While We Were Yet Sinners (Romans 5:6-11), Part 3/4

If you’ve ever wondered, “What if I mess this up?” this conversation goes straight for the nerve of that fear, not with hype, but with Scripture and plain logic. We start with raw gratitude and personal stories of God’s mercy, including seasons of walking away, hitting rock bottom, and seeing relationships restored over time. That lived experience becomes the backdrop for a deeper question: what kind of salvation does God actually give? 

We camp in Romans 5:8–11 and follow Paul’s argument step by step. If Christ died for us “while we were still sinners,” what does that say about the strength of his atonement, justification, and reconciliation? We unpack the “much more” reasoning that grounds assurance of salvation in Christ’s blood and God’s promises, not in our decision-making or ongoing performance. We also connect it to the living ministry of Jesus, meaning being “saved by his life,” and why the resurrection is not an optional doctrine but the heartbeat of the gospel, echoed powerfully in 1 Corinthians 15. 

Along the way, we address why teaching that salvation can be lost doesn’t produce peace, it produces stress, exhaustion, and a subtle return to self-trust. If your confidence depends on you, even for a moment, fear will always win. If your confidence depends on a risen Christ who cannot die again, joy becomes a present reality and worship becomes a response, not a transaction. 

If this strengthened your faith, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs assurance, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations. What part of Romans 5 gives you the deepest peace right now?

Transcript

Overwhelmed By God’s Greatness

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The thing is, is I'm proceeding, especially lately. You know, with be after being retired, of course, now it seems like it's been forever, but you know, I spend I spend all day. I I I spend probably I don't spend quite as much time as I did when I went to med school in class, but pretty close. Every single day. And what I'm realizing from everything I read from all the church fathers and theologians and evangel well, not evangelists, so much preachers, and this and the word itself is that, you know, is that the the whole I mean the whole universe revolves around God. I mean, you know, there's no time during any part of the day that I'm not thinking about God, especially lately. And I know that I'm on the right track because that's where I want to be. I mean, it's one of those things where when you sit down and you realize that what he has done for you personally and and for the for you know self providing salvation to the world to get us out of this morass that we're in, it it just it's just so awesome. It wants to put you on your face all the time. And I I'm like Lisa, I mean Lisa might resonate on this. I mean, it's like, you know, I love him, I love him, I love him, you know, it's it's just bouncing back and forth. I mean, you know, I mean, I follow Lisa and TikTok and Facebook, and I'm just drinking in her stuff all the time. And, you know, it's just it's it's just amazing. And, you know, in the fact that we are, you know, we don't need to beat ourselves. I mean, you know, it's obvious that we are nothing compared to God. But I mean, I used to go to church where it was a PCA church for the elder every time he prayed, boy, we were worms. We were worms, man. And I'm thinking, you know, I know that. So don't tell me for the five millionth time, you know, I already know this. And and you know, it's just uh it's it's but it's just a humbling thing to realize, like Isaiah to look and see God sitting high upon his throne, and John seeing Christ revealed in his glory, not to the point of taking his life. Although, you know, we say he was in a vision, but I don't know, he might have been there. You know, they it they took Paul said he went to the seventh heaven. The third heaven, I mean. And the the third heaven is heaven.

unknown 2:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

And you know, that kind of thing. I know I'm rambling, I'm sorry. But uh but I'm just I'm just overwhelmed, and I just want to be closer to him all the time. And I just, you know, the the the scripture wrap it up, Jeff. Yeah, I'll wrap it up, Meg.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah. I'll wrap it up when I'm done. Listen to her. Listen to her, dis give me diss this old man. I'll sh I'm shutting up now.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

All right, Sister

Testimonies Of Grace And Restoration

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Vanessa, go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 3:02

I just wanted to say, you know, the reason we should and do, I do, I don't know about anybody else, I'm sure they do, but praise God every day and thank him for everything, good and bad. And his love is so expandable, I guess that's the word I want to use. It's just I I I can't get enough of him. And and I'm sure that's what Jeff was trying to say. I love him so much, and I can't ever get enough. All I want to do is be filled with the Spirit constantly, and I know that's not possible, but you know, I just I just think that everyone should know that they should praise God every day. He needs to be praised and blessed every day.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Right, right. Amy I says Savannah.

