Revelation: The Church of Ephesus (Rev 2:1-7), Part 5/6

If you’ve ever read “dead in sin” and wondered how anyone could sincerely be told to believe, you’re not alone and we don’t dodge it. We walk straight into the tension between total depravity and real human responsibility, then ask the question that drives the whole conversation: what actually enables a person to have faith in Christ?

We bring key passages to the table and refuse to keep things abstract. John 3 forces us to face the relationship between believing and receiving life. Romans pushes us to separate law keeping from trusting Christ and to rethink what it means when the gospel is called “the power of God unto salvation.” Ephesians 2:8–9 raises the gift question head-on: is faith itself given in a way that cannot fail, or can grace be resisted? Along the way, we talk election, the meaning of “finished” at the cross, and whether justification is something accomplished once for God’s people or something applied only at the moment of belief.

Then John 6:37 turns the volume up: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.” We debate whether that language is simply descriptive of believers or a promise of effectual coming, and we connect it to Matthew 1:21 and the phrase “His people” without slipping into universalism. Listen through to the end and tell us where you land: what’s the real difference between the one who believes and the one who rejects? If you find this helpful, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your take.

Transcript

Total Depravity And Human Ability

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If we allow, if we allow for total depravity, which you said you did, now just to be fair, are you sticking to that? The man is totally depraved.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I don't think we're depraved of choosing God, but I do believe that there is a type of sin nature within us where we do need God's grace. So I don't think it's possible without God, but I don't think it's impossible once you have Him. So what I'm saying is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So how would you define depraved? So if he says that a leopard can't change his spots, how does a leopard that can't change his spots change his spots?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Well, see, that that's a common verse that that I mean I don't want to say Calvinist, but I'm just gonna use Calvinist to just paint the picture. I don't want to put you in a box. But the most what what kind of Calvinism do you hold to, though? Just curious, so I can understand.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

That's what I'm saying. I don't like for instance, there are Calvinists who believe that you that you should baptize babies. I don't believe that. So that may be not a Calvinist or a Calvinist. So so that's why I want to stick, that's why I want to stick to the particular doctrine. So if men, like Paul says in Ephesians chapter 2, verse 1, are born dead and in sin and trespasses, and that a new birth is required in order to believe, when does a man believe, before or after the new birth?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Okay, so now you're talking about pre-faith regeneration, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

No, I'm talking about depravity. What I'm saying is that man must be totally depraved if a new birth is required to be saved.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Right. I I don't take to depraved to mean morally incapable of making choices.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Okay, so that takes me back to what Paul says in Ephesians 2.1. If men are men are born in sin and trespasses, and if there's none that have done good, no night one, like Paul says and Isaiah says, then where does man get the ability to choose rightly? Without from a new birth.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So in that context, when when Paul says there's none that do good, Romans chapter 3 is all about the law. So he's saying there is none that do good in accordance with the law. Because when he quotes the book of Psalms, he says their mouth is an opal sepulchre, you know, so on and so forth, he gets to the part where he starts talking about how to become righteous. And he says, by the works of the law, no flesh shall be justified in his sight. So he says, every mouth will be shut and stopped who try to keep the law. So I don't think he's saying, because you're incapable of doing good in accordance with the law, therefore you can't put your faith in Christ. I think faith is a separate category apart from doing good. So you you can say, yeah, is faith a good thing? Yeah, it's a good thing, so therefore it's in that category. But I think faith has a distinct category of its own that God has created that is the only thing you I think faith is the only one thing that a person can do to be saved. I don't think you can keep the law.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

I agree. I agree with that. So let me ask you a question. Faith, does it come before regeneration or after?

Faith And Regeneration Order

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I believe faith. Well, if you look at, we'll just go to the scripture. If you look at John 3, I'm I'm going, I haven't done this in a while, this reform stuff. I'm kind of rusty, but John 3.36, at the end of John 3.36, let me go to it real quick. I don't have a specific version, but I have what I have right here is the king, I have the King James here.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I can bother, I can follow you.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, so John 3 verse 36, he says, He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. So it says that he that believes on the Son has everlasting life. He that does not believe the Son shall not see life. Now, what what life is this the regeneration life you're thinking?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

What other life could there be?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Well, some some reformed thinkers they have.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

No, but I'm asking you, I'm asking you, I'm asking you what you think. What other life could there be? Forget the other form of reform guys.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Oh, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree. There's only one kind of life.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Right. So so the belief right they the belief that gives this life, does it come before or after the new birth?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I think belief is a condition.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Oh. So what are the conditions?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

