While We Were Yet Sinners (Romans 5:6-11), Part 4/4

If you’ve ever wondered why Romans can sound so fearless about grace and so serious about warning at the same time, we sit with that tension and refuse the easy shortcuts. We talk through the question behind so much Christian anxiety: are we “toast” if we don’t behave well enough, or is salvation truly God’s sovereign work from start to finish?

We dig into Romans 5 and slow down on one loaded word: atonement. We argue that atonement is not a vague religious idea but reconciliation, being made at one with God through the blood of Christ. From there, we connect the dots to assurance of salvation, eternal security, and perseverance of the saints. If God makes His people one with Him, can that union be torn apart later? We bring in Philippians 1:6, John 15, Hebrews 6, Jude 24, and the lived reality that Christians still sin yet do not return to wrath because Christ has already paid it all.

We also address the fear that honest preaching of grace will create antinomianism. Our take is simple: we tell the whole counsel of God, we stop trying to manage outcomes, and we trust the Holy Spirit to do what God’s word promises to do. The episode closes with encouraging final reflections on sanctification, humility, fruit, and why God’s sovereignty is not a cold doctrine but the reason our hope actually holds.

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Transcript

Grace Versus Works Tension

SPEAKER_04 0:00

And I'm not willing to say that. Because it's not true. Brother D.T., welcome, brother. D.T. you there?

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Yeah, I'm sorry. Can't top what you you're saying. There it's definitely a nuanced perspective because we come into a paradox between God's perspective that we are privileged to see with Paul, the greatest apostles' writings. And then we have the delivery of the message when Paul is criticizing a bunch of people who are probably counterfeit Christians. We don't know. Right. And they're most likely Nicolacians going around abusing the freedom.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

And so he has to address it. And so when he's addressing it, we're just seeing the aftermath of this mixed message, at least seemingly on the surface. And we're saying, well, what gives? Are we supposed to be behaving a certain way? Otherwise, we're toast? Or is it completely God's sovereign grace that we are saved by? And so because we have this diverse group that's being preached to, everyone is confusing the message, and that that's not intended for originally.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Or was I anyway.

Atonement Means Being Made One

SPEAKER_04 1:30

So he says, not only so, but we also joy in God through the Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. And the you know the atonement is, I think, probably one of the most misunderstood words in all of scripture when it comes to the visible church. Meaning all people who claim to be Christian outwardly. The term tone atonement means reconciliation. It means reconciliation. It means that you have been made at one with God, reconciled, peace has been established, the enmity between you and God is gone. The relationship with God is restored and has already been received when you believe. Now here's the idea. Atonement needs to be made at one. You were here, God was here. Atonement means now you're just one. Now, we are told in the scriptures that anyone who joins himself, any man who joins himself with a harlot becomes one with her. Did God join himself to a harlot? No. He didn't. Unchaste before we were born again. But when we were born again and regenerated in Christ, he calls us, Paul, chaste virgins. Chaste, made pure, purified. How? By the blood of Christ, like we see here. We have a right standing with God, like Brother Abel John says. Atonement means to be made at one, to be made one with God. You can't be made one with him and then separated from him again. That's an impossibility. You would think you would understand enough about the nature of God to understand that by his nature alone. Is there anything as like is there anything that we can say that he starts that he doesn't finish? Because if that's true, then Paul was lying in Philippians 1 6. He that has begun a good work in you will complete it till the very end, to the day of Christ. Men get all wrapped up in their emotions when they look at these things. But what I understand is that a true Christian understands that God works in them to do that which He pleases. We are His workmanship. We are God's workmanship. He made vessels of honor out of us. Vessels that He pleases, that please Him. So that means that whatever is necessary, whatever it is we exhibit in this world after having been brought to faith that are acceptable to God when we go to the throne, these works are not ours. They're his. Whatever bad works that we do, I don't know a single Christian who is sinless after they after they have been born again in terms of having to face wrath for those sins. Because all those sins that are yet to be done, Christ has already died for. And a lot of Christians have a hard time saying this because they think that somehow they're going to impact people's mentalities and turn people into antinomians. Those who operate and function as if there is no law governing their ways. Did I clean the garage right? Did I mow the lawn right? Did I do okay in school? We want to please our parents. How much more? Like Paul uses that expression, how much more shall you not be this way toward the father? Human relationships and human interactions with family should make it should be enough for us to understand this. And we need to understand it to the nth degree when it comes to the Father who works in us to do and to will of his good pleasure. We all read these things, but somehow when we are talking about it, we feel that if we if we confess these truths that are clearly biblical, that we're going to be partly making people feel like they have a license. We think we're giving a license to people to sin when we tell them the truth. That's man manufacturing his own way of dissemination, of the disseminating God's word. We are supposed to tell the truth and we are supposed to give the whole counsel. Why does he tell us to give the whole counsel? Because we might be inclined to cut corners because we think people won't receive some of his things the right way. Some of his doctrines the right way. We don't worry about that. We tell the whole counsel, and it's up to God to work that out. We have to have reverence for his word and trust for the work of the Holy Spirit to do what is intended to be done by the word,

