LIVE DISCUSSION: "The Potter, The Clay & Reprobation" (Part 3/5)

You can feel it in your bones when someone tells you, “God did his part, now you do yours.” It sounds fair. It also quietly turns the gospel into a contract. We go back to the Bible’s blunt imagery of the potter and the clay and ask a simple question: if God forms us from dust and gives us breath, why would we imagine we contribute the decisive part of our salvation?

We walk through Genesis 2, Job’s “made me as clay” language, and Paul’s teaching in 2 Corinthians 4 that God must shine light into dark hearts so we can see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. That “light” is not self-generated motivation. It is sovereign grace. We also talk about the “treasure in earthen vessels” theme and why it is meant to destroy boasting and create real Christian assurance, the kind that steadies you when you think about death, fear, and whether you have done enough.

Then we tackle the tension point: obedience. Yes, Christians obey, but we are not saved by our obedience. We are saved by Christ’s obedience, credited to us through faith, because “It is finished” means the work is actually done. Finally, we address the doctrine many avoid saying out loud: reprobation, vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and why God’s sovereign election cannot be discussed honestly without it.

If you’ve ever wrestled with control, surrender, assurance, or works-based salvation, listen through and share it with a friend who needs clarity. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: where do you feel most tempted to add to grace?

Transcript

Formed From Dust By God

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Look what God is saying here. As early as Genesis chapter 2, man was created by the ground, the dirt, the clay. This is what he's talking about. And he formed Adam. Adam didn't get wasn't formed, and then when he was given breath of life, wake up and say, Lord, you know what? I don't like your design. I don't like how you made me. Can I get a redo? Why wasn't I involved in the discussion in your design sessions?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

That's not what Adam did.

Job Confirms The Clay Reality

God Shines Light In Hearts

SPEAKER_05 0:48

Why is it that people believe that when it comes to spiritual matters, you can do any more than what Adam did when it comes to your your salvation? But yet, this is the issue. We've been in the book of Job for since November. Listen to what is said in Job chapter 10. Your hands have made me and fashioned me together round about. Yet you do, yet, yet thou dost destroy me. Remember, I beseech you, that you have made me as clay, and will you bring me into dust again? So Joe, Job and Elihu and his friends, they all understood that we were formed by God. We are just clay. We're just clay. We're not special. Not to him. You might think you are yourselves, but we're not special to him. The only thing that makes us special is when he makes us special. Only he does that. He makes us saints, he sanctifies us, he makes us holy in him. He gave us, in particular, those who believe his son to save us and become a ransom for us. He sent his son to reconcile us to himself. And he took the most extreme measure possible. He gave up his one and only son so that you can be saved. Not so that you can brag about how you saved yourself with his cooperation. We did nothing. We did nothing except receive a gift. A gift that was that was irrevocable. A gift that was objectively, objectively imposed. God objectively, objectively impose his will upon us in order that we can be saved, because left to ourselves, we would never come to him. Never. 2 Corinthians chapter 4, verse 7. It begins in verse 6 by saying, Paul says, For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts. In the same way, our hearts were darkened, he shined in our hearts, just like the light that shone out of darkness. Why? To give light to the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Listen, in order for you, in order for you to be able to see Christ and to see the glory of God in the face of Christ, you need to be given light in order to obtain that knowledge. You need to be given light in order to have that knowledge whereby you are able to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Which means the question that needs to be asked and answered is how you come to receive this light of knowledge. Is it something you do or is it something done to you that enables you, therefore, to see the face of Christ?

SPEAKER_03 5:16

It is not you. It is not your will.

