LIVE DISCUSSION: "The Potter, The Clay & Reprobation" (Part 5/5)

Barabbas was guilty, and he still walked free. That single detail forces a question most of us would rather dodge: if a pardon is never owed, what does it mean when God shows mercy to some and passes by others? We start there and work carefully through election and reprobation, stressing that reprobation is not God “adding evil” to anyone, but God withholding rescuing grace and letting justice run its course for people already fallen in Adam. 

We also push back on a soft view of salvation that treats the cross like paperwork. Justice must be served, and that is why the cost matters. Sister May and others underline a central claim: Jesus did not come to make salvation possible, he came to save effectually and he never fails. Not one drop of his blood is in vain. That leads into a vivid picture of effectual calling through Lazarus, where God calls the dead by name and brings real life, not a mere opportunity to choose life. 

From Romans 9 to the potter and the clay, we talk about humility, assurance, and why gratitude should replace boasting. We also name the uncomfortable implications for man-made religion and any system that makes someone other than God the determiner of destiny. The conversation ends on a sober warning about judgment, a reflection on hell’s door being “locked from the inside,” and a closing prayer for perseverance and for persecuted Christians around the world. 

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Transcript

Barabbas And The Meaning Of Pardon

SPEAKER_04 0:00

He was guilty. Not only was he guilty, he was guilty of the very crimes that Christ was to be crucified for. Insurrection and sedition. Barabbas was guilty of that. He was pardoned. But you don't see nothing in the story about letting all other people who are guilty of these crimes to go free. They had the law that allowed them at this time to f to let one go, to give one pardon. And they didn't give it to Christ. And they were not under any obligation to set free or pardon anyone at all. But certainly no more than the one. And so you have this situation where the best way to understand the reprobate is how God simply passes by those who were already dead and chooses not to raise them from the dead. He doesn't allow them to participate in that first resurrection, and he's under no obligation to do that. And that first resurrection is the new birth, us being born from above. Election is God's active choice. And reprobation, in the first act of it anyway, is God's passing over others. But when it comes to those who are reprobate, he simply lets them go and take the natural course of justice that was prescribed by him for all of humanity. And God does not need to infuse evil in anyone to enhance their condemnation or to or to add to that. He just withholds it. And he can do that because he's God. He's under no obligation to save any. And yet, he chose to save some, me and you and others. And as I said, reprobation is not as symmetrical with it's not symmetrical with election at all. It's not. It is a negative work whereby God simply passes by and lets them succumb to the judgment that they are due, that all of us are due. We are the ones who are saved, who received mercy and grace at his hands. And we are thankful for that. And it pushes this idea of gratification and or or uh being grateful for what our Lord has done. When you see, when you understand these things, it will make you see God in a whole different light. God is not the author of sin. And what this is showing when it comes to the reprobate is God's omission of acting. He doesn't have to. So he's not infusing anything into the person who's being reprobated. He's not doing anything to enhance their their their reprobation. No, he's giving them what we all deserve. But no one deserves grace, no one deserves his mercy. That's something that he chooses to give to whosoever he wills.

SPEAKER_06 3:45

Um the pet and the meg.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Right? Well, God is perfectly just. God is perfectly righteous. And so he just doesn't sign a pen and make you elect. Justice must be served. And the thing you need to understand about election is you were bought at a great price. Our God entered his own creation and was beat beyond recognition, carried across to Calvary, and died on that cross for your sin. There was a great suffering and a great price that was paid. This is not like American presidents that just sign a paper. Okay. He paid the ultimate price for your election.

Effectual Salvation Not Mere Possibility

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Amen, brother. Amen. Sister May, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Well, and see, and I think that's what the mistake that people make is, Pat, is that people think that the Lord Jesus Christ came here to make salvation possible. That's not what he came here for. He came here to effectually save his people, and he did. He's not a failure. He's not out here freestyling, begging people to come to him. He comes and he saves, and he does it effectually. And just like um Sister Barbara said one time, and this is stuck in my head, not one drop of Jesus' blood was in vain. Not one drop. And and as far as like election, right? If if the Lord says he calls us by name, just like he did Lazarus out of the grave. So if we see the world as a humongous graveyard and all of us are dead, and he goes through the graveyard and he rises those from the grave, that is on his account. The word of God says the dead know nothing. So they didn't even know that those who were risen were risen because the dead know nothing. He is the one who saw your name in that grave and says, Jonathan, come forth. Lisa, come forth, Vanessa, come forth. Those are when he says your name, you come forth. That is the effectual calling of God. It's so beautiful, Jonathan. I'm so glad we talked about this tonight. Amen.

