LIVE: Introduction to the Letter to the Romans (Part 2/4)

Rome is the world’s superpower, Nero sits on the throne, and Paul sends a letter that refuses to flatter the culture. We talk through why the timing of Romans matters, how early legal decisions in Acts shape Paul’s situation, and why his appeal to Caesar isn’t just a courtroom move but a providential route that puts the gospel in front of governors, kings, and the imperial machine.

From there we dig into the real church dynamics behind the text: a mixed congregation of Jewish and Gentile believers carrying old loyalties, new temptations, and plenty of friction. We connect that to the themes Paul will press in Romans, including circumcision, the Mosaic law, the role of Israel in redemption, and the warning against spiritual arrogance on either side.

The conversation turns personal when we ask what faithful evangelism should sound like. Paul gives the bad news first because the “good news” only makes sense when we understand guilt before a holy God. Along the way we unpack the law as a mirror that reveals sin but cannot clean it, and we answer a big question about salvation in the Old Testament: there has only ever been one gospel, and the Holy Spirit has always been the one who awakens faith.

If you care about the Book of Romans, biblical theology, and clear gospel preaching, listen through and join the conversation. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves Romans, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Nero Era And Legal Stakes

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Right. Exactly right. So another significant thing here about about Paul is that he writes this while Rome is under the rule of Nero. And Nero. And and so and it is it is assumed that it that at this point, well we know at this point, not just assumed, but we know at this point, it was not at a time where Nero's persecutions had gotten as intense as they would eventually become. And so this the gospel being preached to Rome would end up setting the stage and being and having a significant role in why the Christian church was persecuted as intensely as it was.

Why Paul Builds A Court Case

SPEAKER_05 1:13

Sister May, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 1:15

Well, back to like the case, because remember why I mean I wanted to go back a little bit to why Paul would have to make a case to Rome. Because wasn't Christianity was being examined, and as we read through Acts, probably like 18 through 25, we can see that Christianity was being examined in the courts as to which it was lawful or unlawful, right? And so I think didn't Paul make an appeal to Caesar and they they put him into the courts. And so seeing as though they did this in Acts, when he is writing in Rome, he's making this kind of court case to show through legal through the legal system why it was lawful. Right. Because I think there was something there was something in Acts where they said to Paul, well, there's nothing, it was overturned, right?

SPEAKER_05 2:17

You mean you mean his his court case?

SPEAKER_06 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

He never made it to court because his ship crashed. Yeah, they yeah, he so he he never made it, yeah, because they it it crashed, and I remember somebody making this joke about this was the first time surfers, surfing was invented or something like that. But anyway, yeah. But anyway, but anyway, you don't know he he he he did not make it. He he didn't he didn't make it. And so but go ahead, Meg. I'm sorry I cut you off.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

Okay, I found it. Acts 23, 29. It says, whom I perceive to be accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or bonds. So Rome saw Rome then saw it as a disagreement and not treason, something that Paul was accused of, right? So it was dismissed.

SPEAKER_05 3:09

Right. And he, you know, Paul actually, you know, Paul actually, you know, it it was it was you know, it was pr providential that he ended up appealing. And and what and Dizzy, let me ask you this question. Why do you think it would be providential that Paul would appeal to Rome when he when he was being tried? Because they were tempted to let Paul go as well, but they did, but he took the pressure off by appealing. Why do you think that took the pressure off of them? Or why do you think that was a good thing providentially for the Christian church and for Paul and for us?

SPEAKER_04 3:56

That's a tough one. I don't know if I have an answer for that one, to be honest. I gotta really like contemplate on that one a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Okay, Sister Mariah, what do you think? Why would he why would why would you why would I say that his pe his appeal was providential? Providential to what end?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

I'm sorry, I'm I'm finishing wrapping up my kids from bathing, so can you pass me?

SPEAKER_05 4:24

Yep, I'll pass. Anyone want to give an answer to that? Could it could it be that he was kind of trying to soften their hearts a little bit before he No, because remember, he said, he says, you know, he was being accused and he was on trial, and he says, Well, I appeal to Caesar because he was a Roman citizen. And then they and and then and then and then Agrippa was like, Well, you appeal to Caesar, to Caesar you will go. Sister Meg, you want to try to give an answer before I give it? Meg?