Assurance When God Does It

Christ’s Obedience Counts For Us

SPEAKER_05 5:21

It is not anything that you decided because you reason together within yourself. It's something that God gives to you, and his Holy Spirit is given to you. And when that happens, the light of God's truth is opened up in your heart and in your mind, and now you're able to see with your eyes and hear and understand with your ears. It's a beautiful thing. Verse 7. And it says that we have this treasure in earthen vessels, clay vessels. So that the excellency of the power of the power may be of God, listen, and not of us. If anybody that you ask how they came to Christ, if they begin with I, me, or my, something is wrong either with their salvation or with their ability to articulate what it really is. Because he says that the knowledge that we are given, the light of the knowledge that we're given by God that makes us see the glory of God in the face of Christ, this is trapped as a treasure in earthen vessels, meaning us, men, men and women who believe. Why? So that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. So what he is saying is this that the knowledge of these truths, the knowledge of these truths about the glory of God being seen in the face of Christ can only be made to you by God, given to you, so that you can see the excellency, that the excellency of the power may be of God, not of us. In other words, this happens so that you glorify God for getting this understanding, not so that you can go around saying that you came to this conclusion on your own. It's not of us. It is all of God. And even though here it is not overly or explicitly dealing with the potter imagery, but it continues the whole theme of this of this uh clay vessel uh theme because it talks about how this knowledge and this light has been it has become a treasure that is in earthen vessels, which is what we are. When you see yourself in God's hands wholly and completely and totally, doesn't that feel safer? Doesn't that give you the grounds of assurance? Doesn't it make you vanquish all fear for what happens to you when you die? Because I don't understand how to believe otherwise provides a greater degree of comfort. Well, he saved me today, but I still have all this to do in order for me to be saved. I had a man write back to me speaking against one of my posts. And he says that, well, yeah, we're saved by Christ, but we're also saved by obedience. And his whole idea is that, yeah, Christ did what he did, and now we, as his servants and believers, we need to be obedient, and that will complete our salvation. And he said that salvation is not complete until we've been obedient. Well, I have to disagree with him and anybody who believes like that. That is silliness. But let me clear it up for everybody here to understand. We are saved by the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ. And we are saved by obedience. However, we are not saved by our obedience. We are saved by Christ's obedience, which was imputed to our account. So, yes, obedience to the law of God is what needs to be made manifest in order for our salvation to be legit and to be actually actual reconciliation. But what we need to understand, it is not our obedience that has anything to do with it before or after salvation. It is only by the obedience of Christ Himself that is put onto our account. Just like our sin was put on him completely and all of it, his righteousness was completely put upon all of us. This is what we need to understand. We don't, there's nothing for you to do. He is going to work out whatever it is you're going to do for his glory, because even those works that you do after coming to the faith are works that he does in and through you. But make no mistake about it. We do need to be saved. We are saved by obedience, but we are saved by the act of obedience of Christ and his works alone. His works before God, before his father, have become our works. And we put our faith in his works as being sufficient for our salvation. And so, like Brother Transparency said, it is faith. We have faith that his works were sufficient for our salvation. If you are saying that there are still works that you need to do after having been saved, then there's no point in having faith in the finished work of Christ because his work evidently wasn't finished unless until you complete it. I could go all day with this. I love it. We really don't have anything to do but to believe and trust and to depend on the finished work of our Savior. And nothing can be added to what he's done. There's nothing supplemental to his work. There's nothing that man can add to give it more spice or give it more pizzags. What he did totally satisfied what God required from us in order to be reconciled to him. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, did it all. Brother Jeffrey, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 12:03

Yeah, Jonathan, just uh a quick comment and a question here. When Jesus was on the cross and he uttered the words, it is finished. Jonathan, what part of that do we not understand? Right there, he said, the work is done. I have done the work necessary for your salvation. Now you must receive it. That's all part of it. We have it. What I'm saying is, how does that get it? It's so simple. It's so simple. It is finished. He did it all. All we have to do is just sift into it. And yes, there are those, Jonathan, that today want to make something of the gospel other than what it is. They want to try to attach works to it, as you have taught us so many times. Does it work? It is a gift of grace through faith by him that brings us to the Lord and restores uh fellowship back to God the Father and nothing else. He defeated death. Thank you, blazing Rose Kelly. He defeated death. The war is over. It is finished. It is done. We are triumphant in him. Hallelujah. Amen. Sister May, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

One verse to back you up. This is John chapter 3, verse 27. It says, John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You can receive nothing unless it is granted. Nothing at all.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And so we get, you know, so when we look at this these themes here, it should heighten, it should heighten our gratitude and our appreciation for what our Lord has done. So, you know, when we look at all these passages that I cited so far, we're dealing with this clay potter metaphor type thing that we're talking about, we understand a few things. One, that God's absolute, he's absolute sovereign over all his creation, over all creation. And I don't think anyone will argue about every other aspect of creation. The arguments come in when it comes to the obstinate person who is trying to rationalize these things through and can't seem to come to an equitable conclusion. God's absolutely sovereign over all creation, especially humans. Especially humans, especially our dependents. When it comes to our dependence, especially when it comes to our frailty, he knows that there is nothing in us, being that the carnal mind is that enmity with God that would make us desire Christ. He had to show us the beauty of Christ. We had to see the beauty in him being crucified. We have to see the beauty and joy in the crucifixion. It doesn't make sense unless the Holy Spirit shows you this. We have to see the beauty in his blood being shed on Calvary.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

We have to see the beauty in him being spit on and be somebody might be going, what kind of how you how is beauty in that?

SPEAKER_05 15:42

That's something only the Holy Spirit can make you understand. Because I wonder how many of you, if I asked the question, would you rather would you rather not have had our Lord and Savior do what he did and still and lose your own soul? Just so that would have to happen to him. Would anybody here say that they would prefer that?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Anybody? Absolutely not. No.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

We needed him to go to that cross. We needed him to be bruised for us. We needed him to suffer when he suffered.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

We needed him to go through this humiliation. We needed him to have his body broken for us.