Potter And Clay Mercy And Wrath

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Amen, sister. That's good. Good words there. Absolutely. So at the end of the day, you have two pathways that come from the same origins or the same starting point. And all begin, all of humanity, all of humanity begins in the same fallen condition. And in that condition, we all have a debt that is to be paid to God for our sin. But what God does, like Sister Meg just says, He effectually brings some to salvation. And those some that he brings to salvation, he is under no obligation to pardon. He's under no obligation. And so the big thing we need to understand here that I'm trying to get people to understand is this just because he has chosen to pardon some doesn't tie his hands and bind him to a responsibility to save all. And that's what we need to get away with. The potter is the one who controls what he puts together on that potter, that potter's wheel. What he forms, whether it be one for honor or whether it be one for dishonor, he does whatsoever he wills with what he wants to create out of this out of these vessels of clay, these earthen vessels, which is what we are. Others continue willingly in their sin toward destruction. Notice that in spite of who of God saving us, it hasn't stopped the procession of sin committed by all the other people who have not been saved. And it is our desire to see as many of those people plucked out of the fire as possible. Because we don't know who God's elect are, we preach to all. We preach and we share the gospel to everyone because we want to see everyone, as many as people as God has called saved. And so we share the gospel, and our goal is to seek to win souls for Christ. So it's an important thing to understand the just the difference that lies in God's gracious intervention and not human initiative. The difference lies with God, it's with Him and Him alone. Him alone. It has nothing to do with human merit, human initiatives, or anything like that. Human will, the exertion, desires, reason, intellect, none of those things come into play. All of us are on equal footing standing before God. But who he shows mercy to, he does so of his own accord and by his for his own reasons, and none of us know why. I don't know why he chose me. I don't know why. And I know every one of you will say the same thing. Why me, why me, why me? We wonder this sometimes, and we're thankful because we understand the magnitude of what has been done to us, but we also understand the magnitude of what has been done to us in light of what happens to those who were not given this grace. And it's also something that is not to promote boasting on our part, as if we had anything to do with our salvation, because we didn't. We brought nothing to the table but sin and sin alone. And unless God shows mercy, every person who does not receive it will have to stand before God on just grounds to give an answer for their sin, and they will be forced to pay a wage for their sin that will take all of eternity to pay back because God Himself is eternal. The only way around this, the only way around this is to turn to Christ and fall upon your face and worship and humility at his feet. The only way.

Key Scriptures On Judgment And Faith

SPEAKER_08 11:31

Yeah. Um just to taking notes and and writing things down, so I'm just gonna run through it. So basically, for as one man's disobedient, many were made sinners, and one man's obedience, Jesus Christ, many will be made righteous. For God concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon them all, because there's no partiality with God. So when you present yourself as a slave of obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in our death, or obedience resulting in righteousness and everlasting life. Because his affections abound the more as he remembers the obedience of how you received him with fear and trembling, that by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all leading to obedience of faith. And it will be every soul that does not take heed to the prophet Jesus, speaking of Jesus, shall be utterly destroyed. Yet he who believes in the Son has eternal life, and he who doesn't obey the Son will not see life. I haven't finished my notes, but you know, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by sanctif by the sanctifying work of the Spirit to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood, may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God. And if it begin with us first, what will be the outcome of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Amen, sister. Amen. Good word, good last word there. Sister Vanessa, last word.

SPEAKER_07 13:25

This has been great. I love talking about this stuff. Um, you know, God, I am just so grateful. I can't hardly say anything right now. I'm just always so grateful for you know what he has done for me and chosen me and gives me what gives me everything I need. I don't worry. I don't, you know, even with my children, I don't worry anymore. And so, you know, it's just like it's left in God's hands, not mine. And the power of the Holy Spirit is one of the best things that we have. So comforting. I don't know what that sound is. I don't either. But anyway, I'm just you know, it wasn't for me. There ain't nothing here but me. So I wasn't going ching, ching, ding. Anyways, I just want to say I love everybody and thank God for all of us. You know, thank God for all of us.

unknown 14:34

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Just a minute, last word for tonight.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

I just love this study. I think I think what it does for me is is it really, you know, once you get go from this and then you get into the atonement, it's it's so powerful because the only thing that a believer can do at that moment is literally fall to your knees in gratefulness for what the Lord has done. And I'm I'm just thankful. And to know, you know, when you really think deep about it, you know, when when the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Thomas, his his holes and his hands were still there. And this is when Jesus was in his glorified state, and not and it it brings the understanding to me that the payment that he made for us was eternal because he's the only one that's gonna be in heaven that has those marks in his in his side and in his hands and his feet, and it was great, and I think it's just gonna be a reminder to us all why we're there, and it's nothing but his grace and nothing but his kindness and his mercy that he's given us. So it's so good tonight, Jonathan. Thank you so much for bringing this out. And my prayer in this is that people really get to the root of all of this and and go back and go study the word of God. Let it be something that if you don't have understanding and you know, seek the understanding. You know, in Jeremiah 33, 3, my favorite verse in the whole Bible, it says, Call unto me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things in which you do not know. And he will show you. And the only thing that we can do is bow. That's it, that's all we can do.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