SPEAKER_06 4:57

Yeah, it's in Acts 25. Okay, tell them. Okay, 10 through 11. It says, Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat where I ought to be judged. To the Jews, I have done no wrong, and thou very well knowest. For if I be an offender or have committed anything wrong of death, I refuse not to die. But if there be none of these whereof these accuse me, no man may they deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. So he knew that the that the Jews wanted to unalive him, because in 2312 it said they bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. So they wanted to they wanted to kill him.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

Why was it why was it significant? Why was it significant that he went to Rome? Brother Pat.

Appeal To Caesar And Providence

SPEAKER_05 5:55

You're breaking up really bad, brother. But let me just go ahead and say it. So why I believe that this was a providential occurrence is because the gospel would get to Rome. Had he not appealed to Rome, this letter may never have been written. You know, so he so but getting to Rome, I mean it could have, but what I'm saying is that the fact that he appealed, that appeal was the impetus that would get the gospel preached to the high, upper, the upper levels of government in Rome, and it would also contribute significantly to the spreading of the gospel in the in the greatest superpower on earth at the time, the world superpower. Sister Megan and then Sean.

SPEAKER_06 6:43

One verse. This is red letter in Acts 23.11. And the night following, the Lord stood by him and said, Be of good cheer, Paul, for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. So the Lord told him that he was gonna bear witness in Rome. Glory to God. I just saw that.

SPEAKER_05 7:06

Amen. Absolutely. Excellent. Sister Sean, go ahead. Sean, is it me? Or is it is it me having a problem?

SPEAKER_06 7:19

We can hear you, brother.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

Okay. Sean, if you can hear me, go ahead. All right.

SPEAKER_07 7:26

Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_05 7:27

Yeah, I hear you now. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 7:29

Uh yeah, she used the scripture that I was gonna use. Uh yeah. The gospel now stood before Rome itself.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

So Amen. Good excellent. Excellent. So now, at this time, like I said, he writes this letter under Nero's rule, and we know that it wasn't a time where the persecution had begun yet that Nero would instigate. And so right now, at this particular time, there is relative stability in terms of the region at the time. And so there was no there was no antagonism yet, not of any real significance that needed to be worried about at this particular time. Although, you know, it was it was there and it was brewing and it would it would intensify and it would end up being the result of a massive persecution of God's people in Rome.

A Mixed Church Of Jews Gentiles

SPEAKER_05 8:28

So the next thing we come to is what the what the religious context was at the time. And so the Roman congregation, it seems, well we know, was a very mixed congregation. This was a congregation that was mixed with Jew and Gentile alike, but both sides, both groups of people, brought something significant that Paul was able to deal with with this letter. He would address both groups. And so we see this, especially when we get to Romans chapter 9 through 11, and Paul starts to deal with the Gentile believers in terms of arrogating themselves over Jews because they were believers, and also Jews leaning in on their own heritage as still being part of this impact of entitlement that they that they held that they had and held on to. So this composition of people, Jew and Gentile, in Rome, this powerful capital of the world, basically, it ended up being it ended up beginning to shape the issues that Paul would come to address in the book that we now know as Romans. So on one hand, you had Jewish believers that they carried, as I was saying earlier, they they they held to this heritage of their law and their own heritage. And they tried to carry that with them even into Rome. And so they they still held to these covenant privileges like circumcision and the Old Testament revelation. On the other hand, you have the Gentile believers who came in from pagan backgrounds and they locked up all of these, they they didn't have all of these other historical advantages, but what they did do, they brought a lot of their own sort of carnal perceptions about God and things of this nature. So Paul ends up dealing with the you know faith and justification and all these things. So because of all of these things, because I think it was Sean who mentioned, somebody mentioned tensions, and and there were a few, what was the position that Paul would make regarding the Mosaic law that the Jews held and cling so tightly to? What how would Paul address circumcision? Because he addresses circumcision in this book. What is the role of Israel in the overall plan of redemption? What is their role? He he deals with that role. Then he also deals, and this is important, he also deals with the relationship between Jew and Gentile. What is that like? Are they separate? Are they one? Are we clinging to some parts that the Jews still held to? Are we expecting them to have a different type of prominence later? This is what he's going to deal with. And then he also deals with liberty and conscience. And so we're going to see a lot of these things that Paul is going to address directly in the book of Romans. And so this is what we want to be on the lookout for. And like uh Sean brought up, the whole Claudius thing, Claudius kicked out a lot of the Jews, and they ended up, you know, being coming in under being kicked out of Rome, and so they had these problems. And so you can see the wind up. You can see the wind up for persecution. And then later on, when Jewish believers would come back, the Gentiles, their leadership and their influence had also increased in the church. So you're starting to see prominence. You're starting to see you basically end up having this powder keg of belief that was not what needed to be understood. And Paul, in writing Romans, he begins to start clearing these things up and explaining how these things work. And like I said, in Romans 9 through 11, you're going to see a lot where Paul is going to really dig in deep and he's going to say a lot of things that are going to rub people the wrong way. And it's interesting because it still rubs people the wrong way. People who call themselves Christian. Sister Meg, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 13:10