SPEAKER_05 16:47

We needed him to have to subject himself to wicked hands. Without any of these things, we don't live. We have not life. We have no salvation, no justification, no reconciliation, and certainly no glorification anywhere in the future to be seen. And we don't need to cry and shed tears for the sorrow and suffering he went through.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Because guess what? He's alive.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

He's alive forevermore. And because he is alive, we who believe are alive. And so we're grateful. Imagine being in a situation where we have to be thankful. Have you ever gone to a funeral and said, I am glad this person is gone? Don't answer that out loud. I'm sure somebody might have somebody they might say that about. But you see what I'm saying? But with Christ, it's different. And what makes it acceptable for us to be thankful for what he did? The fact that he has risen. The fact that he has risen. He himself said, I lay down my life and I will take it up again. And he did. The temple that all these dispensational people are looking for has already been raised. Christ is that temple. He is that temple. He subjected himself to wicked hands. They destroyed that temple.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

And like he said, on the third day, I will take it up again. Sister Shana, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah, and I was just reminded of Isaiah 53 when he says that he shall see the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied. That's how great God's love is, that God's pleasure is in the outcome of redemption. Right? Because justice requires that sin be addressed and that the evil cannot be ignored. But love requires mercy and restoration instead of destroying us. That's how great God's love is.

SPEAKER_05 19:48

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, sister. And I love that verse because it says that, like you just quoted, that the Messiah, the Son of God, it says that he, in the verse that Sean just quoted, it says, He shall see the travail of his soul. Now, we know that the road to salvation and that those who are on it is a very narrow road. A road that only few can find. And the greater part of humanity is going to be lost and thrown into outer darkness where there's weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for eternity.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

You have to ask yourself, can that be true?

SPEAKER_05 20:42

And it also be true that the Lord Jesus Christ shall see the travail of his soul. Think about that for a second. Because it says that he shall see, like the sister just quoted, he shall see the travail of his soul. His name was given to him because the angel told Joseph and Mary that he shall save his people from their sins. Is there any of his people that aren't saved, that aren't going to be saved? That's impossible. So then how do we explain anybody being in hell if he wants everybody to be saved? You see, so this is what we this is why the Christian understands what it means when it when God refers to himself as a potter and we are just the clay. Because he can do what he wants. Sister Mae, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

To back you up on another verse, when you when you were telling, you when you were saying that Jesus had the power to to to take his life and bring it back up again. Listen to what it says in John chapter 19, 30. It says, When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished. And he bowed his head and gave up the ghost. See, when I see this verse, this completely and utterly shows that he had the power over life and death. What person do you know can speak, give, bow their head, and give up the ghost? This is exactly what he did. He had control. This is all controlled action. He spoke, he bowed his head, and he gave up the ghost.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Right. It was all done on his turn. Amen. His turn is his time for sure.

SPEAKER_07 22:47

I just think that people today they are taught from a child not to understand the Bible. I really believe this. But if they read it, let the Holy Spirit work. Right, right. You know, you have to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what the word says. Because men teach wrong things. And I do believe in my whole heart that that is why a lot of people today do not understand the word of God.

SPEAKER_05 23:21

Amen, sister. Amen. Sister Candy, go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 23:29

You know, I look back to Job on this, and what you've been saying so far has just like in chapter 38 and 27. Man, does it not speak to exactly what we're talking about? Uh just for a little context on 38, he says, How thou hast thou commanded the morning since the days and caused it, caused the day spring to know his place, that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it. It is turned as clay to the seal, and they shall stand as a garment. But hold on, I went back to twenty-seven and it says verse sixteen, Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare a raiment as the clay, he may prepare it, but the just shall put it on, and the innocent shall divide the silver. Now Jeremiah six thirty says, Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them. That was so fire whenever I like seen that a while ago. I was like, Oh man, and then you started saying all this other stuff that kind of went right with it. I was like, Oh Lord, you gotta be wanting me to share this, right? Just saying. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

That's good. That's excellent. Anyone else want to jump in before I move on?

Surrender And Sanctification Over Time

SPEAKER_09 24:48

No, that was good, bro. Thank you. Like it's funny because it's stuff I know, but you're saying it in a way that, oh, it's it stirs something, and I gotta process why. You know, I gotta kind of like, whoo, it's all truth, it's all fire. It's like that letting go of all control still. You know what I mean? In any form of it, my heart still may I don't know. It's like I know he's doing everything. I've had to grow into that, like an acceptance. Everything's been like accepting that he's doing it. You know what I mean? And I think it's just like good timing to be here because I think months back I might have argued with this, but I'm not now, if that makes sense. So I'm kind of like processing what's going on in my heart, but it's all true. So, you know. Um you know, you that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Well, you know what?