SPEAKER_06 4:00

Yeah, it just made me think about the fact that even though I was raised in a Christian home and I was baptized by my own choice at six years old, even I, you know, later on in life disowned God and like wanted nothing to do with him. And yet still, even then, God was gracious enough to say, you know, you know, you know what I mean. Like, even God was gracious enough to show me his love. Even God was gracious enough to choose me in that, and that is more than I could ever ask for.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

Absolutely, absolutely. I understand, sister. I I'm with you on that one. Totally with you on that one. Miss White.

SPEAKER_09 4:58

You know, it just takes me back to that corner in the hotel room where, you know, the doctors couldn't do anything. I'd been sent to the psych ward, you know, I tried to take myself out. I was literally physically, mentally, and spiritually hopeless. And he had he had that guy read to me in the hotel room that morning that and he he gave me life that morning. And then it was some years before I was even to understand what happened. And sh and the whole spectrum of it. And it just it it brings me to tears. Every other morning, you know. I'm just I missed out on so much of my children's childhood, and and they still talk to me, and he's restoring our relationships, and you know, he's just I just stand in awe. That's all I do. I stand in awe.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Absolutely. I understand.

SPEAKER_08 5:59

Sister Sean just reading Romans, it just makes

Isaiah 53 And God’s Strange Pleasure

SPEAKER_08 6:05

me think about the whole chapter of Isaiah 53.

SPEAKER_05 6:08

Yep, it does.

SPEAKER_08 6:09

Showing showing us the state we were in and what Christ would actually happen to him. And it says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him. You know, it pleased God to accomplish redemption through Christ for us. Telling us that our iniquities were laid upon him, the chastisement of our peace was upon him. The only way that we could achieve peace was through Christ.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

Right.

SPEAKER_08 6:37

So that we would no longer be the children of wrath. And so I just really enjoy Romans. Paul just opens it all up for us.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Yeah, what you said in Isaiah 53 is really profound. I mean, every time I read Isaiah 53 and I read that part that you just cited where it says, it pleased God to do this, it pleased him.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

You know, because that goes against the human mindset. That it that it pleased the father to bruise his son. And it's it's it's just it's it's an it's just an unfathomable thing to understand and try to and try to really understand. And it and is in and again, it's what I mean when I say that this is not something, this this word of God is not something that man can write. It's not something that men can come up with. This is this that that, like Brother GT says, that's this is transcendent. This is something that is otherworldly. It pleased the Father to deliver up his son for the sins, for our sins. And it's it's just beyond understanding. Sister Meg, before I go, verse nine, you have something you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

I just

Thieves And Robbers From Genesis

SPEAKER_00 7:55

wanted to add to what Mariah said about being a thief and the robber, because in John chapter 6, verse 65, it says, Nothing can be given unto you unless it is granted from heaven. And so when you go all the way back to Genesis and you're looking at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it wasn't that the tree was bad. It says, and Eve took from the tree and ate. That wasn't hers to take. And see, when we when we go in another way or try to come in, we're takers. And if it's not granted by God for us to take or partake, we cannot partake or take from it. And so if that was something that they did, they took something that wasn't theirs to take. And God commanded that and gave his word on it. And so that's essentially what it is. If anybody thinks that they can come in another way, you're a thief and a robber. And it goes all the way to the back to the beginning, which is mind-blowing to me when you start to think about Genesis. But man, God is so good.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