Now that you're thinking about I now that you're talking about this, so crazy. And thinking about this as far as like God's providence is concerned, right? Because of all these things that happened, right? We know that all things work for the greater good, right? So the Jews accused Paul in the temple, right? And in Acts 21, 30 it says, and all the city was moved, and the people ran together and took Paul. So he got to a place where he moved from groups of people up to larger groups of people where the gospel was starting to spread, up to like kings and governors and all of these people. So we see God's providence because when he told them in Acts chapter 23, when the Lord told them that he was going to bear witness at Rome and had accumulated to a space where when Paul wrote Romans, everybody was going to hear about this. So we see the providence of God through it. That even though the people at the time thought all this was happening, it was purely God's providence in bringing Paul to testify and bear witness to Rome.

SPEAKER_05 14:25

Amen, sister. Absolutely right. Nailing it. Now here's the thing. You go, Paul is sent to the most powerful nation on earth. He's sent to the most powerful nation on earth. He set before kings and rulers in high places, as Sister Meg just said. And what does he do? He goes to the height of civilization. And what does he preach when he gets to the height of civilization? He starts preaching the low depths of man's corruption. He goes, it would be the equivalent of going to the White House and telling them you are wicked people. Not just the White House, but

Bad News Then Good News

SPEAKER_05 15:28

all humanity. He gets on this, he gets on in this position. He's perfectly suited. Time-wise, it's like all these things converge at a single point in time, and Paul goes to the height of humanity and tells the height of humanity that all of mankind has is sunk to the lowest levels of human depravity. And now you have to ask yourself, how is the response, what is the response going to be like? And we and and we know very well what ends up happening. Persecution ends up coming soon, and even Paul himself ends up facing an unfortunate demise. Brother Pat, go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 16:21

I think he's having problems.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

Yeah, he's having a lot of problems. Anybody want to add anything to what I just said?

SPEAKER_04 16:28

So I think Paul's approach was brilliant. You give the bad news first, and then you give the good news. You want to let people know the bad, then give them the good. But yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:47

So let's keep that thing for a second, Dizzy. How do you think that affects, or how do you think that should affect the way we witness, the way we preach?

SPEAKER_04 17:02

So, like I said, that's the best way of approaching any situation. You want to let people know the negative first? Just get that out of the way. Because if you give them the good news first, then tell them the bad news. I don't think that's like the best way of doing things, especially if you're preaching to two different groups. You have the Jews who some didn't believe that Jesus was God. And you have this other group who have a ton of gods. So you have to let them know of their wickedness, let them know of their sins and their depravity. And then after that, you let them know there's a solution.

unknown 17:45

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Jesus came, he died for your sins. If you believe in his death, his burial, resurrection, you will be saved.