The condition is to believe on Christ and He'll give you life.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

So you're saying that that condition happens before regeneration?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Well, as far as I'm aware, the the verse is clear. It says, Where is it at here? For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

And then in verse 18, and then in verse 18, he says, He that believes on him is not condemned, but that believes is condemned already. Or he that does not believe is condemned already. So what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah. That means if you don't believe, you're you're condemned.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

No, but it says you're condemned already. Yeah. You were already condemned. Yeah. Right. So this so the so the thing is, what I'm asking, there's a lot of noise back here where you are, I think. Is that is that from you?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Is there oh I oh yeah, let me turn it to my dryer, let me shut it off.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

All right. Oh, yeah, much better. So what I'm asking is this this this this this is what it comes down to to me. And and this and this is fine if we disagree on this, but this is what it comes down to to me. What enables what enables a person to believe? Is it something that is given to them by the Spirit of God or is it something that is realized through their own intellect?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

See, I I would see that as a false dilemma. I wouldn't see that as the options. I wouldn't see it as either this or either that. I think God's grace is required in order for a person to make the conditional belief actualized.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

How can it be conditional if it's but how can it be conditional if it's God's grace?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Well, I I think there because without the without the message, the gospel, Jesus dying on the cross and laying down his life, we can't believe. We're not capable of believing without this message. But I think once once this message is once this message is declared to you, I think God gives you a choice. You either want to believe it or you don't. And when someone doesn't believe, I don't hold God responsible for that.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So in Romans, and we we've been studying Romans. So in Romans 1, verse 16, Paul says that the gospel of grace, that is the power of God unto salvation. He says it is, it says it is that gospel of grace is the power, or the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, which means that the power that it's unto everyone.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

You didn't finish it though. It says unto everyone that believes.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I agree. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. You're right. It does say that. But it says that the gospel of Christ, right, is the power of God unto salvation. I believe that. Okay. So why is it called the power of God? There's something that it does that enables the believer, not provides an option. It is the power of God. So you're you're so you either have to say that the power of God through the preached gospel is only enabling an option, or it is granting salvation. So which is it?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Well, no, because even on your view, he's not just enabling them. When the gospel, when the power of the gospel comes to a chosen person, you know, who's picked from eternity past, it's not just he's enabling them. He's he's enabling them. Right. He's also causing their belief, too.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I agree. Right. There's he's so he's not in a on my view, he's enabling people.

unknown 8:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

My view is. No, my view is effectually enabling. So you say you're saying that Christ died. You're saying that Christ you would say that Christ died to grant an option. You believe that Christ died to put men in the same condition Adam was in, the ability to choose. I am saying no, Christ died to effectually redeem. He actually, by his death, bought back his people. He actually did that. It wasn't a condition. So I believe that.

unknown 9:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I believe it was finished on the cross. But here's the thing, though.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

When you're but what was finished?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Even the chosen people? Because if even the chosen Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead, brother. Go ahead. Even even the chosen people on your view are born children of wrath, and they're children of disobedience. On the Ephesians, I think it's one or two view.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

So e so even the elected are children of wrath at some point. So when when Jesus when Jesus died 2,000 years ago, you weren't saved when you were born. You were on your way to hell when you came out of your mother's womb.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Really?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

So there's a point in time where the sacrifice is actualized even on the reformed view.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Let me ask

Gospel Power And Atonement Applied

SPEAKER_00 10:07

you a question. And how do you how do you explain this in Romans 5.8? God commends his love toward us in that while we were sinners, Christ died for us. You would have to say that's universal. I don't see that. This is for us. So Paul is saying that for if, in verse, in verse 10, if we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. He says, we were reconciled to Christ by the death of his son. You're saying, well, no, that's not true. That only happens when you come to believe, even though Christ has already died.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Well, that's what he says in Romans 4. So, but if you were to j if you were just to just straight jump into Romans 5, it might look like it's being read that way. But when you go through 1, 2, 3, and 4, the context leads up to now he's speaking to people who have already been justified. Because he said in Romans 4, he says, For if Abraham were justified works, he hath wear of the glory, but not before God. What says the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. So what is it? So now we jump to Romans 5. So you're let's think therefore. By the time we get to Yeah, by the time we get to Romans 5, verse 10, when he says, For if when we, he's now he's rightfully speaking to people who've already been justified. So when Christ the audience, the audience here is believers.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