He is, he really is.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

So, verse 7 again, but as I go

Romans 5 And The Logic Of Assurance

SPEAKER_03 9:05

into uh verse eight, for scarcely for a righteous man will one die. Yet, peradventure for a good man, some would even dare to die. Verse eight. But God commends his love toward us, and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Verse nine. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. And so now you have a another layer of Paul's logical progression and that he's now making, which is that if Christ, if he already accomplished greater work, which is excuse me, justifying us by his blood, then the lesser future aspect of this is completely certain. We shall be saved from his wrath. Now look what he says here. He says, much more than being now justified by his blood. So Paul is saying that if Christ would justify the ungodly, the wicked, the sinner, those who are without strength, you know, those who were unlovely. God loves the ungodly, or God loves the the ungodly, the ungodly and the unlovable. And so he's saying that if Christ died on the cross and shed his blood for this unlovely people, this wicked, ungodly without strength people, if he did that, how much more shall he keep them saved from the wrath from his wrath after having justified them? So again, what he's saying is this he's going like, listen, if if he will go through all this trouble for the wicked whom he justifies and makes and declares righteous, how much more shall his effort be in preserving that justified soul so that they are ultimately glorified? Here again, he's making this argument about the impossibility for any of his people for whom he died, for whom he died to be lost or bereft of that self, that final salvation. He's going, if I did this when they were the work, when they were worthless and a worm, imagine what I'll do after having made them righteous. This is what Paul is saying. Much more than now being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. In other words, there is no possible way that a person who has been justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, there's no possible way that they will ever see one hair singed by the fiery flames of the lake of Gehenna, the lake of fire. It's an impossibility. That is what verse nine is saying. Justification is presented as a completed, final, absolute reality that is grounded in the sacrificial death of Christ. In other words, if a person who has been justified by the death of Christ, if a person has been justified by his death, and that person can still not find salvation in the end for whatever reason, their own effort, whatever it may be, they jumped out of the back of the pickup truck. That means there's something faulty on the part of God. Either the death of Christ and his blood atonement sacrifice was anemic as it was as the blood of bulls and goats, or God in his omniscience, did not have the omniscience to see that you would fall and chose to justify you by Christ's blood anyway. It makes no sense. So something is wrong with God, however, you look at it. And then you have the Holy Spirit saying, Well, I did what I could in the regeneration work, but the person just decided he didn't want to hang around anymore, so I had to take up residence somewhere else. You see how foolish a person who is truly blood bought. A person who is truly blood bought to be finally lost means that the Father was, and the Son and the Holy Spirit were all idols. False, false God. No power to do anything. Omnipotence means nothing if it can't keep you saved. It means nothing. God's election, God's Bible, it's all worthless. The atoning blood of Christ didn't actually atone for anything. It only made salvation possible, not actual, sufficient, not efficient, desired, but not applied, unless the person decides. You have to understand how silly this looks. Because this is a smear upon the reputation of the one whose salvation is determined and is based upon promises. How can you be kept by the Holy Spirit? How can you be kept if you can be lost? What is the keeping part? Explain explain the keeping part. It's it's so silly. And yet you get these these these armchair theologians telling people this with tremendous great exhausting confidence. But they it is a foolish teaching taught by fools. That's what they're teaching. This Arminian doctrine is wicked, and we are not to give them an inch. I said this a thousand times. We do not give them an inch, not one single solitary inch. Amen, brother. We cannot acquiesce to this nonsense. Well, maybe they just don't know yet. That is not the gospel, and it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. And anything that compromises that gospel does not result in the power of God granting salvation. It can't. It can't. So he says, much more now, much more than. So he's he's emphasizing in his argument assurance. He's saying, Listen, look what I did when you were ungodly, when you were without strength. If you can believe that I justified you and that my blood atoned for your for your for your life, and that my appropriation was turns away God's wrath, if I've done all that when you are worthless, he says, much more then. After having begun this work, he will certainly complete it. If he did if he if he did this when you were the filthiest person that you could that you were in his in his in his sight, how much more shall he preserve you after having been washed by his blood? That's what he's saying. That's what he's saying. In other words, he put it in in Philippians when he rightly when he said, when he said, it is he who works in you to do and to will of his good pleasure. And he just says, whatever God, whatever he says started in you, he is confident of this very thing that he will complete it until the day of Christ. If he starts it with you, he will complete it until the day of redemption, until the day the Lord Jesus Christ returns. That's what he's saying right here in Romans 5, verse 9. That's exactly what he's saying. Confident of this very thing, Philippians 1, 6, confident of this very thing. Whatever God has begun in you, the work he has begun, he shall accomplish it. And notice that he says, it's the work that he began, not the work you began by your submission or by your decision or by your acceptance. It is something he does.

