened and ready to be used by the potter when we come out. So, my friends, buffle your seatbelt tonight because Jonathan's gonna have some good stuff. We might even have a little bit of hellfire here tonight uh to harden us all just a little bit and make us all more battle-ready and battle-worthy for what's coming. So uh good to see you tonight, Jonathan. Good to see you tonight, panel. Glad you're all here. Welcome, and let's get into the word of God.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

All right, brother. Thank you for being here. Uh, Sister Lisa, your thoughts. And good evening.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Hey, everybody. Um well, you know, I've done a lot of thinking on this subject um because I know people that will fight tooth and nail for free will and so on and so forth. And the thing that I can the thing that it makes me consider most is that they haven't put their full trust in the Lord. I mean, we all know, we all know people who aren't born again, and I think a lot of people fear if this is true in their mind, then there's nothing that they can convince this person of. And so they put it on themselves to do the convincing. I think at one time I was in that place trying to convince my children, just tell me you believe, tell me, you know, and mom, and they were like, oh, back away. And and it wasn't until, and God again, he's so merciful and gracious with us. I think as our walk advances, we learn to trust him, we trust his will and his sovereign decree. And I know now that no matter what happens, his will is perfect. And I think where the people who who want to trust in their own choice to choose God, again, as I said, I think it's out of fear, out of fear that well, they're they don't letting go of control and giving it all to God. Do you know what I mean? I think it's if if there's somewhere that that there's free will, if it's true. If it's true, then all I've got to do is convince, I just gotta show this person the right thing, I gotta say the right thing. But if we really believe it's all God, then we we have to trust him, period. I've learned that. I trust him wholeheartedly. I don't know about the salvation of all of my children yet, but I know that they're in the hands of a mighty God and a God who is good and merciful, and I trust him. And no matter what, his will be done. And that's it.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

Sister May, your thoughts. And good evening.

SPEAKER_09 8:18

Good evening. This is fire. I I love talking about this because I think so many times people go into the Bible um with a God that they have in their head that they want to serve. And when you read, when you go in and the God of the Bible is revealed to you, there's a lot of unlearning that you have to do because it's going into the it man goes in with a man mindset because of the flesh and the way that it is. But when you meet the God of the Bible, get ready. Because this is who he is, and it's gonna destroy every single thing that you thought about God. And the reason is because it says there is a way that seems right to a man, but the path thereof leads to death. And so what the Lord, oh man, it's so beautiful. I I could talk about this all day, but what God does when we become students of the word is He tears away our flesh and reveals the worshipers, right? He says, I seek those worshipers who worship me in spirit and in truth. You better believe that when you get into the word of God, it's gonna rip you out of your flesh, every single bit of it. And so I mean, I love talking about this, it's so good. Um, and just like you said, Jonathan, this is the God of the Bible. And either you're gonna do one of two things. You're either gonna shake your fist at him, or you are gonna submit because that's all you can do. That's right, one or the other is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_06 10:02

Right.

SPEAKER_09 10:02

Oh, God wouldn't do that. I cannot tell you, Brother Jonathan, how many Christians I have heard in a conversation say, oh, God wouldn't do that. That's not God. Well, let's get into the scripture and find out who he is. Right. Because what you're saying, that's not the God of the Bible.

unknown 10:21

Absolutely.

Total Depravity And God’s Drawing

SPEAKER_09 10:22

Who are you to say what God wouldn't wouldn't do? Do you know him? Yep. I'm absolutely it fires me up, Jonathan. It's good.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

We got more to go. Sister Sean, your thoughts, sister. And and welcome. Good evening.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, good evening. I love the Potter and the Clay analogy, and I was looking at James a while back, and it says that God has no variableness, uh, neither a shadow of turning. There is no inconsistency in him. And uh, I was just looking at John, and it says how men love the darkness rather than light. There's no way that we could have chosen because of our depravity and a proclivity uh uh proclivity to sin. We couldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_06 11:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

He had to draw us. The Bible says that God draws. And so it just really, when I see people say that you choose God, it's like, oh, you God needs us. He doesn't need us.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

We need him. And I'm reminded of that every day that I need God.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Amen. Amen, sister. And that and and that that is a big point because the more you see your need of him, the more you are made sensible to your need of him, the more your gratitude and appreciative and your appreciation of him will be. You know, because as long as there's a shred of contribution on your part, you're saying that, yeah, God did a lot, but he couldn't complete it without me. And this is how Christians think today. I'm talking about Christian people. Christian people that have attacked me and have attacked some of you. They don't like the idea that we embrace and preach about a God who's who's is so is totally sovereign over our life and whether or not we come to faith or not. Salvation is in his hands alone, not ours at all. His hands alone, and our hands not at all. There is nothing that we bring to the table, we have no negotiating chips, we have no bargaining power. I don't know when the last time any of you have had a conversation with someone who was dead, but it's a pretty one-sided conversation. And so when God looks at a sinner who has not been saved, that's what he sees. A person completely incapacitated from a spiritual standpoint, dead in their sin, dead in trespasses, and without any hope in the world. Impossible to come to God in faith. By Christ's own uh admission, an absolute impossibility, and so and this should cause every unbelieving person, every sinner, this should cause this should cause an all pause and ask themselves, what must I do to be saved? And the resounding answer that we give to them is the one Christ gave. With men, it is impossible. Not bow down and say this prayer after me. It is impossible. Your opening remarks.