So let me ask you this question then. You said, and you just read it, you read it rightfully so, that Abraham's that Abraham's belief was counted to him for righteousness or reckoned. Same thing, right? I know you know the word of God. Reckoned and counted. So what does that mean? What does the reckoning mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Well, it means that when you believe in God, that God credits this belief on your behalf as righteousness. He accredits to you as righteousness. Right. It doesn't say for what says the scripture, God caused Abraham's belief and it was counted to him as righteousness. It doesn't say that. It says Abraham believed.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

So you think that Abraham believed and his belief was a work that was done outside of Christ, outside of God, but a work done by him on his own.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

No, no, it can't be done on his own. You that's why I said the gospel message is required for a person to be enabled.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

So what was the gospel? So what was the gospel that Abraham heard?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Well, God made the promise in I think Genesis, what was it, 15 or 17? He says, through you, all nations of the earth will be blessed. He didn't say some people from nations will be blessed. But how did Abraham through you all nations?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Right. So how did Abraham, how did he come to belief? So so the issue is the issue is this, it's simply this. Because the difference that we have, and it don't seem it doesn't seem like as far off as I would thought it would be. But what I'm asking, so what we have a fundamental disconnect is how does a person actually come to faith? Because when we say that we are saved by grace, and I'm sure you believe that we are saved by grace, I don't think I think we would agree there. We are saved by grace. Faith or grace is unmerited favor, as I'm sure we also agree there. And unmerited favor means it means that there's it built into the is built into that system the necessity of grace because there's nothing in us that is able to choose Christ. It is it is it is by his grace, and then by the grace, a faith that is imparted to us that enables us to believe. And that same impartation of grace is what Abraham received, because salvation has always been acquired by the same way for every saint that has ever believed old and new covenant. So the issue is that the issue is simply this. Is it an is it an infusion of the spirit that Christ promised to send when he left that is put into the heart of man that enables him to believe, or does a man believe and then it is by his belief that he receives the spirit of God? Which one is it? Because that's where the difference is. What mo what what enables the man to believe? Is it the Spirit of God in him, or is does he believe that in a that enables God to give him the Holy Spirit? Which one is it?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I I would look at that as a false dichotomy. So like like I said earlier, I don't think it's an A or B. I I do think you're onto something, though. I I do think both of them are true in a sense. But there it okay, so there's that moment. Okay, so say you and me are standing on a corner preaching the gospel, right? We're declaring the gospel. Jesus, you know, was buried, he died for our sins, he rose on the third day, you know, all that.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

So I'm under the impression that what what really bothers me, I don't have a problem with with saying that, you know, God gets the credit for our faith even when we choose to. So I like I I don't see I don't see faith as a meritorious work. It's not. I see faith, God is choosing to give his righteousness to those who choose faith.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Okay, okay, start right there. Start right there. First of all, nobody you you you just said we don't choose faith, but then you said that we don't. But we do. We don't choose faith. Faith is a gift. Paul makes that very clear. Faith is a gift.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

I don't think it's an I don't think it's an effectual gift.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

So you think faith is something that man can reject?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

That's where we disagree. Because how does a man believe without being given faith? So okay, so you're saying that every so you're saying everyone who does not have faith, you're saying that everyone who does not have faith is because of what? Is it because God was did not give it to them, or is it because they rejected it? Because he said it's a gift.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, that that's the thing. So when I read Ephesians 2, 8 through 9, when it says, For by grace are you saved through faith, not of yourself. It is the gift of God. There's a lot of ways to look at this in the Greek. So when you look at the word grace grace in Yes, when you look at the word Yes, so if what you were saying was true, if this was some irresistible grace, the word grace in the Greek there should be masculine. But the the grace and the faith both in that verse are feminine. So they're passive nouns, right? They're not active participles. So when it says, think of it this way, real quick, just try to see my view. So when it says, for by grace are you saved through faith, not of yourself. The not of yourself is referring back to the for by grace are you saved. So if you what you wait, hold on. If what you were saying was true, it should say this. It should say, for by grace, through faith are you saved. That's what it should say if you're right. But it says, for by grace are you saved through faith. Through faith comes after ye are ye are saved.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Right? Are you just saying I'm very keen? Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't. I disagree with you 100%. That's not what the Greek says. But here but here's the thing. I won't argue about that because I want to keep everybody who's listening to be able to understand what is being said. Because when people start throwing out the Greek, whatever, people get all into the into the into the weeds. Let me ask you this question, a verse which I know you're familiar with. Jesus