Kept From Wrath By Christ

SPEAKER_03 18:32

He does. Look at verse 10. Look at verse 10. He says, For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God. For if we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. Here he goes again. Much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. He's saying it again. If I did what I did well when you were his enemy and you were reconciled, if you reconciled you while you were his enemy by the death of his son, how much more, after having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life? If he died while you were in this wicked condition, how much more shall you be reconciled by by his life? This is what he's saying. And notice when it says for if. For if. Now people take if in almost every instance of the scripture. And they take this if as the if of condition. And in many places, it is the if of condition. If you do this, this will happen. If you do that, this will happen. That's not the if here. That's not if right here. What he means when he says for if, he's saying that for since. In other words, since we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. How much more being reconciled shall we be saved by his life? If is referring to the condition, since we were enemies. You may ask, well, how do you know that? Where is that in the Greek? Well, how many people on earth that have ever been born were not his enemies? How many? No one. All were his enemies. So what he's saying is that since when we were enemies, and he's saying, since because those who believe are no longer his enemies. But there was a time where we were. And since we were enemies, when we were reconciled by the death of his son, how much more after having been reconciled shall we be saved by his life? In other words, look at what he did. Look at what he did for you by his death. Imagine what he's gonna do for you by his life. That's what the apostle is saying. It's amazing. Is it not? It's amazing. The same reasoning extends further. The prior condition is described as one of enmity and an active hostility toward God. That's what he's talking about. We were his enemy. We were at enmity with him. We had an active hostility. When we were converted, we were converted at the point of when we were still enemies, his enemies. We didn't become his friend first, and then he saw that we were friendly now, we were willing to party with him, and now he saves us. That's not what he's saying. Your condition was his enemy. You were actively at enmity with the Most High when He saved you. Your repentance is not the result of salvation. Your salvation is the result. Your salvation is the result, or your repentance is the result of your salvation, is what I'm trying to say. Without regeneration, there is no repentance. Repentance, as just like faith, is a gift. And they are twin sisters, faith and repentance. They go together. They go together. And even in that state of hostility, reconciliation was accomplished by the death of his son. And if such a work was achieved while we were enemies, the certainty of final salvation is even greater now that the rest reconciliation and being made at peace with God has taken place and has been accomplished. Like I said, if he did this for us, if he died, and and his death resulted in our justification, imagine what he does for us by his life. That's what the apostle's saying. And then he says, Saved by his life. Much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And what does this point to? It points to his ongoing living ministry, the living ministry of Christ. Which means that the only way that we could ultimately die after having been reconciled is if somehow Christ could die. That's what he's saying. Because I live, you shall live. Though you were dead, yet you shall live. We live because Christ lives. That's what he's saying. When he died, with our sin being on him, we died too. When he died, his death is evidence that we were dead. Otherwise, there would have been no need for him to come in the first place. He came to save dead sinners. So if our death was certain because of his death, then our life is certain because we've been saved by his life. See, this is what makes hearts shake with joy. That's what this does. If it doesn't, something is wrong with you. Brother Brian says it's why resurrection is such a key part of the gospel. The resurrection is everything to the gospel. It's everything. Without that, the gospel is worthless and useless. Nothing without resurrection. There's no salvation. Christ's death was in vain, and we are yet in our sins. It is the crux of the Christian faith, resurrection. Go ahead and read it, Meg.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

It says, Now if Christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty, and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up. If in fact the dead do not rise, for if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile. You are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life we have hope in Christ, we are all men the most pietable.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