That's it, sister. That is it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

Excellent. Uh, sister Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Well, I just want to say um basically, uh, just thank you so much for the study. Um, this is an excellent subject subject. I pray that anyone who needed to hear this was in this live tonight because you know, you provided the the scripture. Um, you know, you're not one to say things and don't provide scripture. So I I pray that whoever had doubt or or questions or whatever was in here tonight, and or maybe watch it back, um, because it is like you said, when you realize it, that it was nothing, it was nothing that you know that we could have done. It's all him. It humbles you, and the gratitude goes through the roof to know that by no, by no doing of your own, this magnificent God of ours reached into the pit of hell that we were headed for and yanked us up. And Meg, I want to say thank you for that analogy about the world being a giant graveyard. I'm gonna remember that because um I think that's a great way to explain it to people. We're all just a bunch of walking zombies until Christ Himself pulls us out of that grave. Um, thank you again, everybody. God bless you all, and I love you all so very much.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Sister Mariah, your last word.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, um, this is a great study. I was um looking in chapter nine, and you know, when he says he tells Moses, I will have mercy on who I will have mercy on, and I will have compassion on whom I'll have compassion on. The next verse that follows, um, it says that what shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness in God? God forbid. And so what makes me think of is that if people are saying that it is wrong that God uh finds mercy on who he whoever he finds mercy on or compassion with whoever he has compassion on, then ultimately they are saying that there is some unrighteousness found in God. And I think that we ought to be careful uh and be mindful when we are saying such things, because I know that there is no unrighteousness in God and there is nothing that he can do that's unjust, um, that is not good or um pleasant, you know. Um all things that he does, then there's no darkness in him. So all things that he does are good, you know. And so I just wanted to kind of bring that out that if you are saying that it is wrong that oh, that he saves some or that he has an election, because the verse prior to him saying Moses is uh telling Moses this, he's talking about God's election. And so if we go on to say these things, let's be mindful of what it is that we're truly saying at the foundation. If we say that it is unit is not good that God finds mercy, you know. So I don't want to be repetitive, but let's just be mindful of those things that we just don't charge God foolishly with our mouths.

God Alone Determines Destiny

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Yeah, sister. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Brother Peck, your last word. And if you would close this out, you're done.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Sure. Um, I'm gonna scare a bunch of people out of the room first. I hope you don't mind uh if I do that. Um I'm gonna say some very offensive words if you're in a religion of men and you're not gonna like what I have to say. So you might you might want to leave now before I speak, because what I want to say to you is don't be in denial. The determiner of destiny is God alone. And if you're in a religion that has the determiner of your destiny as anyone else but God, you're in a man-made religion. The Roman Catholic Church will say, well, it's only by God's grace that we're saved. But he gave that grace to the church, and men control the grace, and therefore the church is the controller of destiny, right? Right? The Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, living prophets, the only true church today. God has given them the grace. And then we have the free will people, right? God has created a system of free will by which we choose. I am the determiner of my own destiny. Well, who's God then? You're your own God if you believe that. And then Eastern religions, I achieve enlightenment by emptying out myself. It's the same thing. You are the determiner of your own destiny, seeking to ri uh uh reach nirvana or whatever it might be, right? Right, God alone is the determiner of destiny.

unknown 21:54

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

And if you are part of any system that teaches anything but that. You are making yourself your own God. Absolutely. And I know that sounds harsh. And that is the type of thing that has gotten Jonathan a lot of hot water, right? A lot of videos. A lot of people hate this man because he has said similar things to what I just said. But what are we going to do? Not say it? Not tell people the truth? Is that what we're supposed to do? Because that's the only alternative, right, Jonathan?

Hell Rejection And Let Them Alone

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, brother, I can't put it any plainer. And it's and I think that these are things that people need to understand. This is, I mean, it this is plainly stated in scripture. Plainly stated. And so and so avoidance or um negligence and teaching it, all these things, they put a cloud between us and God so that we can see him for what he really is. And when we don't understand that those who don't receive grace are receiving the justice that all of humanity deserves, including those who receive grace, we are not being faithful to the truth. And we're robbing people of probably an element that is serious enough to encourage them to think about these things in greater, in a greater detail, in a more serious fashion. Because the fact is, God did not elect all people. And I don't care what Roy G or any of these other people say. You know, right now what they're trying to do is say, okay, well, we're just gonna just discount the impact of hell. It's not real, it's not real. So you can have election or not have election and believe that or not believe it. But if nobody's going to hell, then nobody's afraid. And the gospel doesn't have any real tea in some respects. But this is the truth. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. And God has never turned down his mercy or grace to anyone who sought after it. Never. Not one person, not one person in hell is going to be able to say, I asked him for salvation and he refused me. I looked for grace and he rejected me. Not one single person in hell is going to be there. And I saw somebody cite, uh, not here, but somebody was talking about uh C.S. Lewis. And he meet and he and C. S. Lewis made this famous quote where he says that that the door of hell is locked from the inside. Think about that for a second. The door of hell is locked from the inside, meaning on the sinner side, it's locked. And they have no desire to unlock it or no desire to walk out. That shows you how great sin is. If you read Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, you read about the man in the iron cage. And Christian asked him, Why doesn't he just leave? The door is open. And the man in the iron cage just said, I can't.