Why Union With God Cannot Break

SPEAKER_04 7:40

because his word will never come back to him void. Whether it saves or whether it condemns, that is the purpose for which it went out. That's the purpose. Atonement makes us one. That means God, being one in God, we know part of his nature is that he is indivisible. God is not divided, can't be divided. He is not made of parts and components. So if we are in Christ and we are in God, we too, along with him, cannot be separated from him because that would be divided. That can't happen. Analogies and metaphors, they always break down, but the essential thing is that when whatever it is that God has put together, let no man tear asunder. It can't happen. God doesn't need our help to make to assess whether or not some part somebody can receive this particular truth or that particular truth. We tell it all. Let God work it out. Leave it to him. Salvation in the final analysis is not merely a future, but present, producing joy rooted in the certainty of what God has accomplished, He will complete. Whatever He has accomplished in His Son for us is already accomplished and is present with us now. And He will continue it and complete it. Why? What evidence do we have of that? Our Lord and Savior still lives. Still lives. And we are preserved by the power of his resurrection and his endless life. Be provoked and be persuaded. Last words, and then we will wrap it up. Last words, and we'll wrap it up. Brother Jeff, last word for tonight, brother.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

God is good, God is great. But you know, the thing is, you know what just popped in my head, you know how these thoughts pop in my head. And I'll try to make it short just for you, Meg. Jeez, calling me out in the chat. You gotta quit that. The is that, you know, God is not a God of time. He's outside of time, right? And that means that he saw it all. I mean, Jesus saw his own crucifixion because he could see the future. Isn't that crazy? But the thing is, you know, the the point I want to make is it's all about him. It's all about him. And, you know, whatever I'm supposed to do, I'm led by the Holy Spirit. That's called sanctification. I'm happy to do it. I'm I'm ecstatic to do it. I'm glad I'm getting to know him closer every single day. That's what I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

All right, Sister Sean, your last word for tonight, sister. Always like hearing from you.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

Yeah, I just was glad to be here. And um, like you said, just looking at this scripture and how looking at Paul, and even Paul said in 1 Timothy 1 and 15 that Christ came to save sinners. He said, This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And so it's just a humbling experience to see, like I said, just looking at Isaiah 53 and studying that, breaking that down, what he did for us. And so I'm humbled by that every day that God commended his love to us while we were in that state, in that undeserving state. And so I'm just grateful to be here and I'll be back, of course.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Amen, sister. Always glad to have you here, Sean. Always, Sister Uh Mariah.