SPEAKER_05 17:53

That's exactly right, brother. And that's what I was going for. That's exactly what I was going for. See, today when we preach, the the American gospel opens with God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. That wasn't what Paul's message was. That wasn't how he, that wasn't how he addressed it. Like you said, Dizzy, correctly. That is the order that which it goes. Because what good is the good news if you haven't understood a need for that good news? And that and that bad news that man needs to hear is that he has offended the thrice holy God. He offended God. How? By his sin, his unrepented sin. And that sin needs to be dealt with. And the issue that we have for people is, the issue that we have for people is this. Are you a sinner? Now I hear a lot of people, I hear a lot of people and you know on lives, and I don't know if it's some of yours or not, but I know, and meaning anybody who's on these things, but one of the things that a lot of people do, and I've heard a lot of people, you know, they they vet people, and I think it's a good idea when they come into their lives. But see, the way I look at it, I think a suitable question is, are you a sinner? How do you know you're a sinner? How did you, how did you, if you did at all, how did you escape being treated as a sinner? And this says a lot, because men need to understand that before God they are sinners. And and and if and if they are sinners and they have not yet repented, telling them how much Jesus loves them does them no good. Does them no good. Amen, brother. Because it is not until there has been a regenerative work in the heart of a sinner, can they even understand the love of God? They can't. What needs to be understood, which is also takes a work of that regener that regeneration of the Holy Spirit, to understand that they have offended God. And so you're right, Dizzy. I agree with you 100%. People need to deal with that bad news first, and then they're able to understand the wonderful work, if you want to call it that, that God has prepared for them. Brother Brian, you want to add anything? I've been seeing some of your comments and they're good ones.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I just wanted to talk about how what Meg was saying earlier about, I mean, y'all are laying it out perfectly about how we deliver the gospel to people, but just like how God in his providence ordained the time and the means of how Paul got to where he was going at that time to preach. The same lesson applies to us people. God has ordained who we're going to talk to at the perfect time and at the perfect moment. So don't get so caught up about, oh, I didn't say the perfect thing or that.

SPEAKER_05 21:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

It's God doing it. We're just his messengers, that's it.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

So that's right. Amen, brother. Glad you came up. Glad you came up. Hang around for a while. Like it when you come up. Sister Melody, go ahead.

One Gospel For Old Testament Saints

SPEAKER_08 21:27

So I kind of have a question. I hope it's not a dumb question, but this one thing I've been thinking about. So in the Old Testament, they were sinners and they didn't have God's Holy Spirit and heart change like we have the Holy Spirit. So my question is did they know or recognize their sinful state in the Old Testament like we do now? And did they know that they needed a savior or were they still just dead in their sins, like, you know, because they didn't have that, they didn't have the heart change or God's spirit in them. So were they still blind and like, you know, spiritually? Blind or did they have some aspect of the need for a savior?

SPEAKER_05 22:05

So let me let me answer that question by a question. How many gospels are there that save?

SPEAKER_08 22:14

One.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

One. How are men saved by that one gospel?

SPEAKER_08 22:18

By faith.

SPEAKER_05 22:19

By faith in who?

SPEAKER_08 22:22

Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

How do you come to that faith?

SPEAKER_08 22:26

By knowing that Jesus died on the cross.

SPEAKER_05 22:28

Right, but how do you come to that belief?

SPEAKER_08 22:31

God gives it.

SPEAKER_05 22:32

How does God give it?

SPEAKER_08 22:37

Through the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Amen. You answered your own question.

SPEAKER_08 22:42

Hmm. So basically, they were spiritually dead.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

They were spiritually dead and they were spiritually awakened by the Holy Spirit. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 22:51

Yes, so the reason why I'm asking is because, like, you know, in pertaining to Paul, like, of course, he was going out telling people that, you know, you you're dead and you're sin. So it really wasn't until you know the Holy Spirit came that their eyes were too open to their sinful nature, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

David, David, Moses, Job, all of these men, they all knew about Christ. They all knew. They all had faith. In fact, we're told that we have the faith that was modeled after Abraham's faith. Right? So we only have one gospel. If they were saved, like for instance, when when he when Ephesians, when Paul tells us in Ephesians that all of us, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit into the day of redemption. Does that apply to just those of us who read the New Testament? Or does it apply to everyone who was saved?

