While We Were Yet Sinners (Romans 5:6-11), Part 2/4

If you’ve ever been told, “God saved you because He knew you’d do the right thing,” we push back with Romans 5 and call that comfort story what it is: a shaky foundation. We keep returning to one phrase that changes everything, “without strength.” Not weak, not struggling, but spiritually unable to produce the kind of goodness that could ever qualify us for justification. When we treat salvation like our choice tipping the scales, we quietly place our will above God’s and steal the glory grace is meant to guard.

We walk slowly through Paul’s argument in Romans 5:7-8. First, the honesty of verse 7: it’s rare for anyone to die even for a righteous person, maybe for a good person on an exceptional day. Human love is often drawn to the worthy. Then the gospel contrast lands with full force: God puts His love on public display while we are still sinners. The timing is the point. Christ doesn’t wait for spiritual progress, better intentions, or a cleaned-up record.

Along the way we connect the dots to Romans 3, Ephesians 2, and Romans 8:30 to show why phrases like “dead in sin” and “called and justified” matter for assurance, humility, and worship. We also talk about the difference between self-improvement religion and rescue, and why real grace leaves us with empty hands and a grateful heart.

If this challenged you or clarified something you’ve wrestled with, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these Romans 5 conversations.

Transcript

Human Choice Called A Lie

SPEAKER_05 0:00

That you are going to do the right thing. That means you have strength. Not only were you going to do the right thing, as you say, you're saying that God is going to see that you're going to do the right thing, and that is the ground and basis and foundation for your salvation in terms of his choosing of you. That is a lie. That's a total lie. So man is completely and totally depraved, wholly corrupt, unable without strength to do anything that pertains to that which God will justify. It's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

I love what you're saying. I mean, it makes perfect sense. And if you if you believe that you actually chose God, you place your will higher than his. If you believe that you can walk away from God, you place your will higher than his. We just read in Romans 3 a few nights back that no one understands no one seeks for God. It's as clear as day. You can't say no one seeks for God except that guy over there or this guy over here. No one is no one.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

So, you know what? You know, bow down in reverence and gratitude and worship the Lord. If you believe that was a gift from him, and he deserves all the glory.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Not you.

Without Strength And Dead In Sin

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Absolutely. Sister Vanessa, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I agree with Lisa. But the one thing that I know when it says that we never had no strength, it's because without Jesus, we won't have no spirituality. Nothing at all. Right. And you know, that's what to me, that's what that means. I mean, we have no we had no strength.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Right. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

We couldn't say, hey God, save us. We couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

We couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

No, at all. So that's my thoughts right now.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Just to Sean.

SPEAKER_09 2:12

Yeah. Just looking at it, Ephesians 2 says that we were dead in trespasses and sins and past tense. And so that just shows that if we're dead, then we do we don't have any strength. That's right. And so he quickened us when we were in that state. And so just looking at Romans 8 and 30, and then looking at what you're saying, when it says that whom more of whom he did predestinate, he called, and then he called, he justified, he justified, he glorified.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Right.

SPEAKER_09 2:45

So this is these are those he chose beforehand to be conformed to the image of his son. Right. And he called them that they may be made right with God and share in his glory. But during that call, like looking back, we were without strength. And so there's no merit there. There's nothing we could have done.

SPEAKER_05 3:08

That's right. Nothing. Nothing. Sister Savannah, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, so even, you know, even after we're reborn and God gives us a new heart, it's not, you know, it's not by our own strength either. We all as Christians, you know, have to go to the feet of Jesus and surrender our shortcomings to him. And Christianity is the only religion that doesn't that doesn't demand that you fix yourself. It's the only religion that doesn't demand that you that you fix yourself. And I think that says a lot. Just that alone says a lot. And it says that in the Bible that God is our forerunner, and he makes us lay down by green pastures, you know. He makes us lay down. By, you know, and it's not like a forceful thing, it's a beautiful thing. It's by surrender.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Right, right. Amen, sister Savannah. Amen. All right. And don't worry, I'm gonna get around every to everybody, but I'm gonna space things out a little bit.