Telling The Whole Counsel Boldly

SPEAKER_08 11:57

Yes, as I'm thinking about it, it's more it's not about loss of salvation, but it's like they say that they can return the salvation, you know, because we're bought at a price. You would have to return it. What I'm thinking. You know what I mean? But I was thinking of this scripture in Hebrews 6, 17, where stop screaming, please. Or 16 and 17, it says, For men verily swear by a greater, and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of strife, wherein God willing, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel confirmed it with an oath that by two immutable things in which it was impossible for God to lie, that we may have a strong consolation who have fled to refuge to lay a hold upon the hope set before us, which this hope is an anchor to our souls. So, yeah, praise God for that. That he cannot lie and that he has confirmed it by an oath.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Amen. Sister Savannah, last word. Grace, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, great, great study tonight. Thank you, Jonathan. I appreciate your time and your wisdom as always. Um but yeah, yeah, the main thing that I pretty much got from this study is that um Jesus Christ paid it all for us while we were still sinners. And so how much more should we live, you know, our life for him because how much more glorious it is in what he does in his life, you know, beyond his resurrection. And when you really understand that at its core, it's really just all you can do is be at awe in God's power.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Right, right. Amen, sister. Appreciate that. Brother D.T., you want to give us a last word tonight, brother? Glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I am glad I am here as well. Jonathan, you are a credit to the faith. You are gifted, and thank you for sharing what God has given you, because God has given everything that anything that that any one of us have.

unknown 14:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So we're supposed to collectively bring that together, and that's what you don't you're doing. And the fact that you have everyone here on this panel, that is an indication of fruit. You would not be here if you didn't care about God.

unknown 15:09

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

You just wouldn't be. You would have no interest. It would not be it would not be a part of your life. And I see everyone here, and everyone is often talking about lost salvation and things because it's it's something that matters to you. Right. It should matter to you, it's eternal, right? But we are also given an indication that we belong to Him. And that indication is the fruit. The fact that we are getting

Joy Now Through Christ’s Finished Work

SPEAKER_00 15:40

together, that's your indication. You should have you should have reassurance, because these are the words of Christ. If you if you if you if you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. So this serves for your own assurance that yes, I belong to him. Why? Because you see his fruit manifest in your life, because his Holy Spirit dwells within you. So just remind yourself that. That's that's when you're feeling like there's a lot of waves, there's a lot of storms, there's a lot of turbulence or whatever it is, just recognize why are you here if not for him?

SPEAKER_04 16:27

That's right. Thank you, DT Matt. Appreciate the kind words, generous words, man. And you know, you always have so many great things to say about the Lord and nice things too. So I know you're I know that we share we share that love. Like many people here, we all share that love here as well. So I appreciate the generous words, brother. I really do. And you're welcome here any day. You know that any day. I don't know if I can go on your speed question thing that you, your game show thing that you got going on sometime, but one day one of these days I might make my way up there and try to and try to see if I can answer those questions. Sister Vanessa, last words.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Man, Jonathan, it was just as good as every other night. I love your teachings, you know that. Um, but I was thinking, you know, feeding off uh DT and the branches. I was thinking about John 15, 5. You know, and he says, I am the vine, and you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit apart from me, you can do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

And it's so amazing to me how people do not understand these people that think they're Christians. I get so aggravated, and I know I shouldn't, but I do. It's because it's our Jesus, you know? And it's like, if you're a Christian, why can't you read what this says? Right. And all that does is make me sad because I know that they're not a Christian. Right. If they can't understand, right, right, I don't think that they're a Christian. But that's what I, you know, I was feeding off of him. He was talking about, you know, being in Jesus, and I'm thinking that the branches is who we are.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

And so, you know, God bless everyone and have a great night.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

Thank you for that, sister. You too. You know, what you said about in John, and in in uh John 15, 5, when Christ says, without me, you can do nothing. That's exactly what what Paul is confirming in verse 6 in chapter 5 here, when he says, For when you were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. He's Paul is talking about our condition before. And so in Christ says, Without me, you can do nothing. So when you look at this, this is what Paul is sort of confirming that the only way that you can be justified by faith is if Christ does something. He has to do something, and if he doesn't, nothing gets done. And if he doesn't, it's impossible to do. So you're right. Absolutely dead on, sister. Dead on. Sister Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Well, tonight was so

Final Words On Assurance And Fruit

SPEAKER_01 19:10

reassuring and so comforting. And I think I pray that anyone who had doubts before, I pray that if they're in this room and they were doubting that after reading these verses and hearing that maybe they will just relax and put their faith in Christ, it is such a such a wonderful place to be. Even, you know, we talked about even in Job when we go through these things, knowing that that it is it is God ordained, being in his hand is the most comforting place to be. And it's it's where we are. So I just love it. And I'm I thank you. Great as always. I think about what DT said, and here we are every single night, and we're even when you're not here, we're going, I s Jonathan, go. We is he is he coming on tonight? He needs to come off. I know. So yeah, we this is our our daily bread, and it's beautiful. Thank you all.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

Thank you, sister. Sister Meg, last words.