SPEAKER_08 23:56

Everyone.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Amen, sister. You answered your question because there's only one gospel. And that gospel, that gospel cannot be improved upon. So if the gospel was different for them, then that means the gospel that we hold to now had to be improved upon. And that can't be so. In Romans, we're going to clear this up real fast. It's going to start in the first chapter. What did Paul say? He said that all mankind are all under sin. All mankind, right? So there's no way that anyone can be saved except by the way we're saved today. So that means that however we're saved today had to have always been the same. And that is by a faith in Jesus Christ that is given to those who believe by the Holy Spirit. Now, what we ended up learning is that the Holy Spirit, you know, we we know better in a more perspicuous way how the Holy Spirit works and how the and how the Holy Spirit works and how the Holy Spirit works in a more pervasive manner than they did, but they were saved by the same Holy Spirit in the same way. It was Ezekiel who talked about the heart, the heart of stone being taken out in a heart in a heart of flesh that would eventually that you know that will be changed. But how did Ezekiel know that? How did he know that? And Paul in book of in this very book, he's quoting Isaiah. How did Isaiah know this? And remember, Paul is preaching in Romans what he what he states, the New Testament wasn't around then. Everything that he preached, everything that Christ preached, everything that every New Testament preacher preached, they preached from the Old Testament. And this is why I always say every every every child of God should be able to preach the gospel without the New Testament if they had to. And that means that gospel has not changed. It has always been the same. But to us, we have been made uh privy to a a more clear, less ambiguous way in terms of how God is working than they did, but we are still saved the same Psalms without the Holy Spirit. Do you think Moses could have had that faith that he had without the Holy Spirit or Job, the one who said, as we just finished, he knew that his Redeemer lived? The Bible tells us clearly that the only way anyone can say these things is but by the Holy Spirit. That's the only way you can come to these conclusions. You see what I mean? Does that make sense, Melody?

SPEAKER_08 27:12

Yeah, clarify. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 27:14

All right, good. Because if it doesn't, uh, you know, I don't want you to just rest with that. I want you to uh I want it to be clear. So if we got to wrestle with it, days to come, just do that because I want to make sure it's clear on that. And I and I'm willing to surprise whatever proof is necessary to help you understand that. But I think it's a great good. Because it's a great question and it's not a dumb question. Sister Meg, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 27:36

I think it was a great question because not only did you answer your own question, but it edified the people in the room. So great job with that. A verse that I wanted to give to back up what you just said, Brother Jonathan. It's in Acts chapter 13, 48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

Amen, sister. Amen. Amen. Anybody else want to add anything? Brother Pat, are you is he there yet? Oh,

The Law As Mirror And Light

SPEAKER_05 28:10

no, he's not there yet. Dizzy, go ahead, brother.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

All right, so remember what I said about Paul's approach, how he gave the bad news first and then the good news?

unknown 28:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

It makes me think of God did the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 28:25

How so?

SPEAKER_04 28:26

He gives the bad news by putting a mirror in front of us. Here's the law. You're all sinners. Then we get to the New Testament where we get the good news. You're all saved if you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_05 28:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

So the bad and then the new. The older serves the younger.

SPEAKER_05 28:46

Amen. And I like I like that you use the mirror, because I use this a lot. And so I like that. And and and and and the way I try to tell people what you just said is that the law is the mirror that man needs to look into. What does the law do? It reveals sin, but the law itself, like the mirror, doesn't clean you. The mirror itself cannot clean you up. The law cannot clean you up. It reveals to you your sinful nature. That's what the law does. It reveals the sinful nature, and it and it should make the person who is who has revealed this thing tremble and fear and to wonder with frenzy, what must I do to be saved? You see? And so and so, Dizzy, what you said is insightful, and it's exactly the truth. That's what the law is. It's a a mechanism for revealing sin, not for fixing the sin problem. Mariah, do you agree?