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Listen, I'll tell you something else. You know, this this this is we we we never stopped learning this. We never stopped learning. There's always a new level of of the heights of of the Lord's glory that we just can't imagine. And just when you think that you you you've you've gained something, you realize how much more there is to be gained. And that's that goes along with it understanding.

SPEAKER_09 26:09

Can I ask you this, brother? Uh I think I'm sitting there going, like, everything you're saying, like, I've been going through more, like, I do have had to go through kind of to let go. Like, I used to think I was in control of my life before Christ. And then since coming to Christ, no matter what, I realized like he's in control, and there's like a crushing, I guess. And I guess that's all we're doing, is it's like allowing him to strip it or something, is all I would say is do we allow he just does it, dude? He kind of just does it. I'm just processing what you're saying because it really is there's something to it like where you start to see you identify in him, and that comes with some kind of refinement process, right? And I'm trying to it's like, yeah, it's all good. You know what I mean? It's like that's really all it is, though. I realize as I go on the journey is letting go, is what I feel like it is, like growing in gratitude, having to forgive, having to let go and surrender this flesh, you know?

SPEAKER_04 27:19

It is it is that, brother.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

And and you know, the the John the Baptist put it the best way. I must decrease and he must increase. That's what you're describing. You're you're describing you're describing the process of decreasing yourself and increasing him. And and and and and that's what it's about. And and that part, you know, our decreasing. Here's the funny thing. Our decreasing that is our sanctification. Decreasing ourselves from ourselves and and and and increasing in him. And this is difficult because men uh we have built into our DNA. We don't like taking things, we don't like taking charity. Especially men, we are born to not take charity, not take charity. And see, you can't be saved without taking all of it. Charity, God's charity. He gave his son because there's nothing we could give that is needed and required to stand before him unless his son comes and does what our savior did.

SPEAKER_09 28:35

That's what I mean, bro. That crushing of the heart. Like, that's what this is, like a crushing, that's what it's been for me, is growing into accepting how good he is. Yes, right, brother. Letting go of like thinking I'm good. And the more I grow, I'll try to hold on to some form of righteousness or something. And I think that's what that battle is, right? And um yeah, all those things have been hard, brother. You see it. Amen. Thanks for hearing me out.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Oh, no problem, no problem, brother. Brother Pack.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Good evening, my good evening. Our flesh likes to kick and scream along the way, though, right? When we're decreasing and and Christ needs to increase, our flesh doesn't like that at all. One of the things that I don't know if you struggled with this when you were a young Christian, any of you guys. Maybe, maybe you'll know what I'm talking about. But there's a verse in the Bible um that says it's not what goes into a mouth man's mouth that makes him a queen, but it's what comes out. And when I first read that, I didn't like what I read at all. Because you know what that means? It means the world is not the problem. It's not, you know what I mean? It's not a bunch of bad people out in the world that's the problem. It's not the strip club down the street, it's not the bar around the corner that's the problem. The problem's in you.

SPEAKER_09 30:00

I keep, yeah, bro. I keep thought like I could change everything. Uh I'm pointing at everything, and and it's he's changing me, my heart, my perception. He's changing me, and it's not these external things changing. It's and yeah, it is all him, and yeah, amen. Thanks for hearing me out.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Hey, are you done? A cleaning from the from the inside out, man, from the inside out.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

So now I'm gonna take a little bit of time, you know, as we you know get closer to getting this thing done, but I gotta deal with the elephant in a room. An elephant in a room is reprobation, something that people don't like to talk about. And and and but it has to be discussed, and it also heightens our appreciation for the gift of salvation that we have been given, and it should also move us to be more urgent and serious about our efforts to bring other souls to the faith. And so the doctrine of reprobation, which is that God by his sovereign will, and this is important to understand, God by his sovereign will, his sovereign decree, he passes over some and ordains them to condemnation. Now, this is not double predestination. You have a lot of people out there that want to give things like this a name so that they can attack that by uh but they what they will so that they can associate you to the label, and then they attack the label, and as a result, they think they're gonna rid themselves of having to deal with conformity to the doctrine itself. You cannot have God's sovereign election without there being reprobation. He doesn't elect every single person. If he did, then there would be no repro there would be no reprobation, and there would be no hell where men would be. All men would be universally saved, and that would also mean that there would be no real necessity to preach the gospel. But the fact is, there is something that we refer to as reprobation, which is clearly taught in the word of God, and is clearly taught through this idea, this thing that we're talking about, about vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and the potter and the clay. If you have vessels of honor, then that means there are vessels of dishonor. Or either all are vessels of dishonor or all are vessels of honor. We know those two scenarios are not true. There are vessels of honor and there are vessels of dishonor. This is a biblical fact. Nobody should have to argue this case. It's plain. And the images that we've already looked at so far, they're meant to make to take to take away this idea of there being symmetry between election and reprobation. Here's what I mean. When you think of something symmetrical, you're what you're saying.