SPEAKER_06 20:17

Like I said, when you think about this too long, it really brings you to your knees because you said something in the study. You said, Did God did God save a harlot? And in a sense, he kind of did because we were all evil and we were all ungodly. But through the Lord's, for the through the Lord's mercy and his grace, you said he turns us into chaste virgins. Chaste virgins. And we were never that, right? But he turned us into that, and I had me thinking of Jude 124, and it says, Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory. Right. Here's the kicker with exceeding joy.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 21:36

And it says in Hebrews chapter 12, it says, looking unto Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith. Listen to this. Who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Jesus. Has joy in accomplishing the Father's will. He has joy in redeeming his people. And he has joy in bringing us to glory. And all of these things, to know that it's just as much joy we have in him when we see him face to face, he's gonna have just as much joy to see us. And it was all him. All him every bit. There was there was nothing that he didn't do. And it and that's why I think it just saddens me so much to hear people say that they can lose their salvation. I don't understand it. And I'm I am 99.99% convinced it's unbelief. It has to be because you are saying our God is a failure, and every time people open their mouth to say it, they're saying that he doesn't effectually save his people.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 23:00

That's exactly that's saying and that is not I it's not even heresy. It's it's way beyond that.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

It's beyond that. It's sacrilege.

SPEAKER_06 23:11

It is.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

It's sacrilege. That's what it is. That's what it is. And you know, you so I think it was you. I'm I don't know if it was you. Somebody asked me one night

Sovereignty Rest And Gospel Boldness

SPEAKER_04 23:20

while we were on the live about what is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That's a perfect example of it. If you believe that your salvation is completed because of what you do, you are attributing to you what can only be should only be attributed to the Lord Himself. That's the definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Very definition. And so men finding comfort in anything else, and which is a blessing from God, but finding comfort and giving credit for that comfort to anything other than God, that's blasphemy. That's blasphemy. And see, you know, this is what men don't understand. We can't trifle with God's words. We we just can't trifle with his word.

SPEAKER_06 24:13

At all. Not even a word, not another word, nothing, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

Nothing.

SPEAKER_06 24:20

It's imperative.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 24:22

And we need to start being bold in the word of God, getting this written on our hearts, right, and coming out here and proclaiming the gospel of truth and not being ashamed of it, just like it says in Romans chapter 1, 16 through 17. We can't be.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

Can't be. That's the that's everything. It it is all Him, it is all the Lord through and through, nothing on our part that contributes to our salvation. The only prerequisite that we bring to the table is sin, ungodliness, wickedness, and a foul, corrupt, darkened soul. That's all we that's all we bring to the table. That's it. That's it. And he still has to come get us. You know? So we were in Satan's house. Christ had to break in into that house and bind the strong man and then take us. Take us. Not ask us, would you like to go? How do you think about that? Have a nice car outside. This is not, see, this is we we don't understand sometimes God's sovereignty. We don't understand who he is. And this is gonna, you know, and people, you know, why are you always talking about God's sovereignty? Because that's all there is. What he has said, what he has promised, what he is doing, it is all about his sovereignty. And that's what we rest in. That's where our hope lies. Because it is his sovereignty that makes it, that makes it so that his promises can be actually accomplished, so that we can be certain that what he has promised, he will do on our behalf. What else can we say?

SPEAKER_06 26:07

Know why we talk about John God's sovereignty, Jonathan? Because it's his sovereignty, it's not man's. Man wants to be sovereign. It's not yours. This is why we talk about it. And no matter how much we talk about it, it needs to be known. It's not your sovereignty. That's right. It's his.

SPEAKER_05 26:26

It's his.

SPEAKER_06 26:26

And his amen. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

His alone sister nailed it. Nailed it. You know, when I get to hear when I and and like hearing, you know, all of you and you know, us talking about these things and being on the same page with it, like here in Savannah, you know, it's just such a blessing. It's just such a blessing. And you know, you know, so so anyway, Meg, you want to close this out?