John 6 And Effectual Coming

SPEAKER_00 17:51

himself says, All that the Father has given me shall come to me. What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Now you're referring to John 6, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

637. He says, All that the Father has given me shall come to me, and him that comes to me, I will in no wise cast out.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, which verse does this start out? I want to check it out. Very quick.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

37. You can you can start anywhere you want. Verse 37.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Okay. Yeah, all that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. Yeah. So yeah. He says, and to him that come. So there's there's a caveat in there. So when he says, All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me, I will not cast out. So there's still there still is a coming to him happening. Now, the difference between you and me is that the coming to him is being effectuated.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

When did God give these people to Christ? This should be very easy, Brother Cam. This should be very easy. You're stretching. Listen, he says, Jesus himself says, all that the Father gave to me shall come to me. Not might, not that we'll contemplate, not upon condition. He said, All that the Father has given me shall come to me. So you please show me how that doesn't mean what it says. That's this should be very easy.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, no, it when you read verse six, it does seem to be sounding in this effectual way. I do understand. That's what it is. I've read I've read these verses so many times, and I just I can't come to this conclusion that you've come to because when I when I look at the holistic view of God and how it says God is love and stuff, it just really, really gets to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Do you mind if I give you another verse to look at?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Okay. So, real quick though, for for chapter six, this is for first of all, this is pre-crucifixion. Would you would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Of course it is, because Christ is talking, of course, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Okay, you're saying that it changed.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Are you saying that it changed after crucifixion?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Well, there is something that changes because it's not actualized yet. So even on your view, he's not the the work hasn't been finished yet. So you have all the things.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

But then please explain to me. Then please explain to me what Jesus Christ could possibly be saying while not trying to confuse people when he says, All that the Father gives to me shall come to me. Please, I mean, I really want to know, seriously. I really want to know how you know I know you're not I know you're not a dumb guy. So please explain to me. Explain to these people here listening what that means.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Okay, so verse 38, for I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me, and this is the Father's will which has sent me. Yep, that all of which he hath given me, I should lose nothing but should raise it up on the last day. So even okay, if we stop right there, if we just read 39, it says, and this is the Father's will which has sent me, that all which he has given to me, I shall lose nothing but should raise it up on the last day. So even on your view, belief isn't in this verse.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

You know that verse supports that you know that verse supports what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Even on your view, though, people have to believe in order to be saved, correct? Because you're not you're not given to the Father and then raised up without any.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

You can't listen.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Is that right though?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Am I right? Yeah, the verse that you the verse that you read is is very plain. This is the Father's will that sent me, that of all which he has given to me, I will lose none. So let me ask you a question. What does that mean? Does that mean that all people are saved, or that there's a certain group of people that are saved that the Father gave to Christ?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Well, the question would then become who are the ones that are given to the Father? Yeah, that's a good one. So what is that? Yes, so then the next verse says, and this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which sees the Son and believes on him may have everlasting. Life. Yeah. So there, I can tell you right now, there is never when you read belief passages, everlasting life always comes after it, but you never see someone being drawn and then after drawing happening.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Let me ask you a question, Brother Cam. Let me ask you a question. So when you say so, when it says here that all that the Father has given me shall come to me, it doesn't mean that. It means something different. So what I want to know is explain what they what he's talking about. What is Jesus saying when he says all that the Father has given me will come to me and I will not cast them out? They will not be cast out. They are going to be saved.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Well, it doesn't say that. Oh. It doesn't say they will be saved.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

So what does it mean when it so what does it mean?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

It's so if you go from verse 39 to 30.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

No, but I'm asking for verse 37. What does verse 40 37 mean?