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Absolutely. Absolutely. If it wasn't for the mirror that reveals our reality to us, that we are yet dead in our sins, and we have sinned against a holy God, what else can really show us that we're in need of a savior? You know, it's just further when you're convicted of your sins, and then you look and you realize that you have sinned, you have uh no other choice but to conform to that reality and understand the position that you're in, or you know, justify and excuse your sin.

SPEAKER_05 30:38

Amen. Absolutely, absolutely. Anyone else? Dizzy, come back, brother. Come back unless you have somewhere to go, but I want you to come back if you can. I like what you're saying.

SPEAKER_08 30:49

I just have one more thing to say.

SPEAKER_05 30:50

Sure, go ahead, Mr.

SPEAKER_08 30:51

It's just a statement in regards to it's just a statement in regards to what we're what we're talking about. So I'm I'm read I was reading this book. Talked about how like you know, the you know, the light, the sun shine, and you don't, and you know, that's how you're able to see the moon's imperfect.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

Right.

SPEAKER_08 31:10

Um the what the craters is because the the sun shines on the moon so you can see the imperfections. But if it wasn't for the light shining on it, you couldn't see how imperfect it was. And that's what God does to us. Like he shines the light on us so we can see that we're dirty, so we can see that we're simple, and we can see our true nature.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Amen, sister. Excellent assessment. Excellent, excellent. Anybody? Brother Brian, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

I was just gonna say that I mean, even like the looking in the mirror thing is is perfectly said, and how you broke that down. I mean, for one, that's scripture about how the law does that. But even with that, I always like try to put to point things back to God and his sovereignty of unless he draws somebody, you don't even see the mirror. That's right. That is that in itself is just a mercy and grace and act of God. That's the part of the drawing process. When you're talking to somebody, Brother Jonathan, I know you know this, and other people on here know it too. When you're talking to somebody, you can almost see God drawing them.

unknown 32:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

When you're explaining the gospel to them and talking to them, that mirror just starts to shine. You start seeing it.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

They start asking, well, wait a minute, have I always thought this way and stuff? It's just awesome because you actually see God in the whole process. So just yeah, when we're talking to somebody, man, God's doing it. Just let him do what he does and be the messenger.

SPEAKER_05 32:39

Amen, brother. Amen, brother. That is so that is so true. That is so true.

Rome’s Power And Spiritual Darkness

SPEAKER_05 32:45

So, what we have continuing down in this, this, this, this, you know, this place that we're dealing with the moral and cultural background of Rome. Welcome, Grace, by the way. Paul, he when he when he's talking about Rome and talking to Rome, as I said, he is telling the most powerful nation on the planet, that all humanity, including them, they are depraved, that they are wholly corrupt. And so we have to imagine that there was no there was no settling, there's no way of this being settled in the mind of people of the hearers, at least not right away. And for the most part, even to this very day, it has never been something that is uh entirely embraced. We we fight on a regular basis, even with those who are supposed to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, who deny the very corruption that Paul says plagues mankind. And so this is what, and this is why this needs to be preached adamantly, fervently, and with ferocity. And so, and and we and we need this. And so, even though the Roman Empire they possessed this vast power, even though they had legal sophistication, they were philosophers, and they had established social order by by by by their law, by their legal system, even with all of that, they were saturated with idolatry, and there was no moral order whatsoever, and they were draped and enveloped in spiritual darkness. And and what Paul is pointing out is that no matter how much light man thinks he can turn on or activate through human means, it is still darkness. And the greater light that man creates, the darker that the darker man is.

SPEAKER_06 35:00

Amen.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

You see, so we need we need to understand that.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah, amen. No, I agree. It's that it's something that we need to understand, and and I agree that it is by God's grace that we understand it because I've experienced it myself, right? Because when we're born a new creation, it's not that we uh immediately see everything for how it is, it's kind of like you know, how it is when a newborn baby is born, right? If you think about it, because newborn babies, when they're born, they they can't really see their eyes are very blurry, and it takes their eyes time to develop, right? So, like it's it's the same thing for us Christians when you're first born a new creation, right, you're not able to fully see your sin in its entirety because you're not fully developed, and so as you develop, just like as