Why People Rarely Die For Good

SPEAKER_05 4:34

So Romans 5, verse 7. Paul continues his argument. And he says, for scarcely, for scarcely, for a righteous man will one die. Yet, peradventure for a good man, some would even dare to die. This is what he's saying. Let me read it one more time. Because this is this is beautiful. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die. Yet per adventure for a good man, some would even dare to die. So now he's talking about the capabilities of human, what what humans will do. Humanity. So he makes a comparison. He introduces here this comparison to highlight the extraordinary nature of what Christ has done, what his death has done, and what it means. And so he makes a distinction between the righteous man and a good man. Between a righteous man and a good man. And he's pointing out that one might inspire admiration while the other may evoke affection. So men can look at a man that they consider to be righteous. And amongst those that men consider to be righteous, scarcely somebody might die for that righteous person. And he says, and yes, maybe even for a good man, some might even dare to die. So he's talking about men dealing with other men. That you might lay your you might lay your life down. He says it's rare, it's scarce. It's a remote possibility that a human will look at someone else as being aspirational of aspirational qualities or having aspirational qualities or having good qualities, and maybe on the rare occasion, somebody might be willing to give their life up for one of these people, a good person. But a person who is not only upright but also benevolent and kind, they may attract this kind of devotion. That someone might even dare to die for them. But the point he's making is that even if he says that men, when they look at even the best of men, men that have the best and most stellar reputations, kind men, gentle men, good men, some might dare die for them. Meaning that if you take the best of men, some on a rare occasion might give their life up to save them. But even this is uncommon. This is rare. We don't see it very often. Human love is generally drawn, and this is the thing that he's pointing out. Human love is generally taken in with someone who they feel has attractive qualities, someone who is worthy, someone who is worthy of a benefit like this. And what Paul is saying is that even at their best, it is rare. And men have to be at their total best and and and to have their life spared by somebody else because of what somebody else does. This is a rare occasion. And that person would have to be someone of stellar human quality for somebody to even consider it. It's rare. So Paul is establishing this principle only to prepare for something that is far more significant and in a much greater contrast in what follows here. Paul is pointing out that God's love moves toward those who possess none of these qualities that a person would rarely die for in terms of seeing the most attractive qualities in another hurt human being. Paul is saying that in the human experience, self-sacrifice for someone else is rare, even to those who are considered righteous, considered good people, considered, you know, those who are of exceptional quality in terms of reputation. Paul says it is rare. It has to be an exceptional case for someone to die for a person that is regarded so highly. Somebody who is so righteous and good in their eyes. And Paul makes this observation to underscore the limits of human love, which is typically conditioned by worthiness on the part of the one that they would make the sacrifice for. In other words, for a man to be willing to sacrifice, to self-sacrifice himself for another man, that person would have to be the greatest of people. The highest of integrity by human standards. And men would, even in that situation, would scarcely do it. It would be a rare, extraordinary case. And so Paul pointing this out here in verse 7, he prepares the way for a contrast that will reveal the surpassing nature of the divine love, in contrast to human love, to the point where they would be willing to sacrifice their life for someone else. Brother Jeff, man of God, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Well, I try not to, but I'm just kidding. What I think is that, you know, when I'm thinking, when I'm pondering all this, you know, it's we we have to remember that, you know, that I mean, to go back, God created the universe. He created it for himself. He didn't create it for us. We were putting the universe at his pleasure. He didn't need us to love because that's one of the that's one of the reasons why the Trinity proves itself. How could God know about love unless he had somebody to love? And the three persons love each other perfectly. So they know what love is. And, you know, he created man. Man fell. When man fell, all died. All died for all time. And the thing is, is that you know, it's kind of interesting, you know, I was just reading these comments in the chat, you know, Brian had said something about, you know, would you die for a guy that that unlike your kid? And Great Savannah said, well, Jesus did, yeah, but only if he was elect. I mean, I'm sorry that sounds like I'm trying to be funny, but I'm not. If the guy went elect, Jesus didn't die for him. But the thing is, he died for the lost, and he died for the ones that the father gave him. And we have no ability to do that because we are we are human, we are created to be human, and he is God. And he's got he had the plan from the very beginning to do what he's doing, and we have no right to try to usurp that by giving any of the glory to ourselves in terms of our salvation.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

That's what I think.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Thank you, brother. Sister May, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_07 12:21

You know, when we when are are we in verse 8 yet? No?

SPEAKER_05 12:28

No, not yet.

SPEAKER_07 12:29

Okay, that's what I thought. Well, I think even in this, even in this verse, it does set the stage for something great. Because how many of you would on a live for anybody, really, if you really think about it, if we're being honest, and you certainly wouldn't on a live for a lie, you know, so it's really deep to know that back even in the even in the other verse that when he died for the ungodly, we were unable to save ourselves, we couldn't please God because the carnal mind is enmity to God. We weren't choosing him, and when we think about Christ dying for the ungodly, it's almost like a paradox because the Lord Jesus Christ is so perfect, and we are the exact and complete opposite of anything that is Christ, and anything that he would have even wanted to die for it would it's it's what makes us unworthy, right? But what it also shows in our depravity, how salvation is an absolute miracle because a stony heart cannot believe it is impossible, and this is why we talk about all the time regeneration preceding faith. You have to have a new nature even to believe and have faith, because where you sit as a heart of stone, it's not happening, just like body says, dead man don't grab.

SPEAKER_05 14:07

That's right, Sister Michelle. Your thoughts.