Amen. Powerful, powerful verse.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

So

Resurrection Life And Joy Today

SPEAKER_03 26:40

the last verse in this section, uh verse eleven, and Paul says, and not only so, not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Now, in the last verse, we under we understand that it is his resurrection, his resurrection life that ensures the preservation and the completion of our salvation. And it guarantees that all those who are reconciled will be fully brought to the final realization of our salvation. But here he goes on, not only so, but we joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. So this passage here culminates in a present rejoicing. We have the right to rejoice today. Today. We don't have to wait until we see if we have the grounds for rejoicing. Paul is making it clear that if we have been justified by faith by his death, and now that he lives, we are guaranteed to live, and therefore we rejoice as long as he lives. So assuming he can't die, which is true, then we cannot die. Our salvation can't perish. We have eternal life, not eternal life pending. We have it now. The believer's joy is not only in the benefits received, but they are in God Himself, who is now approached as reconciled rather than opposed. We have been reconciled, so now we have peace with God. There is no war between us and him anymore. There's no more war with him. Sister Grace.

SPEAKER_06 28:58

So if that verse is saying that we should be rejoicing today and that we are at peace with God, well, I mean, if I thought I could lose my salvation, I would not be rejoicing every day. I would not be at peace. I would be stressed out, I would be worried all the time. You know, I I so and I would be exhausted, really. So so that's what I don't understand why some people are so like blinded to this. I mean, maybe God blinds them on purpose, but in some cases, but you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

If you if anyone who doesn't see that is blinded, and everyone who is blind is blinded by God until he opens their eyes. You know, but but you're right. God is the one who has to open their eyes, they're blind, but you're right. I mean, you you you you nailed it. I mean, that's the that's the reality of it is. Because people will tell me you preach a gospel, you preach a gospel of fear. You mean to tell me, I tell people that if you trust in Christ, it's impossible to lose your salvation because of what we're talking about right

Why Losing Salvation Breeds Fear

SPEAKER_03 30:10

now. But you tell people that that after being saved by Christ and justified by his blood, you can still lose your salvation, and that's not fear. That's fearful, as you just described, sister. That's fearful, that's scary. Because what that says is it's still up to me. And I say, if it's at ever at any time up to me, my salvation is gone. If even if it's up to me for 30 seconds, I'm dead. I'm a dead man. If there is one sliver that can slinky its way through a peephole, one sliver of sin that can sliver through a peephole, I'm toast. I'm amazed at the pride and arrogance of those who teach salvation can be lost, and yet they have salvation. Not realizing that their pride is the biggest sin of all, believing that they can lose their salvation and yet they are saved. You're talking about pride on a massive scale. That's the most deadly, that's the most that's the deadliest belief you can ever have. And it's even more deadly to teach people that. A joy that is mediated through, as it says here, through our Lord Jesus Christ, emphasizing again that all blessings come through him. All blessings come through him, by him, through him, and for him. You have to remember, we belong to him, we are his.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

What keeps coming in my mind is what Sister Mariah said. I don't know which life it was in, but she said they expose their own hearts when they say you can lose salvation, meaning, you know, they expose the fact that they don't trust fully in Christ. Or they they expose the fact that they believe you have to work and they have to do it. And I'll never forget that because when I hear somebody say that, it really does expose their like what they're thinking. They cannot have faith in the Lord and believe their salvation can be lost. Right.

Merit, Pride, And God’s Glory

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Their faith isn't it, it isn't complete, it isn't from God. Because when God saves you and you receive the faith that the Lord gives you, you you know. You know it's yours and you are grateful. So that's something that's gonna stick with me forever. I think that was so, so, so amazing.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

It is, it truly is amazing. And this listen, every everyone who believes that their salvation is something that is a result of merit on their part, brings a demerit upon our Lord. That's a fact. If you are saved by merit, by your own personal merit, then at the root of that is God's suffering or incurring demerit.