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, all that the Father gives me shall come to me. In him that comes to me, there's still the coming. I said that earlier. I said, in him that comes to me, right? It doesn't say that all that the Father gives to me will come to me, and then it just stops. It says that there's also a coming. Right? Okay. All right. I mean, I'll take. Listen. I'm not I'm not saying I can come without him. I'm just saying that it's impossible. He's not gonna force, he's not gonna force us to.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

What I'm asking you, you you bring me all of this Greek stuff you're talking about and explain to me what verse 37 means. Because Christ makes it very clear. He makes it very clear. He says, All, all without exception, that the Father has given to me shall come to me. There's no way around this, brother. There's no way around it.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

There's no way Well, there's a verse in there's a verse in Timothy about where there's an all without exception in regards to 1 Timothy 2.15.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yes, I know what you're talking about. I know I remember what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

But then you So if you want to go, if you want to go with all without exception, no, but I'm asking you, I can I can ask I can address Timothy, I can address any verse you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

But what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to ask you is here, what does this mean? I don't want to do the whatabout isms. What does this mean? What Jesus means? I want to know what Jesus means in verse 37.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't just stop at 37, I keep reading to 40. I think you have to.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

You can read to Revelation, but how do you explain verse 37?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

I would take 37 in context with a continuation of the reading on toward onto verse 40, and then I would see that okay, the ones that the father is giving to the son are coming and believing. Now it's not done without him, right? But it's not being effectuated either. Because I see an issue with this effectuation.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

It sounds to me, he says that he says that all that the Father has given me shall come to me. That sounds pretty effectual.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Right, but then he says, and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Exactly. Those who the father gave him shall come to him, so those who come to him, he shall in no ways cast out. So please help me understand how you can see anything different. Now, your friend Hound of Heaven is saying, look at verse 45. So he's throwing in a help for you. What's verse 45 say?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, verse 45. It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned of the Father cometh unto him.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Have all been taught of God?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Every person has been taught of God. Every single person ever has been taught of God.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Not every person in the sense that you have to hear the gospel. So, first of all, that's why I was saying you have to take the crucifix into consideration.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Well, you see, is either every single is even is is either every service, every person is taught of God or they're not. So which one is it? Is it everyone taught of God or not?

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Okay, so I'll just I'll uh I'll answer that with a question. So even on your view, these people need the sacrifice of Christ, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Brother, let's forget my let's let's not talk about views.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

But I'm saying Jesus Jesus is still alive here, right? Does it matter if he's alive or dead? Yes, it does. Because these people that are being that are that the father's giving to him and coming and believing that their their sins have not been atoned for yet.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

That was before the family was. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Terry, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Terry, stop. All right, go ahead, brother.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Go ahead. Yeah, so even on your even on your view, these people's sins weren't atoned yet.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

So, so is that right? No, that's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Is that a yes?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

That's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Well, so they're already saved before without believing?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Every single no, nobody is saved without believing. But but the atonement of Christ, are you saying that the atonement of Christ did not apply to all those who died under the O covenant? How were they saved? If not by the atonement of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

But what about everybody that's saved after Christ, saved by the same atonement?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Well, he has to be crucified for those sins to be applied.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

That's what we agree. No, no, no. So, so no, Romans tells us that that God in the past time passed over the sins that were past to declare his righteousness at this time, which was his this time at the cross. So that one death, Christ. That's a different passage. If we're gonna say that the death of Christ did not atone for the death, I mean did not atone for the sins of all his people throughout all ages, then there's no point having a conversation. There is only one atonement for one salvation for all people who belong to him. It doesn't change after his resurrection or before.

Justification Timing And Double Jeopardy

SPEAKER_00 27:52

It's the same. I know that. Right, it's the same.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

But what what what I'm what I'm saying, even on your view, in John chapter 6, if we read verse 37, all that the Father gives to me will come to me, and him that cometh to me I will not cast out. Right. This person has not been justified yet.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Then how do you explain Romans 5 about being the about the ungodly inner sinners being justified by the death of Christ? When they were yet since when they were yet sinners. The gospel is that Christ justified the ungodly, meaning while they were ungodly, while they were sinners.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, but you you still had to believe, though. You weren't declared, you weren't declared righteous until the faith happened. No, whatever it means.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

No, that's not that's not true. You were declared righteous after crucifixion. That is wrong. No. Look at the scripture. It tells you clearly Robin Spot. Bro, you were born a child of wrath. I'm not saying that. I agree with you on that. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

How can you be a child of wrath and have your sins atoned for at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

The atonement of Christ was made once and for all time. Do we agree?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Are you suggesting that he atoned for sin? He atones for sin every single day that a person comes to faith? That it's over and over again? Okay, it was one time.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yes, the work on the cross was done one and done, but it's not applied on your behalf.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Right. For all people, for all time.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

In other words, the question becomes the quest, the quite the question becomes when is that sacrifice applied to you?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