SPEAKER_08 14:13

The only verse that pops up in my head, and and I don't want to jump ahead in Romans 10, but it's here, and I hear it all the time. Right here, Romans 10 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I hear that a hundred times on TikTok, but if you keep reading, it explains this call. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things. And then one more, but they have not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Amen. Absolutely. It's all there, amen, Sister Michelle. Mariah, your turn. You're up.

SPEAKER_06 15:25

Good evening, everyone. Well, you know, it's it's amazing to me because, you know, a lot of people, it just makes me think about even how I know we're talking about, will somebody die for someone good, you know? And a lot of the time when we're talking about the apostles, and if somebody would have died and they did die for Christ, but I think it's a strong evidence that it is true because you know, a lot of people would even beg to lie and say, Okay, fine, yeah, yeah, you know, to save their own life. So it amazes me that, you know, we have such a great God that He could even preserve his life. Right. That that some may even die for him that they could do such a thing. Sorry, my kids are tripping.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

No, it's all right, don't worry about it. No, this is this is good. This is really good. Everybody has a great, great input in there. Appreciate it. Great, great input. So now we get to verse eight.

Christ Dies For Sinners

SPEAKER_05 16:31

Now Paul makes the contrast. He's saying in verse 7 that it is rare and scarce that for a human to be willing to be a self-sacrifice for somebody who is of stellar reputation and is righteous in their eyes and is good and is a good person. You know, but look, but now he goes on and shows the contrast of what Christ did. It says, But God commends his love. Listen, God commends his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We were still sinners when he died for us. So this points out initially that Christ knew who he was dying for before we came to faith. This is what we spoke about in Revelation when we're talking about Christ being the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He knew who the objects of his redemption and his blood atonement sacrifice was for. He knew them by name. They were eternally his. And the Father gave, excuse me, the Father gave them to him. And he died for us while we were sinners, ungodly, and without strength. Which means and suggests plainly, not just infers that it requires, because of our condition, it requires a sovereign act of God to bring us to faith. It requires it. And so Paul, in verse 8, here, he makes this contrast to the patterns of humans, the way humans do things. God's love is demonstrated to us in a completely different way. That is not what God does. What he does and how he saves is demonstrated, his love is demonstrated on a completely different plane that is completely, in contrast, diametrically opposed to the way men assess those worthy of being died for. This is the beauty of the gospel. This is not something men can write. This cannot be manufactured in by the intellect of men and the reasoning of men. This is foolishness to all men. It makes no sense whatsoever. It makes no sense unless you have been made to believe. Unless you have been made to believe, unless you have been regenerate. Regenerated. It says here that God commends his love toward us. He commended it. You know what this means? It means he put it on display publicly. So that it is decisively proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, that God shows his love toward us while we were yet sinners. His love is demonstrated openly and publicly by the death of his son. By the death of his son. That is the proof. That's what Paul is saying. And the timing is also crucial. Think about it. The timing is crucial. In verse 8, what is the timing? The timing is while we were yet sinners. While we were yet sinners. Crucial timing. This is when he died for his people. While we were yet sinners. That was our state. That was our condition. That was our lot. When it comes to men on the rare occasion, maybe being willing to sacrifice themselves for someone else. There has to be requirements. And those requirements have to do with goodness and righteousness and holiness in their eyes, not in God's, in their own. But that's not what God does. God has one prerequisite. We are without strength. Second, we are ungodly. That's the state you're in when the salvation and the atoning work of Christ. This is the condition you were in when He died on the cross. When he atoned for you. And when He died that day, because we all like to say, in quote, it is finished. Every Christian, regardless of what side of the doctrinal scheme you're on, every Christian will go, Oh, yeah, his work was finished. But here's the thing: you need to understand

Finished Atonement And Sovereign Love

SPEAKER_05 22:26

this. Christ was our expiation. He was the atonement. By his death, those for whom he died were atoned for that day. That day. The atonement was yours. Those who believed, those who were, those who were in the divine mind, in terms of Christ being a like Brother Jeff says, a our propitiation. This was done for you before you were born. Before your natural birth. You and I, we were all in the divine mind. And Christ was to come here to redeem a people that had already been chosen by God to be redeemed. Already. See, this is not this is what the world doesn't want you to understand. They don't want you believing this. Devil will go out of his way to bring division amongst us, to divide us over these things. But his true people, they know who their father is. They know who their Lord is. They know who their great shepherd is. There was nothing in us to attract or merit such a love as this. Nothing. Nothing. If your will could choose Christ, that would be the grounds for meriting salvation. But that is what was lost in the garden. That is what Adam gave over to Satan. And as we talked about in the Saturday, in the Sunday morning message, the preoccupation. Satan occupied human souls. But one stronger than Satan came down into his house, bound the strong man, and took what was rightfully his, you and me.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

How could you not love this? How could you not love this?