Romans 9 Potter And Clay

SPEAKER_08 14:23

And as I have purposed, show it, show it, so it shall stand. And in Isaiah 46, verse 8, he says, Remember this and show yourselves men. Bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old, and I am God, there is none else. I am God and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning and the ancient times, from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country, yeah, I've spoken it. I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it, I will also do it. So his will, he says he will cause those to walk in his statutes and his laws and his for his purpose. And he also says that he will give them over to the reprobate mind and cause them to believe the lies.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 15:22

It's all him.

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Yep. Brother, transparency. I think new appear for the first time. So love to hear what your input is, brother. If you got anything you want to add to the conversation, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Hey, brother, thanks for having me up. Um, yeah, man. I just very spirit-filled. Thanks for having me. I'm in alignment with you guys, man. Like I basically learned to accept. I've been kind of crushed by his mercy to real seeing this flesh and spirit, and stop giving authority to the fear, and he's just built trust. And um I like the things you guys speak because it's like nothing, the more I grow, the more I realize it's just accepting his good, his mercy, and there's nothing I can do but surrender and let go. And um, all the power is in him. And you know, the wisdom, the discernment, everything's come down to just trusting Jesus Christ. And that's what he's had the mirror in front of me is just unaliving this flesh and coming out of it, you know what I mean? And walking in the spirit. And like it's funny, I've been on this journey like four years, and you just get to this place where you realize, geez, he's good, and I'm not, you know what I mean? And you let go and you grow in the identity of him, and it came with a fire. And I've realized this crushing, this trust has been established by him, by kind of having no option but trusting him. And it's like all mercy to get me to this point where I'm learning to just let go and let God and trying to let go of that steering wheel and trying to let him finish this work, you know, and and bring that light in. So thanks for letting me share. Amen. But I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Hang around as long as you like. Appreciate you being here. Um, Sister Meg, yeah, one more thing you want to say before I move on.

SPEAKER_09 17:14

Yeah, so in regards to the, you know, what's really interesting when we're talking about the the clay, right? The lump is the same lump. So the lump is the fallen, fallen man. And so, in in I guess in the imagery, you could you could state that he pulls from that lump vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor, but the lump was the same. And so it destroys this idea that God chooses based on somebody's foreseen goodness, because that was never the case. You see, and and and or like God looks down the corridor of time and says, All right, you're gonna believe you're not you are that just blows my mind.

unknown 17:59

Right.

Vessels Fitted For Destruction

SPEAKER_05 18:02

Yep, good point. And I'm definitely gonna get to that point. That's that's a very important point that has to be addressed. We're certainly gonna deal with that one, and so it's a good one. But uh in Romans 9, let me read what Paul says in Romans 9 again, just to refresh it. He says, Neighbor, oh man, who are you that replies against God? Shall you, the thing formed, say to him that formed it, Why have you made me this way? You know, now see, and this is an important thing because I want you to understand, think about this, because many people will level their arguments at us and say that, okay, if we believe what these words are saying, then we are believing that God made men robots. Now, regardless of whether or not you want to go with that imagery and run with the whole robot imagery, which is easy to refute and overthrow. The fact of the matter is, God made each one of us to be what he wanted us to be, either a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. And I'm gonna point these things out. You know, but he so he says here, he goes, Name but oh man, who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why have you made me this way? And the answer is no. You we we can't ask God that he does what he wants and he does not answer to man, and this is something that the greater part of Christianity doesn't understand and is unwilling to accept, and yet it is a fact. And he says, Doesn't the potter, meaning God, doesn't he have power over the clay? Well, what good is his power if you think you're a robot? If you think he's saying that you're a robot, he's saying, I own you, I made you and I own you, and I made you for my purposes. This is why it should it should cause a a 10-point earthquake in the heart of every person who hears these words. Because you want to know that he has made you a vessel of honor. And how do you know? Because your heart submits in humility to his son, he you appeal to to give you forgiveness and to impart to you righteousness, having him take it upon himself your sin. But if you think that because you refuse to, or because you want to reject the only way that God has made and rendered by Christ your salvation, you go, Well, I don't like that, but I'm gonna live this way and do what I want to do. And it's not fair if you condemn me, God, because I won't repent. See, the thing about it is these folks don't understand that they are vessels of wrath. Fitted, fit it. Made or outfitted for destruction. And this is what Paul says. He says, has not the potter, like Megus talking about, has not the potter power over the clay out of the same lump, out of the same lump, to make one vessel of honor and another of dishonor. Paul is posing a question, a rhetorical question. The answer is evident. The answer is a result of rationale and reason if you understand God to be what God must be. Him to be God, which is absolutely sovereign over his creation, especially men, and in particular when it comes to whether or not they are saved. And that is in his hands to do. So he says, Does not the potter have power over the clay? The answer is absolutely he does. And what can he do? He can take out of the same exact lump and make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. And what this means is that all of humanity, we are all made from the same stuff. It has nothing to do with intellect or vision or desire or energy or any particular attraction that we may have or that we may think we have that is worthy of God's favor. He sees a massive lump of clay that is called man, humanity. That's it. He sees clay. Now imagine the imagery that he's given you. You go and you sit in front of a potter, he has a potter's wheel, and he throws a bunch of clay, he just drops it on the on the wheel, and starts spinning, and starts fashioning and shaping. And he has made two types of what we call people. He calls vessels. And he distinguishes these vessels as vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. And he says, Does a potter, does not the potter have power over the clay? And can the clay respond to the potter and go, you know what? I don't like what you did to me here. The clay has no ability to shape itself. The clay has no will, has no reason, no rationale. It doesn't know what's best for itself. And even when it's made, it can't tell whether or not it is a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. I'm sure that many of you who are believers like me, sometimes we wonder, are we vessels of honor? We know we're saved, but sometimes things come up and bubble up in our hearts that make us wonder sometimes. I know I do. Sometimes it's frightening when we understand how significant the sin is. We need to understand, like a lot of those of antiquity used to always say, we need to understand the sinfulness of sin. When you do, you will appreciate the goodness of God. You will understand and magnify his mercy in a way that you will never understand. We need to understand just how sinful sin is. We need to make them understand the wages that are going to be demanded by God for sin committed against him on top of the fact that these souls rejected his son. That is the line that man has crossed, has the ability to cross and never return from. And that is going to be the that is going to be the result of the greater part of mankind. So Paul says, what if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power known endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath that he says were fitted for destruction? Fitted. Let me talk about that for you a few, a couple seconds here. Now, many of you ladies have been married. Many of you will probably get married. Same thing with many of you men. And what typically happens when somebody's getting married, you have you have the bridegroom and the bride, and you have the bridal power or the bridal party and the best men and whatever you call, you know, the guys that work out, and they all go get tuxedos and they all go get their dresses, they go to the tailor, and they get these things fitted.