SPEAKER_06 25:53

I can't.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

It's not in him. Reprobation is as a serious matter. And all of those who reject Christ ultimately are reprobates. All of those who turn from the faith, like first John 2 talks about, they are reprobates. These are those whom God told his servants, let them alone. Jesus Christ says, Let the blind, he said, let the blind follow the blind leaders, and both of them fall into a ditch. The Lord Jesus said that. The worst three words put together that can come from the mouth of our Lord to the servants of our Lord to speak, or with reference to the loss, is for him to say to his servants, let them alone. After you perish, after you die, and after you stand before God's tribune tribunal, then you hear the most dreadful words of all. Depart from me, I never knew you. All of these people, the rebellious, the stiff-necked, the stubborn, those who refuse to turn, no matter how much we share the gospel with them. If they never come to faith, if they never repent from their sins, is because God has left them in the condition that we all deserve to remain in anyway. And so we are thankful and grateful for what Christ has done because we know that the potter was under no obligation to make us vessels of honor. And that is the case because he is God and He can do whatever he so wills with his creatures. Brother Pat, would you close this out, brother?

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, I have one thing to say first.

SPEAKER_05 28:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

You will hear from religious people about a Jesus who could hypothetically save, a Jesus who wants to save, a Jesus who tries to save, a Jesus who attempts to save. A Jesus who weeps as his people head towards hell and eternal damnation. I don't know anything about that, Jesus. What about you, Jonathan? That's not the Jesus I serve. The Jesus I serve actually saves, and he never fails.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

Never fails.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

He saves perfectly, completely. He is the author and the finisher of our salvation. And he loses none. None.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Amen. Amen, brother. You can say that all day long. That's the truth. That is the truth. We know nothing of the Lord. That's why what Sean said earlier was so apropos to what we're talking about when she says that in Isaiah, where he he says that he shall see the travail of his soul. He shall save his people from their sins. Not might, not could if he wanted to, not thinking about it, not contemplating it. It's what he did. So, Brother Pat, you're right on, brother. You're right on. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Well, let's join in prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, we come to your throne, Lord, just with hearts full of thanks for this wonderful lesson and this time you've given us together, Lord. We pray that you cause our hearts to rejoice and embrace the truth of your word, Lord, that your word is used to sanctify us from the inside out, Lord, and continue to mold us into proper workmanship to do your bidding in this world, Lord, that we might properly represent you and be used as salt and light in this world, Lord, to further your kingdom, to show your blessings to the ends of this earth, Lord. We thank you for this gift of salvation, Lord, this perfect gift. We're so unworthy, God. We thank you for not giving us what we deserve, God, but instead giving us grace in spite of what we deserve, Lord. Lord, I pray for the Christians who are being persecuted all over this globe. Persecution against your people is rampant and severe, Lord. So we pray for those people all over the world who are in dire situations and are in need of you, Lord. Please meet their needs, comfort them, help them wherever they are. We pray, Lord. And lastly, I pray for the people in the study, Lord, that you provide for our daily needs, our food, our family needs, our financial needs, all those things, Lord. But also that we live lives that honor you, God. Please give us those hearts, Lord. Please renew our hearts daily, Lord, so that you may increase and we may decrease. And we pray this all in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

So much, brother. And uh very good study tonight with everybody. God bless you all. It's been a good one. And this is a very sobering topic to talk about. Very difficult. I'm sure I'll hear something from somebody tomorrow, no doubt about that. Um I will not be dissuaded, and I hope you will not. In fact, just the opposite. Provoked and persuaded. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And God's blessed in tomorrow in chapter 38 of Job. Woo!

SPEAKER_04 33:03

Yep. We're almost done with Job. We're getting here. I've already been working on Roman, so I'm I'm putting that together so I can get a good head start.

SPEAKER_07 33:12

So but uh looking forward to that. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Marvin, you're welcome. Uh Michelle Kearns, you have you have a good night. Miss Carter, have a great night. Um Jimmy McCall, Solafi, Solafide. Uh everybody, just thank you for your time and your generous attention. Um and I appreciate all of you. Have a great night, and God bless you all.