SPEAKER_05 25:01

There was nothing in us that was attractive, nothing in us that was merited. Nothing. Our condition, being in the throes of ungodliness, was one that was still yet in active opposition and rebellion to God. And yet these are the folks that Christ shed his blood for. The wicked, impenitent, unregenerate, ungodly, without strength, sinners. We were in that condition. No beauty.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

We weren't cute, cuddly little babies. Not to hear.

SPEAKER_05 25:49

We were desperately wicked. And who can know it? Like Sister Savannah brought up a couple of weeks back. From Jeremiah 17, 9. And so this establishes the unconditional and sovereign character of the divine love, the love that God has towards his people. And the cross stands to this very day, this very moment, as the definitive expression showing that God's love originates entirely from himself. Your love for him comes from him. You love me because I first loved you. Is that not what the scripture says? You love me because I first loved you. It was my love that compelled you to me, not the other way around. You see how oddball our faith is. It doesn't make sense to the natural man. This is why we shouldn't get so frustrated and upset when people reject this teaching. Even those so-called believers who say this, they don't understand it because they're not believers. They are not believers. Brother Brian, he says, We can bring nothing to the table in regards to salvation. And he's right. Nothing. There is nothing that we have that merits. You may think you're a beautiful human being inside or out or both, and you are nothing in his sight. But a worm. A wretched soul in desperate need for salvation. Not a makeover. Not a makeover. Not an overdue. Not not not an improvement. Nothing can be improved. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Putting lipstick on a dead person? Makes no sense.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Putting jewelry on a person who's not alive? Putting fancy clothes on a person who's not alive? Brian, why do I gotta be a worm? But but you guys, you under but you this makes you see how beautiful it is. If God here's the thing: this is how you understand the tremendous love that God has for us. These are the people that He justifies. The wicked and the ungodly, the worm, the wretch. These are the ones. The rebellious, the impious. These are the ones, the ones who wave their fist at him, those who curse him day after day. These are the ones he breaks. These are the ones that he breaks. Sister May, thoughts.

Empty Hands Gratitude And Humility

SPEAKER_07 29:18

And that's that's deep. Because when you think about it, when you were saying you can't put jewelry on a dead person, you can't put lipstick, you can, but it amounts to nothing. Like when we think about our salvation, it's truly a miracle. An absolute miracle. But the thing I think we need to understand too is we couldn't bring anything before salvation. And we definitely can't bring anything after. Because even when we arrive before glory in front of the Lord, no matter where we were on our journey, no matter when the Lord received us unto himself, we all arrive empty-handed with nothing to offer. And when we throw those crowns at his feet, it's because he completed it all and the works were his, they weren't ours. And so we can glory in absolutely nothing before the feet of the Lord. And that is so, so humbling. Like you think about it on a level of I was nothing. And apart from you, Lord God, I'm still nothing. And so this is why we can't do anything apart from him. Because if we were apart from him for one second, we'd be absolutely nothing like we were before. Right. And that's man makes you cry, brother.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

Yep, it does. It should break the heart of every time we hear this, it should have that effect on us. Sister Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Man, I'm just thinking, you know, like like Sister Meg said, even the works that we do after we come to come to faith belong to him. I mean, everything good in us is him. I mean, we we should be, and I think, I mean, we we just need to be in awe. We need to take the focus off of us, and it's all about him. Every single thing, and we need to fall at our feet in gratitude and humility and realize that when we do do these things, it's because he's empowered us to do it. It's not because of anything that we do on our own. So I'm just right, God is so good, and I just fall more in love with him. Every time we have these sessions here, and and you bring you make these points, and other people make these points. And I think it's so easy for us to get into what's it called when you I'm at I'm at a loss for the words. When you don't just realize how big this is for us, we take it for granted, right? You know, that we're born again, and we look at it as okay, we're born again, but every single day. I need to be just remembering this stuff. Thank you all. This is so beautiful, Sister Mariah.

SPEAKER_05 32:09

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

Yeah, I think it's important. This is something that we should correct people on, you know, because the mainstream Christian worldview is it makes God the receiver and us the giver. And you know, Christ says that if you come up any other way, you are a robber and you are a thief. And if you are saying that you can get there, he says, I am the way. But if you can get there without the way or knowing the way, then who are you, God? You know, like we we're still in God's glory when we do that. And and you know, you don't realize how significant that is, you know, to take God's glory. That should just be punishable by death on on its own. But you know, yes, but God is so gracious and kind and patient with us. But I think that we should realize that He is the giver and we are the recipients.

SPEAKER_05 33:17

Right. That's right, sister. Excellent. Brother Jeff, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Brother Jeff? You're uh can't couldn't get my dog on Mike. I hit the wrong button. I think I nearly unhooked myself. That's all right. Yeah, I'm texting with somebody too at the same time, so I'm I'm I had to get my mind back on it. Well, you know, I mean