The application, you're right. The application is different for you, not for God. It is when you find out that that that salvation is yours. The Christian, the believer who, and this is why you're your the difference why we have a problem is because you don't support election. I believe in election. I believe in election 100%. So everyone that Christ has died for, he died at one time for all the sins of all of his people, past, present, and future. And their salvation doesn't start again every time somebody comes to faith. No, it is the same salvation. When Christ said it was finished, that means there's nothing more for him to do, which means that justification for all the ungodly, even after his resurrection, was taken care of at council.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

So you were that's kind of a type of double jeopardy, though. So you're being justified twice. So when Jesus died. So no, check it out, though. I'm just trying to think logically here, though. Like I really want to understand your position. So if you're declared righteous when Jesus dies on the cross, and then you come to faith later and then you're justified again, wouldn't that be being No, you're not justified again.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

It's one no, you're not. It's not you it is I'm using your words. When you come to Christ, when you come to Christ, you are realizing something that has already been done to you because he is the one making you aware of it. See, this is the problem, because I believe in the unconditional election of God of those who are dead in their sin and trespasses. Without election, this won't make sense to you. It won't make sense to you.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

It's not just becoming aware of it. You're not just aware of your being righteous. You're not declared righteous until you believe.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

When you came to faith, was it not that God gave you the eyes to see and the ears to hear his truth? Was it God who gave that to you, or did you have it on your own?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I don't I don't think of it as an either-or. I think the God forms.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

But if we're gonna say it's not, if we're gonna say it's either or, it's not an either-or in any situation, then it will never come to a conclusion. In Matthew, let me ask you a question.

“He Shall Save His People”

SPEAKER_00 31:49

In Matthew 1, Mary and Joseph were told to name their child that was virgin born Jesus. And then he said the angel tells her why. For he shall save his people from their sins. So here's my question to you then, because it says he shall save his people from their sins. Are all people saved?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

No, because I think you're reading something into that that's not there. So when it says he shall what how about this?

SPEAKER_00 32:20

How about this, brother? You go read Matthew 121 and tell me what it says to you. Read Matthew 121. You tell me.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, yeah, I've I've read it before.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

You're telling me I'm reading something in there and I'm not. I read strictly.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah, when he no, when he says he shall save his people from their sins, it's not it's not telling us what the his people are. It's just saying his people. It doesn't say his people are the ones he chooses in the eternity past.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Okay, so can we can we agree that that it's not all people? Can we agree that it's can we agree that it is not all people?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Okay, so then what people is it?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Right, so when it says his people, right, it's not giving us, it's not giving us a clear explanation. You're a s you're assuming, you're assuming that his people means the ones chosen before birth.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

What do you think? No, you're too busy trying to combat Calvinism. So what I'm asking you is what does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Okay, so which verse is it here? I'm in Matthew 21. Matthew 121. Okay, Matthew 121. And he shall, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins. Yeah, I can believe that without having your view. He's he's gonna save his people from their sins. The question then becomes, who are the his people? Are they the ones who believe? Let me ask you.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Well, tell me what you're telling me what the Greek says.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I don't have the lexicon here. I have a Bible app. I'd have to close down this live to get into it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

But no, you don't you don't need you don't need to do that. So can we agree that it's got the Bible here? Can we agree that it's not all people without exception? Because it says what he shall be. Can we agree that it's not all people without exception?

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Oh, yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Okay, so it it so it is a protection.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

That would be that would be universalism. I don't believe in universalism.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Okay, so now we're getting somewhere.

Why Some Believe And Others Reject

SPEAKER_00 34:31

So if we don't believe in universalism, then how is it that anybody comes to faith? What's the difference between the ones who don't who reject Christ and the ones who accept Christ? What's the difference? And how do they get to that belief if salvation is by grace?

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Because I think that the gospel actually has the power to save people. So when you say that only a certain amount of people are gonna be saved, you're saying that it's incapable of saving the reprobate.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

I'm not saying I'm not saying a certain amount of people, you just said that. I asked you if this verse that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Does the gospel have an effect on the ones not chosen?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Of course it does.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Of course it does. It hardens people. Does it have Does it have an effect in a sense that they are morally culpable for making that decision? Or men are morally culpable. It seems to me that it's it's very odd that God would tell somebody to believe when he knows and he has certainly made them not able to. That seems dishonest.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Well, God has deemed all men under sin and said that there's none of us who can come to Christ. There's none of us who seeks after righteousness, none of us can.