SPEAKER_06 26:53

Fitted.

SPEAKER_05 26:59

God makes some men, the greater part of humanity, fitted for destruction. Read Romans 9 22. It's not me saying this, it's what the word of God says. I don't care if you like it or not, it's what the word of God says. I choose to believe he's right and you're wrong. If you have a hard time with these words, because these are not the kind of words you're gonna hear in the average pulpit today.

SPEAKER_06 27:40

You're not. It's not gonna be standard fair in terms of modern day preaching.

SPEAKER_05 27:54

You're not gonna hear a lot about how God has made vessels of honor. That part you like. I'm a vessel of honor. I'm a faithful servant, I'm a believer. We don't have a problem with that. We look at the scriptures and we prove it. Yes, there are vessels of honor. But somehow we we reject the other part where it says that there are vessels of dishonor, vessels fitted for destruction. You should be asking yourself, why is the guy talking about this? Does he want nobody to listen? That's exactly what I want in a manner of speaking. I do want people to listen and to hear. But I do know this: that this is something that most people will not hear. And this is something that only a true believer, prior to salvation or after, will understand. And what I mean about before salvation, I'm talking about those who were chosen to be saved. At some point, they are going to hear that inward call of God's effectual grace by the Holy Spirit, and they're going to respond because they were chosen in him, because they they were taken out of that lump of clay, and they were made vessels of honor. Man, this is what we have to deal with. He says in Romans 9 23, that he might make known, you know, he talks about how he suffered long with the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy. Listen, which he had afore or before prepared to glory. He prepared you being a vessel of mercy. You are prepared to fulfill that function by his design, and this was done so by him before you were born, before the creation of this earth, an eternity path. You belong to him. If you are saved now, it is because you always belonged to him. You were his before the earth, the foundation of the earth was laid, you were his. Paul is quoting Isaiah. So if Paul got Christ wrong and he's citing Isaiah, then was Isaiah wrong when he's when he prophesied about Christ.

SPEAKER_06 31:40

We have to ask ourselves these things.

Self Examination And Clay Origins

SPEAKER_05 31:45

But we have what Paul is telling us about this potter and the and the clay of the potter and the formation of the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath. This is by God's doing. He's done this. And we're gonna get we're gonna get somewhere with this. He points out that there are two types of vessels: vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. And I'm gonna say something. Just because you say you're a Christian doesn't mean you're not a vessel of wrath. So, Christians, we have to be mindful of our own hearts. Because there's a lot of people out there that call themselves Christians that hate what I'm talking about right now. They hate this doctrine that God is in charge, that he is the one that is sovereign over our sin and over us. And we ought to be thankful for that. We ought to be thankful. We need to examine ourselves, as Sister Meg says. We need to always be in communion and fellowship with the Lord and with his people. We need to be always in a constant state of meditation and introspection, examining our own hearts, finding assurance in what we understand about our God, seeking for opportunities to glorify him wherever we may find them. In Genesis chapter 2, in keeping along with this imagery of clay, well, what was man created? What was Adam made from? Clay, the dust of the earth. In Genesis 2, verse 7, and the Lord God formed man.